* Apologies @ 2019-09-24 17:42 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-24 17:56 ` Apologies Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-25 13:25 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: 'smee via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-24 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to apologize and say I'll do better in the future. I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better in the future to consider that there are real people with real concerns and try not to be combative. _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-24 17:42 Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-24 17:56 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-24 18:08 ` Apologies Aaron Wolf 2019-09-25 13:25 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-24 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'smee; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1103 bytes --] Gee 'Smee: Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're being "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"? I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or "combative". Adrienne On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss < libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better in > the future to consider that there are real people with real concerns > and try not to be combative. > > > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 1472 bytes --] Gee 'Smee: Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're being "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"? I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or "combative". Adrienne On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to apologize and say I'll do better in the future. I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better in the future to consider that there are real people with real concerns and try not to be combative. _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus s -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 5. http://codeartnow.com/ 6. http://www.abertheid.info/ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-24 17:56 ` Apologies Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-24 18:08 ` Aaron Wolf 2019-09-24 18:26 ` Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Aaron Wolf @ 2019-09-24 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Adrienne G. Thompson, 'smee; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss Adrienne, that's a valid concern. People shouldn't be walking on eggshells. However, that's a misreading of the case here. This is more like 'Smee realizing on self-reflection that they actually *were* making assumptions and not being as considerate as they wish to be. I don't think this apology was an insincere fear-based one but one in which it's a modeling of holding oneself to a high standard. Again, you're right in that we live in a context where *reasonable* discourse gets grotesquely misrepresented and then people self-censor out of fear. That is a totally valid problem, and we should not accept it as okay. At the same time, we should work to treat everyone with some benefit-of-the-doubt and compassion. And there's nothing wrong with apologizing for not living up to that standard, even if someone's worst was *still* better than many people's normal. If I write something from a defensive, reactionary mindset, I would hope to recognize it and apologize if I failed to check myself before sending it. That's independent from the fact that my emotional reactionary writing might still be more respectful than most people's non-emotional postings. On 2019-09-24 10:56 a.m., Adrienne G. Thompson wrote: > Gee 'Smee: > Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have > reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're being > "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"? > I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or "combative". > Adrienne > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss > <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better > in > the future to consider that there are real people with real concerns > and try not to be combative. > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus > s > > -- > Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! > GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph > Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com > Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info > Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph > > References > > 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > 2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > 3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > 4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph > 5. http://codeartnow.com/ > 6. http://www.abertheid.info/ > > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-24 18:08 ` Apologies Aaron Wolf @ 2019-09-24 18:26 ` 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-24 19:03 ` Apologies Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-25 14:29 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: 'smee via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-24 18:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Aaron Wolf, Adrienne G. Thompson; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss Adrienne, I feel it's a fine line here as you make good points that i try to keep in mind as well. In this case, the catalyst for my apology was that Aaron emailed me off list and made accurate insights into my replies (that Deb was acting in bad faith, as I did assume that). Aaron only shared his experiences with Deb and encouraged me to, basically be more diplomatic, which is an area that I actually am working on. I still think this campaign against RMS was coordinated (call me a conspiracy nut) and that they are accomplishing some of their goals right now. I won't likely censor myself too much but I will listen when someone brings up a mistake I've possibly made, and I'll self reflect, and I'll continue learning from people who are able to do things better than I feel I can do them. Thanks Adrienne for sticking up for free speech. On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:08 -0700, Aaron Wolf wrote: > Adrienne, that's a valid concern. People shouldn't be walking on > eggshells. However, that's a misreading of the case here. This is > more > like 'Smee realizing on self-reflection that they actually *were* > making > assumptions and not being as considerate as they wish to be. I don't > think this apology was an insincere fear-based one but one in which > it's > a modeling of holding oneself to a high standard. > > Again, you're right in that we live in a context where *reasonable* > discourse gets grotesquely misrepresented and then people self-censor > out of fear. That is a totally valid problem, and we should not > accept > it as okay. > > At the same time, we should work to treat everyone with some > benefit-of-the-doubt and compassion. And there's nothing wrong with > apologizing for not living up to that standard, even if someone's > worst > was *still* better than many people's normal. > > If I write something from a defensive, reactionary mindset, I would > hope > to recognize it and apologize if I failed to check myself before > sending > it. That's independent from the fact that my emotional reactionary > writing might still be more respectful than most people's non- > emotional > postings. > > > On 2019-09-24 10:56 a.m., Adrienne G. Thompson wrote: > > Gee 'Smee: > > Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have > > reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're > > being > > "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"? > > I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or > > "combative". > > Adrienne > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss > > <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > > > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like > > to > > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do > > better > > in > > the future to consider that there are real people with real > > concerns > > and try not to be combative. > > _______________________________________________ > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet- > > discus > > s > > > > -- > > Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! > > GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph > > Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com > > Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info > > Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph > > > > References > > > > 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > 2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > 3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di > > scuss > > 4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph > > 5. http://codeartnow.com/ > > 6. http://www.abertheid.info/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-24 18:26 ` Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-24 19:03 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-25 14:29 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-24 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'smee; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss, Aaron Wolf [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3916 bytes --] 'Smee: I still think this campaign against RMS was coordinated (call me a > conspiracy nut) and that they are accomplishing some of their goals > right now. > It was very well coordinated with the help of big money! > Thanks Adrienne for sticking up for free speech. > You're welcome 'Smee. Have a nice day!! Adrienne > > > On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:08 -0700, Aaron Wolf wrote: > > Adrienne, that's a valid concern. People shouldn't be walking on > > eggshells. However, that's a misreading of the case here. This is > > more > > like 'Smee realizing on self-reflection that they actually *were* > > making > > assumptions and not being as considerate as they wish to be. I don't > > think this apology was an insincere fear-based one but one in which > > it's > > a modeling of holding oneself to a high standard. > > > > Again, you're right in that we live in a context where *reasonable* > > discourse gets grotesquely misrepresented and then people self-censor > > out of fear. That is a totally valid problem, and we should not > > accept > > it as okay. > > > > At the same time, we should work to treat everyone with some > > benefit-of-the-doubt and compassion. And there's nothing wrong with > > apologizing for not living up to that standard, even if someone's > > worst > > was *still* better than many people's normal. > > > > If I write something from a defensive, reactionary mindset, I would > > hope > > to recognize it and apologize if I failed to check myself before > > sending > > it. That's independent from the fact that my emotional reactionary > > writing might still be more respectful than most people's non- > > emotional > > postings. > > > > > > On 2019-09-24 10:56 a.m., Adrienne G. Thompson wrote: > > > Gee 'Smee: > > > Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have > > > reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're > > > being > > > "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"? > > > I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or > > > "combative". > > > Adrienne > > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss > > > <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > > > > > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like > > > to > > > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. > > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do > > > better > > > in > > > the future to consider that there are real people with real > > > concerns > > > and try not to be combative. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > > [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > > [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet- > > > discus > > > s > > > > > > -- > > > Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! > > > GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph > > > Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com > > > Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info > > > Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph > > > > > > References > > > > > > 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > > 2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > > 3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di > > > scuss > > > 4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph > > > 5. http://codeartnow.com/ > > > 6. http://www.abertheid.info/ > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > > > > > > > -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 5103 bytes --] 'Smee: I still think this campaign against RMS was coordinated (call me a conspiracy nut) and that they are accomplishing some of their goals right now. It was very well coordinated with the help of big money! Thanks Adrienne for sticking up for free speech. You're welcome 'Smee. Have a nice day!! Adrienne On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:08 -0700, Aaron Wolf wrote: > Adrienne, that's a valid concern. People shouldn't be walking on > eggshells. However, that's a misreading of the case here. This is > more > like 'Smee realizing on self-reflection that they actually *were* > making > assumptions and not being as considerate as they wish to be. I don't > think this apology was an insincere fear-based one but one in which > it's > a modeling of holding oneself to a high standard. > > Again, you're right in that we live in a context where *reasonable* > discourse gets grotesquely misrepresented and then people self-censor > out of fear. That is a totally valid problem, and we should not > accept > it as okay. > > At the same time, we should work to treat everyone with some > benefit-of-the-doubt and compassion. And there's nothing wrong with > apologizing for not living up to that standard, even if someone's > worst > was *still* better than many people's normal. > > If I write something from a defensive, reactionary mindset, I would > hope > to recognize it and apologize if I failed to check myself before > sending > it. That's independent from the fact that my emotional reactionary > writing might still be more respectful than most people's non- > emotional > postings. > > > On 2019-09-24 10:56 a.m., Adrienne G. Thompson wrote: > > Gee 'Smee: > > Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have > > reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're > > being > > "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"? > > I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or > > "combative". > > Adrienne > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss > > <[1][1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > > > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like > > to > > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do > > better > > in > > the future to consider that there are real people with real > > concerns > > and try not to be combative. > > _______________________________________________ > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > [2][2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > [3][3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet- > > discus > > s > > > > -- > > Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! > > GNU C-Graph - [4][4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph > > Code Art Now - [5][5]http://codeartnow.com > > Abertheid Campaign - [6][6]http://www.abertheid.info > > Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph > > > > References > > > > 1. mailto:[7]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > 2. mailto:[8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > 3. [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di > > scuss > > 4. [10]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph > > 5. [11]http://codeartnow.com/ > > 6. [12]http://www.abertheid.info/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > [13]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > [14]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu ss > > > > -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - [15]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - [16]http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - [17]http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet- 4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 5. http://codeartnow.com/ 6. http://www.abertheid.info/ 7. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di 10. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 11. http://codeartnow.com/ 12. http://www.abertheid.info/ 13. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 14. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 15. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 16. http://codeartnow.com/ 17. http://www.abertheid.info/ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-24 18:26 ` Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-24 19:03 ` Apologies Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-25 14:29 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 14:36 ` Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'smee Cc: Aaron Wolf, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss, Adrienne G. Thompson [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1045 bytes --] On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:26:37 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > I still think this campaign against RMS was coordinated (call me a > conspiracy nut) and that they are accomplishing some of their goals > right now. Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to notice the blatant astroturfing -- Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-25 14:29 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 14:36 ` 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 16:46 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: 'smee via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Rowe Cc: Aaron Wolf, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss, Adrienne G. Thompson That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though that there may be real people who see the coordinated attack (maybe not seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity to air their grievances or share their experiences. They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do better to consider that they're real people. I care about real people and real grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks, and how they play on real people's emotions, are despicable. Thanks for your input. > Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to notice > the blatant astroturfing > _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-25 14:36 ` Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 16:46 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 16:51 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'smee Cc: Aaron Wolf, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss, Adrienne G. Thompson [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2946 bytes --] The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in the free software world. He has said some stupid things in the past, but he's a really nice guy and really supportive. He's always there to answer emails and offer guidance on things. He is one of my role models. He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I came out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all. Later on I accused him and others of stuff and the project was ejected from GNU; but he's a really nice guy. I later regretted the stuff I said about him (back then I was ignorant and really fucked up as a person). He came to me *personally* (via email) a few months ago when he was working on a new article on his blog about using gender neutral pronouns in his talks/articles, and asked me to proofread it and offer constructive criticism (he emailed the draft to others too). The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic... like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't understand other peoples emotions either). It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much. He didn't deserve any of the abuse he got. On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:36:56 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though that > there may be real people who see the coordinated attack (maybe not > seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity to air their > grievances or share their experiences. > > They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do better > to consider that they're real people. I care about real people and > real grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks, and how they > play on real people's emotions, are despicable. > > Thanks for your input. > > > > Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to > > notice the blatant astroturfing > > > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss -- Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-25 16:46 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 16:51 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 16:53 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 20:21 ` Apologies Matt Ivie 2019-09-26 0:43 ` Apologies A. Mani 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 16:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Rowe Cc: Aaron Wolf, 'smee, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss, Adrienne G. Thompson [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4522 bytes --] The saddest part is that the rightwing media slamming him for his misspoken words about Epstein do not care about womens rights... while slandering him and quoting him out of context to make it look like he supports a serial rapist (which he absolutely *does not*). They are mostly authored and run by men, who grew up in a male dominated culture, who don't give a second thought to women. They were jumping on a bandwagon of RMS-bashing because it gives them more readers... and it advances their agenda. RMS has said (in this very email list) that while he has stepped down from the FSF, he will remain as leader of the GNU project. This makes me happy at least. On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:46:27 +0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote: > > The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in > the free software world. He has said some stupid things in the past, > but he's a really nice guy and really supportive. He's always there to > answer emails and offer guidance on things. He is one of my role > models. > > He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I came > out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all. Later on > I accused him and others of stuff and the project was ejected from > GNU; but he's a really nice guy. I later regretted the stuff I said > about him (back then I was ignorant and really fucked up as a > person). He came to me *personally* (via email) a few months ago when > he was working on a new article on his blog about using gender > neutral pronouns in his talks/articles, and asked me to proofread it > and offer constructive criticism (he emailed the draft to others too). > > The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic... > like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account > how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't > understand other peoples emotions either). > > It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much. He > didn't deserve any of the abuse he got. > > On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:36:56 +0000 'smee via > libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > > That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though that > > there may be real people who see the coordinated attack (maybe not > > seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity to air their > > grievances or share their experiences. > > > > They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do > > better to consider that they're real people. I care about real > > people and real grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks, and > > how they play on real people's emotions, are despicable. > > > > Thanks for your input. > > > > > > > Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to > > > notice the blatant astroturfing > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > -- > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> > Company Director & Libreboot developer > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ > > Do you know you have rights? > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on > and censored by the government. > > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 > VAT Registration No. GB202190462 > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom > United Kingdom -- Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-25 16:51 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 16:53 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Rowe Cc: Aaron Wolf, 'smee, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss, Adrienne G. Thompson [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5891 bytes --] I mean there are GNU programs whose authors are almost entirely transgender (on the feminine spectrum of gender identity). I won't name the project in case some members don't want to be outed... yeah. this recent media campaign against RMS is pure slander. Nothing would make me happier than RMS being reinstated at the FSF, because he didn't deserve any of the shit thrown at him On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:51:15 +0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote: > > The saddest part is that the rightwing media slamming him for his > misspoken words about Epstein do not care about womens rights... while > slandering him and quoting him out of context to make it look like he > supports a serial rapist (which he absolutely *does not*). They are > mostly authored and run by men, who grew up in a male dominated > culture, who don't give a second thought to women. They were jumping > on a bandwagon of RMS-bashing because it gives them more readers... > and it advances their agenda. > > RMS has said (in this very email list) that while he has stepped down > from the FSF, he will remain as leader of the GNU project. This makes > me happy at least. > > On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:46:27 +0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> > wrote: > > > > > The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights > > in the free software world. He has said some stupid things in the > > past, but he's a really nice guy and really supportive. He's always > > there to answer emails and offer guidance on things. He is one of > > my role models. > > > > He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I > > came out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all. > > Later on I accused him and others of stuff and the project was > > ejected from GNU; but he's a really nice guy. I later regretted the > > stuff I said about him (back then I was ignorant and really fucked > > up as a person). He came to me *personally* (via email) a few > > months ago when he was working on a new article on his blog about > > using gender neutral pronouns in his talks/articles, and asked me > > to proofread it and offer constructive criticism (he emailed the > > draft to others too). > > > > The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning > > autistic... like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without > > taking into account how other people will feel (because he can't. > > which is OK. I don't understand other peoples emotions either). > > > > It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much. > > He didn't deserve any of the abuse he got. > > > > On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:36:56 +0000 'smee via > > libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > > > > That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though > > > that there may be real people who see the coordinated attack > > > (maybe not seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity > > > to air their grievances or share their experiences. > > > > > > They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do > > > better to consider that they're real people. I care about real > > > people and real grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks, > > > and how they play on real people's emotions, are despicable. > > > > > > Thanks for your input. > > > > > > > > > > Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to > > > > notice the blatant astroturfing > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > > > -- > > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> > > Company Director & Libreboot developer > > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ > > > > Do you know you have rights? > > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read > > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on > > and censored by the government. > > > > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. > > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! > > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > > > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. > > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 > > VAT Registration No. GB202190462 > > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island > > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom > > United Kingdom > > > -- > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> > Company Director & Libreboot developer > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ > > Do you know you have rights? > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on > and censored by the government. > > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 > VAT Registration No. GB202190462 > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom > United Kingdom -- Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-25 16:46 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 16:51 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 20:21 ` Matt Ivie 2019-09-26 0:43 ` Apologies A. Mani 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Matt Ivie @ 2019-09-25 20:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4197 bytes --] On Wed, 2019-09-25 at 17:46 +0100, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss wrote: > The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in > the free software world. He has said some stupid things in the past, > but he's a really nice guy and really supportive. He's always there > to > answer emails and offer guidance on things. He is one of my role > models. > In my observation he's always supported equal rights for everyone. I've never seen anything from him that contradicts that. > He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I came > out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all. Later on > I > accused him and others of stuff and the project was ejected from GNU; > but he's a really nice guy. I later regretted the stuff I said about > him (back then I was ignorant and really fucked up as a person). He > came > to me *personally* (via email) a few months ago when he was working > on a > new article on his blog about using gender neutral pronouns in his > talks/articles, and asked me to proofread it and offer constructive > criticism (he emailed the draft to others too). > > The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning > autistic... > like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account > how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't > understand other peoples emotions either). > > It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much. > He > didn't deserve any of the abuse he got. > Many of the complaints that are being made against him seem to be coming from jokes he has made or opinions he has that people don't agree with. The difficult thing about all of these complaints is that they are hard to verify and it is one person's telling of the event. By saying this I don't mean any disrespect to people that have come forward with a complaint against him. A behavior that is bothering me is that there are people that are attacking him as a person, but not specifically criticizing the things he's said. It's one thing to be offended by a joke that you find in bad taste, or to disagree with someone's opinion but to attack that person's character simply on those grounds, I find a bit excessive. I've observed that in the past RMS has made changes to his jokes and adjusted his opinions based on feedback and consideration of the material. I think it is okay to disagree with his ideas but it has made me sad to see some of these personal attacks. Leah, this is not directed at you but your comment really got me thinking specifically about this. I think we're all heading in the right direction as a community and we're trying to mend. I'd like to echo what someone else said on another thread and just say that I appreciate the positive tone and the respectful discussion that everyone is having. Free Software! Respectfully Matt Ivie > On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:36:56 +0000 'smee via > libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > > That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though that > > there may be real people who see the coordinated attack (maybe not > > seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity to air their > > grievances or share their experiences. > > > > They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do > > better > > to consider that they're real people. I care about real people and > > real grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks, and how they > > play on real people's emotions, are despicable. > > > > Thanks for your input. > > > > > > > Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to > > > notice the blatant astroturfing > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 659 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-25 16:46 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 16:51 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 20:21 ` Apologies Matt Ivie @ 2019-09-26 0:43 ` A. Mani 2019-09-26 0:49 ` Apologies Caleb Herbert 2019-09-26 8:59 ` Apologies Federico Leva (Nemo) 2 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: A. Mani @ 2019-09-26 0:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Rowe Cc: 'smee via libreplanet-discuss, 'smee, Aaron Wolf, Adrienne G. Thompson On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 10:19 PM Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in > the free software world. This is false. Both RMS and FSF's work on encouraging women, diversity issues and inclusion has not been good enough. Just because there are other sexist patriarchs in the FOSS movement does not make RMS a champion ... RMS grew up in a very patriarchal, and sexist society, and the deliberate unrepentant silence on past mistakes has had its effect. > He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I came > out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all. Later on I > accused him and others of stuff and the project was ejected from GNU; This surprised me, because RMS was definitely aware of inclusion, and diversity efforts (including trans issues) through GLUG Kolkata (of which I was the coordinator all through). In fact activities initiated through other Women in free software groups by me were cross posted there. > > The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic... > like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account > how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't > understand other peoples emotions either). That is no excuse. > It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much. He > didn't deserve any of the abuse he got. A couple of reports are inaccurate, but many that have pointed out the glaring mistakes made. RMS should listen to them. As far as conspiracy theories are concerned some people from this company ( https://fortune.com/2019/03/27/salesforce-lawsuit-backpage-sex-trafficking/) tweeted few lines about RMS. .... minor stuff. Best A Mani Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE Senior Member, International Rough Set Society Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/ Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-26 0:43 ` Apologies A. Mani @ 2019-09-26 0:49 ` Caleb Herbert 2019-09-26 13:17 ` Apologies A. Mani 2019-09-26 8:59 ` Apologies Federico Leva (Nemo) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Caleb Herbert @ 2019-09-26 0:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 472 bytes --] On 09/25/2019 07:43 PM, A. Mani wrote: >> The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic... >> like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account >> how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't >> understand other peoples emotions either). > > That is no excuse. If I had as little mercy as you, I could accuse you of being ableist right now. -- Caleb Herbert KE0VVT 816-892-9669 https://bluehome.net/csh [-- Attachment #2: csh.vcf --] [-- Type: text/x-vcard, Size: 275 bytes --] begin:vcard fn:Caleb Herbert n:Herbert;Caleb adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America email;internet:csh@bluehome.net tel;home:816-869-3111 tel;cell:816-892-9669 note:KE0VVT x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:https://bluehome.net/csh/ version:2.1 end:vcard [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-26 0:49 ` Apologies Caleb Herbert @ 2019-09-26 13:17 ` A. Mani 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: A. Mani @ 2019-09-26 13:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Caleb Herbert; +Cc: Libreplanet-discuss On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 6:21 AM Caleb Herbert <csh@bluehome.net> wrote: > > On 09/25/2019 07:43 PM, A. Mani wrote: > > >> The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic... > >> like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account > >> how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't > >> understand other peoples emotions either). > > > > That is no excuse. > > If I had as little mercy as you, I could accuse you of being ableist > right now. That is a wrong characterization of autism. At most people with autism may have some difficulty in understanding indirect communication/ body language related to emotions. RMS has excellent communication skills Best A Mani Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE Senior Member, International Rough Set Society Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/ Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-26 0:43 ` Apologies A. Mani 2019-09-26 0:49 ` Apologies Caleb Herbert @ 2019-09-26 8:59 ` Federico Leva (Nemo) 2019-09-26 14:02 ` Apologies A. Mani 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Federico Leva (Nemo) @ 2019-09-26 8:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: A. Mani, Leah Rowe Cc: Aaron Wolf, 'smee, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss, Adrienne G. Thompson A. Mani, 26/09/19 03:43: >> The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in >> the free software world. > This is false. Uh? It's one thing to say that some actions were not enough, and another to deny facts which are demonstrably true. It's trivial to find RMS statements in support of women rights from 2000 because they're on <https://stallman.org/archives/archive-2000.html>. It's also rather easy to show that RMS has strongly advocated for GNU to support both software freedom and women rights since before 1993. How many other prominent free software maintainers were doing the same back then? Genuine question, I have no idea. From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing#1990s> it seems some of the earlier efforts were in 1994. Remember that «By the 1990s, computing was dominated by men. The proportion of female computer science graduates peaked in 1984 around 37 per cent, and then steadily declined» (quoted from the same section). https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=357629765 https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2017/aug/10/how-the-tech-industry-wrote-women-out-of-history Federico _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-26 8:59 ` Apologies Federico Leva (Nemo) @ 2019-09-26 14:02 ` A. Mani 2019-09-26 15:53 ` Apologies Federico Leva (Nemo) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: A. Mani @ 2019-09-26 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Federico Leva (Nemo) Cc: Aaron Wolf, Leah Rowe, 'smee, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss, Adrienne G. Thompson On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:29 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki@gmail.com> wrote: > > A. Mani, 26/09/19 03:43: > >> The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in > >> the free software world. > > This is false. > > Uh? It's one thing to say that some actions were not enough, and another > to deny facts which are demonstrably true. > > It's trivial to find RMS statements in support of women rights from 2000 > because they're on <https://stallman.org/archives/archive-2000.html>. > It's also rather easy to show that RMS has strongly advocated for GNU to > support both software freedom and women rights since before 1993. > The point under discussion was "women's rights in free software world". In stallman.org, RMS is concerned with political rights and freedom. RMS has rarely been concerned with the issues considered in geekfeminism wikia or linuxchix or the women in <free software> groups. "stallman.org" confirms a general lack of feminist engagement. Even the question of 'encouraging women in computing' is strangely never considered. Best A Mani Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE Senior Member, International Rough Set Society Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/ Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-26 14:02 ` Apologies A. Mani @ 2019-09-26 15:53 ` Federico Leva (Nemo) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Federico Leva (Nemo) @ 2019-09-26 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: A. Mani Cc: Aaron Wolf, Leah Rowe, 'smee, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss, Adrienne G. Thompson A. Mani, 26/09/19 17:02: > The point under discussion was "women's rights in free software world". Yes, and RMS has always strongly advocated for them, against people who argued GNU should be apolitical and so on. Federico _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-24 17:42 Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-24 17:56 ` Apologies Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-25 13:25 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 13:28 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'smee; +Cc: 'smee via libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1736 bytes --] I'm on the feminine side of gender identity, and I don't find your post offensive. I *did* find it naive; you're a guy so you don't directly experience sexism towards you, but I thought your reply to Deb was you just innocently asking for examples of what she was talking about. Of which there are plenty (of examples). I'm not really interested in this discussion myself, but I'm just weighing in here to reassure you. On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:42:26 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better > in the future to consider that there are real people with real > concerns and try not to be combative. > > > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss -- Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-25 13:25 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 13:28 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 14:56 ` Apologies Deb Nicholson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Rowe; +Cc: 'smee, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2782 bytes --] (having said that, I *have* seen some quite nasty sexism in some projects. most notably the coreboot project - most of those guys are fine, but there are a few bad apples i've met in there) On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:25:52 +0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote: > > I'm on the feminine side of gender identity, and I don't find your > post offensive. I *did* find it naive; you're a guy so you don't > directly experience sexism towards you, but I thought your reply to > Deb was you just innocently asking for examples of what she was > talking about. > > Of which there are plenty (of examples). I'm not really interested in > this discussion myself, but I'm just weighing in here to reassure you. > > On > Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:42:26 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss > <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to > > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. > > > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better > > in the future to consider that there are real people with real > > concerns and try not to be combative. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > -- > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> > Company Director & Libreboot developer > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ > > Do you know you have rights? > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on > and censored by the government. > > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 > VAT Registration No. GB202190462 > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom > United Kingdom -- Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Apologies 2019-09-25 13:28 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-25 14:56 ` Deb Nicholson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Deb Nicholson @ 2019-09-25 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Rowe; +Cc: 'smee, 'smee via libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3364 bytes --] Hi all, I was not offended by this. It was a little grumpy which 'smee apologized for and now it's over. I do appreciate people's efforts to stay civil and attempt to listen to each other, here and everywhere. Thanks, Deb On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 9:55 AM Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss < libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > (having said that, I *have* seen some quite nasty sexism in some > projects. most notably the coreboot project - most of those guys are > fine, but there are a few bad apples i've met in there) > > On Wed, 25 Sep > 2019 14:25:52 +0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote: > > > > > I'm on the feminine side of gender identity, and I don't find your > > post offensive. I *did* find it naive; you're a guy so you don't > > directly experience sexism towards you, but I thought your reply to > > Deb was you just innocently asking for examples of what she was > > talking about. > > > > Of which there are plenty (of examples). I'm not really interested in > > this discussion myself, but I'm just weighing in here to reassure you. > > > > On > > Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:42:26 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss > > <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > > > > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to > > > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. > > > > > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better > > > in the future to consider that there are real people with real > > > concerns and try not to be combative. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > > > -- > > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> > > Company Director & Libreboot developer > > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ > > > > Do you know you have rights? > > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read > > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on > > and censored by the government. > > > > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. > > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! > > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > > > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. > > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 > > VAT Registration No. GB202190462 > > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island > > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom > > United Kingdom > > > -- > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> > Company Director & Libreboot developer > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ > > Do you know you have rights? > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on > and censored by the government. > > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 > VAT Registration No. GB202190462 > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom > United Kingdom > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 4347 bytes --] Hi all, I was not offended by this. It was a little grumpy which 'smee apologized for and now it's over. I do appreciate people's efforts to stay civil and attempt to listen to each other, here and everywhere. Thanks, Deb On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 9:55 AM Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: (having said that, I *have* seen some quite nasty sexism in some projects. most notably the coreboot project - most of those guys are fine, but there are a few bad apples i've met in there) On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:25:52 +0100 Leah Rowe <[2]info@minifree.org> wrote: > > I'm on the feminine side of gender identity, and I don't find your > post offensive. I *did* find it naive; you're a guy so you don't > directly experience sexism towards you, but I thought your reply to > Deb was you just innocently asking for examples of what she was > talking about. > > Of which there are plenty (of examples). I'm not really interested in > this discussion myself, but I'm just weighing in here to reassure you. > > On > Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:42:26 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss > <[3]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to > > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. > > > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better > > in the future to consider that there are real people with real > > concerns and try not to be combative. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > [4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > [5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus s > > -- > Leah Rowe <[6]info@minifree.org> > Company Director & Libreboot developer > [7]https://minifree.org/ [8]https://libreboot.org/ > > Do you know you have rights? > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on > and censored by the government. > > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! > [9]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 > VAT Registration No. GB202190462 > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom > United Kingdom -- Leah Rowe <[10]info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer [11]https://minifree.org/ [12]https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! [13]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [14]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [15]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu ss References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. mailto:info@minifree.org 3. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 6. mailto:info@minifree.org 7. https://minifree.org/ 8. https://libreboot.org/ 9. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html 10. mailto:info@minifree.org 11. https://minifree.org/ 12. https://libreboot.org/ 13. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html 14. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 15. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2019-09-26 22:10 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 20+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2019-09-24 17:42 Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-24 17:56 ` Apologies Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-24 18:08 ` Apologies Aaron Wolf 2019-09-24 18:26 ` Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-24 19:03 ` Apologies Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-25 14:29 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 14:36 ` Apologies 'smee via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 16:46 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 16:51 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 16:53 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 20:21 ` Apologies Matt Ivie 2019-09-26 0:43 ` Apologies A. Mani 2019-09-26 0:49 ` Apologies Caleb Herbert 2019-09-26 13:17 ` Apologies A. Mani 2019-09-26 8:59 ` Apologies Federico Leva (Nemo) 2019-09-26 14:02 ` Apologies A. Mani 2019-09-26 15:53 ` Apologies Federico Leva (Nemo) 2019-09-25 13:25 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 13:28 ` Apologies Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-25 14:56 ` Apologies Deb Nicholson
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