What does Elon Musk say about free software?

What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Akira Urushibata]

I have seen the discussion here started by our friend Thomas Lord
titled "thank you elon musk."

I decided to start a new thread to discuss the issue from a different
dimension.

I have a question for free software supporters here:
What is Elon Musk's position regarding free software?
Has he made any notable statements which give us some idea?

---

Elon Musk considers himself a supporter of "free speech."  He believes
that Twitter does not respect free speech enough and desires to change
that.  Experts point out that this is easier said than done; numerous
articles have appeared in recent days examining realistic implications. 

When considering free speech the words of George Orwell come to mind:

 "Freedom of thought is the freedom to say that two and two make four.
  That granted, all else follows."

Free software means you have the freedom to share good a program which
add things correctly and you also have to freedom to correct a program
which doesn't.  Such freedom implies the right to discuss in public
problems one encounters, which is of course, freedom of speech.

One must also consider the fact that free software provides vital
functions which make social media platforms such as Twitter
possible.  So if Elon Musk likes free speech, he should be a supporter
of free software.  I wonder whether he explicitly states so.



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Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Thomas Lord]

You can probably infer his position on free software
if you begin by searching for the complete source
code for Tesla cars.

-t


On 2022-04-27 17:25, Akira Urushibata wrote:
> I have seen the discussion here started by our friend Thomas Lord
> titled "thank you elon musk."
> 
> I decided to start a new thread to discuss the issue from a different
> dimension.
> 
> I have a question for free software supporters here:
> What is Elon Musk's position regarding free software?
> Has he made any notable statements which give us some idea?
> 
> ---
> 
> Elon Musk considers himself a supporter of "free speech."  He believes
> that Twitter does not respect free speech enough and desires to change
> that.  Experts point out that this is easier said than done; numerous
> articles have appeared in recent days examining realistic implications.
> 
> When considering free speech the words of George Orwell come to mind:
> 
>  "Freedom of thought is the freedom to say that two and two make four.
>   That granted, all else follows."
> 
> Free software means you have the freedom to share good a program which
> add things correctly and you also have to freedom to correct a program
> which doesn't.  Such freedom implies the right to discuss in public
> problems one encounters, which is of course, freedom of speech.
> 
> One must also consider the fact that free software provides vital
> functions which make social media platforms such as Twitter
> possible.  So if Elon Musk likes free speech, he should be a supporter
> of free software.  I wonder whether he explicitly states so.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Yasuaki Kudo]

To me, Free Software also means direct action.   If you don't like twitter, just don't use it, make alternatives and enjoy all the benefits in Free Software, if one likes to use such platforms to begin with.

No offense but Mr. Musk's actions are pretty much irrelevant - just the latest spending spree on another vanity project? 😅

Twitter can just go to rot and there will be no tears shed - just good riddance!

-Yasu

> On Apr 29, 2022, at 04:13, Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:
> 
> You can probably infer his position on free software
> if you begin by searching for the complete source
> code for Tesla cars.
> 
> -t
> 
> 
>> On 2022-04-27 17:25, Akira Urushibata wrote:
>> I have seen the discussion here started by our friend Thomas Lord
>> titled "thank you elon musk."
>> I decided to start a new thread to discuss the issue from a different
>> dimension.
>> I have a question for free software supporters here:
>> What is Elon Musk's position regarding free software?
>> Has he made any notable statements which give us some idea?
>> ---
>> Elon Musk considers himself a supporter of "free speech."  He believes
>> that Twitter does not respect free speech enough and desires to change
>> that.  Experts point out that this is easier said than done; numerous
>> articles have appeared in recent days examining realistic implications.
>> When considering free speech the words of George Orwell come to mind:
>> "Freedom of thought is the freedom to say that two and two make four.
>>  That granted, all else follows."
>> Free software means you have the freedom to share good a program which
>> add things correctly and you also have to freedom to correct a program
>> which doesn't.  Such freedom implies the right to discuss in public
>> problems one encounters, which is of course, freedom of speech.
>> One must also consider the fact that free software provides vital
>> functions which make social media platforms such as Twitter
>> possible.  So if Elon Musk likes free speech, he should be a supporter
>> of free software.  I wonder whether he explicitly states so.
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Thomas Lord]

This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number
of people who use free software, and to help them
learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy
websites - is valuable.  Thus, it is the FSF's reason
for existence, writ large.

I think they will make excuses and stay sleepy at the
wheel, so to speak.

-t


On 2022-04-28 13:31, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:
> To me, Free Software also means direct action.   If you don't like
> twitter, just don't use it, make alternatives and enjoy all the
> benefits in Free Software, if one likes to use such platforms to begin
> with.
> 
> No offense but Mr. Musk's actions are pretty much irrelevant - just
> the latest spending spree on another vanity project? 😅
> 
> Twitter can just go to rot and there will be no tears shed - just good 
> riddance!
> 
> -Yasu
> 
>> On Apr 29, 2022, at 04:13, Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:
>> 
>> You can probably infer his position on free software
>> if you begin by searching for the complete source
>> code for Tesla cars.
>> 
>> -t
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2022-04-27 17:25, Akira Urushibata wrote:
>>> I have seen the discussion here started by our friend Thomas Lord
>>> titled "thank you elon musk."
>>> I decided to start a new thread to discuss the issue from a different
>>> dimension.
>>> I have a question for free software supporters here:
>>> What is Elon Musk's position regarding free software?
>>> Has he made any notable statements which give us some idea?
>>> ---
>>> Elon Musk considers himself a supporter of "free speech."  He 
>>> believes
>>> that Twitter does not respect free speech enough and desires to 
>>> change
>>> that.  Experts point out that this is easier said than done; numerous
>>> articles have appeared in recent days examining realistic 
>>> implications.
>>> When considering free speech the words of George Orwell come to mind:
>>> "Freedom of thought is the freedom to say that two and two make four.
>>>  That granted, all else follows."
>>> Free software means you have the freedom to share good a program 
>>> which
>>> add things correctly and you also have to freedom to correct a 
>>> program
>>> which doesn't.  Such freedom implies the right to discuss in public
>>> problems one encounters, which is of course, freedom of speech.
>>> One must also consider the fact that free software provides vital
>>> functions which make social media platforms such as Twitter
>>> possible.  So if Elon Musk likes free speech, he should be a 
>>> supporter
>>> of free software.  I wonder whether he explicitly states so.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Jean Louis]

* Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-04-29 17:49]:
> This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number
> of people who use free software, and to help them
> learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy
> websites - is valuable.  Thus, it is the FSF's reason
> for existence, writ large.
> 
> I think they will make excuses and stay sleepy at the
> wheel, so to speak.

I know that FSF has full hands of work.

You are free to contribute to it, or otherwise contribute to the cause
by your own initiatives.



Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Yasuaki Kudo]

I think Free Software licenses are great and the rest is just pure competition of merits.

We can reduce the activity to just being better than proprietary.

For this, we need to be really creative.  Just Replacing twitter with something else is one simple idea but certainly just a beginning of our brainstorming.

- Email is a dominant protocol but there are many service providers.   Can we do something similar for public messaging?   I have this mastodon thing and I have been a computer programmer for 30 years but I still can't figure out how it works at all.   The whole thing is very cryptic.  What's wrong here?

- It seems that certain public do want censorship according to their taste - how do we enable this?   This is a kind of feature that favors Free Software version because when it comes to any control or empowerment, the owners of proprietary systems insist they and only they have a leg up.

- Advertisements are very annoying.  Free Software versions can remove them?

- Can we create a 'crowd development' systems development model designed to work with thousands of software designers, specification writers, programmers and so on.

- Free Software movement seems quite weak on getting involved with the much larger community of the general public.  Can we do better?

etc.

Oh man, this gets me very excited!  

Monopoly systems becoming obsoleted by new paradigms are very normal around the computer circle - can Democratic Software movement do the same against the incumbent oligarchical systems? 😄

-Yasu



> On Apr 30, 2022, at 20:46, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> * Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-04-29 17:49]:
>> This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number
>> of people who use free software, and to help them
>> learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy
>> websites - is valuable.  Thus, it is the FSF's reason
>> for existence, writ large.
>> 
>> I think they will make excuses and stay sleepy at the
>> wheel, so to speak.
> 
> I know that FSF has full hands of work.
> 
> You are free to contribute to it, or otherwise contribute to the cause
> by your own initiatives.
> 
> 
> 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

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very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Thomas Lord]

You sparked what I think is a really good idea in my head.
Of course, I can't judge if it really is a really good idea. :-)

I think/guess many people discover that twitter is a fun
and informative way to track some subject of interest.
Four examples:

   - follow all your favorite Hollywood celebrities

   - follow all your favorite news outlets / journalists

   - subscribe to a list that is cultivated to carry the
     tweets of credible climate scientists and related
     climate advocates and experts

   - subscribe to a list of people actively making and
     posting about making music

Conversely, celebrities, climate scientists and activists,
etc. are all seeking to reach large, interested audiences.

AHA!  That can be assembled out of Mastodon with few or no
changes -- mostly just by using it wisely.  As someone said,
the UI might benefit from some loving enhancement and documentation.

Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure:

Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field
of interest.  It is good to make these redundant and distributed.
For example:

    + a Mastodon instance that solely hosts or mirrors
      credible climate scientists and activists etc.

    + more than one instance, generally mirrors, generally
      each member with accounts on several of them, to
      a avoid central points of censorship or other bad
      policies

Do the same for other areas of interest (e.g. celebrities).

Promote like made to people who it would be nice to sign up
for accounts there.   Make it easy for them to bridge their
accounts with Twitter

Simultaneously set up "participating spectator" instances that
make it very easy for any user to get an account, and follow
everyone on one or more subject area twitter.  Like, one click
and you follow everyone on the climate expert Mastodon network.
One click and you follow all the Hollywood accounts.  Or
users can cherry pick in the usual way from those services - make
it easy for them to find individual accounts there they might want.

Make as much of it free as possible.  Also let people divide up
operating costs for instances that need revenue, including hosting
costs, administration labor costs, and customer support labor costs.
(Don't go for outrageous wages, please.)

If done right, it should be far, far less noisy than the average
twitter timeline!

Here is an example of things that might make sense socially, in
how people use it.  Suppose one or several climate scientists
want to "take questions" from followers.  Make sure it is easy
for them to use some account to post an "AMA" (ask me anything)
and let people respond to the AMA.  Make it easy to screen and
select questions asked because otherwise... you know.  And make
it easy for them to create a clear timeline of questions asked
and answers offered by one or more of the participating experts.

That'd be information rich, low-distraction, naturally inclined
to be more civil and friendly twitter.

Also, the whole system would "scale down" to smaller local interest
groups that, even though they aren't celebrities, can set up
those hub instances for their local interest.

People can already do most of this hand, but an organized
effort, including recruitment of experts, and spending on promoting
the system, would be the kind of thing the FSF ought to be
rushing to do.

-t



On 2022-04-30 16:23, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:
> I think Free Software licenses are great and the rest is just pure
> competition of merits.
> 
> We can reduce the activity to just being better than proprietary.
> 
> For this, we need to be really creative.  Just Replacing twitter with
> something else is one simple idea but certainly just a beginning of
> our brainstorming.
> 
> - Email is a dominant protocol but there are many service providers.
> Can we do something similar for public messaging?   I have this
> mastodon thing and I have been a computer programmer for 30 years but
> I still can't figure out how it works at all.   The whole thing is
> very cryptic.  What's wrong here?
> 
> - It seems that certain public do want censorship according to their
> taste - how do we enable this?   This is a kind of feature that favors
> Free Software version because when it comes to any control or
> empowerment, the owners of proprietary systems insist they and only
> they have a leg up.
> 
> - Advertisements are very annoying.  Free Software versions can remove 
> them?
> 
> - Can we create a 'crowd development' systems development model
> designed to work with thousands of software designers, specification
> writers, programmers and so on.
> 
> - Free Software movement seems quite weak on getting involved with the
> much larger community of the general public.  Can we do better?
> 
> etc.
> 
> Oh man, this gets me very excited!
> 
> Monopoly systems becoming obsoleted by new paradigms are very normal
> around the computer circle - can Democratic Software movement do the
> same against the incumbent oligarchical systems? 😄
> 
> -Yasu
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 30, 2022, at 20:46, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>> 
>> * Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-04-29 17:49]:
>>> This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number
>>> of people who use free software, and to help them
>>> learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy
>>> websites - is valuable.  Thus, it is the FSF's reason
>>> for existence, writ large.
>>> 
>>> I think they will make excuses and stay sleepy at the
>>> wheel, so to speak.
>> 
>> I know that FSF has full hands of work.
>> 
>> You are free to contribute to it, or otherwise contribute to the cause
>> by your own initiatives.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Jean
>> 
>> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>> 
>> In support of Richard M. Stallman
>> https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Thomas Lord]

Is there some kind of hours-long technical glitch or am I now
being silently censored from the libreplanet-discuss mailing list?

-t


On 2022-05-01 15:23, Thomas Lord wrote:
> You sparked what I think is a really good idea in my head.
> Of course, I can't judge if it really is a really good idea. :-)
> 
> I think/guess many people discover that twitter is a fun
> and informative way to track some subject of interest.
> Four examples:
> 
>   - follow all your favorite Hollywood celebrities
> 
>   - follow all your favorite news outlets / journalists
> 
>   - subscribe to a list that is cultivated to carry the
>     tweets of credible climate scientists and related
>     climate advocates and experts
> 
>   - subscribe to a list of people actively making and
>     posting about making music
> 
> Conversely, celebrities, climate scientists and activists,
> etc. are all seeking to reach large, interested audiences.
> 
> AHA!  That can be assembled out of Mastodon with few or no
> changes -- mostly just by using it wisely.  As someone said,
> the UI might benefit from some loving enhancement and documentation.
> 
> Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure:
> 
> Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field
> of interest.  It is good to make these redundant and distributed.
> For example:
> 
>    + a Mastodon instance that solely hosts or mirrors
>      credible climate scientists and activists etc.
> 
>    + more than one instance, generally mirrors, generally
>      each member with accounts on several of them, to
>      a avoid central points of censorship or other bad
>      policies
> 
> Do the same for other areas of interest (e.g. celebrities).
> 
> Promote like made to people who it would be nice to sign up
> for accounts there.   Make it easy for them to bridge their
> accounts with Twitter
> 
> Simultaneously set up "participating spectator" instances that
> make it very easy for any user to get an account, and follow
> everyone on one or more subject area twitter.  Like, one click
> and you follow everyone on the climate expert Mastodon network.
> One click and you follow all the Hollywood accounts.  Or
> users can cherry pick in the usual way from those services - make
> it easy for them to find individual accounts there they might want.
> 
> Make as much of it free as possible.  Also let people divide up
> operating costs for instances that need revenue, including hosting
> costs, administration labor costs, and customer support labor costs.
> (Don't go for outrageous wages, please.)
> 
> If done right, it should be far, far less noisy than the average
> twitter timeline!
> 
> Here is an example of things that might make sense socially, in
> how people use it.  Suppose one or several climate scientists
> want to "take questions" from followers.  Make sure it is easy
> for them to use some account to post an "AMA" (ask me anything)
> and let people respond to the AMA.  Make it easy to screen and
> select questions asked because otherwise... you know.  And make
> it easy for them to create a clear timeline of questions asked
> and answers offered by one or more of the participating experts.
> 
> That'd be information rich, low-distraction, naturally inclined
> to be more civil and friendly twitter.
> 
> Also, the whole system would "scale down" to smaller local interest
> groups that, even though they aren't celebrities, can set up
> those hub instances for their local interest.
> 
> People can already do most of this hand, but an organized
> effort, including recruitment of experts, and spending on promoting
> the system, would be the kind of thing the FSF ought to be
> rushing to do.
> 
> -t
> 
> 
> 
> On 2022-04-30 16:23, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:
>> I think Free Software licenses are great and the rest is just pure
>> competition of merits.
>> 
>> We can reduce the activity to just being better than proprietary.
>> 
>> For this, we need to be really creative.  Just Replacing twitter with
>> something else is one simple idea but certainly just a beginning of
>> our brainstorming.
>> 
>> - Email is a dominant protocol but there are many service providers.
>> Can we do something similar for public messaging?   I have this
>> mastodon thing and I have been a computer programmer for 30 years but
>> I still can't figure out how it works at all.   The whole thing is
>> very cryptic.  What's wrong here?
>> 
>> - It seems that certain public do want censorship according to their
>> taste - how do we enable this?   This is a kind of feature that favors
>> Free Software version because when it comes to any control or
>> empowerment, the owners of proprietary systems insist they and only
>> they have a leg up.
>> 
>> - Advertisements are very annoying.  Free Software versions can remove 
>> them?
>> 
>> - Can we create a 'crowd development' systems development model
>> designed to work with thousands of software designers, specification
>> writers, programmers and so on.
>> 
>> - Free Software movement seems quite weak on getting involved with the
>> much larger community of the general public.  Can we do better?
>> 
>> etc.
>> 
>> Oh man, this gets me very excited!
>> 
>> Monopoly systems becoming obsoleted by new paradigms are very normal
>> around the computer circle - can Democratic Software movement do the
>> same against the incumbent oligarchical systems? 😄
>> 
>> -Yasu
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 30, 2022, at 20:46, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>>> 
>>> * Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-04-29 17:49]:
>>>> This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number
>>>> of people who use free software, and to help them
>>>> learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy
>>>> websites - is valuable.  Thus, it is the FSF's reason
>>>> for existence, writ large.
>>>> 
>>>> I think they will make excuses and stay sleepy at the
>>>> wheel, so to speak.
>>> 
>>> I know that FSF has full hands of work.
>>> 
>>> You are free to contribute to it, or otherwise contribute to the 
>>> cause
>>> by your own initiatives.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jean
>>> 
>>> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>>> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>>> 
>>> In support of Richard M. Stallman
>>> https://stallmansupport.org/

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libreplanet-discuss mailing list
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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Yasuaki Kudo]

> Is there some kind of hours-long technical glitch or am I now
> being silently censored from the libreplanet-discuss mailing list?

Not sure😅 , it seems a little delayed, nevertheless:

Although I really don't understand mastodon, your comment:
>> AHA!  That can be assembled out of Mastodon with few or no
>> changes -- mostly just by using it wisely. 

is close to what I am thinking.

It is neither the lack of money, time, whatever else. We can manage these if we are creative enough - what is lacking is the understanding this is mostly in our minds - if we so decide, we can make drastic changes.

I am a little inspired to 'hype up' something like the Digital Wild West.  The world is probably ripe for a radical overhaul to empower the people and dismantle the unaccountable 'powers' that be, and the starting point will be probably digital.  Just like all manufacturing businesses and even science now use computer simulations as the primary tool of development, our new economy will be bootstrapped with computers first, where ideas emerge and flow freely among the people who are all equals to each other.

This way, we don't have to quit our jobs or do anything radical and risky, and safely craft the new world from the comfort (or discomfort 😅) of where we are now.

Free Software, open protocols and all the rest can be at the core of this endeavor and twitter 'replacement' or something much better will be a worthy project 😄

-Yasu


> On May 2, 2022, at 14:11, Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:
> 
> Is there some kind of hours-long technical glitch or am I now
> being silently censored from the libreplanet-discuss mailing list?
> 
> -t
> 
> 
>> On 2022-05-01 15:23, Thomas Lord wrote:
>> You sparked what I think is a really good idea in my head.
>> Of course, I can't judge if it really is a really good idea. :-)
>> I think/guess many people discover that twitter is a fun
>> and informative way to track some subject of interest.
>> Four examples:
>>  - follow all your favorite Hollywood celebrities
>>  - follow all your favorite news outlets / journalists
>>  - subscribe to a list that is cultivated to carry the
>>    tweets of credible climate scientists and related
>>    climate advocates and experts
>>  - subscribe to a list of people actively making and
>>    posting about making music
>> Conversely, celebrities, climate scientists and activists,
>> etc. are all seeking to reach large, interested audiences.
>> AHA!  That can be assembled out of Mastodon with few or no
>> changes -- mostly just by using it wisely.  As someone said,
>> the UI might benefit from some loving enhancement and documentation.
>> Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure:
>> Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field
>> of interest.  It is good to make these redundant and distributed.
>> For example:
>>   + a Mastodon instance that solely hosts or mirrors
>>     credible climate scientists and activists etc.
>>   + more than one instance, generally mirrors, generally
>>     each member with accounts on several of them, to
>>     a avoid central points of censorship or other bad
>>     policies
>> Do the same for other areas of interest (e.g. celebrities).
>> Promote like made to people who it would be nice to sign up
>> for accounts there.   Make it easy for them to bridge their
>> accounts with Twitter
>> Simultaneously set up "participating spectator" instances that
>> make it very easy for any user to get an account, and follow
>> everyone on one or more subject area twitter.  Like, one click
>> and you follow everyone on the climate expert Mastodon network.
>> One click and you follow all the Hollywood accounts.  Or
>> users can cherry pick in the usual way from those services - make
>> it easy for them to find individual accounts there they might want.
>> Make as much of it free as possible.  Also let people divide up
>> operating costs for instances that need revenue, including hosting
>> costs, administration labor costs, and customer support labor costs.
>> (Don't go for outrageous wages, please.)
>> If done right, it should be far, far less noisy than the average
>> twitter timeline!
>> Here is an example of things that might make sense socially, in
>> how people use it.  Suppose one or several climate scientists
>> want to "take questions" from followers.  Make sure it is easy
>> for them to use some account to post an "AMA" (ask me anything)
>> and let people respond to the AMA.  Make it easy to screen and
>> select questions asked because otherwise... you know.  And make
>> it easy for them to create a clear timeline of questions asked
>> and answers offered by one or more of the participating experts.
>> That'd be information rich, low-distraction, naturally inclined
>> to be more civil and friendly twitter.
>> Also, the whole system would "scale down" to smaller local interest
>> groups that, even though they aren't celebrities, can set up
>> those hub instances for their local interest.
>> People can already do most of this hand, but an organized
>> effort, including recruitment of experts, and spending on promoting
>> the system, would be the kind of thing the FSF ought to be
>> rushing to do.
>> -t
>>> On 2022-04-30 16:23, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:
>>> I think Free Software licenses are great and the rest is just pure
>>> competition of merits.
>>> We can reduce the activity to just being better than proprietary.
>>> For this, we need to be really creative.  Just Replacing twitter with
>>> something else is one simple idea but certainly just a beginning of
>>> our brainstorming.
>>> - Email is a dominant protocol but there are many service providers.
>>> Can we do something similar for public messaging?   I have this
>>> mastodon thing and I have been a computer programmer for 30 years but
>>> I still can't figure out how it works at all.   The whole thing is
>>> very cryptic.  What's wrong here?
>>> - It seems that certain public do want censorship according to their
>>> taste - how do we enable this?   This is a kind of feature that favors
>>> Free Software version because when it comes to any control or
>>> empowerment, the owners of proprietary systems insist they and only
>>> they have a leg up.
>>> - Advertisements are very annoying.  Free Software versions can remove them?
>>> - Can we create a 'crowd development' systems development model
>>> designed to work with thousands of software designers, specification
>>> writers, programmers and so on.
>>> - Free Software movement seems quite weak on getting involved with the
>>> much larger community of the general public.  Can we do better?
>>> etc.
>>> Oh man, this gets me very excited!
>>> Monopoly systems becoming obsoleted by new paradigms are very normal
>>> around the computer circle - can Democratic Software movement do the
>>> same against the incumbent oligarchical systems? 😄
>>> -Yasu
>>>> On Apr 30, 2022, at 20:46, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>>>> * Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-04-29 17:49]:
>>>>> This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number
>>>>> of people who use free software, and to help them
>>>>> learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy
>>>>> websites - is valuable.  Thus, it is the FSF's reason
>>>>> for existence, writ large.
>>>>> I think they will make excuses and stay sleepy at the
>>>>> wheel, so to speak.
>>>> I know that FSF has full hands of work.
>>>> You are free to contribute to it, or otherwise contribute to the cause
>>>> by your own initiatives.
>>>> Jean
>>>> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>>>> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>>>> In support of Richard M. Stallman
>>>> https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2457 bytes --]

On 01/05/2022 23:23, Thomas Lord wrote:
> 
> You sparked what I think is a really good idea in my head.
> Of course, I can't judge if it really is a really good idea. :-)
> 
> I think/guess many people discover that twitter is a fun
> and informative way to track some subject of interest.
> Four examples:
> 
>    - follow all your favorite Hollywood celebrities
> 
>    - follow all your favorite news outlets / journalists
> 
>    - subscribe to a list that is cultivated to carry the
>      tweets of credible climate scientists and related
>      climate advocates and experts
> 
>    - subscribe to a list of people actively making and
>      posting about making music
> 
> Conversely, celebrities, climate scientists and activists,
> etc. are all seeking to reach large, interested audiences.
> 
> AHA!  That can be assembled out of Mastodon with few or no
> changes -- mostly just by using it wisely.  As someone said,
> the UI might benefit from some loving enhancement and documentation.
> 


So could we perhaps share our mastodon / fedi id's on this list so we 
can all perhaps start following each other, as much as possible.

@zleap@qoto.org

To start the ball rolling on this one.

I am trying to put together a series of posts on my blog about 
cybersecurity, but starting off with, introducing the BASH shell using a 
series of 8 videos from youtube that I feel are good for beginners.

I can use these at code club too,  and hopefully help raise awareness of 
free software at the same time.

https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton

With a link to the first video on May 4th

https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/cybersecurity-part-3

So trying to find resources and share them,  in a structured way.

Clearly this can lead to cybersecurity, but this series can also lead to 
a whole range of other areas,   such as developing free software, and 
developing secure applications / services which is still important.

Something that I may look in to doing, as I want to encourage people to 
learn BASH scripting, python, networking etc, first then look at 
cybersecurity if they still wish to, they may decide to branch out and 
contribute to free software development.

The way I am doing this, won't be to everyone's taste, BUT I am happy to 
link to alternatives and further resources,  so hopefully we can find a 
way to do complementary each other.

Paul

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Yasuaki Kudo]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3844 bytes --]

Just like the 'Occupy Wall St.', can we have continuous digital assemblies where ideas can be discussed all the time (people have different schedules and live in various timezones anyway) for the digital transformation we are seeking?

We can use something like:
https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/

Hot Topics that come to my mind 😄
- Share information of what Free Software is better already or becoming so than Proprietary
- Remove unaccountable black box services
- Empower the people, not constrain what they can do (I cannot even copy photos from my IPhone to Linux without special procedures  - 'what, do I need a special proprietary "application" just for that?')
- Take direct action, collectively design Free Software and Implement!
- Develop practical strategies for 'crowd development' to take advantage of thousands of protocol and software designers and programmers working on voluntary and part-time basis.  It can be combined with mutual education so people can voluntarily work on projects, train and be trained at the same time!

-Yasu

> On May 3, 2022, at 00:53, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> 
> On 01/05/2022 23:23, Thomas Lord wrote:
>> You sparked what I think is a really good idea in my head.
>> Of course, I can't judge if it really is a really good idea. :-)
>> I think/guess many people discover that twitter is a fun
>> and informative way to track some subject of interest.
>> Four examples:
>>   - follow all your favorite Hollywood celebrities
>>   - follow all your favorite news outlets / journalists
>>   - subscribe to a list that is cultivated to carry the
>>     tweets of credible climate scientists and related
>>     climate advocates and experts
>>   - subscribe to a list of people actively making and
>>     posting about making music
>> Conversely, celebrities, climate scientists and activists,
>> etc. are all seeking to reach large, interested audiences.
>> AHA!  That can be assembled out of Mastodon with few or no
>> changes -- mostly just by using it wisely.  As someone said,
>> the UI might benefit from some loving enhancement and documentation.
> 
> 
> So could we perhaps share our mastodon / fedi id's on this list so we can all perhaps start following each other, as much as possible.
> 
> @zleap@qoto.org
> 
> To start the ball rolling on this one.
> 
> I am trying to put together a series of posts on my blog about cybersecurity, but starting off with, introducing the BASH shell using a series of 8 videos from youtube that I feel are good for beginners.
> 
> I can use these at code club too,  and hopefully help raise awareness of free software at the same time.
> 
> https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton
> 
> With a link to the first video on May 4th
> 
> https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/cybersecurity-part-3
> 
> So trying to find resources and share them,  in a structured way.
> 
> Clearly this can lead to cybersecurity, but this series can also lead to a whole range of other areas,   such as developing free software, and developing secure applications / services which is still important.
> 
> Something that I may look in to doing, as I want to encourage people to learn BASH scripting, python, networking etc, first then look at cybersecurity if they still wish to, they may decide to branch out and contribute to free software development.
> 
> The way I am doing this, won't be to everyone's taste, BUT I am happy to link to alternatives and further resources,  so hopefully we can find a way to do complementary each other.
> 
> Paul
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3783 bytes --]

   Just like the 'Occupy Wall St.', can we have continuous digital
   assemblies where ideas can be discussed all the time (people have
   different schedules and live in various timezones anyway) for the
   digital transformation we are seeking?

   We can use something like:

   [1]https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/

   Hot Topics that come to my mind 😄

   - Share information of what Free Software is better already or becoming
   so than Proprietary

   - Remove unaccountable black box services

   - Empower the people, not constrain what they can do (I cannot even
   copy photos from my IPhone to Linux without special procedures  -
   'what, do I need a special proprietary "application" just for that?')

   - Take direct action, collectively design Free Software and Implement!

   - Develop practical strategies for 'crowd development' to take
   advantage of thousands of protocol and software designers and
   programmers working on voluntary and part-time basis.  It can be
   combined with mutual education so people can voluntarily work on
   projects, train and be trained at the same time!

   -Yasu

     On May 3, 2022, at 00:53, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
     <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

   On 01/05/2022 23:23, Thomas Lord wrote:

     You sparked what I think is a really good idea in my head.

     Of course, I can't judge if it really is a really good idea. :-)

     I think/guess many people discover that twitter is a fun

     and informative way to track some subject of interest.

     Four examples:

       - follow all your favorite Hollywood celebrities

       - follow all your favorite news outlets / journalists

       - subscribe to a list that is cultivated to carry the

         tweets of credible climate scientists and related

         climate advocates and experts

       - subscribe to a list of people actively making and

         posting about making music

     Conversely, celebrities, climate scientists and activists,

     etc. are all seeking to reach large, interested audiences.

     AHA!  That can be assembled out of Mastodon with few or no

     changes -- mostly just by using it wisely.  As someone said,

     the UI might benefit from some loving enhancement and documentation.

   So could we perhaps share our mastodon / fedi id's on this list so we
   can all perhaps start following each other, as much as possible.
   @zleap@qoto.org
   To start the ball rolling on this one.
   I am trying to put together a series of posts on my blog about
   cybersecurity, but starting off with, introducing the BASH shell using
   a series of 8 videos from youtube that I feel are good for beginners.
   I can use these at code club too,  and hopefully help raise awareness
   of free software at the same time.
   https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton
   With a link to the first video on May 4th
   https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/cybersecurity-part-3
   So trying to find resources and share them,  in a structured way.
   Clearly this can lead to cybersecurity, but this series can also lead
   to a whole range of other areas,   such as developing free software,
   and developing secure applications / services which is still important.
   Something that I may look in to doing, as I want to encourage people to
   learn BASH scripting, python, networking etc, first then look at
   cybersecurity if they still wish to, they may decide to branch out and
   contribute to free software development.
   The way I am doing this, won't be to everyone's taste, BUT I am happy
   to link to alternatives and further resources,  so hopefully we can
   find a way to do complementary each other.
   Paul

References

   1. https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/

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   _______________________________________________
   libreplanet-discuss mailing list
   libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1063 bytes --]



On 02/05/2022 22:42, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:
>     Just like the 'Occupy Wall St.', can we have continuous digital
>     assemblies where ideas can be discussed all the time (people have
>     different schedules and live in various timezones anyway) for the
>     digital transformation we are seeking?
> 
>     We can use something like:
> 
>     [1]https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/
> 
>     Hot Topics that come to my mind 😄

Isn't the idea of Occupy wall street to be visible to the general 
population?  We can use bbb to plan things and discuss but the more we 
do this as public facing the more effect it may have and also encourage 
others to get involved.

People join a conversation if it is emotive,  so we can strike a chord 
with people on privacy or what the software is doing in the background 
and hopefully make people stop, think and start to make developers 
accountable.

But also change our education system so that it is normal to put privacy 
before profits when developing apps / software.


Paul

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Yasuaki Kudo]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2588 bytes --]

Yes,  and I think it is way bigger than just privacy.   My mother told I must feel much freer when I learned driving.  The same thing goes to the computers and the Internet - while the computers can be programmed by anyone and people can upload anything to their heart's content on the Internet, the prevailing direction is so much the opposite.

The reversing of this trend will be thrilling, educational and world changing!   Yes, education will be the key - and it's not that I am suggesting people go back to university or anything formal (although nothing wrong with that)- we can educate each other!

Combining free software development and mutual education is something that we should do.

To give a specific example, I follow this interactive tutorial with my friend's daughter https://jscoq.github.io/ext/sf/lf/full/Basics.html  and this has been mutually beneficial.  Courses like these lend themselves very well to studying in pairs or groups.

If free software development can take advantage of something like this - implementing well specified software (even better if accompanied by proofs?) - maybe we can have a model of development that scales to thousands of programmers😄

-Yasu

> On May 3, 2022, at 17:02, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 02/05/2022 22:42, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:
>>    Just like the 'Occupy Wall St.', can we have continuous digital
>>    assemblies where ideas can be discussed all the time (people have
>>    different schedules and live in various timezones anyway) for the
>>    digital transformation we are seeking?
>>    We can use something like:
>>    [1]https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/
>>    Hot Topics that come to my mind 😄
> 
> Isn't the idea of Occupy wall street to be visible to the general population?  We can use bbb to plan things and discuss but the more we do this as public facing the more effect it may have and also encourage others to get involved.
> 
> People join a conversation if it is emotive,  so we can strike a chord with people on privacy or what the software is doing in the background and hopefully make people stop, think and start to make developers accountable.
> 
> But also change our education system so that it is normal to put privacy before profits when developing apps / software.
> 
> 
> Paul
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2727 bytes --]

   Yes,  and I think it is way bigger than just privacy.   My mother told
   I must feel much freer when I learned driving.  The same thing goes to
   the computers and the Internet - while the computers can be programmed
   by anyone and people can upload anything to their heart's content on
   the Internet, the prevailing direction is so much the opposite.

   The reversing of this trend will be thrilling, educational and world
   changing!   Yes, education will be the key - and it's not that I am
   suggesting people go back to university or anything formal (although
   nothing wrong with that)- we can educate each other!

   Combining free software development and mutual education is something
   that we should do.

   To give a specific example, I follow this interactive tutorial with my
   friend's
   daughter [1]https://jscoq.github.io/ext/sf/lf/full/Basics.html  and
   this has been mutually beneficial.  Courses like these lend themselves
   very well to studying in pairs or groups.

   If free software development can take advantage of something like this
   - implementing well specified software (even better if accompanied by
   proofs?) - maybe we can have a model of development that scales to
   thousands of programmers😄

   -Yasu

     On May 3, 2022, at 17:02, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
     <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

   
   On 02/05/2022 22:42, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:

        Just like the 'Occupy Wall St.', can we have continuous digital

        assemblies where ideas can be discussed all the time (people have

        different schedules and live in various timezones anyway) for the

        digital transformation we are seeking?

        We can use something like:

        [1]https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/

        Hot Topics that come to my mind 😄

   Isn't the idea of Occupy wall street to be visible to the general
   population?  We can use bbb to plan things and discuss but the more we
   do this as public facing the more effect it may have and also encourage
   others to get involved.
   People join a conversation if it is emotive,  so we can strike a chord
   with people on privacy or what the software is doing in the background
   and hopefully make people stop, think and start to make developers
   accountable.
   But also change our education system so that it is normal to put
   privacy before profits when developing apps / software.
   Paul
   _______________________________________________
   libreplanet-discuss mailing list
   libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. https://jscoq.github.io/ext/sf/lf/full/Basics.html

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss]

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Hi

The course mentioned below looks really good, thanks,  never heard of 
COQ though,  so the issue we may face is this isn't a mainstream 
language such as Python,  so why teach / promote it.  The point that 
misses is that the course is designed to teach functional programming as 
a skill, that can be transferred.

What we need are people who we can teach,  or at least help to learn, 
there are people out there,  but really difficult to reach out to.

Peer learning is a really good thing,  and it may be the way we need to 
go, as I can't see local providers changing from teaching windows, 
msoffice, and mainstream social media.

Different courses also suit different people, so it is easy to be put 
off when struggling, but moving to a different course provider can make 
a difference,  much easier if you follow a free route via coursera and 
decide that udemy can teach the same material in a way that better fits 
your style of learning.

Not everyone wants formal education, but learning informally can lead to 
a very high level of understanding.

Paul

On 03/05/2022 11:15, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:
> Yes,  and I think it is way bigger than just privacy.   My mother told I 
> must feel much freer when I learned driving.  The same thing goes to the 
> computers and the Internet - while the computers can be programmed by 
> anyone and people can upload anything to their heart's content on the 
> Internet, the prevailing direction is so much the opposite.
> 
> The reversing of this trend will be thrilling, educational and world 
> changing!   Yes, education will be the key - and it's not that I am 
> suggesting people go back to university or anything formal (although 
> nothing wrong with that)- we can educate each other!
> 
> Combining free software development and mutual education is something 
> that we should do.
> 
> To give a specific example, I follow this interactive tutorial with my 
> friend's daughter https://jscoq.github.io/ext/sf/lf/full/Basics.html 
> <https://jscoq.github.io/ext/sf/lf/full/Basics.html>  and this has been 
> mutually beneficial.  Courses like these lend themselves very well to 
> studying in pairs or groups.
> 
> If free software development can take advantage of something like this - 
> implementing well specified software (even better if accompanied by 
> proofs?) - maybe we can have a model of development that scales to 
> thousands of programmers😄
> 
> -Yasu
> 
>> On May 3, 2022, at 17:02, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss 
>> <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> On 02/05/2022 22:42, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:
>>>    Just like the 'Occupy Wall St.', can we have continuous digital
>>>    assemblies where ideas can be discussed all the time (people have
>>>    different schedules and live in various timezones anyway) for the
>>>    digital transformation we are seeking?
>>>    We can use something like:
>>>    [1]https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/
>>>    Hot Topics that come to my mind 😄
>>
>> Isn't the idea of Occupy wall street to be visible to the general 
>> population?  We can use bbb to plan things and discuss but the more we 
>> do this as public facing the more effect it may have and also 
>> encourage others to get involved.
>>
>> People join a conversation if it is emotive,  so we can strike a chord 
>> with people on privacy or what the software is doing in the background 
>> and hopefully make people stop, think and start to make developers 
>> accountable.
>>
>> But also change our education system so that it is normal to put 
>> privacy before profits when developing apps / software.
>>
>>
>> Paul
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 

-- 
--
Paul Sutton, Cert Cont Sci (Open)
https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/
OpenPGP : 4350 91C4 C8FB 681B 23A6 7944 8EA9 1B51 E27E 3D99

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Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Akira Urushibata]

Thomas Lord wrote:

> This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number
> of people who use free software, and to help them
> learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy
> websites - is valuable.  Thus, it is the FSF's reason
> for existence, writ large.

---

Pretending that there is a distinct line between Twitter users and
non-users distracts us from the anxieties certain people now harbor
and what we should be doing to assist them.

People who are officially registered, who have the right to send out
tweets, are definitely Twitter users.  However they are not the only
users.  Many of our contemporaries get information from tweets not
directly from the official Twitter site, but in embedded form in blogs
and media sites they visit.  We must not ignore the fact that people
who never sign up for the platform see the information conveyed in
this manner as reliable and valuable and are in a position to be
affected by policy changes.

Twitter has spawned derivative sites and services beyond count.
Numerous blogs are constructed around a collection of tweets by
others, a common subject being "tweets of the week."  Third-party
service sites offer conveniences such as keyword search and thread
unrolling, often alongside to and in competition with similar features
available in the official Twitter site.

News of Elon Musk's buyout plan has made people with a stake in these
sites and services noticeably anxious.  It appears to me that they are
now waking up to the fact that the tweets were "free", but that was of
the "free beer" variety rather than the "free thought" one.  It should
be possible to help them, not only by suggesting alternative platforms
but also by introducing them to free software philosophy.  Showing
sympathy toward people's worries is likely to work better than
promoting advocacy literature suggesting that they contain a good
remedy.

If we strike the iron while it is hot, our efforts will ultimately
succeed and people will show interest in free software.  We should be
prepared for the question: "What does Elon Musk say about this?"

---

Twitter No Longer Free: Elon Musk Will Charge for Features
https://earlygame.com/entertainment/elon-musk-twitter-quote-embed

Elon Musk suggests charging governments and corporations a
`slight cost' to use Twitter
https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/4/23056524/elon-musk-twitter-business-plans-charging-governments-corporations

---

No dose of free speech can overturn reality.  Many people consider
Elon Musk's bid to purchase Twitter a fait accompli, but stock prices
indicate otherwise.  Musk claims he is willing to purchase all
outstanding Twitter shares at $54.20.  When such offers are made
markets respond.  Recently Twitter shares are trading at around
$49.  This indicates that many investors are not totally confident
whether the offer will be honored. (*)

Investors are aware that Elon Musk needs to borrow money for the
purchase.  As borrowed money carries interest Musk must find some way
to make Twitter, once under his supervision, generate sufficient
profit for payment thereof.  We know that this is not simple: new
restrictions intended to make members pay more are likely to shove
them away into the welcoming arms of rival platforms.  Thus the market
people are watching attentively whether he can come up with a good
plan.  Musk has suggested reforms that may make certain people
anxious, but most investors are standing by for now without stating
faith in his designs with their money.

---

(*) Whenever a purchase offer is made which market participants take
as serious, the market price for that stock (or for that matter, any
commodity) rises to the buyer's declared price.  This is easy to
understand.  If someone (Elon Musk in this case) is soon to buy stock
you happen to own at a fixed, favorable price ($54.20), you would not
sell it to someone else at any lower price.



_______________________________________________
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Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Danny Spitzberg]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4624 bytes --]

Investors are aware that Twitter is a worthwhile investment- to wit,
https://twitter.com/pitdesi/status/1522222513404534788

Also, lenders are aware that Musk runs business that they depends on (eg
Tesla banks with Morgan Stanley).

So, if you follow the money, things become a bit more easy to explain.

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 5:26 PM Akira Urushibata <afu@wta.att.ne.jp> wrote:

> Thomas Lord wrote:
>
> > This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number
> > of people who use free software, and to help them
> > learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy
> > websites - is valuable.  Thus, it is the FSF's reason
> > for existence, writ large.
>
> ---
>
> Pretending that there is a distinct line between Twitter users and
> non-users distracts us from the anxieties certain people now harbor
> and what we should be doing to assist them.
>
> People who are officially registered, who have the right to send out
> tweets, are definitely Twitter users.  However they are not the only
> users.  Many of our contemporaries get information from tweets not
> directly from the official Twitter site, but in embedded form in blogs
> and media sites they visit.  We must not ignore the fact that people
> who never sign up for the platform see the information conveyed in
> this manner as reliable and valuable and are in a position to be
> affected by policy changes.
>
> Twitter has spawned derivative sites and services beyond count.
> Numerous blogs are constructed around a collection of tweets by
> others, a common subject being "tweets of the week."  Third-party
> service sites offer conveniences such as keyword search and thread
> unrolling, often alongside to and in competition with similar features
> available in the official Twitter site.
>
> News of Elon Musk's buyout plan has made people with a stake in these
> sites and services noticeably anxious.  It appears to me that they are
> now waking up to the fact that the tweets were "free", but that was of
> the "free beer" variety rather than the "free thought" one.  It should
> be possible to help them, not only by suggesting alternative platforms
> but also by introducing them to free software philosophy.  Showing
> sympathy toward people's worries is likely to work better than
> promoting advocacy literature suggesting that they contain a good
> remedy.
>
> If we strike the iron while it is hot, our efforts will ultimately
> succeed and people will show interest in free software.  We should be
> prepared for the question: "What does Elon Musk say about this?"
>
> ---
>
> Twitter No Longer Free: Elon Musk Will Charge for Features
> https://earlygame.com/entertainment/elon-musk-twitter-quote-embed
>
> Elon Musk suggests charging governments and corporations a
> `slight cost' to use Twitter
>
> https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/4/23056524/elon-musk-twitter-business-plans-charging-governments-corporations
>
> ---
>
> No dose of free speech can overturn reality.  Many people consider
> Elon Musk's bid to purchase Twitter a fait accompli, but stock prices
> indicate otherwise.  Musk claims he is willing to purchase all
> outstanding Twitter shares at $54.20.  When such offers are made
> markets respond.  Recently Twitter shares are trading at around
> $49.  This indicates that many investors are not totally confident
> whether the offer will be honored. (*)
>
> Investors are aware that Elon Musk needs to borrow money for the
> purchase.  As borrowed money carries interest Musk must find some way
> to make Twitter, once under his supervision, generate sufficient
> profit for payment thereof.  We know that this is not simple: new
> restrictions intended to make members pay more are likely to shove
> them away into the welcoming arms of rival platforms.  Thus the market
> people are watching attentively whether he can come up with a good
> plan.  Musk has suggested reforms that may make certain people
> anxious, but most investors are standing by for now without stating
> faith in his designs with their money.
>
> ---
>
> (*) Whenever a purchase offer is made which market participants take
> as serious, the market price for that stock (or for that matter, any
> commodity) rises to the buyer's declared price.  This is easy to
> understand.  If someone (Elon Musk in this case) is soon to buy stock
> you happen to own at a fixed, favorable price ($54.20), you would not
> sell it to someone else at any lower price.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 5327 bytes --]

   Investors are aware that Twitter is a worthwhile investment- to wit,
   [1]https://twitter.com/pitdesi/status/1522222513404534788
   Also, lenders are aware that Musk runs business that they depends on
   (eg Tesla banks with Morgan Stanley).

   So, if you follow the money, things become a bit more easy to explain.

   On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 5:26 PM Akira Urushibata <[2]afu@wta.att.ne.jp>
   wrote:

     Thomas Lord wrote:
     > This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number
     > of people who use free software, and to help them
     > learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy
     > websites - is valuable.  Thus, it is the FSF's reason
     > for existence, writ large.
     ---
     Pretending that there is a distinct line between Twitter users and
     non-users distracts us from the anxieties certain people now harbor
     and what we should be doing to assist them.
     People who are officially registered, who have the right to send out
     tweets, are definitely Twitter users.  However they are not the only
     users.  Many of our contemporaries get information from tweets not
     directly from the official Twitter site, but in embedded form in
     blogs
     and media sites they visit.  We must not ignore the fact that people
     who never sign up for the platform see the information conveyed in
     this manner as reliable and valuable and are in a position to be
     affected by policy changes.
     Twitter has spawned derivative sites and services beyond count.
     Numerous blogs are constructed around a collection of tweets by
     others, a common subject being "tweets of the week."  Third-party
     service sites offer conveniences such as keyword search and thread
     unrolling, often alongside to and in competition with similar
     features
     available in the official Twitter site.
     News of Elon Musk's buyout plan has made people with a stake in
     these
     sites and services noticeably anxious.  It appears to me that they
     are
     now waking up to the fact that the tweets were "free", but that was
     of
     the "free beer" variety rather than the "free thought" one.  It
     should
     be possible to help them, not only by suggesting alternative
     platforms
     but also by introducing them to free software philosophy.  Showing
     sympathy toward people's worries is likely to work better than
     promoting advocacy literature suggesting that they contain a good
     remedy.
     If we strike the iron while it is hot, our efforts will ultimately
     succeed and people will show interest in free software.  We should
     be
     prepared for the question: "What does Elon Musk say about this?"
     ---
     Twitter No Longer Free: Elon Musk Will Charge for Features
     [3]https://earlygame.com/entertainment/elon-musk-twitter-quote-embed
     Elon Musk suggests charging governments and corporations a
     `slight cost' to use Twitter
     [4]https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/4/23056524/elon-musk-twitter-busi
     ness-plans-charging-governments-corporations
     ---
     No dose of free speech can overturn reality.  Many people consider
     Elon Musk's bid to purchase Twitter a fait accompli, but stock
     prices
     indicate otherwise.  Musk claims he is willing to purchase all
     outstanding Twitter shares at $54.20.  When such offers are made
     markets respond.  Recently Twitter shares are trading at around
     $49.  This indicates that many investors are not totally confident
     whether the offer will be honored. (*)
     Investors are aware that Elon Musk needs to borrow money for the
     purchase.  As borrowed money carries interest Musk must find some
     way
     to make Twitter, once under his supervision, generate sufficient
     profit for payment thereof.  We know that this is not simple: new
     restrictions intended to make members pay more are likely to shove
     them away into the welcoming arms of rival platforms.  Thus the
     market
     people are watching attentively whether he can come up with a good
     plan.  Musk has suggested reforms that may make certain people
     anxious, but most investors are standing by for now without stating
     faith in his designs with their money.
     ---
     (*) Whenever a purchase offer is made which market participants take
     as serious, the market price for that stock (or for that matter, any
     commodity) rises to the buyer's declared price.  This is easy to
     understand.  If someone (Elon Musk in this case) is soon to buy
     stock
     you happen to own at a fixed, favorable price ($54.20), you would
     not
     sell it to someone else at any lower price.
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [5]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [6]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s

References

   1. https://twitter.com/pitdesi/status/1522222513404534788
   2. mailto:afu@wta.att.ne.jp
   3. https://earlygame.com/entertainment/elon-musk-twitter-quote-embed
   4. https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/4/23056524/elon-musk-twitter-business-plans-charging-governments-corporations
   5. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   6. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 184 bytes --]

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Il 02/05/22 01:23, Thomas Lord ha scritto:
> 
> Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure:
> 
> Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field
> of interest.  It is good to make these redundant and distributed.

This already happens, indeed.

An example was newsbots.eu:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220408204643/https://newsbots.eu/@admin

More recently I set up one such thematic instance for EU officers: 
https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108077919947708699 . (Although frankly I 
would probably not have bothered, if I had known of plans for the 
official instance https://social.network.europa.eu/explore , given 
complications: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108222742095791966 .)

Federico

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Thomas Lord]

All the more reason why this is a valuable idea
for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading
education and real world use of libre software systems.

Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do
which is entirely unclear from their web site.

This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point
city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where
they could quickly learn about software freedom and about
available software -- and I discovered that nothing on
the FSF web site was at all adequate to this.

-t


On 2022-05-11 03:46, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> Il 02/05/22 01:23, Thomas Lord ha scritto:
>> 
>> Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure:
>> 
>> Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field
>> of interest.  It is good to make these redundant and distributed.
> 
> This already happens, indeed.
> 
> An example was newsbots.eu:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20220408204643/https://newsbots.eu/@admin
> 
> More recently I set up one such thematic instance for EU officers:
> https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108077919947708699 . (Although frankly
> I would probably not have bothered, if I had known of plans for the
> official instance https://social.network.europa.eu/explore , given
> complications: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108222742095791966 .)
> 
> Federico
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Yasuaki Kudo]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3525 bytes --]

Oh man, I am so inspired to do this thing that I have been proposing for some time, including most recent discussions with friends around me!

Together, we can start to compile a Free Software collection for the New (Ultimately Non-Exchanged-Based) Economy based on Commons.

https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk
Around 3:20 time mark, Friede, an economist, mentions the Free Software model.

In more practical terms, I am trying to create with collaborators a Software Distribution (my personal preference would be as a GNU Guix channel) for worker cooperatives (companies based on one-worker-one vote instead of one-share-one-vote) that will include:

- Free Software specifically written for the cooperatives. (say, a shared application framework) This could be just a pointer, instead of outright inclusion of code, as done in Guix/Nix
- Knowhow documents
-  'Business directory' for worker cooperatives
- Integration tests for components that worker cooperatives wish to combine
- Regular Office Hours for co-education and knowhow exchange 

Currently, many worker cooperatives in the ICT sector take software development contracts that may go like - "Hiring a developer with Experience in React and MonoDB"...   This kind of contract is solely based on monetary exchange and it does not add much to the Commons other than just applying some open source software (almost in forms only and not in spirit)

Instead, what we want to do is to develop a whole array of expertise in which the cooperative take the center stage - anyone who likes the system in this ecosystem will say, this Free Software system comes from that circle of worker cooperatives, let's hire someone from there!

Another video clip I would like to share, around 17:00 mark  https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM

If you are also inspired, let's work together!

-Yasu


> On May 12, 2022, at 05:05, Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:
> All the more reason why this is a valuable idea
> for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading
> education and real world use of libre software systems.
> 
> Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do
> which is entirely unclear from their web site.
> 
> This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point
> city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where
> they could quickly learn about software freedom and about
> available software -- and I discovered that nothing on
> the FSF web site was at all adequate to this.
> 
> -t
> 
> 
> On 2022-05-11 03:46, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
>> Il 02/05/22 01:23, Thomas Lord ha scritto:
>>> Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure:
>>> Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field
>>> of interest.  It is good to make these redundant and distributed.
>> This already happens, indeed.
>> An example was newsbots.eu:
>> https://web.archive.org/web/20220408204643/https://newsbots.eu/@admin
>> More recently I set up one such thematic instance for EU officers:
>> https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108077919947708699 . (Although frankly
>> I would probably not have bothered, if I had known of plans for the
>> official instance https://social.network.europa.eu/explore , given
>> complications: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108222742095791966 .)
>> Federico
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 3717 bytes --]

   Oh man, I am so inspired to do this thing that I have been proposing
   for some time, including most recent discussions with friends around
   me!

   Together, we can start to compile a Free Software collection for the
   New (Ultimately Non-Exchanged-Based) Economy based on Commons.

   [1]https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk

   Around 3:20 time mark, Friede, an economist, mentions the Free Software
   model.

   In more practical terms, I am trying to create with collaborators a
   Software Distribution (my personal preference would be as a GNU Guix
   channel) for worker cooperatives (companies based on one-worker-one
   vote instead of one-share-one-vote) that will include:

   - Free Software specifically written for the cooperatives. (say, a
   shared application framework) This could be just a pointer, instead of
   outright inclusion of code, as done in Guix/Nix

   - Knowhow documents

   -  'Business directory' for worker cooperatives

   - Integration tests for components that worker cooperatives wish to
   combine

   - Regular Office Hours for co-education and knowhow exchange

   Currently, many worker cooperatives in the ICT sector take software
   development contracts that may go like - "Hiring a developer with
   Experience in React and MonoDB"...   This kind of contract is solely
   based on monetary exchange and it does not add much to the Commons
   other than just applying some open source software (almost in forms
   only and not in spirit)

   Instead, what we want to do is to develop a whole array of expertise in
   which the cooperative take the center stage - anyone who likes the
   system in this ecosystem will say, this Free Software system comes from
   that circle of worker cooperatives, let's hire someone from there!

   Another video clip I would like to share, around 17:00 mark
   [2]https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM

   If you are also inspired, let's work together!

   -Yasu

     On May 12, 2022, at 05:05, Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:

   All the more reason why this is a valuable idea
   for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading
   education and real world use of libre software systems.
   Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do
   which is entirely unclear from their web site.
   This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point
   city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where
   they could quickly learn about software freedom and about
   available software -- and I discovered that nothing on
   the FSF web site was at all adequate to this.
   -t
   On 2022-05-11 03:46, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

     Il 02/05/22 01:23, Thomas Lord ha scritto:

     Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure:

     Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field

     of interest.  It is good to make these redundant and distributed.

     This already happens, indeed.

     An example was newsbots.eu:

     https://web.archive.org/web/20220408204643/https://newsbots.eu/@admi
     n

     More recently I set up one such thematic instance for EU officers:

     https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108077919947708699 . (Although
     frankly

     I would probably not have bothered, if I had known of plans for the

     official instance https://social.network.europa.eu/explore , given

     complications: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108222742095791966 .)

     Federico

     _______________________________________________

     libreplanet-discuss mailing list

     libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

     https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk
   2. https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 184 bytes --]

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Yasuaki Kudo]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3956 bytes --]

Sorry, in retrospect, maybe I should have created a new thread - but really what I am trying to do is to put our frustration energy, as evident in this whole twitter nonsense, to a realistic, practical project and take the matter to our own hands! 😄

> On May 12, 2022, at 07:42, Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Oh man, I am so inspired to do this thing that I have been proposing for some time, including most recent discussions with friends around me!
> 
> Together, we can start to compile a Free Software collection for the New (Ultimately Non-Exchanged-Based) Economy based on Commons.
> 
> https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk
> Around 3:20 time mark, Friede, an economist, mentions the Free Software model.
> 
> In more practical terms, I am trying to create with collaborators a Software Distribution (my personal preference would be as a GNU Guix channel) for worker cooperatives (companies based on one-worker-one vote instead of one-share-one-vote) that will include:
> 
> - Free Software specifically written for the cooperatives. (say, a shared application framework) This could be just a pointer, instead of outright inclusion of code, as done in Guix/Nix
> - Knowhow documents
> -  'Business directory' for worker cooperatives
> - Integration tests for components that worker cooperatives wish to combine
> - Regular Office Hours for co-education and knowhow exchange 
> 
> Currently, many worker cooperatives in the ICT sector take software development contracts that may go like - "Hiring a developer with Experience in React and MonoDB"...   This kind of contract is solely based on monetary exchange and it does not add much to the Commons other than just applying some open source software (almost in forms only and not in spirit)
> 
> Instead, what we want to do is to develop a whole array of expertise in which the cooperative take the center stage - anyone who likes the system in this ecosystem will say, this Free Software system comes from that circle of worker cooperatives, let's hire someone from there!
> 
> Another video clip I would like to share, around 17:00 mark  https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM
> 
> If you are also inspired, let's work together!
> 
> -Yasu
> 
> 
>>> On May 12, 2022, at 05:05, Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:
>>> 
>> All the more reason why this is a valuable idea
>> for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading
>> education and real world use of libre software systems.
>> 
>> Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do
>> which is entirely unclear from their web site.
>> 
>> This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point
>> city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where
>> they could quickly learn about software freedom and about
>> available software -- and I discovered that nothing on
>> the FSF web site was at all adequate to this.
>> 
>> -t
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2022-05-11 03:46, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
>>> Il 02/05/22 01:23, Thomas Lord ha scritto:
>>>> Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure:
>>>> Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field
>>>> of interest.  It is good to make these redundant and distributed.
>>> This already happens, indeed.
>>> An example was newsbots.eu:
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20220408204643/https://newsbots.eu/@admin
>>> More recently I set up one such thematic instance for EU officers:
>>> https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108077919947708699 . (Although frankly
>>> I would probably not have bothered, if I had known of plans for the
>>> official instance https://social.network.europa.eu/explore , given
>>> complications: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108222742095791966 .)
>>> Federico
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 4063 bytes --]

   Sorry, in retrospect, maybe I should have created a new thread - but
   really what I am trying to do is to put our frustration energy, as
   evident in this whole twitter nonsense, to a realistic, practical
   project and take the matter to our own hands! 😄

     On May 12, 2022, at 07:42, Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:

   

   Oh man, I am so inspired to do this thing that I have been proposing
   for some time, including most recent discussions with friends around
   me!

   Together, we can start to compile a Free Software collection for the
   New (Ultimately Non-Exchanged-Based) Economy based on Commons.

   [1]https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk

   Around 3:20 time mark, Friede, an economist, mentions the Free Software
   model.

   In more practical terms, I am trying to create with collaborators a
   Software Distribution (my personal preference would be as a GNU Guix
   channel) for worker cooperatives (companies based on one-worker-one
   vote instead of one-share-one-vote) that will include:

   - Free Software specifically written for the cooperatives. (say, a
   shared application framework) This could be just a pointer, instead of
   outright inclusion of code, as done in Guix/Nix

   - Knowhow documents

   -  'Business directory' for worker cooperatives

   - Integration tests for components that worker cooperatives wish to
   combine

   - Regular Office Hours for co-education and knowhow exchange

   Currently, many worker cooperatives in the ICT sector take software
   development contracts that may go like - "Hiring a developer with
   Experience in React and MonoDB"...   This kind of contract is solely
   based on monetary exchange and it does not add much to the Commons
   other than just applying some open source software (almost in forms
   only and not in spirit)

   Instead, what we want to do is to develop a whole array of expertise in
   which the cooperative take the center stage - anyone who likes the
   system in this ecosystem will say, this Free Software system comes from
   that circle of worker cooperatives, let's hire someone from there!

   Another video clip I would like to share, around 17:00 mark
   [2]https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM

   If you are also inspired, let's work together!

   -Yasu

     On May 12, 2022, at 05:05, Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:

   All the more reason why this is a valuable idea
   for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading
   education and real world use of libre software systems.
   Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do
   which is entirely unclear from their web site.
   This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point
   city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where
   they could quickly learn about software freedom and about
   available software -- and I discovered that nothing on
   the FSF web site was at all adequate to this.
   -t
   On 2022-05-11 03:46, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

     Il 02/05/22 01:23, Thomas Lord ha scritto:

     Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure:

     Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field

     of interest.  It is good to make these redundant and distributed.

     This already happens, indeed.

     An example was newsbots.eu:

     https://web.archive.org/web/20220408204643/https://newsbots.eu/@admi
     n

     More recently I set up one such thematic instance for EU officers:

     https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108077919947708699 . (Although
     frankly

     I would probably not have bothered, if I had known of plans for the

     official instance https://social.network.europa.eu/explore , given

     complications: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108222742095791966 .)

     Federico

     _______________________________________________

     libreplanet-discuss mailing list

     libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

     https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk
   2. https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 184 bytes --]

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Jean Louis]

* Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-05-12 03:26]:
> All the more reason why this is a valuable idea
> for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading
> education and real world use of libre software systems.
> 
> Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do
> which is entirely unclear from their web site.
> 
> This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point
> city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where
> they could quickly learn about software freedom and about
> available software -- and I discovered that nothing on
> the FSF web site was at all adequate to this.

Thomas, you again spread Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts - FUD. I
cannot take your statements seriously.

https://www.fsf.org/ -- it is very clear what FSF does straight from
their website. 



Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Thomas Lord]

Jean,

> Thomas, you again spread Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts - FUD. I
> cannot take your statements seriously.

That's fine.

I am curious if you think that the ~40 year old Free Software Movement
is doing an effective job of spreading the actual practice of software
freedom, and even the awareness of the option and what it means for
human freedom?

And if I want to point busy city officials or others who
could benefit from changing their practices to some web page
that will help them help themselves with that, smoothly
and efficiently, what page would you suggest?  What educational
materials will help someone like that?

How will potential users find those materials if I say simply
"check out fsf.org"?

What steps has FSF taken in recent decades that have helped
with this kind of problem?  Is the "free software ladder"
concept meant to do this (that isn't my understanding of it
so far)?

Similarly, say, a college student not in
computer science or anything close to that?  or a
professor who may be tempted to require students
to use unfree software -- where can they quickly and
easily check for a better option?

-t



On 2022-05-11 20:44, Jean Louis wrote:
> * Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-05-12 03:26]:
>> All the more reason why this is a valuable idea
>> for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading
>> education and real world use of libre software systems.
>> 
>> Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do
>> which is entirely unclear from their web site.
>> 
>> This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point
>> city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where
>> they could quickly learn about software freedom and about
>> available software -- and I discovered that nothing on
>> the FSF web site was at all adequate to this.
> 
> Thomas, you again spread Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts - FUD. I
> cannot take your statements seriously.
> 
> https://www.fsf.org/ -- it is very clear what FSF does straight from
> their website.
> 
> 
> 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

_______________________________________________
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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[p_newsletters/libreplanet--- via libreplanet-discuss]

I somewhat agree with Thomas.

I myself have been interested about freedom of software almost 15 years. This interests me a lot and I found myself numerous times spending plenty of hours in fsf.org just going deep in the rabbit hole. However, this can't be expected from a "non-tech" user, a.k.a the large part of the population, who indeed they'd be interested about regaining freedom but are greeted with a comprehensive and overwhelming amount of info.

I talk about fs to many of my peers and then I refer them to fsf.org to learn more. The result, lack of engagement and retention from my peers with the site. To me this isn't a problem of the user.

My take is that, fsf.org conveys a lot of info, but not effectively. Less is more, even in the education field. Notice that I am not suggesting deleting info, but better summarize and display.

I think fsf.org could benefit from better UX design.

In contradiction with my text, for me the fsf's page is great. But again, I am a tech-interested person and don't represent the larger amount of internet users.


------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, May 12th, 2022 at 18:45, Thomas Lord - lord at basiscraft.com <awrlcxwigpuchsoowgvvsnzs@simplelogin.co> wrote:


> Jean,
>
> > Thomas, you again spread Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts - FUD. I
> > cannot take your statements seriously.
>
>
> That's fine.
>
> I am curious if you think that the ~40 year old Free Software Movement
> is doing an effective job of spreading the actual practice of software
> freedom, and even the awareness of the option and what it means for
> human freedom?
>
> And if I want to point busy city officials or others who
> could benefit from changing their practices to some web page
> that will help them help themselves with that, smoothly
> and efficiently, what page would you suggest? What educational
> materials will help someone like that?
>
> How will potential users find those materials if I say simply
> "check out fsf.org"?
>
> What steps has FSF taken in recent decades that have helped
> with this kind of problem? Is the "free software ladder"
> concept meant to do this (that isn't my understanding of it
> so far)?
>
> Similarly, say, a college student not in
> computer science or anything close to that? or a
> professor who may be tempted to require students
> to use unfree software -- where can they quickly and
> easily check for a better option?
>
> -t
>
>
>
> On 2022-05-11 20:44, Jean Louis wrote:
>
> > * Thomas Lord lord@basiscraft.com [2022-05-12 03:26]:
> >
> > > All the more reason why this is a valuable idea
> > > for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading
> > > education and real world use of libre software systems.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do
> > > which is entirely unclear from their web site.
> > >
> > > This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point
> > > city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where
> > > they could quickly learn about software freedom and about
> > > available software -- and I discovered that nothing on
> > > the FSF web site was at all adequate to this.
> >
> > Thomas, you again spread Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts - FUD. I
> > cannot take your statements seriously.
> >
> > https://www.fsf.org/ -- it is very clear what FSF does straight from
> > their website.
> >
> > Jean
> >
> > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> >
> > In support of Richard M. Stallman
> > https://stallmansupport.org/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss


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Please start a new thread for the "specific project proposal"

[Akira Urushibata]

Please consider starting a new thread, or new threads, and make sure
they are appropriately titled.

The discussion has veered far away from the original subject.

I believe that the new project proposal and the discussion about
shortcomings in the official FSF site are important.

Please consider how readers would feel when they witness discussions
going on irrelevant to the header title.  Quite surely some, if not
most, of them would consider the thread as an inferior source of
information.

A new service intended as an alternative to Twitter won't get far if
it earns the reputation of being full of off-topic messages.

When discussing improvements to the FSF site, whether the documents
there are appropriate and to the point would be an important
consideration.

Please understand that many people are frustrated with so called
"click-baits" on YouTube and elsewhere: material that proclaims
something in the title while failing to get down to that in the body.
There are too many boys crying wolf out there.  If you are identified
as one their kind, your reputation as will be tarnished.



_______________________________________________
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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Thomas Lord]

And I wish to add that I think I offend some FSF
fans by saying I think the underlying cause is that
the FSF has somehow lost sight of two critical goals:

   1. Education for the general public.

   2. Promoting (through action, through help) far greater
      intentional, direct use of libre software (including
      the more widespread exercise of all four freedoms --
      not merely the recitation of why they are good).

So I see something like this need of some people to break
free of twitter and wonder why the free software movement isn't
all over such opportunities, with resources, and coordination,
and support.

And then I look at the FSF, who I think should be working on that,
and get depressed about "whatever happened to the free software 
movement"?

-t



On 2022-05-12 12:21, p_newsletters/libreplanet--- via 
libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> I somewhat agree with Thomas.
> 
> I myself have been interested about freedom of software almost 15
> years. This interests me a lot and I found myself numerous times
> spending plenty of hours in fsf.org just going deep in the rabbit
> hole. However, this can't be expected from a "non-tech" user, a.k.a
> the large part of the population, who indeed they'd be interested
> about regaining freedom but are greeted with a comprehensive and
> overwhelming amount of info.
> 
> I talk about fs to many of my peers and then I refer them to fsf.org
> to learn more. The result, lack of engagement and retention from my
> peers with the site. To me this isn't a problem of the user.
> 
> My take is that, fsf.org conveys a lot of info, but not effectively.
> Less is more, even in the education field. Notice that I am not
> suggesting deleting info, but better summarize and display.
> 
> I think fsf.org could benefit from better UX design.
> 
> In contradiction with my text, for me the fsf's page is great. But
> again, I am a tech-interested person and don't represent the larger
> amount of internet users.
> 
> 
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Thursday, May 12th, 2022 at 18:45, Thomas Lord - lord at
> basiscraft.com <awrlcxwigpuchsoowgvvsnzs@simplelogin.co> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Jean,
>> 
>> > Thomas, you again spread Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts - FUD. I
>> > cannot take your statements seriously.
>> 
>> 
>> That's fine.
>> 
>> I am curious if you think that the ~40 year old Free Software Movement
>> is doing an effective job of spreading the actual practice of software
>> freedom, and even the awareness of the option and what it means for
>> human freedom?
>> 
>> And if I want to point busy city officials or others who
>> could benefit from changing their practices to some web page
>> that will help them help themselves with that, smoothly
>> and efficiently, what page would you suggest? What educational
>> materials will help someone like that?
>> 
>> How will potential users find those materials if I say simply
>> "check out fsf.org"?
>> 
>> What steps has FSF taken in recent decades that have helped
>> with this kind of problem? Is the "free software ladder"
>> concept meant to do this (that isn't my understanding of it
>> so far)?
>> 
>> Similarly, say, a college student not in
>> computer science or anything close to that? or a
>> professor who may be tempted to require students
>> to use unfree software -- where can they quickly and
>> easily check for a better option?
>> 
>> -t
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2022-05-11 20:44, Jean Louis wrote:
>> 
>> > * Thomas Lord lord@basiscraft.com [2022-05-12 03:26]:
>> >
>> > > All the more reason why this is a valuable idea
>> > > for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading
>> > > education and real world use of libre software systems.
>> > >
>> > > Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do
>> > > which is entirely unclear from their web site.
>> > >
>> > > This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point
>> > > city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where
>> > > they could quickly learn about software freedom and about
>> > > available software -- and I discovered that nothing on
>> > > the FSF web site was at all adequate to this.
>> >
>> > Thomas, you again spread Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts - FUD. I
>> > cannot take your statements seriously.
>> >
>> > https://www.fsf.org/ -- it is very clear what FSF does straight from
>> > their website.
>> >
>> > Jean
>> >
>> > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>> > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>> >
>> > In support of Richard M. Stallman
>> > https://stallmansupport.org/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

_______________________________________________
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Re: Please start a new thread for the "specific project proposal"

[Thomas Lord]

The nexus of the two topics is that the original proposal had
two elements: standing up the software systems described and
getting the word out on fsf.org.  From my perspective, there has
been nothing off topic on this thread - just some clarification
of the intent / big picture.

-t


On 2022-05-12 14:35, Akira Urushibata wrote:
> Please consider starting a new thread, or new threads, and make sure
> they are appropriately titled.
> 
> The discussion has veered far away from the original subject.
> 
> I believe that the new project proposal and the discussion about
> shortcomings in the official FSF site are important.
> 
> Please consider how readers would feel when they witness discussions
> going on irrelevant to the header title.  Quite surely some, if not
> most, of them would consider the thread as an inferior source of
> information.
> 
> A new service intended as an alternative to Twitter won't get far if
> it earns the reputation of being full of off-topic messages.
> 
> When discussing improvements to the FSF site, whether the documents
> there are appropriate and to the point would be an important
> consideration.
> 
> Please understand that many people are frustrated with so called
> "click-baits" on YouTube and elsewhere: material that proclaims
> something in the title while failing to get down to that in the body.
> There are too many boys crying wolf out there.  If you are identified
> as one their kind, your reputation as will be tarnished.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)

[Lars Noodén]

I fully support building curricula on Free Software exclusively, or as
close to that as possible with an eye towards achieving 100% in the near
future.  RMS wrote an essay around 20 years ago, "Why Schools Should
Exclusively Use Free Software" [1], which could still serve as a
signpost for the FSF.  However, the environment has changed and control
over software has become a fight on many campuses.  Solutions must deal
with that reality.  It's no longer just a technical question, if indeed
it ever was.

On 5/12/22 20:45, Thomas Lord wrote:
[snip]
 > Similarly, say, a college student not in
 > computer science or anything close to that?  or a
 > professor who may be tempted to require students
 > to use unfree software -- where can they quickly and
 > easily check for a better option?

That may be a fairly common misunderstanding about the amount of choice
faculty members are allowed in regards to selection of software, at
least in recent years.  Yes, it /should/ be quick and easy to choose a
better option, but in many cases the resellers ensconced in the basement
call *all* the shots in regards to tools, methods, and (sometimes)
courses, especially at the smaller or lower-rated institutions.  So
getting any Free Software into the classroom often means a drawn out
fight.  I gather the problem is especially prominent at institutions
where part-time adjunct faculty are used in a more or less disposable
manner, more on that below.  Furthermore, vendors can exploit that and
there may even be some staff here and there who will accept ready-made
sales packets and present them as course material while slapping a
syllabus of sorts around them.

Many of the teams that actually helped people get their job done went
away after the 1990s ended, leaving resellers/embedded sales teams in
their place.  The part-time, temporary, adjunct faculty are just that
while the resellers tend to be full-time permanent employees, which
means there are a lot of politics and longer strategies involved in the
fight that happens when treading on their vendor's toes.  The long
strategies work against temporary faculty members more so than permanent
faculty members, as it is easy to run the clock out on either group but
much easier on the temps.  Because all that fighting and politics takes
time and energy away from activities more likely to boost a career, it
may be more common in practice to fold quickly, acquiesce and work or
pretend to work with the garbage.

Any solution to getting more Free Software onto campuses and into
classrooms and labs has to address the instability and some of the power
dynamics of the new work environment.  As was said already about 20
years ago, "you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you
alone".

/Lars

[1] https://www.gnu.org/education/edu-schools.en.html


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Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)

[Erica Frank]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7734 bytes --]

The biggest impediment to getting free software used on campuses (and in
the business world) is the lack of beginner-level support for switching
from Windows or Mac to a free OS. The problem with multiple Linux (and
similar) setups, each adapted for different specific needs, is that the
average Windows user has no idea how to pick one, and installation is often
followed by problems like "this laptop can no longer connect to the
internet until you download a set of drivers for it.... which you'll need
to do on another machine, and then transfer in."

Tech support for newbie problems is often downright hostile. "If you don't
know how to use a command line, just go back to Windows." Alternately, the
solutions offered are couched in technical language that require several
followup questions like "how would I find out if I have that permission?"
and "I don't know what those settings are, where do I find them?"

And if they ask on Stack Exchange or Stack Overflow, newbie questions are
often faced with reactions like "question closed" followed by a link to
another question that they do not understand as similar to theirs. The
reactions to complaints about this are usually "We're not hostile; we just
don't want to waste time. Learn to ask better questions."

That might be fine for beginning coders. It is not fine for high school
students who are just trying to have a functional computer that does web
browsing, document editing, and maybe a bit of gaming. The end result is
not going to be "this person studies the software and comes back with
better questions"; it's going to be "I guess I'll switch back to Windows."
As long as switching to a free OS comes with a 3+ week self-directed
training period of "google for answers to 'why isn't this basic thing
working like I expect it to?'" very few people are going to switch - or at
least, very few of them will switch and stay.

(Insisting "hey you should use duckduckgo or startpage instead of google"
will not result in more people converting to free software.)

And that applies to other free software as well.
The benefits of switching from MS Office to LibreOffice have to be couched
as something other than "you won't be supporting an evil megacorp and you
won't be handing them all your user data." Because for most people, those
are non-issues, and certainly not worth the hassle of relearning office
software and dealing with the lack of features they've come to expect.

(If anyone knows a free-software equivalent of Acrobat Pro or InDesign, I'd
love to hear about it. And every few years, I install LibreOffice and see
if it'll cover how I use Word; it does not.) (It would cover how I use
Excel and PPT, but I don't see the value in using those without switching
the whole suite. Especially since my job insists on the MS Suite.)

If you want schools & businesses to use free software, set up a website
that recommends one OS and has a quick-install bundle of common
student/business software. (PortableApps.com has a terrific setup for this,
but afiak it's Windows-only.) Set up a forum or (sigh) Discord for
questions, and be supportive to clueless people who are trying out what
they think is a new fad. Find volunteers who are happy to answer endless
beginner questions about how the command line works and explain basic
vocabulary, over and over. (There can be a FAQ page. Very few beginners
will read it, and some of the answers are likely to be too technical or too
long or both. And if the point is converting people to free software, "go
away and come back when you understand better" is not going to work.) Offer
bundle deals with tech support for small businesses that want to convert
their whole office to free software. Or to schools that want to equip all
their students with Linux laptops.

Offer to teach online classes to high school students, to explain how
computers work--because we've reached a point where millions of people have
no idea how "saving a file" works.
https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z


The free software movement is not friendly or welcoming to non-coders. As
long as that's true, it's not going to get strong inroads into education or
the business world. Complaining about how we got here won't fix any of the
problems, and only adds to the belief that the free software movement is
for elitist techies, not for everyday users.

On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:06 AM Lars Noodén <lars.nooden@gmx.com> wrote:

> I fully support building curricula on Free Software exclusively, or as
> close to that as possible with an eye towards achieving 100% in the near
> future.  RMS wrote an essay around 20 years ago, "Why Schools Should
> Exclusively Use Free Software" [1], which could still serve as a
> signpost for the FSF.  However, the environment has changed and control
> over software has become a fight on many campuses.  Solutions must deal
> with that reality.  It's no longer just a technical question, if indeed
> it ever was.
>
> On 5/12/22 20:45, Thomas Lord wrote:
> [snip]
>  > Similarly, say, a college student not in
>  > computer science or anything close to that?  or a
>  > professor who may be tempted to require students
>  > to use unfree software -- where can they quickly and
>  > easily check for a better option?
>
> That may be a fairly common misunderstanding about the amount of choice
> faculty members are allowed in regards to selection of software, at
> least in recent years.  Yes, it /should/ be quick and easy to choose a
> better option, but in many cases the resellers ensconced in the basement
> call *all* the shots in regards to tools, methods, and (sometimes)
> courses, especially at the smaller or lower-rated institutions.  So
> getting any Free Software into the classroom often means a drawn out
> fight.  I gather the problem is especially prominent at institutions
> where part-time adjunct faculty are used in a more or less disposable
> manner, more on that below.  Furthermore, vendors can exploit that and
> there may even be some staff here and there who will accept ready-made
> sales packets and present them as course material while slapping a
> syllabus of sorts around them.
>
> Many of the teams that actually helped people get their job done went
> away after the 1990s ended, leaving resellers/embedded sales teams in
> their place.  The part-time, temporary, adjunct faculty are just that
> while the resellers tend to be full-time permanent employees, which
> means there are a lot of politics and longer strategies involved in the
> fight that happens when treading on their vendor's toes.  The long
> strategies work against temporary faculty members more so than permanent
> faculty members, as it is easy to run the clock out on either group but
> much easier on the temps.  Because all that fighting and politics takes
> time and energy away from activities more likely to boost a career, it
> may be more common in practice to fold quickly, acquiesce and work or
> pretend to work with the garbage.
>
> Any solution to getting more Free Software onto campuses and into
> classrooms and labs has to address the instability and some of the power
> dynamics of the new work environment.  As was said already about 20
> years ago, "you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you
> alone".
>
> /Lars
>
> [1] https://www.gnu.org/education/edu-schools.en.html
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 8390 bytes --]

   The biggest impediment to getting free software used on campuses (and
   in the business world) is the lack of beginner-level support for
   switching from Windows or Mac to a free OS. The problem with multiple
   Linux (and similar) setups, each adapted for different specific needs,
   is that the average Windows user has no idea how to pick one, and
   installation is often followed by problems like "this laptop can no
   longer connect to the internet until you download a set of drivers for
   it.... which you'll need to do on another machine, and then transfer
   in."
   Tech support for newbie problems is often downright hostile. "If you
   don't know how to use a command line, just go back to Windows."
   Alternately, the solutions offered are couched in technical language
   that require several followup questions like "how would I find out if I
   have that permission?" and "I don't know what those settings are, where
   do I find them?"
   And if they ask on Stack Exchange or Stack Overflow, newbie questions
   are often faced with reactions like "question closed" followed by a
   link to another question that they do not understand as similar to
   theirs. The reactions to complaints about this are usually "We're not
   hostile; we just don't want to waste time. Learn to ask better
   questions."
   That might be fine for beginning coders. It is not fine for high school
   students who are just trying to have a functional computer that does
   web browsing, document editing, and maybe a bit of gaming. The end
   result is not going to be "this person studies the software and comes
   back with better questions"; it's going to be "I guess I'll switch back
   to Windows."  As long as switching to a free OS comes with a 3+ week
   self-directed training period of "google for answers to 'why isn't this
   basic thing working like I expect it to?'" very few people are going to
   switch - or at least, very few of them will switch and stay.
   (Insisting "hey you should use duckduckgo or startpage instead of
   google" will not result in more people converting to free software.)
   And that applies to other free software as well.
   The benefits of switching from MS Office to LibreOffice have to be
   couched as something other than "you won't be supporting an evil
   megacorp and you won't be handing them all your user data." Because for
   most people, those are non-issues, and certainly not worth the hassle
   of relearning office software and dealing with the lack of features
   they've come to expect.
   (If anyone knows a free-software equivalent of Acrobat Pro or InDesign,
   I'd love to hear about it. And every few years, I install LibreOffice
   and see if it'll cover how I use Word; it does not.) (It would cover
   how I use Excel and PPT, but I don't see the value in using those
   without switching the whole suite. Especially since my job insists on
   the MS Suite.)
   If you want schools & businesses to use free software, set up a website
   that recommends one OS and has a quick-install bundle of common
   student/business software. (PortableApps.com has a terrific setup for
   this, but afiak it's Windows-only.) Set up a forum or (sigh) Discord
   for questions, and be supportive to clueless people who are trying out
   what they think is a new fad. Find volunteers who are happy to answer
   endless beginner questions about how the command line works and explain
   basic vocabulary, over and over. (There can be a FAQ page. Very few
   beginners will read it, and some of the answers are likely to be too
   technical or too long or both. And if the point is converting people to
   free software, "go away and come back when you understand better" is
   not going to work.) Offer bundle deals with tech support for small
   businesses that want to convert their whole office to free software. Or
   to schools that want to equip all their students with Linux laptops.
   Offer to teach online classes to high school students, to explain how
   computers work--because we've reached a point where millions of people
   have no idea how "saving a file" works.
   [1]https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-str
   ucture-education-gen-z
   The free software movement is not friendly or welcoming to non-coders.
   As long as that's true, it's not going to get strong inroads into
   education or the business world. Complaining about how we got here
   won't fix any of the problems, and only adds to the belief that the
   free software movement is for elitist techies, not for everyday users.

   On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:06 AM Lars Noodén <[2]lars.nooden@gmx.com>
   wrote:

     I fully support building curricula on Free Software exclusively, or
     as
     close to that as possible with an eye towards achieving 100% in the
     near
     future.  RMS wrote an essay around 20 years ago, "Why Schools Should
     Exclusively Use Free Software" [1], which could still serve as a
     signpost for the FSF.  However, the environment has changed and
     control
     over software has become a fight on many campuses.  Solutions must
     deal
     with that reality.  It's no longer just a technical question, if
     indeed
     it ever was.
     On 5/12/22 20:45, Thomas Lord wrote:
     [snip]
      > Similarly, say, a college student not in
      > computer science or anything close to that?  or a
      > professor who may be tempted to require students
      > to use unfree software -- where can they quickly and
      > easily check for a better option?
     That may be a fairly common misunderstanding about the amount of
     choice
     faculty members are allowed in regards to selection of software, at
     least in recent years.  Yes, it /should/ be quick and easy to choose
     a
     better option, but in many cases the resellers ensconced in the
     basement
     call *all* the shots in regards to tools, methods, and (sometimes)
     courses, especially at the smaller or lower-rated institutions.  So
     getting any Free Software into the classroom often means a drawn out
     fight.  I gather the problem is especially prominent at institutions
     where part-time adjunct faculty are used in a more or less
     disposable
     manner, more on that below.  Furthermore, vendors can exploit that
     and
     there may even be some staff here and there who will accept
     ready-made
     sales packets and present them as course material while slapping a
     syllabus of sorts around them.
     Many of the teams that actually helped people get their job done
     went
     away after the 1990s ended, leaving resellers/embedded sales teams
     in
     their place.  The part-time, temporary, adjunct faculty are just
     that
     while the resellers tend to be full-time permanent employees, which
     means there are a lot of politics and longer strategies involved in
     the
     fight that happens when treading on their vendor's toes.  The long
     strategies work against temporary faculty members more so than
     permanent
     faculty members, as it is easy to run the clock out on either group
     but
     much easier on the temps.  Because all that fighting and politics
     takes
     time and energy away from activities more likely to boost a career,
     it
     may be more common in practice to fold quickly, acquiesce and work
     or
     pretend to work with the garbage.
     Any solution to getting more Free Software onto campuses and into
     classrooms and labs has to address the instability and some of the
     power
     dynamics of the new work environment.  As was said already about 20
     years ago, "you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave
     you
     alone".
     /Lars
     [1] [3]https://www.gnu.org/education/edu-schools.en.html
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s

References

   1. https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z
   2. mailto:lars.nooden@gmx.com
   3. https://www.gnu.org/education/edu-schools.en.html
   4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 184 bytes --]

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Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)

[Lars Noodén]

On 5/13/22 21:05, Erica Frank wrote:
[snip]
> And if they ask on Stack Exchange or Stack Overflow, newbie
 > questions are
> often faced with reactions like "question closed" followed by a link
> to another question that they do not understand as similar to
> theirs. The reactions to complaints about this are usually "We're
> not hostile; we just don't want to waste time. Learn to ask better
> questions."
[snip]

And who owns and staffs those sites, and what is their policy on Free
Software?   Hearsay is that is is Prosus N V which is part of Naspers
Limited.  Further, it is alleged to be written using only Redmond's
tools, which belies the attitude of at least the original staff who
would be integral in establishing a culture there.

Reddit, to name another trap, is owned by Conde Nast which is quite
hostile to it and many moderators who seem to act like their mission is
to stamp it out.  Dragging up ancient history, although Slashdot was not
a help site it was a forum for FOSS news due to it reflecting the
zeitgeist at the turn of the century.  Changing owners put an end to that.

/Lars

PS. Thank you in advance for not top-posting.

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Jean Louis]

* Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-05-12 21:34]:
> 
> Jean,
> 
> > Thomas, you again spread Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts - FUD. I
> > cannot take your statements seriously.
> 
> That's fine.

How is that fine?

Promote freedom, not FUD on this mailing list.

> I am curious if you think that the ~40 year old Free Software
> Movement is doing an effective job of spreading the actual practice
> of software freedom, and even the awareness of the option and what
> it means for human freedom?

It should be obvious that today we have largest number of free
software users ever and that number of free software packages today is
at its maximum and just becoming bigger and bigger.

It seems that your question wish to introduce new doubts. But what
information is it based on?

If you have such doubts, I can't help much, that may mean you are not
following it in the same way how I see it or follow the development. I
am following the movement since more than 20 years, and have studied
its past from writings and mailing lists.

And do you maybe wish to imply that some other movement rather than
free software movement is to do better job to spread the message about
freedom in computing? 

Or you got some logical problem there maybe?

> And if I want to point busy city officials or others who could
> benefit from changing their practices to some web page that will
> help them help themselves with that, smoothly and efficiently, what
> page would you suggest?  What educational materials will help
> someone like that?

I am sorry, but I cannot see the truth in your questions. 

Yes, there is a lot of materials on Internet that may help people
raise awareness.

Though your question is meant to undermine that simple fact that
information about free software is widely available.

Example:
https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software

> How will potential users find those materials if I say simply
> "check out fsf.org"?

By reading?

> What steps has FSF taken in recent decades that have helped
> with this kind of problem?  Is the "free software ladder"
> concept meant to do this (that isn't my understanding of it
> so far)?

Ehm, what is the problem exactly? 

Is the problem single one, just in your mind and subjective, or is it
more something objective, please tell us that we can understand it.

> Similarly, say, a college student not in computer science or
> anything close to that? 

I am not a native English speaker, I can't understand what you mean
there. Am I now supposed to find the verb for the above sentence or to
"say" "a college student" -- I get confused with it. 

>  or a professor who may be tempted to require students to use unfree
> software -- where can they quickly and easily check for a better
> option?

Sorry, I do not get the above sentence as well.

If you are asking how to give to somebody idea what is free software,
and I meet a college student, then I may tell how I do it, so I would
explain him in simple words about software freedoms. Same for college
professor. 

I have no problems in explaining what is free software to just
anybody.

Practically in my life I explain to people of all types about free
software. This I do all the time at any kind of conversation with
people when it comes to computer or software.

I have explained it yesterday to Lillian in Kampala, Uganda (high
school), I have explained it before yesterday to Ms. Nagasha L. (in
few days to graduate internation business) and have given her
instructions how to install free software on her mobile phone. Nagasha
is next day on the research project using free software tools. We
discussed how my XMPP network is decentralized and its expense paid by
myself, and she quickly got the point. I said, why should we use
software like Whatsapp where we do not know what this software does to
our data, our contacts, on our phone -- when there is free software
which we can inspect, modify and install on own server, there was no
problem talking about it and understanding it, with somebody who did
not study computers, but rather business.

I have explained about free software just to everybody I got in touch
with. Those people have shown understanding. 

Many of my friends quickly switched to free software, this was in
Germany. They got well aware of the license and freedom. I have been
supporting my friends with tips, settings, configurations, that is how
I know it. We visited each other. 

Here is one list that may show how OS based on Linux kernel spreads in
the world:

List of Linux adopters - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_adopters

The more there are users (larger number) of any OS based on GPL
license, the more awareness of free software will be spread (this will
be smaller number).

Free software licenses as developed by RMS and friends were the key to
spreading of free software. 


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Jean Louis]

* Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-05-13 03:49]:
> 
> And I wish to add that I think I offend some FSF
> fans by saying I think the underlying cause is that
> the FSF has somehow lost sight of two critical goals:
> 
>   1. Education for the general public.

You say it "lost sight" -- that is again spreading of FUD, Fears,
Uncertainties and Doubts. 

FSF Financial Information — Free Software Foundation — Working together for free software
https://www.fsf.org/about/financial

The audited financial statements are made haven thanks, by
professional, and not by some troll. If FSF would lose its sight to
work on its purposes, it would lose its status of being a non-profit,
tax free organization.

>   2. Promoting (through action, through help) far greater
>      intentional, direct use of libre software (including
>      the more widespread exercise of all four freedoms --
>      not merely the recitation of why they are good).

And that is what FSF does. But if you wish to make it stronger
intentional, how about a project proposal from your side?

In other words, you wish to apply for a position in the FSF as you are
complaining with its management. Make a project proposal, try to
improve something, rather than just talking without objective substance.

> So I see something like this need of some people to break
> free of twitter and wonder why the free software movement isn't
> all over such opportunities, with resources, and coordination,
> and support.

GNU project promotes decentralized social networks since long time.

GNU social
https://www.gnu.org/software/social/

then from there on, other people developed various other software like
Pleroma, Mastodon, etc.

Before making a statement, please, make a research.

I was there, and I have installed GNU Social and people use it. 

Did you install one instance yourself?

I was there when Mastodon came, but I was using GNU Social, later I
have installed Pleroma instance and people use it.

Did you install one instance yourself?

Do something about it strongly intentional yourself. Then your FUD
questions will become more substantial.

> And then I look at the FSF, who I think should be working on that,
> and get depressed about "whatever happened to the free software
> movement"?

Please don't blame FSF for your personal problems. Depressions are
solved elsewhere.


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Jean Louis]

* p_newsletters/libreplanet--- via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-05-12 22:42]:
> I myself have been interested about freedom of software almost 15
> years. This interests me a lot and I found myself numerous times
> spending plenty of hours in fsf.org just going deep in the rabbit
> hole. However, this can't be expected from a "non-tech" user, a.k.a
> the large part of the population, who indeed they'd be interested
> about regaining freedom but are greeted with a comprehensive and
> overwhelming amount of info.

Users who come to any website, may see just the peak of the iceberg of
knowledge presented. That knowledge is comprehensive is rather good
and speaks of quality. That knowledge may be overwhelming is
understandable, as new words, terms, they may be the main obstacle in
understanding any subject.

If you wish to explain any page better of send suggestions, see on
https://www.fsf.org/ website at the bottom how to contact FSF and tell
them about it.

If it is so or not, we can't really tell, as Your personal view is
subjective, rather than objective. 

My subjective viewpoint is that FSF website was never overwhelming, it
is comprehensive which I find positive, and I wish it would be more
comprehensive. It is translated in many languages.

That viewpoint is subjective shows the fact that there are so many
contributors, members of the FSF, people who donate money. That is
shown in the financial reports. It also shows that large number of
people do understand messages conveyed through FSF website. Financial
report is objective, it tells of the real world events, not just
personal impressions.

> I talk about fs to many of my peers and then I refer them to fsf.org
> to learn more. The result, lack of engagement and retention from my
> peers with the site. To me this isn't a problem of the user.

That is generalization. When I have made examples how I talk to
people, I have given two names and explained it. 

To how many people did you talk?

Lack of engagement -- what would this mean? Not every person that you
bring to any website will start engaging on the website neither in the
projects website is offering.

What kind of specific retention did you experience?

Before any blame, let us first identify what exactly is the problem.

Then if it is really a website problem, did you report it to webmaster
of FSF?

> My take is that, fsf.org conveys a lot of info, but not
> effectively. Less is more, even in the education field. Notice that
> I am not suggesting deleting info, but better summarize and display.

Make your suggestions specific and report to webmasters.

I can see the menu:

About Campaigns Licensing Membership Resources Community Donate Shop Search
===========================================================================

Is there anything wrong with the menu?

How would you better summarize it please?

Do you see on the bottom of every page full summary? How would you
make the summary?

> I think fsf.org could benefit from better UX design.

Does UX means User Experience? Whatever it means, what is "better"?
Can you propose specific improvements?

> In contradiction with my text, for me the fsf's page is great. But
> again, I am a tech-interested person and don't represent the larger
> amount of internet users.

I wish to see more constructive criticism, not just blaming on
imaginary failures -- while in the same time we can read objective
financial reports and that FSF functions just well. Every organization
may improve. If you wish to propose improvements, do them. Provide the
page that gives that what you want -- and propose to FSF those
changes.

When people develop Emacs Lisp they propose changes, patches, new
programs, they may be accepted or rejected, but changes are pretty
much specific. Try providing specific improvements or point out
specifically to what you mean exactly. Try minimizing generalizations.

Further, you are free to distribute information from FSF pages, you
can make your own FSF-like page, look at licensing of pages, and
provide the UX, and summaries in the way how you think it is good --
then let us know, let us review it, and propose it to FSF.


Jean

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Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)

[Jean Louis]

* Erica Frank <e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-13 21:32]:
> The biggest impediment to getting free software used on campuses (and
> in the business world) is the lack of beginner-level support for
> switching from Windows or Mac to a free OS.

Installing an operating system is simply NOT for beginner. Your best
option for beginners is to buy hardware with installed free operating
system. 

The campaign Upgrade from Windows is availabe for that purpose:
https://www.fsf.org/windows

It points to free software distributions:
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.en.html

Each of them have their forums, mailing lists, IRC, more or less free
support for users to switch to new system.

> The problem with multiple Linux (and similar) setups, each adapted
> for different specific needs, is that the average Windows user has
> no idea how to pick one, and installation is often followed by
> problems like "this laptop can no longer connect to the internet
> until you download a set of drivers for it.... which you'll need to
> do on another machine, and then transfer in."

Multiple-Linux setups does not sound as a beginner problem. However,
would you have some specific issue at hand, I could tell you how and
where to report it, if I cannot resolve it myself.

> Tech support for newbie problems is often downright hostile. "If you
> don't know how to use a command line, just go back to Windows."

That is generalization based on unnamed person's opinion. 

Free software distributions are there abiding by policies on how to
solve issues of users. Your statement above is so far not relevant to
those free software distributions. I have not seen not even one time
that some person would answer that way. In fact, one of policies is
not to drive people to proprietary systems.

Maybe you have asked it on some website not relevant to GNU project or
FSF. 

> Alternately, the solutions offered are couched in technical language
> that require several followup questions like "how would I find out if I
> have that permission?" and "I don't know what those settings are, where
> do I find them?"

Statement is general, strives towards blaming, without constructive
improvement proposal.

For technical questions you should expect technical answers. 

> And if they ask on Stack Exchange or Stack Overflow, newbie
> questions are often faced with reactions like "question closed"
> followed by a link to another question that they do not understand
> as similar to theirs. The reactions to complaints about this are
> usually "We're not hostile; we just don't want to waste time. Learn
> to ask better questions."

Those websites are not related to FSF or GNU project or free software
distributions. 

Your general fury on various communities cannot possibly be solved on
Libreplanet mailing list.

> That might be fine for beginning coders. It is not fine for high school
> students who are just trying to have a functional computer that does
> web browsing, document editing, and maybe a bit of gaming. The end
> result is not going to be "this person studies the software and comes
> back with better questions"; it's going to be "I guess I'll switch back
> to Windows."

That some people will remain on proprietary OS is understandable, and
that more people will switch is also provable by statistics, as there
is every day more and more GNU/Linux users. Dissatisfaction on your
side does not at all represent global movement, unspoken a fact.

https://findly.in/how-many-linux-users-are-there/

> As long as switching to a free OS comes with a 3+ week self-directed
> training period of "google for answers to 'why isn't this basic
> thing working like I expect it to?'" very few people are going to
> switch - or at least, very few of them will switch and stay.

That is your opinion. I cannot relate to it, it is general, blaming,
and does not represent anyone's true or real world experience.

> (Insisting "hey you should use duckduckgo or startpage instead of
> google" will not result in more people converting to free software.)

That is tangential issue. Though nobody forbids you to use Google, I
can't see where is the real problem on your side.

> And that applies to other free software as well.  The benefits of
> switching from MS Office to LibreOffice have to be couched as
> something other than "you won't be supporting an evil megacorp and
> you won't be handing them all your user data." Because for most
> people, those are non-issues, and certainly not worth the hassle of
> relearning office software and dealing with the lack of features
> they've come to expect.  (If anyone knows a free-software equivalent
> of Acrobat Pro or InDesign, I'd love to hear about it. And every few
> years, I install LibreOffice and see if it'll cover how I use Word;
> it does not.) (It would cover how I use Excel and PPT, but I don't
> see the value in using those without switching the whole
> suite. Especially since my job insists on the MS Suite.)

Oh, now I get it. 🤗 Well... there are many ways of how people do
their documents. You would not be able to achieve in Word what I do
with LaTeX as well. I am also using Asciidoctor and I may be faster by
all means to prepare business contracts and agreements, employment
contracts, project documents, my business runs on Emacs that runs
LaTex or Asciidoctor, just as example.

Many of my documents are ordered and I have quick access to such. Here
is a short statistics below. When you become proficient in any
software, you may rather tend to stick to what you know. That is
rather normal, but is not an objective view point. I would expect you
to express yourself objectively, based on some survey or poll of users.

┌──────────────────────────────┬───────────────────────┬─────────────────────────────┬───────┐
│             Type             │       Sub-type        │           Markup            │ Count │
├──────────────────────────────┼───────────────────────┼─────────────────────────────┼───────┤
│ Asciidoctor                  │ Default               │ Asciidoctor                 │    53 │
│ Asciidoctor                  │ Attachment            │ Asciidoctor                 │     2 │
│ Asciidoctor                  │ Agreement             │ Asciidoctor                 │     1 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF              │ Default               │ Asciidoctor PDF             │    17 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF              │ Agreement             │ Asciidoctor PDF             │    10 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF              │ PDF                   │ Asciidoctor PDF             │     6 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF              │ Task                  │ Asciidoctor PDF             │     5 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF              │ Report                │ Asciidoctor PDF             │     3 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF              │ Partnership Offer     │ Asciidoctor PDF             │     2 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF              │ Attachment            │ Asciidoctor PDF             │     2 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF              │ Quotation             │ Asciidoctor PDF             │     1 │
│ Audio                        │ Default               │ Default                     │    64 │
│ Audio                        │ Song                  │ Default                     │    17 │
│ Audio                        │ Voice                 │ Default                     │     1 │
│ AVAILABLE                    │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Backlink                     │ Default               │ Default                     │   252 │
│ CBR                          │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Common Lisp                  │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ CSV                          │ Default               │ Default                     │    11 │
│ DB-ID                        │ Default               │ Default                     │     7 │
│ Directory                    │ Default               │ Default                     │    70 │
│ DISEASE                      │ Default               │ Default                     │     7 │
│ DJVU                         │ Default               │ Default                     │    25 │
│ DOCX                         │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Emacs Lisp                   │ Default               │ Default                     │     4 │
│ Emacs Lisp Hyperlink         │ Default               │ Default                     │    74 │
│ Enriched                     │ Default               │ Enriched                    │     4 │
│ EPUB                         │ Default               │ Default                     │   120 │
│ EPUB                         │ Recipe                │ Default                     │     1 │
│ File                         │ Default               │ Default                     │   115 │
│ FOLLOW-UP                    │ Default               │ Default                     │    67 │
│ GnuCash                      │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Gnumeric                     │ Spreadsheet           │ Default                     │     4 │
│ HTML Hyperdocument           │ Default               │ Default                     │    26 │
│ HyperScope ID                │ Default               │ Default                     │    13 │
│ Image                        │ Default               │ Default                     │   472 │
│ Image                        │ Food                  │ Default                     │     2 │
│ Image                        │ Recipe                │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Image                        │ Signature             │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Info Node                    │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Instruction                  │ Default               │ Default                     │     8 │
│ Instruction                  │ E-mail Snippet        │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Kotl (Hyperbole Outline)     │ Default               │ Kotl                        │     1 │
│ Launch Program               │ Default               │ Default                     │     6 │
│ Local File                   │ Default               │ Default                     │    25 │
│ Maff                         │ Default               │ Default                     │     2 │
│ Markdown                     │ Default               │ Markdown                    │  4018 │
│ Markdown                     │ Poem                  │ Markdown                    │     5 │
│ Markdown                     │ Default               │ Org                         │     1 │
│ Markdown                     │ Cognition             │ Markdown                    │     1 │
│ Markdown (Pandoc, espresso)  │ Default               │ Markdown (Pandoc, espresso) │    54 │
│ Mbox                         │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Media                        │ Default               │ Default                     │    13 │
│ Media                        │ Song                  │ Default                     │     6 │
│ Meeting                      │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Message-ID                   │ Default               │ Default                     │     8 │
│ Mobi                         │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Mount Point                  │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ MPV play video at exact time │ Default               │ Default                     │    24 │
│ Note                         │ Default               │ Default                     │  6299 │
│ Note                         │ Dev-T                 │ Default                     │   285 │
│ Note                         │ Report                │ Default                     │    69 │
│ Note                         │ Poem                  │ Default                     │    25 │
│ Note                         │ Call                  │ Default                     │    12 │
│ Note                         │ Request for quotation │ Default                     │    10 │
│ Note                         │ Request For Proposal  │ Default                     │     7 │
│ Note                         │ Cognition             │ Default                     │     6 │
│ Note                         │ Quotation             │ Default                     │     6 │
│ Note                         │ Question              │ Default                     │     5 │
│ Note                         │ E-mail Snippet        │ Default                     │     5 │
│ Note                         │ Offer                 │ Default                     │     4 │
│ Note                         │ Phone                 │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Note                         │ Partnership Offer     │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Note                         │ Progress              │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Note                         │ Proposal              │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Note                         │ Recipe                │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Note                         │ Template              │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Note                         │ Warning               │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Note                         │ Pricing               │ Default                     │     2 │
│ Note                         │ Dream                 │ Default                     │     2 │
│ Note                         │ Online Account        │ Default                     │     2 │
│ Note                         │ Instructions          │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Note                         │ Ethics Report         │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Note                         │ PDF                   │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Note                         │ Default               │ Markdown                    │     1 │
│ Note                         │ Contact Information   │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Note                         │ Meeting               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Note                         │ Financial Subject     │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Note                         │ Event                 │ Default                     │     1 │
│ ODS                          │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ ODT                          │ Default               │ Default                     │     2 │
│ Opportunity                  │ Default               │ Default                     │    37 │
│ Org                          │ Default               │ Org                         │    31 │
│ Org Heading                  │ Default               │ Org Heading                 │     2 │
│ Page in physical book        │ Training              │ Default                     │     1 │
│ PDF                          │ Default               │ Default                     │  2626 │
│ PDF                          │ Book                  │ Default                     │     7 │
│ PDF                          │ Quotation             │ Default                     │     3 │
│ PDF                          │ Report                │ Default                     │     2 │
│ PDF                          │ Default               │ Asciidoctor PDF             │     1 │
│ PDF                          │ Agreement             │ Default                     │     1 │
│ PDF                          │ PDF                   │ Default                     │     1 │
│ PDF                          │ Recipe                │ Default                     │     1 │
│ PDF                          │ Business Profile      │ Default                     │     1 │
│ PDF                          │ Contract              │ Default                     │     1 │
│ PDF by Page Nr.              │ Default               │ Default                     │ 14475 │
│ PostgreSQL                   │ Default               │ Default                     │    19 │
│ PostgreSQL                   │ Report                │ Default                     │     6 │
│ QUOTATION                    │ Default               │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Quote                        │ Default               │ Default                     │     6 │
│ Scheme                       │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Self                         │ Default               │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Set ➾                        │ Default               │ Default                     │  1756 │
│ Set ➾                        │ Financial Subject     │ Default                     │     2 │
│ Set ➾                        │ Follow-up             │ Default                     │     2 │
│ Set ➾                        │ Recipe                │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Shell Command                │ Default               │ Default                     │     3 │
│ Shell Script                 │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ SUCCESS                      │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Task                         │ Default               │ Default                     │   248 │
│ Task                         │ Call                  │ Default                     │    39 │
│ Task                         │ Travel                │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Task                         │ Training              │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Task                         │ Dev-T                 │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Task                         │ Pay                   │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Task                         │ Practical Skill       │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Task                         │ Report                │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Text                         │ E-mail Signature      │ Default                     │     8 │
│ Text                         │ E-mail Snippet        │ Default                     │     6 │
│ Text                         │ Default               │ Markdown                    │     2 │
│ Text                         │ Signature             │ Markdown                    │     1 │
│ txt2tags                     │ Default               │ txt2tags                    │     1 │
│ URL for Image                │ Default               │ Default                     │    25 │
│ Video                        │ Default               │ Default                     │   162 │
│ Video                        │ Song                  │ Default                     │     1 │
│ WRS Unprocessed Page         │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ WWW                          │ Default               │ Default                     │ 10324 │
│ WWW                          │ PDF                   │ Default                     │    78 │
│ WWW                          │ Recipe                │ Default                     │    20 │
│ WWW                          │ Patent                │ Default                     │    17 │
│ WWW                          │ Video                 │ Default                     │     4 │
│ WWW                          │ Song                  │ Default                     │     3 │
│ WWW                          │ Article               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ WWW                          │ Link to Map           │ Default                     │     1 │
│ WWW                          │ Drug Information      │ Default                     │     1 │
│ WWW                          │ Spreadsheet           │ Default                     │     1 │
│ WWW                          │ Task                  │ Default                     │     1 │
│ WWW                          │ Partnership Offer     │ Default                     │     1 │
│ XCF                          │ Default               │ Default                     │     1 │
│ Xournalpp                    │ Default               │ Default                     │     3 │
│ YouTube Video                │ Default               │ Default                     │   231 │
│ YouTube Video                │ Recipe                │ Default                     │     1 │
│ YouTube Video at exact time  │ Default               │ Default                     │    61 │
└──────────────────────────────┴───────────────────────┴─────────────────────────────┴───────┘

> If you want schools & businesses to use free software, set up a
> website that recommends one OS and has a quick-install bundle of
> common student/business software.

Such websites already exist, installations are there, I have pointed
out to free software distributions. There is no problem to read and
follow up simple instructions.

If I want a school or business to use free software, then I sell the
idea to director, and then all computers get installed free OS, and
that is something done by technical person.

And if you think that somebody in school or business should be able to
learn how to install free OS -- such installations and websites are
all over Internet. 

You may claim they are not available, but they are there. All
GNU/Linux distributions have pointers to installations.

> (PortableApps.com has a terrific setup for this, but afiak it's
> Windows-only.) Set up a forum or (sigh) Discord for questions, and
> be supportive to clueless people who are trying out what they think
> is a new fad. Find volunteers who are happy to answer endless
> beginner questions about how the command line works and explain
> basic vocabulary, over and over. (There can be a FAQ page. Very few
> beginners will read it, and some of the answers are likely to be too
> technical or too long or both. And if the point is converting people
> to free software, "go away and come back when you understand better"
> is not going to work.) Offer bundle deals with tech support for
> small businesses that want to convert their whole office to free
> software. Or to schools that want to equip all their students with
> Linux laptops.  Offer to teach online classes to high school
> students, to explain how computers work--because we've reached a
> point where millions of people have no idea how "saving a file"
> works.

You are right, and that is done on numerous mailing lists, forums,
IRC -- I just do not relate to all that to be so negative how you
portray it.

Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/



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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Thomas Lord]

Contacting the FSF is a total crap shoot.  In my experience,
if it isn't something immediately in their favor they are
a read only device.

That the FSF can't clearly state its actions and future
intentions via outreach to a general public outside
the movement, I think they need to re-read their charter
and application for NPO status.

-t


On 2022-05-18 15:10, Jean Louis wrote:
> * p_newsletters/libreplanet--- via libreplanet-discuss
> <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-05-12 22:42]:
>> I myself have been interested about freedom of software almost 15
>> years. This interests me a lot and I found myself numerous times
>> spending plenty of hours in fsf.org just going deep in the rabbit
>> hole. However, this can't be expected from a "non-tech" user, a.k.a
>> the large part of the population, who indeed they'd be interested
>> about regaining freedom but are greeted with a comprehensive and
>> overwhelming amount of info.
> 
> Users who come to any website, may see just the peak of the iceberg of
> knowledge presented. That knowledge is comprehensive is rather good
> and speaks of quality. That knowledge may be overwhelming is
> understandable, as new words, terms, they may be the main obstacle in
> understanding any subject.
> 
> If you wish to explain any page better of send suggestions, see on
> https://www.fsf.org/ website at the bottom how to contact FSF and tell
> them about it.
> 
> If it is so or not, we can't really tell, as Your personal view is
> subjective, rather than objective.
> 
> My subjective viewpoint is that FSF website was never overwhelming, it
> is comprehensive which I find positive, and I wish it would be more
> comprehensive. It is translated in many languages.
> 
> That viewpoint is subjective shows the fact that there are so many
> contributors, members of the FSF, people who donate money. That is
> shown in the financial reports. It also shows that large number of
> people do understand messages conveyed through FSF website. Financial
> report is objective, it tells of the real world events, not just
> personal impressions.
> 
>> I talk about fs to many of my peers and then I refer them to fsf.org
>> to learn more. The result, lack of engagement and retention from my
>> peers with the site. To me this isn't a problem of the user.
> 
> That is generalization. When I have made examples how I talk to
> people, I have given two names and explained it.
> 
> To how many people did you talk?
> 
> Lack of engagement -- what would this mean? Not every person that you
> bring to any website will start engaging on the website neither in the
> projects website is offering.
> 
> What kind of specific retention did you experience?
> 
> Before any blame, let us first identify what exactly is the problem.
> 
> Then if it is really a website problem, did you report it to webmaster
> of FSF?
> 
>> My take is that, fsf.org conveys a lot of info, but not
>> effectively. Less is more, even in the education field. Notice that
>> I am not suggesting deleting info, but better summarize and display.
> 
> Make your suggestions specific and report to webmasters.
> 
> I can see the menu:
> 
> About Campaigns Licensing Membership Resources Community Donate Shop 
> Search
> ===========================================================================
> 
> Is there anything wrong with the menu?
> 
> How would you better summarize it please?
> 
> Do you see on the bottom of every page full summary? How would you
> make the summary?
> 
>> I think fsf.org could benefit from better UX design.
> 
> Does UX means User Experience? Whatever it means, what is "better"?
> Can you propose specific improvements?
> 
>> In contradiction with my text, for me the fsf's page is great. But
>> again, I am a tech-interested person and don't represent the larger
>> amount of internet users.
> 
> I wish to see more constructive criticism, not just blaming on
> imaginary failures -- while in the same time we can read objective
> financial reports and that FSF functions just well. Every organization
> may improve. If you wish to propose improvements, do them. Provide the
> page that gives that what you want -- and propose to FSF those
> changes.
> 
> When people develop Emacs Lisp they propose changes, patches, new
> programs, they may be accepted or rejected, but changes are pretty
> much specific. Try providing specific improvements or point out
> specifically to what you mean exactly. Try minimizing generalizations.
> 
> Further, you are free to distribute information from FSF pages, you
> can make your own FSF-like page, look at licensing of pages, and
> provide the UX, and summaries in the way how you think it is good --
> then let us know, let us review it, and propose it to FSF.
> 
> 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)

[Jean Louis]

* Erica Frank <e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-19 22:30]:
> It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has little
> interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer public, and
> this reply just reinforces my belief.

That is not true.

That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively true.

Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large
companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo,
including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is very
out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little
interest" in outreach to general public.

We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel.

GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman
https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html

But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only, there
are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux on
their computers.

How to Install Linux
https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/

Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows
https://www.educba.com/install-linux/

How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux

How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop
https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/

How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F

How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC
https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html

How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks
https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/

How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022]
https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html

How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How
https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac

How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide
https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html

How to install Linux - CNET
https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/

How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim
https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/

How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How
https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10

Install WSL | Microsoft Docs
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install

How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com
https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/

How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com
https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation

How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US
https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc

The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com
https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/

▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022
https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial

A Beginners’ Guide to Linux
https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/

Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners
https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tutorials/linux-tutorial/

Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-administration/

Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide
https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide/

The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu
https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview

UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days
https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html

Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command Line
https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/

How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma
https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/

Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet | Linuxlookup
https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux

Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal
https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-the-linux-terminal/

A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog
https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/

A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux
https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beginners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux

Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating System - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8

A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot
https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/

Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar
https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778

The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find within
10 seconds of work. It is my Dynamic Knowledge Repository that stores
the information and that helps me to quickly reference it:

Hyperscope - Dynamic Knowledge Repository
https://hyperscope.link/index.html

About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR)
https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/

Thus one can objectively conclude that large number of largest
companies, users and developers are interested to help beginners to
get along with GNU/Linux systems.

> Stating that support for free software " is done on numerous mailing lists,
> forums, IRC" - is not helpful.

I understand that you could not get help, sorry, I cannot know why
exactly, maybe is problem with searching on Internet, or maybe
accessing different ways of getting help.

There are also professionals who will come to your home and help you
with whatever free software. You pay for service, and you get
assistance. If you tell me where you are located, I can definitely
find you people who can come and personally help you with
installations or software. There are those teaching others
computing.

> Yes, I can review the list of free software distros and install one
> and go looking for support if I need it. But why would I?

Opps, I am reading your emails while answering. So you mean, that
there is nothing for beginners, or you mean there is something for
beginners, and you already found it, but it is not helpful because you
would not install it. That is quite a different issue.

Nobody forces you to install anything. Who said GNU/Linux is for
everybody. You have plenty of choices for computing, it is all your
choice. 

> I don't see any value in switching from Windows to Linux, other than
> an abstract sense of "I would not be supporting Microsoft's
> attempted monopoly."

While it is not important for you, many people do understand the
importance of free software.

What is Free Software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

And if you do not see the above free software freedoms as important,
feel free to continue with proprietary software. It is your life, your
information, your computer. 

There may be some other arguments for free software:

What Is Linux and Why Is It Important?
https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/

Why Use Linux? Here are the Reasons Why You Should
https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/

> (My adult daughters both use Linux because they were increasingly annoyed
> with Windows' invasive OS. However, I use Windows for work; I don't have
> the option to switch entirely. Several programs I use don't have Linux
> versions, and my daughters' experiences with WINE make me leery of trying.
> I can't afford to run into snags that take several hours to fix as I wade
> through various help forums trying to find the one that has an answer that
> actually works.)

That is how it is, life is not a dream.

> Ah. It sounds like you have infinite time available to work on software
> projects, instead of using software to do things.

But how do you know it?

Did you ever come on idea that reason why developers develop software
is because they are themselves using it to do things?

For example, I am developing my database, but probably 99.9% of time I
spend using the database. The things I do are such as recording
geographic positions, images, field reports into the database, any
kind of information, indexing, then relating it to people, assigning
tasks, projects, sending SMS from computer, initiating phone calls
straight, faster from computer with quick to edit notes. Some of
things I do is about to help Italian investors purchase coffee from
Uganda, Russian people to find their gold mining sites, some
individial businessmen to start their businesses. So I gave you on my
personal example, how the time is available to do things.

> "Just search for a list of options, pick one of the three dozen
> results, install that one, search for its help forums, figure out
> how to join the relevant email lists, and ask for help; make sure to
> provide the technical details they require and search for
> definitions of the vocabulary used in the responses."
>> 
> That's fine for a personal project; it utterly fails as a premise for a
> school or business switching to a less-popular OS. Again: Why would they
> bother? They have an OS that works.

That such informational resources utterly fail like you say is unknown
to me. But how do you know it?

Free software is not there for reason to be popular, more or less
popular, the reasons I gave you are four freedoms. I do understand
that people are drawn by what is popular, and that there are many
other reasons for choices.

The role of Linux and computers in schools
http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html

Linux in Indiana Schools
http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/

Indiana schools enroll Linux - CNET
https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linux/

Which Linux distributions are best for schools? | Open School Solutions
https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best-for-schools/

Best Educational Linux Distros for Children & Schools [2022]
https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/

The role of Linux and computers in schools
http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html

That it utterly fails in schools can't objectively be said. 

Then if you are only in the US and speak only English, you may not
have access to information in French, Italian, German and other
foreign language speaking resource to understand how much GNU/Linux is
used in schools.

Example:
Linux in der Schule – Freie Open Source Software in der Schule
https://linux-bildung.at/

For business I should not tell anything, we know that 56% developers
are using GNU/Linux, those developers work for businesses.

In fact, you are using Gmail service that runs on GNU/Linux. That is
far from Linux-based systems and "utterly" failing in businesses.

(13) Which Linux distribution does Google run on its production servers? - Quora
https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-its-production-servers?share=1

> I do book publishing. I use InDesign for layout. I use Word to set up
> documents with styles that import to InDesign. InDesign doesn't import
> LaTeX docs, and a quick check says LaTeX won't save out as .doc.
> I did some research into using LaTeX for layout, but could not confirm that
> it had the necessary layout features. Most crucial was having standard text
> lines match position across columns and pages, regardless of any irregular
> formatting included. I remember also hearing about issues with
> headers/footers, but the leading match was the key issue that convinced me
> to stop looking at it.

Those are probably funamentally different tools, one is proprietary,
other one LaTeX is free software running on any operating system, one
is visual, other one is text setting software. They are hardly to be
compared. But OK.

What you mention as most crucial reminds me of LaTeX features. 

I do not think that for quick visual placement of pictures and text,
one shall use LaTeX. but it is possible, more visual tool is:

Get Scribus – Scribus
https://www.scribus.net/downloads/

in connection with Gimp and Inkscape.

We are in different mind sets, as if you do not find a feature you
need, you grab and stay with proprietary software.

And me, if I do not have a feature that I need, I find it and find
solution and make it happen.

Because there is GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, TeX and LaTeX, there is
LibreOffice, then me personally really satisfy all my graphics and
desktop publishing related needs. 

But my mind set is different, as if I cannot get things done on
GNU/Linux, I get things done on GNU/Linux. 

For me, proprietary software is not an option. 

Though on mobile phones is almost impossible to avoid it. And we use
such phones in business. But then all proprietary software and Google
applications get blocked, and researchers are sent to field, working
with free software.

> Maybe it could work. But I'm not putting dozens of hours into
> researching and learning the program to find out it can't. I need
> complex and specific layout options, and searching the web has not
> turned up info on whether LaTeX or other programs has those
> features.

Learning is required.

I can tell you one thing -- back in 1999 I have been accomplishing any
graphics needs with GNU/Linux like I am doing it today 2022. I was
using back in time if I remember well, just XFig software, and I did
make money with it, I have beend disseminating posters and flyers all
over Stuttgart, Germany.

> I am not saying "everyone needs Word & similar programs." (Certainly not
> saying "everyone needs InDesign or similar.") I'm saying that I haven't
> found open-source software, much less free software, that covers my
> professional document needs. That problem carries over for most businesses
> and most schools.

You have not made specific request, maybe you should. 

> "People should be using markup instead of WYSIWYG" is a fine philosophical
> statement but does absolutely nothing to convince people to use the
> software. (Especially when support for markup languages varies greatly by
> device and software.)

I don't think markup and visual tools do the same purpose. Anyway,
make your specific request, there must be way to solve that issue of
margins you said.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)

[Yasuaki Kudo]

With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the equals, and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero "come back later when you know know how to ask better questions", zero knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership - initially focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement.

 In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will be welcome!  They are not only welcome but will probably form the backbone of the society.

Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this.

In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an important part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus.

Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the software requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing as the bare minimum standard.

But it won't be just married to Free Software, either.   The software licensing is just a part its concern and it will also have discussions of how to take advantage of proprietary systems.

IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from accessing homepages built with Free Software.   Windows is proprietary but WSL2 makes available a Linux subsystem on top of it.

Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly good strategy, in my opinion.  If I may add, what else is a proprietary system good for, other than to make the transition to the Free? 

If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me personally 😄  - let's make it happen!

-Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 yasu@yasuaki.com http://yasuaki.com

On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> * Erica Frank <e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-19 22:30]:
>> It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has little
>> interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer public, and
>> this reply just reinforces my belief.
> 
> That is not true.
> 
> That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively true.
> 
> Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large
> companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo,
> including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is very
> out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little
> interest" in outreach to general public.
> 
> We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel.
> 
> GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman
> https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
> 
> But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only, there
> are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux on
> their computers.
> 
> How to Install Linux
> https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows
> https://www.educba.com/install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
> https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux
> 
> How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop
> https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US
> https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F
> 
> How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC
> https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html
> 
> How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks
> https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022]
> https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html
> 
> How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How
> https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac
> 
> How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html
> 
> How to install Linux - CNET
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim
> https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How
> https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10
> 
> Install WSL | Microsoft Docs
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
> 
> How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com
> https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/
> 
> How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com
> https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation
> 
> How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US
> https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc
> 
> The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com
> https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/
> 
> ▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022
> https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial
> 
> A Beginners’ Guide to Linux
> https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/
> 
> Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners
> https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tutorials/linux-tutorial/
> 
> Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks
> https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-administration/
> 
> Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide
> https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide/
> 
> The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu
> https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview
> 
> UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days
> https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html
> 
> Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command Line
> https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/
> 
> How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma
> https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/
> 
> Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet | Linuxlookup
> https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux
> 
> Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal
> https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-the-linux-terminal/
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog
> https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux
> https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beginners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux
> 
> Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating System - YouTube
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot
> https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/
> 
> Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar
> https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778
> 
> The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find within
> 10 seconds of work. It is my Dynamic Knowledge Repository that stores
> the information and that helps me to quickly reference it:
> 
> Hyperscope - Dynamic Knowledge Repository
> https://hyperscope.link/index.html
> 
> About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR)
> https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/
> 
> Thus one can objectively conclude that large number of largest
> companies, users and developers are interested to help beginners to
> get along with GNU/Linux systems.
> 
>> Stating that support for free software " is done on numerous mailing lists,
>> forums, IRC" - is not helpful.
> 
> I understand that you could not get help, sorry, I cannot know why
> exactly, maybe is problem with searching on Internet, or maybe
> accessing different ways of getting help.
> 
> There are also professionals who will come to your home and help you
> with whatever free software. You pay for service, and you get
> assistance. If you tell me where you are located, I can definitely
> find you people who can come and personally help you with
> installations or software. There are those teaching others
> computing.
> 
>> Yes, I can review the list of free software distros and install one
>> and go looking for support if I need it. But why would I?
> 
> Opps, I am reading your emails while answering. So you mean, that
> there is nothing for beginners, or you mean there is something for
> beginners, and you already found it, but it is not helpful because you
> would not install it. That is quite a different issue.
> 
> Nobody forces you to install anything. Who said GNU/Linux is for
> everybody. You have plenty of choices for computing, it is all your
> choice. 
> 
>> I don't see any value in switching from Windows to Linux, other than
>> an abstract sense of "I would not be supporting Microsoft's
>> attempted monopoly."
> 
> While it is not important for you, many people do understand the
> importance of free software.
> 
> What is Free Software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> And if you do not see the above free software freedoms as important,
> feel free to continue with proprietary software. It is your life, your
> information, your computer. 
> 
> There may be some other arguments for free software:
> 
> What Is Linux and Why Is It Important?
> https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/
> 
> Why Use Linux? Here are the Reasons Why You Should
> https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/
> 
>> (My adult daughters both use Linux because they were increasingly annoyed
>> with Windows' invasive OS. However, I use Windows for work; I don't have
>> the option to switch entirely. Several programs I use don't have Linux
>> versions, and my daughters' experiences with WINE make me leery of trying.
>> I can't afford to run into snags that take several hours to fix as I wade
>> through various help forums trying to find the one that has an answer that
>> actually works.)
> 
> That is how it is, life is not a dream.
> 
>> Ah. It sounds like you have infinite time available to work on software
>> projects, instead of using software to do things.
> 
> But how do you know it?
> 
> Did you ever come on idea that reason why developers develop software
> is because they are themselves using it to do things?
> 
> For example, I am developing my database, but probably 99.9% of time I
> spend using the database. The things I do are such as recording
> geographic positions, images, field reports into the database, any
> kind of information, indexing, then relating it to people, assigning
> tasks, projects, sending SMS from computer, initiating phone calls
> straight, faster from computer with quick to edit notes. Some of
> things I do is about to help Italian investors purchase coffee from
> Uganda, Russian people to find their gold mining sites, some
> individial businessmen to start their businesses. So I gave you on my
> personal example, how the time is available to do things.
> 
>> "Just search for a list of options, pick one of the three dozen
>> results, install that one, search for its help forums, figure out
>> how to join the relevant email lists, and ask for help; make sure to
>> provide the technical details they require and search for
>> definitions of the vocabulary used in the responses."
>>> 
>> That's fine for a personal project; it utterly fails as a premise for a
>> school or business switching to a less-popular OS. Again: Why would they
>> bother? They have an OS that works.
> 
> That such informational resources utterly fail like you say is unknown
> to me. But how do you know it?
> 
> Free software is not there for reason to be popular, more or less
> popular, the reasons I gave you are four freedoms. I do understand
> that people are drawn by what is popular, and that there are many
> other reasons for choices.
> 
> The role of Linux and computers in schools
> http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
> 
> Linux in Indiana Schools
> http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/
> 
> Indiana schools enroll Linux - CNET
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linux/
> 
> Which Linux distributions are best for schools? | Open School Solutions
> https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best-for-schools/
> 
> Best Educational Linux Distros for Children & Schools [2022]
> https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/
> 
> The role of Linux and computers in schools
> http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
> 
> That it utterly fails in schools can't objectively be said. 
> 
> Then if you are only in the US and speak only English, you may not
> have access to information in French, Italian, German and other
> foreign language speaking resource to understand how much GNU/Linux is
> used in schools.
> 
> Example:
> Linux in der Schule – Freie Open Source Software in der Schule
> https://linux-bildung.at/
> 
> For business I should not tell anything, we know that 56% developers
> are using GNU/Linux, those developers work for businesses.
> 
> In fact, you are using Gmail service that runs on GNU/Linux. That is
> far from Linux-based systems and "utterly" failing in businesses.
> 
> (13) Which Linux distribution does Google run on its production servers? - Quora
> https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-its-production-servers?share=1
> 
>> I do book publishing. I use InDesign for layout. I use Word to set up
>> documents with styles that import to InDesign. InDesign doesn't import
>> LaTeX docs, and a quick check says LaTeX won't save out as .doc.
>> I did some research into using LaTeX for layout, but could not confirm that
>> it had the necessary layout features. Most crucial was having standard text
>> lines match position across columns and pages, regardless of any irregular
>> formatting included. I remember also hearing about issues with
>> headers/footers, but the leading match was the key issue that convinced me
>> to stop looking at it.
> 
> Those are probably funamentally different tools, one is proprietary,
> other one LaTeX is free software running on any operating system, one
> is visual, other one is text setting software. They are hardly to be
> compared. But OK.
> 
> What you mention as most crucial reminds me of LaTeX features. 
> 
> I do not think that for quick visual placement of pictures and text,
> one shall use LaTeX. but it is possible, more visual tool is:
> 
> Get Scribus – Scribus
> https://www.scribus.net/downloads/
> 
> in connection with Gimp and Inkscape.
> 
> We are in different mind sets, as if you do not find a feature you
> need, you grab and stay with proprietary software.
> 
> And me, if I do not have a feature that I need, I find it and find
> solution and make it happen.
> 
> Because there is GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, TeX and LaTeX, there is
> LibreOffice, then me personally really satisfy all my graphics and
> desktop publishing related needs. 
> 
> But my mind set is different, as if I cannot get things done on
> GNU/Linux, I get things done on GNU/Linux. 
> 
> For me, proprietary software is not an option. 
> 
> Though on mobile phones is almost impossible to avoid it. And we use
> such phones in business. But then all proprietary software and Google
> applications get blocked, and researchers are sent to field, working
> with free software.
> 
>> Maybe it could work. But I'm not putting dozens of hours into
>> researching and learning the program to find out it can't. I need
>> complex and specific layout options, and searching the web has not
>> turned up info on whether LaTeX or other programs has those
>> features.
> 
> Learning is required.
> 
> I can tell you one thing -- back in 1999 I have been accomplishing any
> graphics needs with GNU/Linux like I am doing it today 2022. I was
> using back in time if I remember well, just XFig software, and I did
> make money with it, I have beend disseminating posters and flyers all
> over Stuttgart, Germany.
> 
>> I am not saying "everyone needs Word & similar programs." (Certainly not
>> saying "everyone needs InDesign or similar.") I'm saying that I haven't
>> found open-source software, much less free software, that covers my
>> professional document needs. That problem carries over for most businesses
>> and most schools.
> 
> You have not made specific request, maybe you should. 
> 
>> "People should be using markup instead of WYSIWYG" is a fine philosophical
>> statement but does absolutely nothing to convince people to use the
>> software. (Especially when support for markup languages varies greatly by
>> device and software.)
> 
> I don't think markup and visual tools do the same purpose. Anyway,
> make your specific request, there must be way to solve that issue of
> margins you said.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Jean Louis]

* Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-05-19 18:06]:
> 
> Contacting the FSF is a total crap shoot.  In my experience,
> if it isn't something immediately in their favor they are
> a read only device.

There are other mailing lists for that type of expressions. Maybe you
should consider diversifying your interests.

> That the FSF can't clearly state its actions and future
> intentions via outreach to a general public outside
> the movement, I think they need to re-read their charter
> and application for NPO status.

Their website is very clear https://www.fsf.org



Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)

[Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 21780 bytes --]

 
 
I was reading yourlong email, and this has been on my mind for a long time, but inorder to get the freedom respecting software technology into thehands of everyone for everything instead of proprietary software,what you have to solve is not a technology problem, but a marketingproblem. 




If you think abouthow we got to the state we are in today, with proprietary softwaredominating in certain areas of computing, you have to remember thatthe reason for that is because of marketing, not because the productsare better, but because of how people know about it, and the socialrelationships between people. Just because software has always beenpromoted a certain way, or that even it is promoted in a differentway does not mean we have to keep doing it that way.




I keep thinkingabout what you said, how asking questions is a skill that is honedwith practice, and not everyone has mastered it, and how it goes overdifferently with different audiences. Then you talk about all thosenewbie questions and how people just want their stuff to work. 




Why should peoplehave to answer endless newbie questions for free all the time, whycan’t that be a paid job? Why wouldn’t people pay someone tohold their hand and basically help them through everything?




A lot of thethinking about this kind of thing comes from people in the technologyspace, people who like to fool around for hours on end to get thingsto work, rather than just ask someone and have it done in fiveseconds. We have this fascination with technology and are happy to,for hours on end, get the search engines to hopefully bring inrelevant results and then tweak them until it works.




Yet, once you are inthe mindset of a tech person, how can you get into the mindset ofyour opposite, the marketing person selling memberships, themulti-level network marketer, a person whose focus is on people,marketing and selling, not technology? 




The thing withmarketing, is it is just as innovative as technology, and techniquesthat worked to get peoples attention and get them to buy are alwayschanging, and yet the principles are timeless. You have to get theproduct in front of an audience and convince people that it is theproduct for them, or that it is the service for them. 




So, with that I havesome questions. What if we improved tech support by bringing peoplein who speak the customers own language in terms they can understand? What if we brought people in whose strengths were not so focused onthe technology piece, but on the human piece, and focused on the waypeople use technology rather than trying to turn everyone into a techguru? 




I’ve oftenwondered if certain strategies used in marketing focused businessescould be used for tech support. What if the person selling thesupport could be responsible for the people they bring in, forgetting them the help that they want with freedom respectingsoftware? What if it was not about trying to save money, but peoplebuying a membership in a community where they feel welcome andunderstood? 




I’m only oneperson, and I certainly don’t have all the answers, and I don’texpect technology focused people to necessarily wrap their headsaround the idea that people are literally buying into this idea of acommunity and not a product or service. But, yet this is essentiallywhat the free software foundation is, and we need to take thisconcept and expand it. We need to reach new markets through peoplewhose primary interest is in marketing and relationships. 




I really think thisneeds to be discussed further. I do not think the issues areunsolvable, but that they will require always going outside of ourcommunities, but also going outside our own modes of thought andbecoming our opposites. 

    On Sunday, May 22, 2022, 08:56:00 PM EDT, Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:  
 
 With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the equals, and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero "come back later when you know know how to ask better questions", zero knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership - initially focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement.

 In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will be welcome!  They are not only welcome but will probably form the backbone of the society.

Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this.

In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an important part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus.

Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the software requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing as the bare minimum standard.

But it won't be just married to Free Software, either.  The software licensing is just a part its concern and it will also have discussions of how to take advantage of proprietary systems.

IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from accessing homepages built with Free Software.  Windows is proprietary but WSL2 makes available a Linux subsystem on top of it.

Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly good strategy, in my opinion.  If I may add, what else is a proprietary system good for, other than to make the transition to the Free? 

If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me personally 😄  - let's make it happen!

-Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 yasu@yasuaki.com http://yasuaki.com

On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> * Erica Frank <e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-19 22:30]:
>> It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has little
>> interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer public, and
>> this reply just reinforces my belief.
> 
> That is not true.
> 
> That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively true.
> 
> Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large
> companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo,
> including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is very
> out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little
> interest" in outreach to general public.
> 
> We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel.
> 
> GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman
> https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
> 
> But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only, there
> are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux on
> their computers.
> 
> How to Install Linux
> https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows
> https://www.educba.com/install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
> https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux
> 
> How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop
> https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US
> https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F
> 
> How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC
> https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html
> 
> How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks
> https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022]
> https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html
> 
> How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How
> https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac
> 
> How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html
> 
> How to install Linux - CNET
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim
> https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/
> 
> How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How
> https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10
> 
> Install WSL | Microsoft Docs
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
> 
> How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com
> https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/
> 
> How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com
> https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation
> 
> How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US
> https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc
> 
> The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com
> https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/
> 
> ▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022
> https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial
> 
> A Beginners’ Guide to Linux
> https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/
> 
> Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners
> https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tutorials/linux-tutorial/
> 
> Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks
> https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-administration/
> 
> Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide
> https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide/
> 
> The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu
> https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview
> 
> UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days
> https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html
> 
> Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command Line
> https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/
> 
> How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma
> https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/
> 
> Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet | Linuxlookup
> https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux
> 
> Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal
> https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-the-linux-terminal/
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog
> https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux
> https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beginners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux
> 
> Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating System - YouTube
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8
> 
> A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot
> https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/
> 
> Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar
> https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778
> 
> The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find within
> 10 seconds of work. It is my Dynamic Knowledge Repository that stores
> the information and that helps me to quickly reference it:
> 
> Hyperscope - Dynamic Knowledge Repository
> https://hyperscope.link/index.html
> 
> About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR)
> https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/
> 
> Thus one can objectively conclude that large number of largest
> companies, users and developers are interested to help beginners to
> get along with GNU/Linux systems.
> 
>> Stating that support for free software " is done on numerous mailing lists,
>> forums, IRC" - is not helpful.
> 
> I understand that you could not get help, sorry, I cannot know why
> exactly, maybe is problem with searching on Internet, or maybe
> accessing different ways of getting help.
> 
> There are also professionals who will come to your home and help you
> with whatever free software. You pay for service, and you get
> assistance. If you tell me where you are located, I can definitely
> find you people who can come and personally help you with
> installations or software. There are those teaching others
> computing.
> 
>> Yes, I can review the list of free software distros and install one
>> and go looking for support if I need it. But why would I?
> 
> Opps, I am reading your emails while answering. So you mean, that
> there is nothing for beginners, or you mean there is something for
> beginners, and you already found it, but it is not helpful because you
> would not install it. That is quite a different issue.
> 
> Nobody forces you to install anything. Who said GNU/Linux is for
> everybody. You have plenty of choices for computing, it is all your
> choice. 
> 
>> I don't see any value in switching from Windows to Linux, other than
>> an abstract sense of "I would not be supporting Microsoft's
>> attempted monopoly."
> 
> While it is not important for you, many people do understand the
> importance of free software.
> 
> What is Free Software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> And if you do not see the above free software freedoms as important,
> feel free to continue with proprietary software. It is your life, your
> information, your computer. 
> 
> There may be some other arguments for free software:
> 
> What Is Linux and Why Is It Important?
> https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/
> 
> Why Use Linux? Here are the Reasons Why You Should
> https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/
> 
>> (My adult daughters both use Linux because they were increasingly annoyed
>> with Windows' invasive OS. However, I use Windows for work; I don't have
>> the option to switch entirely. Several programs I use don't have Linux
>> versions, and my daughters' experiences with WINE make me leery of trying.
>> I can't afford to run into snags that take several hours to fix as I wade
>> through various help forums trying to find the one that has an answer that
>> actually works.)
> 
> That is how it is, life is not a dream.
> 
>> Ah. It sounds like you have infinite time available to work on software
>> projects, instead of using software to do things.
> 
> But how do you know it?
> 
> Did you ever come on idea that reason why developers develop software
> is because they are themselves using it to do things?
> 
> For example, I am developing my database, but probably 99.9% of time I
> spend using the database. The things I do are such as recording
> geographic positions, images, field reports into the database, any
> kind of information, indexing, then relating it to people, assigning
> tasks, projects, sending SMS from computer, initiating phone calls
> straight, faster from computer with quick to edit notes. Some of
> things I do is about to help Italian investors purchase coffee from
> Uganda, Russian people to find their gold mining sites, some
> individial businessmen to start their businesses. So I gave you on my
> personal example, how the time is available to do things.
> 
>> "Just search for a list of options, pick one of the three dozen
>> results, install that one, search for its help forums, figure out
>> how to join the relevant email lists, and ask for help; make sure to
>> provide the technical details they require and search for
>> definitions of the vocabulary used in the responses."
>>> 
>> That's fine for a personal project; it utterly fails as a premise for a
>> school or business switching to a less-popular OS. Again: Why would they
>> bother? They have an OS that works.
> 
> That such informational resources utterly fail like you say is unknown
> to me. But how do you know it?
> 
> Free software is not there for reason to be popular, more or less
> popular, the reasons I gave you are four freedoms. I do understand
> that people are drawn by what is popular, and that there are many
> other reasons for choices.
> 
> The role of Linux and computers in schools
> http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
> 
> Linux in Indiana Schools
> http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/
> 
> Indiana schools enroll Linux - CNET
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linux/
> 
> Which Linux distributions are best for schools? | Open School Solutions
> https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best-for-schools/
> 
> Best Educational Linux Distros for Children & Schools [2022]
> https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/
> 
> The role of Linux and computers in schools
> http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
> 
> That it utterly fails in schools can't objectively be said. 
> 
> Then if you are only in the US and speak only English, you may not
> have access to information in French, Italian, German and other
> foreign language speaking resource to understand how much GNU/Linux is
> used in schools.
> 
> Example:
> Linux in der Schule – Freie Open Source Software in der Schule
> https://linux-bildung.at/
> 
> For business I should not tell anything, we know that 56% developers
> are using GNU/Linux, those developers work for businesses.
> 
> In fact, you are using Gmail service that runs on GNU/Linux. That is
> far from Linux-based systems and "utterly" failing in businesses.
> 
> (13) Which Linux distribution does Google run on its production servers? - Quora
> https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-its-production-servers?share=1
> 
>> I do book publishing. I use InDesign for layout. I use Word to set up
>> documents with styles that import to InDesign. InDesign doesn't import
>> LaTeX docs, and a quick check says LaTeX won't save out as .doc.
>> I did some research into using LaTeX for layout, but could not confirm that
>> it had the necessary layout features. Most crucial was having standard text
>> lines match position across columns and pages, regardless of any irregular
>> formatting included. I remember also hearing about issues with
>> headers/footers, but the leading match was the key issue that convinced me
>> to stop looking at it.
> 
> Those are probably funamentally different tools, one is proprietary,
> other one LaTeX is free software running on any operating system, one
> is visual, other one is text setting software. They are hardly to be
> compared. But OK.
> 
> What you mention as most crucial reminds me of LaTeX features. 
> 
> I do not think that for quick visual placement of pictures and text,
> one shall use LaTeX. but it is possible, more visual tool is:
> 
> Get Scribus – Scribus
> https://www.scribus.net/downloads/
> 
> in connection with Gimp and Inkscape.
> 
> We are in different mind sets, as if you do not find a feature you
> need, you grab and stay with proprietary software.
> 
> And me, if I do not have a feature that I need, I find it and find
> solution and make it happen.
> 
> Because there is GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, TeX and LaTeX, there is
> LibreOffice, then me personally really satisfy all my graphics and
> desktop publishing related needs. 
> 
> But my mind set is different, as if I cannot get things done on
> GNU/Linux, I get things done on GNU/Linux. 
> 
> For me, proprietary software is not an option. 
> 
> Though on mobile phones is almost impossible to avoid it. And we use
> such phones in business. But then all proprietary software and Google
> applications get blocked, and researchers are sent to field, working
> with free software.
> 
>> Maybe it could work. But I'm not putting dozens of hours into
>> researching and learning the program to find out it can't. I need
>> complex and specific layout options, and searching the web has not
>> turned up info on whether LaTeX or other programs has those
>> features.
> 
> Learning is required.
> 
> I can tell you one thing -- back in 1999 I have been accomplishing any
> graphics needs with GNU/Linux like I am doing it today 2022. I was
> using back in time if I remember well, just XFig software, and I did
> make money with it, I have beend disseminating posters and flyers all
> over Stuttgart, Germany.
> 
>> I am not saying "everyone needs Word & similar programs." (Certainly not
>> saying "everyone needs InDesign or similar.") I'm saying that I haven't
>> found open-source software, much less free software, that covers my
>> professional document needs. That problem carries over for most businesses
>> and most schools.
> 
> You have not made specific request, maybe you should. 
> 
>> "People should be using markup instead of WYSIWYG" is a fine philosophical
>> statement but does absolutely nothing to convince people to use the
>> software. (Especially when support for markup languages varies greatly by
>> device and software.)
> 
> I don't think markup and visual tools do the same purpose. Anyway,
> make your specific request, there must be way to solve that issue of
> margins you said.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 26696 bytes --]

   I was reading your long email, and this has been on my mind for a long
   time, but in order to get the freedom respecting software technology
   into the hands of everyone for everything instead of proprietary
   software, what you have to solve is not a technology problem, but a
   marketing problem.

   If you think about how we got to the state we are in today, with
   proprietary software dominating in certain areas of computing, you have
   to remember that the reason for that is because of marketing, not
   because the products are better, but because of how people know about
   it, and the social relationships between people. Just because software
   has always been promoted a certain way, or that even it is promoted in
   a different way does not mean we have to keep doing it that way.

   I keep thinking about what you said, how asking questions is a skill
   that is honed with practice, and not everyone has mastered it, and how
   it goes over differently with different audiences. Then you talk about
   all those newbie questions and how people just want their stuff to
   work.

   Why should people have to answer endless newbie questions for free all
   the time, why can’t that be a paid job? Why wouldn’t people pay someone
   to hold their hand and basically help them through everything?

   A lot of the thinking about this kind of thing comes from people in the
   technology space, people who like to fool around for hours on end to
   get things to work, rather than just ask someone and have it done in
   five seconds. We have this fascination with technology and are happy
   to, for hours on end, get the search engines to hopefully bring in
   relevant results and then tweak them until it works.

   Yet, once you are in the mindset of a tech person, how can you get into
   the mindset of your opposite, the marketing person selling memberships,
   the multi-level network marketer, a person whose focus is on people,
   marketing and selling, not technology?

   The thing with marketing, is it is just as innovative as technology,
   and techniques that worked to get peoples attention and get them to buy
   are always changing, and yet the principles are timeless. You have to
   get the product in front of an audience and convince people that it is
   the product for them, or that it is the service for them.

   So, with that I have some questions. What if we improved tech support
   by bringing people in who speak the customers own language in terms
   they can understand? What if we brought people in whose strengths were
   not so focused on the technology piece, but on the human piece, and
   focused on the way people use technology rather than trying to turn
   everyone into a tech guru?

   I’ve often wondered if certain strategies used in marketing focused
   businesses could be used for tech support. What if the person selling
   the support could be responsible for the people they bring in, for
   getting them the help that they want with freedom respecting software?
   What if it was not about trying to save money, but people buying a
   membership in a community where they feel welcome and understood?

   I’m only one person, and I certainly don’t have all the answers, and I
   don’t expect technology focused people to necessarily wrap their heads
   around the idea that people are literally buying into this idea of a
   community and not a product or service. But, yet this is essentially
   what the free software foundation is, and we need to take this concept
   and expand it. We need to reach new markets through people whose
   primary interest is in marketing and relationships.

   I really think this needs to be discussed further. I do not think the
   issues are unsolvable, but that they will require always going outside
   of our communities, but also going outside our own modes of thought and
   becoming our opposites.

   On Sunday, May 22, 2022, 08:56:00 PM EDT, Yasuaki Kudo
   <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:
   With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons
   movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and
   rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the equals,
   and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero "come
   back later when you know know how to ask better questions", zero
   knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership - initially
   focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement.
   In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will be
   welcome!  They are not only welcome but will probably form the backbone
   of the society.
   Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as
   the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this.
   In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an important
   part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus.
   Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the software
   requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing as
   the bare minimum standard.
   But it won't be just married to Free Software, either.  The software
   licensing is just a part its concern and it will also have discussions
   of how to take advantage of proprietary systems.
   IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from
   accessing homepages built with Free Software.  Windows is proprietary
   but WSL2 makes available a Linux subsystem on top of it.
   Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly good
   strategy, in my opinion.  If I may add, what else is a proprietary
   system good for, other than to make the transition to the Free?
   If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me personally 😄
   - let's make it happen!
   -Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 [1]yasu@yasuaki.com [2]http://yasuaki.com
   On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis <[3]bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
   >
   > * Erica Frank <[4]e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-19 22:30]:
   >> It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has
   little
   >> interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer public,
   and
   >> this reply just reinforces my belief.
   >
   > That is not true.
   >
   > That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively true.
   >
   > Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large
   > companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo,
   > including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is very
   > out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little
   > interest" in outreach to general public.
   >
   > We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel.
   >
   > GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman
   > [5]https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
   >
   > But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only,
   there
   > are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux
   on
   > their computers.
   >
   > How to Install Linux
   > [6]https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/
   >
   > Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows
   > [7]https://www.educba.com/install-linux/
   >
   > How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
   > [8]https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux
   >
   > How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop
   > [9]https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/
   >
   > How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US
   >
   [10]https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-
   linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F
   >
   > How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC
   > [11]https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html
   >
   > How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks
   > [12]https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/
   >
   > How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022]
   >
   [13]https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-win
   dows-10.html
   >
   > How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How
   > [14]https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac
   >
   > How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide
   >
   [15]https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linu
   x-a-beginners-guide.html
   >
   > How to install Linux - CNET
   > [16]https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/
   >
   > How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim
   > [17]https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/
   >
   > How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How
   >
   [18]https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows
   -10
   >
   > Install WSL | Microsoft Docs
   > [19]https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
   >
   > How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com
   >
   [20]https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-inst
   alled/
   >
   > How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com
   > [21]https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation
   >
   > How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US
   >
   [22]https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-u
   buntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc
   >
   > The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com
   >
   [23]https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-l
   inux/
   >
   > ▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022
   > [24]https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial
   >
   > A Beginners’ Guide to Linux
   > [25]https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/
   >
   > Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners
   >
   [26]https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tu
   torials/linux-tutorial/
   >
   > Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks
   >
   [27]https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-admin
   istration/
   >
   > Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide
   >
   [28]https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide
   /
   >
   > The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu
   >
   [29]https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview
   >
   > UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days
   > [30]https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html
   >
   > Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command Line
   > [31]https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/
   >
   > How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma
   > [32]https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/
   >
   > Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet |
   Linuxlookup
   > [33]https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux
   >
   > Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal
   >
   [34]https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-t
   he-linux-terminal/
   >
   > A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog
   > [35]https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/
   >
   > A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux
   >
   [36]https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beg
   inners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux
   >
   > Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating System
   - YouTube
   > [37]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8
   >
   > A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot
   > [38]https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/
   >
   > Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar
   >
   [39]https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-
   s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778
   >
   > The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find
   within
   > 10 seconds of work. It is my Dynamic Knowledge Repository that stores
   > the information and that helps me to quickly reference it:
   >
   > Hyperscope - Dynamic Knowledge Repository
   > [40]https://hyperscope.link/index.html
   >
   > About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR)
   > [41]https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/
   >
   > Thus one can objectively conclude that large number of largest
   > companies, users and developers are interested to help beginners to
   > get along with GNU/Linux systems.
   >
   >> Stating that support for free software " is done on numerous mailing
   lists,
   >> forums, IRC" - is not helpful.
   >
   > I understand that you could not get help, sorry, I cannot know why
   > exactly, maybe is problem with searching on Internet, or maybe
   > accessing different ways of getting help.
   >
   > There are also professionals who will come to your home and help you
   > with whatever free software. You pay for service, and you get
   > assistance. If you tell me where you are located, I can definitely
   > find you people who can come and personally help you with
   > installations or software. There are those teaching others
   > computing.
   >
   >> Yes, I can review the list of free software distros and install one
   >> and go looking for support if I need it. But why would I?
   >
   > Opps, I am reading your emails while answering. So you mean, that
   > there is nothing for beginners, or you mean there is something for
   > beginners, and you already found it, but it is not helpful because
   you
   > would not install it. That is quite a different issue.
   >
   > Nobody forces you to install anything. Who said GNU/Linux is for
   > everybody. You have plenty of choices for computing, it is all your
   > choice.
   >
   >> I don't see any value in switching from Windows to Linux, other than
   >> an abstract sense of "I would not be supporting Microsoft's
   >> attempted monopoly."
   >
   > While it is not important for you, many people do understand the
   > importance of free software.
   >
   > What is Free Software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
   > [42]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
   >
   > And if you do not see the above free software freedoms as important,
   > feel free to continue with proprietary software. It is your life,
   your
   > information, your computer.
   >
   > There may be some other arguments for free software:
   >
   > What Is Linux and Why Is It Important?
   > [43]https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/
   >
   > Why Use Linux? Here are the Reasons Why You Should
   > [44]https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/
   >
   >> (My adult daughters both use Linux because they were increasingly
   annoyed
   >> with Windows' invasive OS. However, I use Windows for work; I don't
   have
   >> the option to switch entirely. Several programs I use don't have
   Linux
   >> versions, and my daughters' experiences with WINE make me leery of
   trying.
   >> I can't afford to run into snags that take several hours to fix as I
   wade
   >> through various help forums trying to find the one that has an
   answer that
   >> actually works.)
   >
   > That is how it is, life is not a dream.
   >
   >> Ah. It sounds like you have infinite time available to work on
   software
   >> projects, instead of using software to do things.
   >
   > But how do you know it?
   >
   > Did you ever come on idea that reason why developers develop software
   > is because they are themselves using it to do things?
   >
   > For example, I am developing my database, but probably 99.9% of time
   I
   > spend using the database. The things I do are such as recording
   > geographic positions, images, field reports into the database, any
   > kind of information, indexing, then relating it to people, assigning
   > tasks, projects, sending SMS from computer, initiating phone calls
   > straight, faster from computer with quick to edit notes. Some of
   > things I do is about to help Italian investors purchase coffee from
   > Uganda, Russian people to find their gold mining sites, some
   > individial businessmen to start their businesses. So I gave you on my
   > personal example, how the time is available to do things.
   >
   >> "Just search for a list of options, pick one of the three dozen
   >> results, install that one, search for its help forums, figure out
   >> how to join the relevant email lists, and ask for help; make sure to
   >> provide the technical details they require and search for
   >> definitions of the vocabulary used in the responses."
   >>>
   >> That's fine for a personal project; it utterly fails as a premise
   for a
   >> school or business switching to a less-popular OS. Again: Why would
   they
   >> bother? They have an OS that works.
   >
   > That such informational resources utterly fail like you say is
   unknown
   > to me. But how do you know it?
   >
   > Free software is not there for reason to be popular, more or less
   > popular, the reasons I gave you are four freedoms. I do understand
   > that people are drawn by what is popular, and that there are many
   > other reasons for choices.
   >
   > The role of Linux and computers in schools
   > [45]http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
   >
   > Linux in Indiana Schools
   > [46]http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/
   >
   > Indiana schools enroll Linux - CNET
   >
   [47]https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linu
   x/
   >
   > Which Linux distributions are best for schools? | Open School
   Solutions
   >
   [48]https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best-
   for-schools/
   >
   > Best Educational Linux Distros for Children & Schools [2022]
   > [49]https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/
   >
   > The role of Linux and computers in schools
   > [50]http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
   >
   > That it utterly fails in schools can't objectively be said.
   >
   > Then if you are only in the US and speak only English, you may not
   > have access to information in French, Italian, German and other
   > foreign language speaking resource to understand how much GNU/Linux
   is
   > used in schools.
   >
   > Example:
   > Linux in der Schule – Freie Open Source Software in der Schule
   > [51]https://linux-bildung.at/
   >
   > For business I should not tell anything, we know that 56% developers
   > are using GNU/Linux, those developers work for businesses.
   >
   > In fact, you are using Gmail service that runs on GNU/Linux. That is
   > far from Linux-based systems and "utterly" failing in businesses.
   >
   > (13) Which Linux distribution does Google run on its production
   servers? - Quora
   >
   [52]https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-i
   ts-production-servers?share=1
   >
   >> I do book publishing. I use InDesign for layout. I use Word to set
   up
   >> documents with styles that import to InDesign. InDesign doesn't
   import
   >> LaTeX docs, and a quick check says LaTeX won't save out as .doc.
   >> I did some research into using LaTeX for layout, but could not
   confirm that
   >> it had the necessary layout features. Most crucial was having
   standard text
   >> lines match position across columns and pages, regardless of any
   irregular
   >> formatting included. I remember also hearing about issues with
   >> headers/footers, but the leading match was the key issue that
   convinced me
   >> to stop looking at it.
   >
   > Those are probably funamentally different tools, one is proprietary,
   > other one LaTeX is free software running on any operating system, one
   > is visual, other one is text setting software. They are hardly to be
   > compared. But OK.
   >
   > What you mention as most crucial reminds me of LaTeX features.
   >
   > I do not think that for quick visual placement of pictures and text,
   > one shall use LaTeX. but it is possible, more visual tool is:
   >
   > Get Scribus – Scribus
   > [53]https://www.scribus.net/downloads/
   >
   > in connection with Gimp and Inkscape.
   >
   > We are in different mind sets, as if you do not find a feature you
   > need, you grab and stay with proprietary software.
   >
   > And me, if I do not have a feature that I need, I find it and find
   > solution and make it happen.
   >
   > Because there is GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, TeX and LaTeX, there is
   > LibreOffice, then me personally really satisfy all my graphics and
   > desktop publishing related needs.
   >
   > But my mind set is different, as if I cannot get things done on
   > GNU/Linux, I get things done on GNU/Linux.
   >
   > For me, proprietary software is not an option.
   >
   > Though on mobile phones is almost impossible to avoid it. And we use
   > such phones in business. But then all proprietary software and Google
   > applications get blocked, and researchers are sent to field, working
   > with free software.
   >
   >> Maybe it could work. But I'm not putting dozens of hours into
   >> researching and learning the program to find out it can't. I need
   >> complex and specific layout options, and searching the web has not
   >> turned up info on whether LaTeX or other programs has those
   >> features.
   >
   > Learning is required.
   >
   > I can tell you one thing -- back in 1999 I have been accomplishing
   any
   > graphics needs with GNU/Linux like I am doing it today 2022. I was
   > using back in time if I remember well, just XFig software, and I did
   > make money with it, I have beend disseminating posters and flyers all
   > over Stuttgart, Germany.
   >
   >> I am not saying "everyone needs Word & similar programs." (Certainly
   not
   >> saying "everyone needs InDesign or similar.") I'm saying that I
   haven't
   >> found open-source software, much less free software, that covers my
   >> professional document needs. That problem carries over for most
   businesses
   >> and most schools.
   >
   > You have not made specific request, maybe you should.
   >
   >> "People should be using markup instead of WYSIWYG" is a fine
   philosophical
   >> statement but does absolutely nothing to convince people to use the
   >> software. (Especially when support for markup languages varies
   greatly by
   >> device and software.)
   >
   > I don't think markup and visual tools do the same purpose. Anyway,
   > make your specific request, there must be way to solve that issue of
   > margins you said.
   >
   >
   > --
   > Jean
   >
   > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
   > [54]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
   >
   > In support of Richard M. Stallman
   > [55]https://stallmansupport.org/
   >
   > _______________________________________________
   > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
   > [56]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   >
   [57]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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   [59]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. mailto:yasu@yasuaki.com
   2. http://yasuaki.com/
   3. mailto:bugs@gnu.support
   4. mailto:e.lynn.frank@gmail.com
   5. https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
   6. https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/
   7. https://www.educba.com/install-linux/
   8. https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux
   9. https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/
  10. https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com%2F
  11. https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html
  12. https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/
  13. https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html
  14. https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac
  15. https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html
  16. https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/
  17. https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/
  18. https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10
  19. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
  20. https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/
  21. https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation
  22. https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc
  23. https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/
  24. https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial
  25. https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/
  26. https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tutorials/linux-tutorial/
  27. https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-administration/
  28. https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide/
  29. https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview
  30. https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html
  31. https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/
  32. https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/
  33. https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux
  34. https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-the-linux-terminal/
  35. https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/
  36. https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beginners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux
  37. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8
  38. https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/
  39. https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778
  40. https://hyperscope.link/index.html
  41. https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/
  42. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
  43. https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/
  44. https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/
  45. http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
  46. http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/
  47. https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linux/
  48. https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best-for-schools/
  49. https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/
  50. http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
  51. https://linux-bildung.at/
  52. https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-its-production-servers?share=1
  53. https://www.scribus.net/downloads/
  54. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
  55. https://stallmansupport.org/
  56. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  57. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  58. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  59. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?

[Thomas Lord]

On 2022-05-22 21:51, Jean Louis wrote:

> There are other mailing lists for that type of expressions. Maybe you
> should consider diversifying your interests.
> 

I didn't ask for your advice and don't welcome it, thanks.

-t



On 2022-05-22 21:51, Jean Louis wrote:
> * Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> [2022-05-19 18:06]:
>> 
>> Contacting the FSF is a total crap shoot.  In my experience,
>> if it isn't something immediately in their favor they are
>> a read only device.
> 
> There are other mailing lists for that type of expressions. Maybe you
> should consider diversifying your interests.
> 
>> That the FSF can't clearly state its actions and future
>> intentions via outreach to a general public outside
>> the movement, I think they need to re-read their charter
>> and application for NPO status.
> 
> Their website is very clear https://www.fsf.org
> 
> 
> 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)

[yasu]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 52937 bytes --]

Hello!

So I created these places:

https://mobilizon.fr/@digital_commons
https://github.com/yugawara/digitalcommons

I hope like-minded people can start to add contents and we can make it
better over a long time!

I can make anyone intested an 'Administrator'.

My hope is that we can put together our collective thoughts and analyze
them.

There are endless possibilities here - we can collect links, develop
software, anything we want!

Regarding 'marketing', that's definitely important - we can share
information and develop strategies here!

-Yasu





On Mon, 2022-05-23 at 15:38 +0000, Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss
wrote:
>  
>  
> I was reading yourlong email, and this has been on my mind for a long
> time, but inorder to get the freedom respecting software technology
> into thehands of everyone for everything instead of proprietary
> software,what you have to solve is not a technology problem, but a
> marketingproblem. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think abouthow we got to the state we are in today, with
> proprietary softwaredominating in certain areas of computing, you
> have to remember thatthe reason for that is because of marketing, not
> because the productsare better, but because of how people know about
> it, and the socialrelationships between people. Just because software
> has always beenpromoted a certain way, or that even it is promoted in
> a differentway does not mean we have to keep doing it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I keep thinkingabout what you said, how asking questions is a skill
> that is honedwith practice, and not everyone has mastered it, and how
> it goes overdifferently with different audiences. Then you talk about
> all thosenewbie questions and how people just want their stuff to
> work. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should peoplehave to answer endless newbie questions for free all
> the time, whycan’t that be a paid job? Why wouldn’t people pay
> someone tohold their hand and basically help them through everything?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of thethinking about this kind of thing comes from people in
> the technologyspace, people who like to fool around for hours on end
> to get thingsto work, rather than just ask someone and have it done
> in fiveseconds. We have this fascination with technology and are
> happy to,for hours on end, get the search engines to hopefully bring
> inrelevant results and then tweak them until it works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet, once you are inthe mindset of a tech person, how can you get
> into the mindset ofyour opposite, the marketing person selling
> memberships, themulti-level network marketer, a person whose focus is
> on people,marketing and selling, not technology? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thing withmarketing, is it is just as innovative as technology,
> and techniquesthat worked to get peoples attention and get them to
> buy are alwayschanging, and yet the principles are timeless. You have
> to get theproduct in front of an audience and convince people that it
> is theproduct for them, or that it is the service for them. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, with that I havesome questions. What if we improved tech support
> by bringing peoplein who speak the customers own language in terms
> they can understand? What if we brought people in whose strengths
> were not so focused onthe technology piece, but on the human piece,
> and focused on the waypeople use technology rather than trying to
> turn everyone into a techguru? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve oftenwondered if certain strategies used in marketing focused
> businessescould be used for tech support. What if the person selling
> thesupport could be responsible for the people they bring in,
> forgetting them the help that they want with freedom
> respectingsoftware? What if it was not about trying to save money,
> but peoplebuying a membership in a community where they feel welcome
> andunderstood? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m only oneperson, and I certainly don’t have all the answers, and I
> don’texpect technology focused people to necessarily wrap their
> headsaround the idea that people are literally buying into this idea
> of acommunity and not a product or service. But, yet this is
> essentiallywhat the free software foundation is, and we need to take
> thisconcept and expand it. We need to reach new markets through
> peoplewhose primary interest is in marketing and relationships. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really think thisneeds to be discussed further. I do not think the
> issues areunsolvable, but that they will require always going outside
> of ourcommunities, but also going outside our own modes of thought
> andbecoming our opposites. 
> 
>     On Sunday, May 22, 2022, 08:56:00 PM EDT, Yasuaki Kudo
> <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:  
>  
>  With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons
> movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and
> rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the
> equals, and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy,
> zero "come back later when you know know how to ask better
> questions", zero knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership
> - initially focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement.
> 
>  In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will
> be welcome!  They are not only welcome but will probably form the
> backbone of the society.
> 
> Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as
> the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this.
> 
> In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an important
> part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus.
> 
> Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the software
> requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing as
> the bare minimum standard.
> 
> But it won't be just married to Free Software, either.  The software
> licensing is just a part its concern and it will also have
> discussions of how to take advantage of proprietary systems.
> 
> IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from
> accessing homepages built with Free Software.  Windows is proprietary
> but WSL2 makes available a Linux subsystem on top of it.
> 
> Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly good
> strategy, in my opinion.  If I may add, what else is a proprietary
> system good for, other than to make the transition to the Free? 
> 
> If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me personally
> 😄  - let's make it happen!
> 
> -Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 yasu@yasuaki.com http://yasuaki.com
> 
> On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> > 
> > * Erica Frank <e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-19 22:30]:
> > > It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has
> > > little
> > > interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer
> > > public, and
> > > this reply just reinforces my belief.
> > 
> > That is not true.
> > 
> > That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively
> > true.
> > 
> > Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large
> > companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo,
> > including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is
> > very
> > out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little
> > interest" in outreach to general public.
> > 
> > We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel.
> > 
> > GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman
> > https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
> > 
> > But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only,
> > there
> > are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux
> > on
> > their computers.
> > 
> > How to Install Linux
> > https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/
> > 
> > Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows
> > https://www.educba.com/install-linux/
> > 
> > How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
> > https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux
> > 
> > How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop
> > https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/
> > 
> > How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US
> > https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F
> > 
> > How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC
> > https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html
> > 
> > How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks
> > https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/
> > 
> > How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022]
> > https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html
> > 
> > How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How
> > https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac
> > 
> > How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide
> > https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html
> > 
> > How to install Linux - CNET
> > https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/
> > 
> > How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim
> > https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/
> > 
> > How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How
> > https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10
> > 
> > Install WSL | Microsoft Docs
> > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
> > 
> > How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com
> > https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/
> > 
> > How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com
> > https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation
> > 
> > How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US
> > https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc
> > 
> > The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com
> > https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/
> > 
> > ▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022
> > https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial
> > 
> > A Beginners’ Guide to Linux
> > https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/
> > 
> > Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners
> > https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tutorials/linux-tutorial/
> > 
> > Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks
> > https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-administration/
> > 
> > Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide
> > https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide/
> > 
> > The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu
> > https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview
> > 
> > UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days
> > https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html
> > 
> > Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command
> > Line
> > https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/
> > 
> > How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma
> > https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/
> > 
> > Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet |
> > Linuxlookup
> > https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux
> > 
> > Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal
> > https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-the-linux-terminal/
> > 
> > A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog
> > https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/
> > 
> > A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux
> > https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beginners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux
> > 
> > Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating
> > System - YouTube
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8
> > 
> > A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot
> > https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/
> > 
> > Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar
> > https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778
> > 
> > The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find
> > within
> > 10 seconds of work. It is my Dynamic Knowledge Repository that
> > stores
> > the information and that helps me to quickly reference it:
> > 
> > Hyperscope - Dynamic Knowledge Repository
> > https://hyperscope.link/index.html
> > 
> > About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR)
> > https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/
> > 
> > Thus one can objectively conclude that large number of largest
> > companies, users and developers are interested to help beginners to
> > get along with GNU/Linux systems.
> > 
> > > Stating that support for free software " is done on numerous
> > > mailing lists,
> > > forums, IRC" - is not helpful.
> > 
> > I understand that you could not get help, sorry, I cannot know why
> > exactly, maybe is problem with searching on Internet, or maybe
> > accessing different ways of getting help.
> > 
> > There are also professionals who will come to your home and help
> > you
> > with whatever free software. You pay for service, and you get
> > assistance. If you tell me where you are located, I can definitely
> > find you people who can come and personally help you with
> > installations or software. There are those teaching others
> > computing.
> > 
> > > Yes, I can review the list of free software distros and install
> > > one
> > > and go looking for support if I need it. But why would I?
> > 
> > Opps, I am reading your emails while answering. So you mean, that
> > there is nothing for beginners, or you mean there is something for
> > beginners, and you already found it, but it is not helpful because
> > you
> > would not install it. That is quite a different issue.
> > 
> > Nobody forces you to install anything. Who said GNU/Linux is for
> > everybody. You have plenty of choices for computing, it is all your
> > choice. 
> > 
> > > I don't see any value in switching from Windows to Linux, other
> > > than
> > > an abstract sense of "I would not be supporting Microsoft's
> > > attempted monopoly."
> > 
> > While it is not important for you, many people do understand the
> > importance of free software.
> > 
> > What is Free Software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
> > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> > 
> > And if you do not see the above free software freedoms as
> > important,
> > feel free to continue with proprietary software. It is your life,
> > your
> > information, your computer. 
> > 
> > There may be some other arguments for free software:
> > 
> > What Is Linux and Why Is It Important?
> > https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/
> > 
> > Why Use Linux? Here are the Reasons Why You Should
> > https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/
> > 
> > > (My adult daughters both use Linux because they were increasingly
> > > annoyed
> > > with Windows' invasive OS. However, I use Windows for work; I
> > > don't have
> > > the option to switch entirely. Several programs I use don't have
> > > Linux
> > > versions, and my daughters' experiences with WINE make me leery
> > > of trying.
> > > I can't afford to run into snags that take several hours to fix
> > > as I wade
> > > through various help forums trying to find the one that has an
> > > answer that
> > > actually works.)
> > 
> > That is how it is, life is not a dream.
> > 
> > > Ah. It sounds like you have infinite time available to work on
> > > software
> > > projects, instead of using software to do things.
> > 
> > But how do you know it?
> > 
> > Did you ever come on idea that reason why developers develop
> > software
> > is because they are themselves using it to do things?
> > 
> > For example, I am developing my database, but probably 99.9% of
> > time I
> > spend using the database. The things I do are such as recording
> > geographic positions, images, field reports into the database, any
> > kind of information, indexing, then relating it to people,
> > assigning
> > tasks, projects, sending SMS from computer, initiating phone calls
> > straight, faster from computer with quick to edit notes. Some of
> > things I do is about to help Italian investors purchase coffee from
> > Uganda, Russian people to find their gold mining sites, some
> > individial businessmen to start their businesses. So I gave you on
> > my
> > personal example, how the time is available to do things.
> > 
> > > "Just search for a list of options, pick one of the three dozen
> > > results, install that one, search for its help forums, figure out
> > > how to join the relevant email lists, and ask for help; make sure
> > > to
> > > provide the technical details they require and search for
> > > definitions of the vocabulary used in the responses."
> > > > 
> > > That's fine for a personal project; it utterly fails as a premise
> > > for a
> > > school or business switching to a less-popular OS. Again: Why
> > > would they
> > > bother? They have an OS that works.
> > 
> > That such informational resources utterly fail like you say is
> > unknown
> > to me. But how do you know it?
> > 
> > Free software is not there for reason to be popular, more or less
> > popular, the reasons I gave you are four freedoms. I do understand
> > that people are drawn by what is popular, and that there are many
> > other reasons for choices.
> > 
> > The role of Linux and computers in schools
> > http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
> > 
> > Linux in Indiana Schools
> > http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/
> > 
> > Indiana schools enroll Linux - CNET
> > https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linux/
> > 
> > Which Linux distributions are best for schools? | Open School
> > Solutions
> > https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best-for-schools/
> > 
> > Best Educational Linux Distros for Children & Schools [2022]
> > https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/
> > 
> > The role of Linux and computers in schools
> > http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
> > 
> > That it utterly fails in schools can't objectively be said. 
> > 
> > Then if you are only in the US and speak only English, you may not
> > have access to information in French, Italian, German and other
> > foreign language speaking resource to understand how much GNU/Linux
> > is
> > used in schools.
> > 
> > Example:
> > Linux in der Schule – Freie Open Source Software in der Schule
> > https://linux-bildung.at/
> > 
> > For business I should not tell anything, we know that 56%
> > developers
> > are using GNU/Linux, those developers work for businesses.
> > 
> > In fact, you are using Gmail service that runs on GNU/Linux. That
> > is
> > far from Linux-based systems and "utterly" failing in businesses.
> > 
> > (13) Which Linux distribution does Google run on its production
> > servers? - Quora
> > https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-its-production-servers?share=1
> > 
> > > I do book publishing. I use InDesign for layout. I use Word to
> > > set up
> > > documents with styles that import to InDesign. InDesign doesn't
> > > import
> > > LaTeX docs, and a quick check says LaTeX won't save out as .doc.
> > > I did some research into using LaTeX for layout, but could not
> > > confirm that
> > > it had the necessary layout features. Most crucial was having
> > > standard text
> > > lines match position across columns and pages, regardless of any
> > > irregular
> > > formatting included. I remember also hearing about issues with
> > > headers/footers, but the leading match was the key issue that
> > > convinced me
> > > to stop looking at it.
> > 
> > Those are probably funamentally different tools, one is
> > proprietary,
> > other one LaTeX is free software running on any operating system,
> > one
> > is visual, other one is text setting software. They are hardly to
> > be
> > compared. But OK.
> > 
> > What you mention as most crucial reminds me of LaTeX features. 
> > 
> > I do not think that for quick visual placement of pictures and
> > text,
> > one shall use LaTeX. but it is possible, more visual tool is:
> > 
> > Get Scribus – Scribus
> > https://www.scribus.net/downloads/
> > 
> > in connection with Gimp and Inkscape.
> > 
> > We are in different mind sets, as if you do not find a feature you
> > need, you grab and stay with proprietary software.
> > 
> > And me, if I do not have a feature that I need, I find it and find
> > solution and make it happen.
> > 
> > Because there is GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, TeX and LaTeX, there is
> > LibreOffice, then me personally really satisfy all my graphics and
> > desktop publishing related needs. 
> > 
> > But my mind set is different, as if I cannot get things done on
> > GNU/Linux, I get things done on GNU/Linux. 
> > 
> > For me, proprietary software is not an option. 
> > 
> > Though on mobile phones is almost impossible to avoid it. And we
> > use
> > such phones in business. But then all proprietary software and
> > Google
> > applications get blocked, and researchers are sent to field,
> > working
> > with free software.
> > 
> > > Maybe it could work. But I'm not putting dozens of hours into
> > > researching and learning the program to find out it can't. I need
> > > complex and specific layout options, and searching the web has
> > > not
> > > turned up info on whether LaTeX or other programs has those
> > > features.
> > 
> > Learning is required.
> > 
> > I can tell you one thing -- back in 1999 I have been accomplishing
> > any
> > graphics needs with GNU/Linux like I am doing it today 2022. I was
> > using back in time if I remember well, just XFig software, and I
> > did
> > make money with it, I have beend disseminating posters and flyers
> > all
> > over Stuttgart, Germany.
> > 
> > > I am not saying "everyone needs Word & similar programs."
> > > (Certainly not
> > > saying "everyone needs InDesign or similar.") I'm saying that I
> > > haven't
> > > found open-source software, much less free software, that covers
> > > my
> > > professional document needs. That problem carries over for most
> > > businesses
> > > and most schools.
> > 
> > You have not made specific request, maybe you should. 
> > 
> > > "People should be using markup instead of WYSIWYG" is a fine
> > > philosophical
> > > statement but does absolutely nothing to convince people to use
> > > the
> > > software. (Especially when support for markup languages varies
> > > greatly by
> > > device and software.)
> > 
> > I don't think markup and visual tools do the same purpose. Anyway,
> > make your specific request, there must be way to solve that issue
> > of
> > margins you said.
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Jean
> > 
> > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> > 
> > In support of Richard M. Stallman
> > https://stallmansupport.org/
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>   
>    I was reading your long email, and this has been on my mind for a
> long
>    time, but in order to get the freedom respecting software
> technology
>    into the hands of everyone for everything instead of proprietary
>    software, what you have to solve is not a technology problem, but
> a
>    marketing problem.
> 
>    If you think about how we got to the state we are in today, with
>    proprietary software dominating in certain areas of computing, you
> have
>    to remember that the reason for that is because of marketing, not
>    because the products are better, but because of how people know
> about
>    it, and the social relationships between people. Just because
> software
>    has always been promoted a certain way, or that even it is
> promoted in
>    a different way does not mean we have to keep doing it that way.
> 
>    I keep thinking about what you said, how asking questions is a
> skill
>    that is honed with practice, and not everyone has mastered it, and
> how
>    it goes over differently with different audiences. Then you talk
> about
>    all those newbie questions and how people just want their stuff to
>    work.
> 
>    Why should people have to answer endless newbie questions for free
> all
>    the time, why can’t that be a paid job? Why wouldn’t people pay
> someone
>    to hold their hand and basically help them through everything?
> 
>    A lot of the thinking about this kind of thing comes from people
> in the
>    technology space, people who like to fool around for hours on end
> to
>    get things to work, rather than just ask someone and have it done
> in
>    five seconds. We have this fascination with technology and are
> happy
>    to, for hours on end, get the search engines to hopefully bring in
>    relevant results and then tweak them until it works.
> 
>    Yet, once you are in the mindset of a tech person, how can you get
> into
>    the mindset of your opposite, the marketing person selling
> memberships,
>    the multi-level network marketer, a person whose focus is on
> people,
>    marketing and selling, not technology?
> 
>    The thing with marketing, is it is just as innovative as
> technology,
>    and techniques that worked to get peoples attention and get them
> to buy
>    are always changing, and yet the principles are timeless. You have
> to
>    get the product in front of an audience and convince people that
> it is
>    the product for them, or that it is the service for them.
> 
>    So, with that I have some questions. What if we improved tech
> support
>    by bringing people in who speak the customers own language in
> terms
>    they can understand? What if we brought people in whose strengths
> were
>    not so focused on the technology piece, but on the human piece,
> and
>    focused on the way people use technology rather than trying to
> turn
>    everyone into a tech guru?
> 
>    I’ve often wondered if certain strategies used in marketing
> focused
>    businesses could be used for tech support. What if the person
> selling
>    the support could be responsible for the people they bring in, for
>    getting them the help that they want with freedom respecting
> software?
>    What if it was not about trying to save money, but people buying a
>    membership in a community where they feel welcome and understood?
> 
>    I’m only one person, and I certainly don’t have all the answers,
> and I
>    don’t expect technology focused people to necessarily wrap their
> heads
>    around the idea that people are literally buying into this idea of
> a
>    community and not a product or service. But, yet this is
> essentially
>    what the free software foundation is, and we need to take this
> concept
>    and expand it. We need to reach new markets through people whose
>    primary interest is in marketing and relationships.
> 
>    I really think this needs to be discussed further. I do not think
> the
>    issues are unsolvable, but that they will require always going
> outside
>    of our communities, but also going outside our own modes of
> thought and
>    becoming our opposites.
> 
>    On Sunday, May 22, 2022, 08:56:00 PM EDT, Yasuaki Kudo
>    <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:
>    With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons
>    movement", if you will, a community where people learn together
> and
>    rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the
> equals,
>    and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero
> "come
>    back later when you know know how to ask better questions", zero
>    knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership - initially
>    focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement.
>    In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement
> will be
>    welcome!  They are not only welcome but will probably form the
> backbone
>    of the society.
>    Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such
> as
>    the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this.
>    In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an
> important
>    part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus.
>    Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the
> software
>    requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing
> as
>    the bare minimum standard.
>    But it won't be just married to Free Software, either.  The
> software
>    licensing is just a part its concern and it will also have
> discussions
>    of how to take advantage of proprietary systems.
>    IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from
>    accessing homepages built with Free Software.  Windows is
> proprietary
>    but WSL2 makes available a Linux subsystem on top of it.
>    Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly
> good
>    strategy, in my opinion.  If I may add, what else is a proprietary
>    system good for, other than to make the transition to the Free?
>    If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me
> personally 😄
>    - let's make it happen!
>    -Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 [1]yasu@yasuaki.com [2]http://yasuaki.com
>    On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis <[3]bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>    >
>    > * Erica Frank <[4]e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-19 22:30]:
>    >> It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement
> has
>    little
>    >> interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer
> public,
>    and
>    >> this reply just reinforces my belief.
>    >
>    > That is not true.
>    >
>    > That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively
> true.
>    >
>    > Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many
> large
>    > companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo,
>    > including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is
> very
>    > out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has
> "little
>    > interest" in outreach to general public.
>    >
>    > We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel.
>    >
>    > GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman
>    > [5]https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
>    >
>    > But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only,
>    there
>    > are many many online references guiding people to install
> GNU/Linux
>    on
>    > their computers.
>    >
>    > How to Install Linux
>    > [6]https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/
>    >
>    > Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in
> Windows
>    > [7]https://www.educba.com/install-linux/
>    >
>    > How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
>    > [8]https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux
>    >
>    > How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop
>    > [9]https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/
>    >
>    > How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US
>    >
>   
> [10]https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install
> -
>    linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F
>    >
>    > How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC
>    > [11]https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html
>    >
>    > How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks
>    > [12]https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/
>    >
>    > How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide
> 2022]
>    >
>   
> [13]https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-win
>    dows-10.html
>    >
>    > How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How
>    >
> [14]https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac
>    >
>    > How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide
>    >
>   
> [15]https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linu
>    x-a-beginners-guide.html
>    >
>    > How to install Linux - CNET
>    > [16]https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/
>    >
>    > How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim
>    > [17]https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/
>    >
>    > How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How
>    >
>   
> [18]https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows
>    -10
>    >
>    > Install WSL | Microsoft Docs
>    > [19]https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
>    >
>    > How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com
>    >
>   
> [20]https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-inst
>    alled/
>    >
>    > How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com
>    > [21]https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation
>    >
>    > How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US
>    >
>   
> [22]https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-u
>    buntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc
>    >
>    > The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com
>    >
>   
> [23]https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-l
>    inux/
>    >
>    > ▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022
>    > [24]https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial
>    >
>    > A Beginners’ Guide to Linux
>    > [25]https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/
>    >
>    > Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners
>    >
>   
> [26]https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tu
>    torials/linux-tutorial/
>    >
>    > Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks
>    >
>   
> [27]https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-admin
>    istration/
>    >
>    > Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide
>    >
>   
> [28]https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide
>    /
>    >
>    > The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu
>    >
>   
> [29]https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview
>    >
>    > UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days
>    > [30]https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html
>    >
>    > Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command
> Line
>    > [31]https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/
>    >
>    > How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma
>    > [32]https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/
>    >
>    > Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet |
>    Linuxlookup
>    > [33]https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux
>    >
>    > Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal
>    >
>   
> [34]https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-t
>    he-linux-terminal/
>    >
>    > A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog
>    > [35]https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/
>    >
>    > A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux
>    >
>   
> [36]https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beg
>    inners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux
>    >
>    > Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating
> System
>    - YouTube
>    > [37]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8
>    >
>    > A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot
>    >
> [38]https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/
>    >
>    > Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar
>    >
>   
> [39]https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner
> -
>    s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778
>    >
>    > The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find
>    within
>    > 10 seconds of work. It is my Dynamic Knowledge Repository that
> stores
>    > the information and that helps me to quickly reference it:
>    >
>    > Hyperscope - Dynamic Knowledge Repository
>    > [40]https://hyperscope.link/index.html
>    >
>    > About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR)
>    > [41]https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/
>    >
>    > Thus one can objectively conclude that large number of largest
>    > companies, users and developers are interested to help beginners
> to
>    > get along with GNU/Linux systems.
>    >
>    >> Stating that support for free software " is done on numerous
> mailing
>    lists,
>    >> forums, IRC" - is not helpful.
>    >
>    > I understand that you could not get help, sorry, I cannot know
> why
>    > exactly, maybe is problem with searching on Internet, or maybe
>    > accessing different ways of getting help.
>    >
>    > There are also professionals who will come to your home and help
> you
>    > with whatever free software. You pay for service, and you get
>    > assistance. If you tell me where you are located, I can
> definitely
>    > find you people who can come and personally help you with
>    > installations or software. There are those teaching others
>    > computing.
>    >
>    >> Yes, I can review the list of free software distros and install
> one
>    >> and go looking for support if I need it. But why would I?
>    >
>    > Opps, I am reading your emails while answering. So you mean,
> that
>    > there is nothing for beginners, or you mean there is something
> for
>    > beginners, and you already found it, but it is not helpful
> because
>    you
>    > would not install it. That is quite a different issue.
>    >
>    > Nobody forces you to install anything. Who said GNU/Linux is for
>    > everybody. You have plenty of choices for computing, it is all
> your
>    > choice.
>    >
>    >> I don't see any value in switching from Windows to Linux, other
> than
>    >> an abstract sense of "I would not be supporting Microsoft's
>    >> attempted monopoly."
>    >
>    > While it is not important for you, many people do understand the
>    > importance of free software.
>    >
>    > What is Free Software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
>    > [42]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>    >
>    > And if you do not see the above free software freedoms as
> important,
>    > feel free to continue with proprietary software. It is your
> life,
>    your
>    > information, your computer.
>    >
>    > There may be some other arguments for free software:
>    >
>    > What Is Linux and Why Is It Important?
>    > [43]https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/
>    >
>    > Why Use Linux? Here are the Reasons Why You Should
>    > [44]https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/
>    >
>    >> (My adult daughters both use Linux because they were
> increasingly
>    annoyed
>    >> with Windows' invasive OS. However, I use Windows for work; I
> don't
>    have
>    >> the option to switch entirely. Several programs I use don't
> have
>    Linux
>    >> versions, and my daughters' experiences with WINE make me leery
> of
>    trying.
>    >> I can't afford to run into snags that take several hours to fix
> as I
>    wade
>    >> through various help forums trying to find the one that has an
>    answer that
>    >> actually works.)
>    >
>    > That is how it is, life is not a dream.
>    >
>    >> Ah. It sounds like you have infinite time available to work on
>    software
>    >> projects, instead of using software to do things.
>    >
>    > But how do you know it?
>    >
>    > Did you ever come on idea that reason why developers develop
> software
>    > is because they are themselves using it to do things?
>    >
>    > For example, I am developing my database, but probably 99.9% of
> time
>    I
>    > spend using the database. The things I do are such as recording
>    > geographic positions, images, field reports into the database,
> any
>    > kind of information, indexing, then relating it to people,
> assigning
>    > tasks, projects, sending SMS from computer, initiating phone
> calls
>    > straight, faster from computer with quick to edit notes. Some of
>    > things I do is about to help Italian investors purchase coffee
> from
>    > Uganda, Russian people to find their gold mining sites, some
>    > individial businessmen to start their businesses. So I gave you
> on my
>    > personal example, how the time is available to do things.
>    >
>    >> "Just search for a list of options, pick one of the three dozen
>    >> results, install that one, search for its help forums, figure
> out
>    >> how to join the relevant email lists, and ask for help; make
> sure to
>    >> provide the technical details they require and search for
>    >> definitions of the vocabulary used in the responses."
>    >>>
>    >> That's fine for a personal project; it utterly fails as a
> premise
>    for a
>    >> school or business switching to a less-popular OS. Again: Why
> would
>    they
>    >> bother? They have an OS that works.
>    >
>    > That such informational resources utterly fail like you say is
>    unknown
>    > to me. But how do you know it?
>    >
>    > Free software is not there for reason to be popular, more or
> less
>    > popular, the reasons I gave you are four freedoms. I do
> understand
>    > that people are drawn by what is popular, and that there are
> many
>    > other reasons for choices.
>    >
>    > The role of Linux and computers in schools
>    > [45]http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
>    >
>    > Linux in Indiana Schools
>    > [46]http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/
>    >
>    > Indiana schools enroll Linux - CNET
>    >
>   
> [47]https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linu
>    x/
>    >
>    > Which Linux distributions are best for schools? | Open School
>    Solutions
>    >
>   
> [48]https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best
> -
>    for-schools/
>    >
>    > Best Educational Linux Distros for Children & Schools [2022]
>    > [49]https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/
>    >
>    > The role of Linux and computers in schools
>    > [50]http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
>    >
>    > That it utterly fails in schools can't objectively be said.
>    >
>    > Then if you are only in the US and speak only English, you may
> not
>    > have access to information in French, Italian, German and other
>    > foreign language speaking resource to understand how much
> GNU/Linux
>    is
>    > used in schools.
>    >
>    > Example:
>    > Linux in der Schule – Freie Open Source Software in der Schule
>    > [51]https://linux-bildung.at/
>    >
>    > For business I should not tell anything, we know that 56%
> developers
>    > are using GNU/Linux, those developers work for businesses.
>    >
>    > In fact, you are using Gmail service that runs on GNU/Linux.
> That is
>    > far from Linux-based systems and "utterly" failing in
> businesses.
>    >
>    > (13) Which Linux distribution does Google run on its production
>    servers? - Quora
>    >
>   
> [52]https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-i
>    ts-production-servers?share=1
>    >
>    >> I do book publishing. I use InDesign for layout. I use Word to
> set
>    up
>    >> documents with styles that import to InDesign. InDesign doesn't
>    import
>    >> LaTeX docs, and a quick check says LaTeX won't save out as
> .doc.
>    >> I did some research into using LaTeX for layout, but could not
>    confirm that
>    >> it had the necessary layout features. Most crucial was having
>    standard text
>    >> lines match position across columns and pages, regardless of
> any
>    irregular
>    >> formatting included. I remember also hearing about issues with
>    >> headers/footers, but the leading match was the key issue that
>    convinced me
>    >> to stop looking at it.
>    >
>    > Those are probably funamentally different tools, one is
> proprietary,
>    > other one LaTeX is free software running on any operating
> system, one
>    > is visual, other one is text setting software. They are hardly
> to be
>    > compared. But OK.
>    >
>    > What you mention as most crucial reminds me of LaTeX features.
>    >
>    > I do not think that for quick visual placement of pictures and
> text,
>    > one shall use LaTeX. but it is possible, more visual tool is:
>    >
>    > Get Scribus – Scribus
>    > [53]https://www.scribus.net/downloads/
>    >
>    > in connection with Gimp and Inkscape.
>    >
>    > We are in different mind sets, as if you do not find a feature
> you
>    > need, you grab and stay with proprietary software.
>    >
>    > And me, if I do not have a feature that I need, I find it and
> find
>    > solution and make it happen.
>    >
>    > Because there is GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, TeX and LaTeX, there
> is
>    > LibreOffice, then me personally really satisfy all my graphics
> and
>    > desktop publishing related needs.
>    >
>    > But my mind set is different, as if I cannot get things done on
>    > GNU/Linux, I get things done on GNU/Linux.
>    >
>    > For me, proprietary software is not an option.
>    >
>    > Though on mobile phones is almost impossible to avoid it. And we
> use
>    > such phones in business. But then all proprietary software and
> Google
>    > applications get blocked, and researchers are sent to field,
> working
>    > with free software.
>    >
>    >> Maybe it could work. But I'm not putting dozens of hours into
>    >> researching and learning the program to find out it can't. I
> need
>    >> complex and specific layout options, and searching the web has
> not
>    >> turned up info on whether LaTeX or other programs has those
>    >> features.
>    >
>    > Learning is required.
>    >
>    > I can tell you one thing -- back in 1999 I have been
> accomplishing
>    any
>    > graphics needs with GNU/Linux like I am doing it today 2022. I
> was
>    > using back in time if I remember well, just XFig software, and I
> did
>    > make money with it, I have beend disseminating posters and
> flyers all
>    > over Stuttgart, Germany.
>    >
>    >> I am not saying "everyone needs Word & similar programs."
> (Certainly
>    not
>    >> saying "everyone needs InDesign or similar.") I'm saying that I
>    haven't
>    >> found open-source software, much less free software, that
> covers my
>    >> professional document needs. That problem carries over for most
>    businesses
>    >> and most schools.
>    >
>    > You have not made specific request, maybe you should.
>    >
>    >> "People should be using markup instead of WYSIWYG" is a fine
>    philosophical
>    >> statement but does absolutely nothing to convince people to use
> the
>    >> software. (Especially when support for markup languages varies
>    greatly by
>    >> device and software.)
>    >
>    > I don't think markup and visual tools do the same purpose.
> Anyway,
>    > make your specific request, there must be way to solve that
> issue of
>    > margins you said.
>    >
>    >
>    > --
>    > Jean
>    >
>    > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>    > [54]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>    >
>    > In support of Richard M. Stallman
>    > [55]https://stallmansupport.org/
>    >
>    > _______________________________________________
>    > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>    > [56]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    >
>   
> [57]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    _______________________________________________
>    libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>    [58]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   
> [59]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> References
> 
>    1. mailto:yasu@yasuaki.com
>    2. http://yasuaki.com/
>    3. mailto:bugs@gnu.support
>    4. mailto:e.lynn.frank@gmail.com
>    5. https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
>    6. https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/
>    7. https://www.educba.com/install-linux/
>    8. https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux
>    9. https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/
>   10.
> https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com%2F
>   11. https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html
>   12. https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/
>   13.
> https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html
>   14. https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac
>   15.
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html
>   16. https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/
>   17. https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/
>   18.
> https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10
>   19. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
>   20.
> https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/
>   21. https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation
>   22.
> https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc
>   23.
> https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/
>   24. https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial
>   25. https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/
>   26.
> https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tutorials/linux-tutorial/
>   27.
> https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-administration/
>   28.
> https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide/
>   29.
> https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview
>   30. https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html
>   31. https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/
>   32. https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/
>   33. https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux
>   34.
> https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-the-linux-terminal/
>   35. https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/
>   36.
> https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beginners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux
>   37. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8
>   38. https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/
>   39.
> https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778
>   40. https://hyperscope.link/index.html
>   41. https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/
>   42. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>   43. https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/
>   44. https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/
>   45. http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
>   46. http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/
>   47.
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linux/
>   48.
> https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best-for-schools/
>   49. https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/
>   50. http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html
>   51. https://linux-bildung.at/
>   52.
> https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-its-production-servers?share=1
>   53. https://www.scribus.net/downloads/
>   54. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>   55. https://stallmansupport.org/
>   56. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   57.
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   Hello!

   So I created these places:

   [1]https://mobilizon.fr/@digital_commons

   [2]https://github.com/yugawara/digitalcommons

   I hope like-minded people can start to add contents and we can make it
   better over a long time!

   I can make anyone intested an 'Administrator'.

   My hope is that we can put together our collective thoughts and analyze
   them.

   There are endless possibilities here - we can collect links, develop
   software, anything we want!

   Regarding 'marketing', that's definitely important - we can share
   information and develop strategies here!

   -Yasu

   On Mon, 2022-05-23 at 15:38 +0000, Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss
   wrote:





   I was reading yourlong email, and this has been on my mind for a long
   time, but inorder to get the freedom respecting software technology
   into thehands of everyone for everything instead of proprietary
   software,what you have to solve is not a technology problem, but a
   marketingproblem.

   If you think abouthow we got to the state we are in today, with
   proprietary softwaredominating in certain areas of computing, you have
   to remember thatthe reason for that is because of marketing, not
   because the productsare better, but because of how people know about
   it, and the socialrelationships between people. Just because software
   has always beenpromoted a certain way, or that even it is promoted in a
   differentway does not mean we have to keep doing it that way.

   I keep thinkingabout what you said, how asking questions is a skill
   that is honedwith practice, and not everyone has mastered it, and how
   it goes overdifferently with different audiences. Then you talk about
   all thosenewbie questions and how people just want their stuff to work.

   Why should peoplehave to answer endless newbie questions for free all
   the time, whycan’t that be a paid job? Why wouldn’t people pay someone
   tohold their hand and basically help them through everything?

   A lot of thethinking about this kind of thing comes from people in the
   technologyspace, people who like to fool around for hours on end to get
   thingsto work, rather than just ask someone and have it done in
   fiveseconds. We have this fascination with technology and are happy
   to,for hours on end, get the search engines to hopefully bring
   inrelevant results and then tweak them until it works.

   Yet, once you are inthe mindset of a tech person, how can you get into
   the mindset ofyour opposite, the marketing person selling memberships,
   themulti-level network marketer, a person whose focus is on
   people,marketing and selling, not technology?

   The thing withmarketing, is it is just as innovative as technology, and
   techniquesthat worked to get peoples attention and get them to buy are
   alwayschanging, and yet the principles are timeless. You have to get
   theproduct in front of an audience and convince people that it is
   theproduct for them, or that it is the service for them.

   So, with that I havesome questions. What if we improved tech support by
   bringing peoplein who speak the customers own language in terms they
   can understand? What if we brought people in whose strengths were not
   so focused onthe technology piece, but on the human piece, and focused
   on the waypeople use technology rather than trying to turn everyone
   into a techguru?

   I’ve oftenwondered if certain strategies used in marketing focused
   businessescould be used for tech support. What if the person selling
   thesupport could be responsible for the people they bring in,
   forgetting them the help that they want with freedom
   respectingsoftware? What if it was not about trying to save money, but
   peoplebuying a membership in a community where they feel welcome
   andunderstood?

   I’m only oneperson, and I certainly don’t have all the answers, and I
   don’texpect technology focused people to necessarily wrap their
   headsaround the idea that people are literally buying into this idea of
   acommunity and not a product or service. But, yet this is
   essentiallywhat the free software foundation is, and we need to take
   thisconcept and expand it. We need to reach new markets through
   peoplewhose primary interest is in marketing and relationships.

   I really think thisneeds to be discussed further. I do not think the
   issues areunsolvable, but that they will require always going outside
   of ourcommunities, but also going outside our own modes of thought
   andbecoming our opposites.

       On Sunday, May 22, 2022, 08:56:00 PM EDT, Yasuaki Kudo
   <[3]yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:



    With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons
   movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and
   rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the equals,
   and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero "come
   back later when you know know how to ask better questions", zero
   knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership - initially
   focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement.

    In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will
   be welcome!  They are not only welcome but will probably form the
   backbone of the society.

   Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as
   the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this.

   In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an important
   part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus.

   Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the software
   requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing as
   the bare minimum standard.

   But it won't be just married to Free Software, either.  The software
   licensing is just a part its concern and it will also have discussions
   of how to take advantage of proprietary systems.

   IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from
   accessing homepages built with Free Software.  Windows is proprietary
   but WSL2 makes available a Linux subsystem on top of it.

   Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly good
   strategy, in my opinion.  If I may add, what else is a proprietary
   system good for, other than to make the transition to the Free?

   If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me personally 😄
   - let's make it happen!

   -Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 yasu@yasuaki.com [4]http://yasuaki.com

   On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis <[5]bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

   * Erica Frank <[6]e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-19 22:30]:

   It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has
   little

   interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer public, and

   this reply just reinforces my belief.

   That is not true.

   That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively true.

   Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large

   companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo,

   including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is very

   out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little

   interest" in outreach to general public.

   We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel.

   GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman

   [7]https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html

   But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only, there

   are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux on

   their computers.

   How to Install Linux

   [8]https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/

   Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows

   [9]https://www.educba.com/install-linux/

   How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow

   [10]https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux

   How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop

   [11]https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/

   How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US

   [12]https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-
   linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F

   How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC

   [13]https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html

   How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks

   [14]https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/

   How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022]

   [15]https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-win
   dows-10.html

   How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How

   [16]https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac

   How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide

   [17]https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linu
   x-a-beginners-guide.html

   How to install Linux - CNET

   [18]https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/

   How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim

   [19]https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/

   How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How

   [20]https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows
   -10

   Install WSL | Microsoft Docs

   [21]https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install

   How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com

   [22]https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-inst
   alled/

   How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com

   [23]https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation

   How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US

   [24]https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-u
   buntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc

   The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com

   [25]https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-l
   inux/

   ▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022

   [26]https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial

   A Beginners’ Guide to Linux

   [27]https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/

   Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners

   [28]https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tu
   torials/linux-tutorial/

   Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks

   [29]https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-admin
   istration/

   Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide

   [30]https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide
   /

   The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu

   [31]https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview

   UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days

   [32]https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html

   Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command Line

   [33]https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/

   How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma

   [34]https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/

   Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet |
   Linuxlookup

   [35]https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux

   Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal

   [36]https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-t
   he-linux-terminal/

   A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog

   [37]https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/

   A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux

   [38]https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beg
   inners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux

   Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating System -
   YouTube

   [39]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8

   A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot

   [40]https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/

   Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar

   [41]https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-
   s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778

   The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find within

   10 seconds of work. It is my Dynamic Knowledge Repository that stores

   the information and that helps me to quickly reference it:

   Hyperscope - Dynamic Knowledge Repository

   [42]https://hyperscope.link/index.html

   About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR)

   [43]https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/

   Thus one can objectively conclude that large number of largest

   companies, users and developers are interested to help beginners to

   get along with GNU/Linux systems.

   Stating that support for free software " is done on numerous mailing
   lists,

   forums, IRC" - is not helpful.

   I understand that you could not get help, sorry, I cannot know why

   exactly, maybe is problem with searching on Internet, or maybe

   accessing different ways of getting help.

   There are also professionals who will come to your home and help you

   with whatever free software. You pay for service, and you get

   assistance. If you tell me where you are located, I can definitely

   find you people who can come and personally help you with

   installations or software. There are those teaching others

   computing.

   Yes, I can review the list of free software distros and install one

   and go looking for support if I need it. But why would I?

   Opps, I am reading your emails while answering. So you mean, that

   there is nothing for beginners, or you mean there is something for

   beginners, and you already found it, but it is not helpful because you

   would not install it. That is quite a different issue.

   Nobody forces you to install anything. Who said GNU/Linux is for

   everybody. You have plenty of choices for computing, it is all your

   choice.

   I don't see any value in switching from Windows to Linux, other than

   an abstract sense of "I would not be supporting Microsoft's

   attempted monopoly."

   While it is not important for you, many people do understand the

   importance of free software.

   What is Free Software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation

   [44]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

   And if you do not see the above free software freedoms as important,

   feel free to continue with proprietary software. It is your life, your

   information, your computer.

   There may be some other arguments for free software:

   What Is Linux and Why Is It Important?

   [45]https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/

   Why Use Linux? Here are the Reasons Why You Should

   [46]https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/

   (My adult daughters both use Linux because they were increasingly
   annoyed

   with Windows' invasive OS. However, I use Windows for work; I don't
   have

   the option to switch entirely. Several programs I use don't have Linux

   versions, and my daughters' experiences with WINE make me leery of
   trying.

   I can't afford to run into snags that take several hours to fix as I
   wade

   through various help forums trying to find the one that has an answer
   that

   actually works.)

   That is how it is, life is not a dream.

   Ah. It sounds like you have infinite time available to work on software

   projects, instead of using software to do things.

   But how do you know it?

   Did you ever come on idea that reason why developers develop software

   is because they are themselves using it to do things?

   For example, I am developing my database, but probably 99.9% of time I

   spend using the database. The things I do are such as recording

   geographic positions, images, field reports into the database, any

   kind of information, indexing, then relating it to people, assigning

   tasks, projects, sending SMS from computer, initiating phone calls

   straight, faster from computer with quick to edit notes. Some of

   things I do is about to help Italian investors purchase coffee from

   Uganda, Russian people to find their gold mining sites, some

   individial businessmen to start their businesses. So I gave you on my

   personal example, how the time is available to do things.

   "Just search for a list of options, pick one of the three dozen

   results, install that one, search for its help forums, figure out

   how to join the relevant email lists, and ask for help; make sure to

   provide the technical details they require and search for

   definitions of the vocabulary used in the responses."

   That's fine for a personal project; it utterly fails as a premise for a

   school or business switching to a less-popular OS. Again: Why would
   they

   bother? They have an OS that works.

   That such informational resources utterly fail like you say is unknown

   to me. But how do you know it?

   Free software is not there for reason to be popular, more or less

   popular, the reasons I gave you are four freedoms. I do understand

   that people are drawn by what is popular, and that there are many

   other reasons for choices.

   The role of Linux and computers in schools

   [47]http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html

   Linux in Indiana Schools

   [48]http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/

   Indiana schools enroll Linux - CNET

   [49]https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll-linu
   x/

   Which Linux distributions are best for schools? | Open School Solutions

   [50]https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-best-
   for-schools/

   Best Educational Linux Distros for Children & Schools [2022]

   [51]https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/

   The role of Linux and computers in schools

   [52]http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html

   That it utterly fails in schools can't objectively be said.

   Then if you are only in the US and speak only English, you may not

   have access to information in French, Italian, German and other

   foreign language speaking resource to understand how much GNU/Linux is

   used in schools.

   Example:

   Linux in der Schule – Freie Open Source Software in der Schule

   [53]https://linux-bildung.at/

   For business I should not tell anything, we know that 56% developers

   are using GNU/Linux, those developers work for businesses.

   In fact, you are using Gmail service that runs on GNU/Linux. That is

   far from Linux-based systems and "utterly" failing in businesses.

   (13) Which Linux distribution does Google run on its production
   servers? - Quora

   [54]https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run-on-i
   ts-production-servers?share=1

   I do book publishing. I use InDesign for layout. I use Word to set up

   documents with styles that import to InDesign. InDesign doesn't import

   LaTeX docs, and a quick check says LaTeX won't save out as .doc.

   I did some research into using LaTeX for layout, but could not confirm
   that

   it had the necessary layout features. Most crucial was having standard
   text

   lines match position across columns and pages, regardless of any
   irregular

   formatting included. I remember also hearing about issues with

   headers/footers, but the leading match was the key issue that convinced
   me

   to stop looking at it.

   Those are probably funamentally different tools, one is proprietary,

   other one LaTeX is free software running on any operating system, one

   is visual, other one is text setting software. They are hardly to be

   compared. But OK.

   What you mention as most crucial reminds me of LaTeX features.

   I do not think that for quick visual placement of pictures and text,

   one shall use LaTeX. but it is possible, more visual tool is:

   Get Scribus – Scribus

   [55]https://www.scribus.net/downloads/

   in connection with Gimp and Inkscape.

   We are in different mind sets, as if you do not find a feature you

   need, you grab and stay with proprietary software.

   And me, if I do not have a feature that I need, I find it and find

   solution and make it happen.

   Because there is GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, TeX and LaTeX, there is

   LibreOffice, then me personally really satisfy all my graphics and

   desktop publishing related needs.

   But my mind set is different, as if I cannot get things done on

   GNU/Linux, I get things done on GNU/Linux.

   For me, proprietary software is not an option.

   Though on mobile phones is almost impossible to avoid it. And we use

   such phones in business. But then all proprietary software and Google

   applications get blocked, and researchers are sent to field, working

   with free software.

   Maybe it could work. But I'm not putting dozens of hours into

   researching and learning the program to find out it can't. I need

   complex and specific layout options, and searching the web has not

   turned up info on whether LaTeX or other programs has those

   features.

   Learning is required.

   I can tell you one thing -- back in 1999 I have been accomplishing any

   graphics needs with GNU/Linux like I am doing it today 2022. I was

   using back in time if I remember well, just XFig software, and I did

   make money with it, I have beend disseminating posters and flyers all

   over Stuttgart, Germany.

   I am not saying "everyone needs Word & similar programs." (Certainly
   not

   saying "everyone needs InDesign or similar.") I'm saying that I haven't

   found open-source software, much less free software, that covers my

   professional document needs. That problem carries over for most
   businesses

   and most schools.

   You have not made specific request, maybe you should.

   "People should be using markup instead of WYSIWYG" is a fine
   philosophical

   statement but does absolutely nothing to convince people to use the

   software. (Especially when support for markup languages varies greatly
   by

   device and software.)

   I don't think markup and visual tools do the same purpose. Anyway,

   make your specific request, there must be way to solve that issue of

   margins you said.

   --

   Jean

   Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:

   [56]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

   In support of Richard M. Stallman

   [57]https://stallmansupport.org/

   _______________________________________________

   libreplanet-discuss mailing list

   [58]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

   [59]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

   _______________________________________________

   libreplanet-discuss mailing list

   [60]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

   [61]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss



      I was reading your long email, and this has been on my mind for a
   long

      time, but in order to get the freedom respecting software technology

      into the hands of everyone for everything instead of proprietary

      software, what you have to solve is not a technology problem, but a

      marketing problem.

      If you think about how we got to the state we are in today, with

      proprietary software dominating in certain areas of computing, you
   have

      to remember that the reason for that is because of marketing, not

      because the products are better, but because of how people know
   about

      it, and the social relationships between people. Just because
   software

      has always been promoted a certain way, or that even it is promoted
   in

      a different way does not mean we have to keep doing it that way.

      I keep thinking about what you said, how asking questions is a skill

      that is honed with practice, and not everyone has mastered it, and
   how

      it goes over differently with different audiences. Then you talk
   about

      all those newbie questions and how people just want their stuff to

      work.

      Why should people have to answer endless newbie questions for free
   all

      the time, why can’t that be a paid job? Why wouldn’t people pay
   someone

      to hold their hand and basically help them through everything?

      A lot of the thinking about this kind of thing comes from people in
   the

      technology space, people who like to fool around for hours on end to

      get things to work, rather than just ask someone and have it done in

      five seconds. We have this fascination with technology and are happy

      to, for hours on end, get the search engines to hopefully bring in

      relevant results and then tweak them until it works.

      Yet, once you are in the mindset of a tech person, how can you get
   into

      the mindset of your opposite, the marketing person selling
   memberships,

      the multi-level network marketer, a person whose focus is on people,

      marketing and selling, not technology?

      The thing with marketing, is it is just as innovative as technology,

      and techniques that worked to get peoples attention and get them to
   buy

      are always changing, and yet the principles are timeless. You have
   to

      get the product in front of an audience and convince people that it
   is

      the product for them, or that it is the service for them.

      So, with that I have some questions. What if we improved tech
   support

      by bringing people in who speak the customers own language in terms

      they can understand? What if we brought people in whose strengths
   were

      not so focused on the technology piece, but on the human piece, and

      focused on the way people use technology rather than trying to turn

      everyone into a tech guru?

      I’ve often wondered if certain strategies used in marketing focused

      businesses could be used for tech support. What if the person
   selling

      the support could be responsible for the people they bring in, for

      getting them the help that they want with freedom respecting
   software?

      What if it was not about trying to save money, but people buying a

      membership in a community where they feel welcome and understood?

      I’m only one person, and I certainly don’t have all the answers, and
   I

      don’t expect technology focused people to necessarily wrap their
   heads

      around the idea that people are literally buying into this idea of a

      community and not a product or service. But, yet this is essentially

      what the free software foundation is, and we need to take this
   concept

      and expand it. We need to reach new markets through people whose

      primary interest is in marketing and relationships.

      I really think this needs to be discussed further. I do not think
   the

      issues are unsolvable, but that they will require always going
   outside

      of our communities, but also going outside our own modes of thought
   and

      becoming our opposites.

      On Sunday, May 22, 2022, 08:56:00 PM EDT, Yasuaki Kudo

      <[62]yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:

      With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons

      movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and

      rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the
   equals,

      and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero
   "come

      back later when you know know how to ask better questions", zero

      knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership - initially

      focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement.

      In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will
   be

      welcome!  They are not only welcome but will probably form the
   backbone

      of the society.

      Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as

      the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this.

      In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an
   important

      part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus.

      Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the software

      requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing as

      the bare minimum standard.

      But it won't be just married to Free Software, either.  The software

      licensing is just a part its concern and it will also have
   discussions

      of how to take advantage of proprietary systems.

      IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from

      accessing homepages built with Free Software.  Windows is
   proprietary

      but WSL2 makes available a Linux subsystem on top of it.

      Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly good

      strategy, in my opinion.  If I may add, what else is a proprietary

      system good for, other than to make the transition to the Free?

      If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me personally
   😄

      - let's make it happen!

      -Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 [1]yasu@yasuaki.com [2][63]http://yasuaki.com

      On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis <[3][64]bugs@gnu.support>
   wrote:

      >

      > * Erica Frank <[4][65]e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-19 22:30]:

      >> It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has

      little

      >> interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer
   public,

      and

      >> this reply just reinforces my belief.

      >

      > That is not true.

      >

      > That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively
   true.

      >

      > Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large

      > companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo,

      > including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is
   very

      > out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little

      > interest" in outreach to general public.

      >

      > We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel.

      >

      > GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman

      > [5][66]https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html

      >

      > But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only,

      there

      > are many many online references guiding people to install
   GNU/Linux

      on

      > their computers.

      >

      > How to Install Linux

      > [6][67]https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/

      >

      > Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows

      > [7][68]https://www.educba.com/install-linux/

      >

      > How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow

      > [8][69]https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux

      >

      > How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop

      > [9][70]https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/

      >

      > How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US

      >


   [10][71]https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-inst
   all-

      linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F

      >

      > How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC

      > [11][72]https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html

      >

      > How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks

      > [12][73]https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/

      >

      > How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022]

      >


   [13][74]https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on
   -win

      dows-10.html

      >

      > How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How

      >
   [14][75]https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac

      >

      > How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide

      >


   [15][76]https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-
   linu

      x-a-beginners-guide.html

      >

      > How to install Linux - CNET

      > [16][77]https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/

      >

      > How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim

      > [17][78]https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/

      >

      > How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How

      >


   [18][79]https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-win
   dows

      -10

      >

      > Install WSL | Microsoft Docs

      > [19][80]https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install

      >

      > How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com

      >


   [20][81]https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-
   inst

      alled/

      >

      > How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com

      > [21][82]https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation

      >

      > How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US

      >


   [22][83]https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-insta
   ll-u

      buntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc

      >

      > The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com

      >


   [23][84]https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-gui
   de-l

      inux/

      >

      > ▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022

      > [24][85]https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial

      >

      > A Beginners’ Guide to Linux

      > [25][86]https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/

      >

      > Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners

      >


   [26][87]https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-developmen
   t-tu

      torials/linux-tutorial/

      >

      > Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks

      >


   [27][88]https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-a
   dmin

      istration/

      >

      > Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide

      >


   [28][89]https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-g
   uide

      /

      >

      > The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu

      >


   [29][90]https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overv
   iew

      >

      > UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days

      > [30][91]https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html

      >

      > Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command
   Line

      > [31][92]https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/

      >

      > How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma

      > [32][93]https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/

      >

      > Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet |

      Linuxlookup

      > [33][94]https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux

      >

      > Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal

      >


   [34][95]https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-usi
   ng-t

      he-linux-terminal/

      >

      > A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog

      > [35][96]https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/

      >

      > A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux

      >


   [36][97]https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a
   -beg

      inners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux

      >

      > Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating
   System

      - YouTube

      > [37][98]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8

      >

      > A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot

      >
   [38][99]https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/

      >

      > Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar

      >


   [39][100]https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/begi
   nner-

      s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778

      >

      > The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find

      within

      > 10 seconds of work. It is my Dynamic Knowledge Repository that
   stores

      > the information and that helps me to quickly reference it:

      >

      > Hyperscope - Dynamic Knowledge Repository

      > [40][101]https://hyperscope.link/index.html

      >

      > About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR)

      > [41][102]https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/

      >

      > Thus one can objectively conclude that large number of largest

      > companies, users and developers are interested to help beginners
   to

      > get along with GNU/Linux systems.

      >

      >> Stating that support for free software " is done on numerous
   mailing

      lists,

      >> forums, IRC" - is not helpful.

      >

      > I understand that you could not get help, sorry, I cannot know why

      > exactly, maybe is problem with searching on Internet, or maybe

      > accessing different ways of getting help.

      >

      > There are also professionals who will come to your home and help
   you

      > with whatever free software. You pay for service, and you get

      > assistance. If you tell me where you are located, I can definitely

      > find you people who can come and personally help you with

      > installations or software. There are those teaching others

      > computing.

      >

      >> Yes, I can review the list of free software distros and install
   one

      >> and go looking for support if I need it. But why would I?

      >

      > Opps, I am reading your emails while answering. So you mean, that

      > there is nothing for beginners, or you mean there is something for

      > beginners, and you already found it, but it is not helpful because

      you

      > would not install it. That is quite a different issue.

      >

      > Nobody forces you to install anything. Who said GNU/Linux is for

      > everybody. You have plenty of choices for computing, it is all
   your

      > choice.

      >

      >> I don't see any value in switching from Windows to Linux, other
   than

      >> an abstract sense of "I would not be supporting Microsoft's

      >> attempted monopoly."

      >

      > While it is not important for you, many people do understand the

      > importance of free software.

      >

      > What is Free Software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation

      > [42][103]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

      >

      > And if you do not see the above free software freedoms as
   important,

      > feel free to continue with proprietary software. It is your life,

      your

      > information, your computer.

      >

      > There may be some other arguments for free software:

      >

      > What Is Linux and Why Is It Important?

      >
   [43][104]https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-linux-why-is-it-important/

      >

      > Why Use Linux? Here are the Reasons Why You Should

      > [44][105]https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/

      >

      >> (My adult daughters both use Linux because they were increasingly

      annoyed

      >> with Windows' invasive OS. However, I use Windows for work; I
   don't

      have

      >> the option to switch entirely. Several programs I use don't have

      Linux

      >> versions, and my daughters' experiences with WINE make me leery
   of

      trying.

      >> I can't afford to run into snags that take several hours to fix
   as I

      wade

      >> through various help forums trying to find the one that has an

      answer that

      >> actually works.)

      >

      > That is how it is, life is not a dream.

      >

      >> Ah. It sounds like you have infinite time available to work on

      software

      >> projects, instead of using software to do things.

      >

      > But how do you know it?

      >

      > Did you ever come on idea that reason why developers develop
   software

      > is because they are themselves using it to do things?

      >

      > For example, I am developing my database, but probably 99.9% of
   time

      I

      > spend using the database. The things I do are such as recording

      > geographic positions, images, field reports into the database, any

      > kind of information, indexing, then relating it to people,
   assigning

      > tasks, projects, sending SMS from computer, initiating phone calls

      > straight, faster from computer with quick to edit notes. Some of

      > things I do is about to help Italian investors purchase coffee
   from

      > Uganda, Russian people to find their gold mining sites, some

      > individial businessmen to start their businesses. So I gave you on
   my

      > personal example, how the time is available to do things.

      >

      >> "Just search for a list of options, pick one of the three dozen

      >> results, install that one, search for its help forums, figure out

      >> how to join the relevant email lists, and ask for help; make sure
   to

      >> provide the technical details they require and search for

      >> definitions of the vocabulary used in the responses."

      >>>

      >> That's fine for a personal project; it utterly fails as a premise

      for a

      >> school or business switching to a less-popular OS. Again: Why
   would

      they

      >> bother? They have an OS that works.

      >

      > That such informational resources utterly fail like you say is

      unknown

      > to me. But how do you know it?

      >

      > Free software is not there for reason to be popular, more or less

      > popular, the reasons I gave you are four freedoms. I do understand

      > that people are drawn by what is popular, and that there are many

      > other reasons for choices.

      >

      > The role of Linux and computers in schools

      > [45][106]http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html

      >

      > Linux in Indiana Schools

      > [46][107]http://indianalinux.blogspot.com/

      >

      > Indiana schools enroll Linux - CNET

      >


   [47][108]https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/indiana-schools-enroll
   -linu

      x/

      >

      > Which Linux distributions are best for schools? | Open School

      Solutions

      >


   [48][109]https://openschoolsolutions.org/which-linux-distributions-are-
   best-

      for-schools/

      >

      > Best Educational Linux Distros for Children & Schools [2022]

      > [49][110]https://itsfoss.com/educational-linux-distros/

      >

      > The role of Linux and computers in schools

      > [50][111]http://www.linfo.org/linux_educ.html

      >

      > That it utterly fails in schools can't objectively be said.

      >

      > Then if you are only in the US and speak only English, you may not

      > have access to information in French, Italian, German and other

      > foreign language speaking resource to understand how much
   GNU/Linux

      is

      > used in schools.

      >

      > Example:

      > Linux in der Schule – Freie Open Source Software in der Schule

      > [51][112]https://linux-bildung.at/

      >

      > For business I should not tell anything, we know that 56%
   developers

      > are using GNU/Linux, those developers work for businesses.

      >

      > In fact, you are using Gmail service that runs on GNU/Linux. That
   is

      > far from Linux-based systems and "utterly" failing in businesses.

      >

      > (13) Which Linux distribution does Google run on its production

      servers? - Quora

      >


   [52][113]https://www.quora.com/Which-Linux-distribution-does-Google-run
   -on-i

      ts-production-servers?share=1

      >

      >> I do book publishing. I use InDesign for layout. I use Word to
   set

      up

      >> documents with styles that import to InDesign. InDesign doesn't

      import

      >> LaTeX docs, and a quick check says LaTeX won't save out as .doc.

      >> I did some research into using LaTeX for layout, but could not

      confirm that

      >> it had the necessary layout features. Most crucial was having

      standard text

      >> lines match position across columns and pages, regardless of any

      irregular

      >> formatting included. I remember also hearing about issues with

      >> headers/footers, but the leading match was the key issue that

      convinced me

      >> to stop looking at it.

      >

      > Those are probably funamentally different tools, one is
   proprietary,

      > other one LaTeX is free software running on any operating system,
   one

      > is visual, other one is text setting software. They are hardly to
   be

      > compared. But OK.

      >

      > What you mention as most crucial reminds me of LaTeX features.

      >

      > I do not think that for quick visual placement of pictures and
   text,

      > one shall use LaTeX. but it is possible, more visual tool is:

      >

      > Get Scribus – Scribus

      > [53][114]https://www.scribus.net/downloads/

      >

      > in connection with Gimp and Inkscape.

      >

      > We are in different mind sets, as if you do not find a feature you

      > need, you grab and stay with proprietary software.

      >

      > And me, if I do not have a feature that I need, I find it and find

      > solution and make it happen.

      >

      > Because there is GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, TeX and LaTeX, there is

      > LibreOffice, then me personally really satisfy all my graphics and

      > desktop publishing related needs.

      >

      > But my mind set is different, as if I cannot get things done on

      > GNU/Linux, I get things done on GNU/Linux.

      >

      > For me, proprietary software is not an option.

      >

      > Though on mobile phones is almost impossible to avoid it. And we
   use

      > such phones in business. But then all proprietary software and
   Google

      > applications get blocked, and researchers are sent to field,
   working

      > with free software.

      >

      >> Maybe it could work. But I'm not putting dozens of hours into

      >> researching and learning the program to find out it can't. I need

      >> complex and specific layout options, and searching the web has
   not

      >> turned up info on whether LaTeX or other programs has those

      >> features.

      >

      > Learning is required.

      >

      > I can tell you one thing -- back in 1999 I have been accomplishing

      any

      > graphics needs with GNU/Linux like I am doing it today 2022. I was

      > using back in time if I remember well, just XFig software, and I
   did

      > make money with it, I have beend disseminating posters and flyers
   all

      > over Stuttgart, Germany.

      >

      >> I am not saying "everyone needs Word & similar programs."
   (Certainly

      not

      >> saying "everyone needs InDesign or similar.") I'm saying that I

      haven't

      >> found open-source software, much less free software, that covers
   my

      >> professional document needs. That problem carries over for most

      businesses

      >> and most schools.

      >

      > You have not made specific request, maybe you should.

      >

      >> "People should be using markup instead of WYSIWYG" is a fine

      philosophical

      >> statement but does absolutely nothing to convince people to use
   the

      >> software. (Especially when support for markup languages varies

      greatly by

      >> device and software.)

      >

      > I don't think markup and visual tools do the same purpose. Anyway,

      > make your specific request, there must be way to solve that issue
   of

      > margins you said.

      >

      >

      > --

      > Jean

      >

      > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:

      > [54][115]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

      >

      > In support of Richard M. Stallman

      > [55][116]https://stallmansupport.org/

      >

      > _______________________________________________

      > libreplanet-discuss mailing list

      > [56][117]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

      >


   [57][118]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-dis
   cuss

      _______________________________________________

      libreplanet-discuss mailing list

      [58][119]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org


   [59][120]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-dis
   cuss

   References

      1. mailto:[121]yasu@yasuaki.com

      2. [122]http://yasuaki.com/

      3. mailto:[123]bugs@gnu.support

      4. mailto:[124]e.lynn.frank@gmail.com

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     10.
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     36.
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     38.
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     39.
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     47.
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     52.
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   its-production-servers?share=1

     53. [173]https://www.scribus.net/downloads/

     54. [174]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

     55. [175]https://stallmansupport.org/

     56. mailto:[176]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

     57.
   [177]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

     58. mailto:[178]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

     59.
   [179]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

   _______________________________________________

   libreplanet-discuss mailing list

   [180]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

   [181]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. https://mobilizon.fr/@digital_commons
   2. https://github.com/yugawara/digitalcommons
   3. mailto:yasu@yasuaki.com
   4. http://yasuaki.com/
   5. mailto:bugs@gnu.support
   6. mailto:e.lynn.frank@gmail.com
   7. https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
   8. https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/
   9. https://www.educba.com/install-linux/
  10. https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux
  11. https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/
  12. https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com%2F
  13. https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html
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  16. https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac
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Re: Software Freedom in education ...

[Akira Urushibata]

Lori Nagel wrote:

  I was reading your long email, and this has been on my mind for a long
  time, but in order to get the freedom respecting software technology
  into the hands of everyone for everything instead of proprietary
  software, what you have to solve is not a technology problem, but a
  marketing problem.

  If you think about how we got to the state we are in today, with
  proprietary software dominating in certain areas of computing, you
  have to remember that the reason for that is because of marketing, not
  because the products are better, but because of how people know about
  it, and the social relationships between people. Just because software
  has always been promoted a certain way, or that even it is promoted in
  a differentway does not mean we have to keep doing it that way.


Thank you very much for providing your insight on this issue.

Is there a good book on marketing that you can recommend?  For that
matter, suggestions from anyone here is welcome.

On marketing in the personal computer industry "Accidental Empires"
provides some historical information.  In particular the tale of Lotus
1-2-3, the world's first "compelling application," is interesting.
Lotus 1-2-3, was blessed with both clear advantages over rival and
innovative marketing.

---

I think there is much marketing going on in "open source" events and
in various internet forums.  I fear that much of the effort is in
the wrong direction.

Is there some wisdom from marketing to get the orientation corrected?

---

In 2008 at a small school in Xi'an, China, after Richard Stallman's
usual speech on free software, one person asked this question:

  What was the most difficult task in your project?

To this RMS replied:

  Schools say they teach students how to use Microsoft products,
  because that is what companies use.  Companies say they use
  Microsoft because students learn their usage in school.  Both
  parties blame the other and get locked together.  We may call
  this state "social inertia."  This condition was hard to break.

How do you apply marketing skills to overcome social inertia?

Some languages may have a better expression for "social inertia."
One of the most famous stories from the Chinese classics discusses
this phenomenon.  Can native Chinese speakers subscribed to this
mailing list explain?  I will give you a few days.



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