Apologies

Apologies

['smee via libreplanet-discuss]

I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to
apologize and say I'll do better in the future. 

I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better in
the future to consider that there are real people with real concerns
and try not to be combative. 



_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1103 bytes --]

Gee 'Smee:

Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have reasonable
arguments with women without feeling like they're being "combative"? Are
you afraid someone might call you "sexist"?

I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or "combative".

Adrienne

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss <
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

> I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to
> apologize and say I'll do better in the future.
>
> I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better in
> the future to consider that there are real people with real concerns
> and try not to be combative.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss



-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 1472 bytes --]

   Gee 'Smee:
   Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have
   reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're being
   "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"?
   I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or "combative".
   Adrienne
   On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
   <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

     I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to
     apologize and say I'll do better in the future.
     I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better
     in
     the future to consider that there are real people with real concerns
     and try not to be combative.
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s

   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
   4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   5. http://codeartnow.com/
   6. http://www.abertheid.info/

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Aaron Wolf]

Adrienne, that's a valid concern. People shouldn't be walking on
eggshells. However, that's a misreading of the case here. This is more
like 'Smee realizing on self-reflection that they actually *were* making
assumptions and not being as considerate as they wish to be. I don't
think this apology was an insincere fear-based one but one in which it's
a modeling of holding oneself to a high standard.

Again, you're right in that we live in a context where *reasonable*
discourse gets grotesquely misrepresented and then people self-censor
out of fear. That is a totally valid problem, and we should not accept
it as okay.

At the same time, we should work to treat everyone with some
benefit-of-the-doubt and compassion. And there's nothing wrong with
apologizing for not living up to that standard, even if someone's worst
was *still* better than many people's normal.

If I write something from a defensive, reactionary mindset, I would hope
to recognize it and apologize if I failed to check myself before sending
it. That's independent from the fact that my emotional reactionary
writing might still be more respectful than most people's non-emotional
postings.


On 2019-09-24 10:56 a.m., Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
>    Gee 'Smee:
>    Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have
>    reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're being
>    "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"?
>    I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or "combative".
>    Adrienne
>    On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
>    <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> 
>      I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to
>      apologize and say I'll do better in the future.
>      I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better
>      in
>      the future to consider that there are real people with real concerns
>      and try not to be combative.
>      _______________________________________________
>      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
>      s
> 
>    --
>    Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
>    GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
>    Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com
>    Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info
>    Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
> 
> References
> 
>    1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
>    5. http://codeartnow.com/
>    6. http://www.abertheid.info/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 


_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

['smee via libreplanet-discuss]

Adrienne, I feel it's a fine line here as you make good points that i
try to keep in mind as well.

In this case, the catalyst for my apology was that Aaron emailed me off
list and made accurate insights into my replies (that Deb was acting in
bad faith, as I did assume that). Aaron only shared his experiences
with Deb and encouraged me to, basically be more diplomatic, which is
an area that I actually am working on.

I still think this campaign against RMS was coordinated (call me a
conspiracy nut) and that they are accomplishing some of their goals
right now. 

I won't likely censor myself too much but I will listen when someone
brings up a mistake I've possibly made, and I'll self reflect, and I'll
continue learning from people who are able to do things better than I
feel I can do them.

Thanks Adrienne for sticking up for free speech.


On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:08 -0700, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> Adrienne, that's a valid concern. People shouldn't be walking on
> eggshells. However, that's a misreading of the case here. This is
> more
> like 'Smee realizing on self-reflection that they actually *were*
> making
> assumptions and not being as considerate as they wish to be. I don't
> think this apology was an insincere fear-based one but one in which
> it's
> a modeling of holding oneself to a high standard.
> 
> Again, you're right in that we live in a context where *reasonable*
> discourse gets grotesquely misrepresented and then people self-censor
> out of fear. That is a totally valid problem, and we should not
> accept
> it as okay.
> 
> At the same time, we should work to treat everyone with some
> benefit-of-the-doubt and compassion. And there's nothing wrong with
> apologizing for not living up to that standard, even if someone's
> worst
> was *still* better than many people's normal.
> 
> If I write something from a defensive, reactionary mindset, I would
> hope
> to recognize it and apologize if I failed to check myself before
> sending
> it. That's independent from the fact that my emotional reactionary
> writing might still be more respectful than most people's non-
> emotional
> postings.
> 
> 
> On 2019-09-24 10:56 a.m., Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> >    Gee 'Smee:
> >    Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have
> >    reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're
> > being
> >    "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"?
> >    I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or
> > "combative".
> >    Adrienne
> >    On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
> >    <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> > 
> >      I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like
> > to
> >      apologize and say I'll do better in the future.
> >      I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do
> > better
> >      in
> >      the future to consider that there are real people with real
> > concerns
> >      and try not to be combative.
> >      _______________________________________________
> >      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >      [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >      [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-
> > discus
> >      s
> > 
> >    --
> >    Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
> >    GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
> >    Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com
> >    Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info
> >    Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
> > 
> > References
> > 
> >    1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >    2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >    3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di
> > scuss
> >    4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
> >    5. http://codeartnow.com/
> >    6. http://www.abertheid.info/
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3916 bytes --]

'Smee:

I still think this campaign against RMS was coordinated (call me a
> conspiracy nut) and that they are accomplishing some of their goals
> right now.
>

It was very well coordinated with the help of big money!


> Thanks Adrienne for sticking up for free speech.
>

You're welcome 'Smee. Have a nice day!!

Adrienne



>
>
> On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:08 -0700, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> > Adrienne, that's a valid concern. People shouldn't be walking on
> > eggshells. However, that's a misreading of the case here. This is
> > more
> > like 'Smee realizing on self-reflection that they actually *were*
> > making
> > assumptions and not being as considerate as they wish to be. I don't
> > think this apology was an insincere fear-based one but one in which
> > it's
> > a modeling of holding oneself to a high standard.
> >
> > Again, you're right in that we live in a context where *reasonable*
> > discourse gets grotesquely misrepresented and then people self-censor
> > out of fear. That is a totally valid problem, and we should not
> > accept
> > it as okay.
> >
> > At the same time, we should work to treat everyone with some
> > benefit-of-the-doubt and compassion. And there's nothing wrong with
> > apologizing for not living up to that standard, even if someone's
> > worst
> > was *still* better than many people's normal.
> >
> > If I write something from a defensive, reactionary mindset, I would
> > hope
> > to recognize it and apologize if I failed to check myself before
> > sending
> > it. That's independent from the fact that my emotional reactionary
> > writing might still be more respectful than most people's non-
> > emotional
> > postings.
> >
> >
> > On 2019-09-24 10:56 a.m., Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > >    Gee 'Smee:
> > >    Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't have
> > >    reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're
> > > being
> > >    "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"?
> > >    I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or
> > > "combative".
> > >    Adrienne
> > >    On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
> > >    <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >      I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like
> > > to
> > >      apologize and say I'll do better in the future.
> > >      I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do
> > > better
> > >      in
> > >      the future to consider that there are real people with real
> > > concerns
> > >      and try not to be combative.
> > >      _______________________________________________
> > >      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > >      [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > >      [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-
> > > discus
> > >      s
> > >
> > >    --
> > >    Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
> > >    GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
> > >    Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com
> > >    Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info
> > >    Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > >    1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > >    2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > >    3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di
> > > scuss
> > >    4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
> > >    5. http://codeartnow.com/
> > >    6. http://www.abertheid.info/
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > >
> >
> >
>


-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 5103 bytes --]

   'Smee:

     I still think this campaign against RMS was coordinated (call me a
     conspiracy nut) and that they are accomplishing some of their goals
     right now.

   It was very well coordinated with the help of big money!

     Thanks Adrienne for sticking up for free speech.

   You're welcome 'Smee. Have a nice day!!
   Adrienne

     On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:08 -0700, Aaron Wolf wrote:
     > Adrienne, that's a valid concern. People shouldn't be walking on
     > eggshells. However, that's a misreading of the case here. This is
     > more
     > like 'Smee realizing on self-reflection that they actually *were*
     > making
     > assumptions and not being as considerate as they wish to be. I
     don't
     > think this apology was an insincere fear-based one but one in
     which
     > it's
     > a modeling of holding oneself to a high standard.
     >
     > Again, you're right in that we live in a context where
     *reasonable*
     > discourse gets grotesquely misrepresented and then people
     self-censor
     > out of fear. That is a totally valid problem, and we should not
     > accept
     > it as okay.
     >
     > At the same time, we should work to treat everyone with some
     > benefit-of-the-doubt and compassion. And there's nothing wrong
     with
     > apologizing for not living up to that standard, even if someone's
     > worst
     > was *still* better than many people's normal.
     >
     > If I write something from a defensive, reactionary mindset, I
     would
     > hope
     > to recognize it and apologize if I failed to check myself before
     > sending
     > it. That's independent from the fact that my emotional reactionary
     > writing might still be more respectful than most people's non-
     > emotional
     > postings.
     >
     >
     > On 2019-09-24 10:56 a.m., Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
     > >    Gee 'Smee:
     > >    Things are getting a little out of hand. So now guys can't
     have
     > >    reasonable arguments with women without feeling like they're
     > > being
     > >    "combative"? Are you afraid someone might call you "sexist"?
     > >    I didn't see where you said anything objectionable or
     > > "combative".
     > >    Adrienne
     > >    On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:43 PM 'smee via
     libreplanet-discuss
     > >    <[1][1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
     > >
     > >      I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would
     like
     > > to
     > >      apologize and say I'll do better in the future.
     > >      I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll
     do
     > > better
     > >      in
     > >      the future to consider that there are real people with real
     > > concerns
     > >      and try not to be combative.
     > >      _______________________________________________
     > >      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     > >      [2][2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     > >
     [3][3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-
     > > discus
     > >      s
     > >
     > >    --
     > >    Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
     > >    GNU C-Graph - [4][4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
     > >    Code Art Now - [5][5]http://codeartnow.com
     > >    Abertheid Campaign - [6][6]http://www.abertheid.info
     > >    Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
     > >
     > > References
     > >
     > >    1. mailto:[7]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     > >    2. mailto:[8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     > >    3.
     [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di
     > > scuss
     > >    4. [10]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
     > >    5. [11]http://codeartnow.com/
     > >    6. [12]http://www.abertheid.info/
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     > > [13]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     > >
     [14]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     > >
     >
     >

   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [15]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [16]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [17]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-
   4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   5. http://codeartnow.com/
   6. http://www.abertheid.info/
   7. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di
  10. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
  11. http://codeartnow.com/
  12. http://www.abertheid.info/
  13. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  14. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  15. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
  16. http://codeartnow.com/
  17. http://www.abertheid.info/

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1736 bytes --]


I'm on the feminine side of gender identity, and I don't find your
post offensive. I *did* find it naive; you're a guy so you don't
directly experience sexism towards you, but I thought your reply to
Deb was you just innocently asking for examples of what she was
talking about.

Of which there are plenty (of examples). I'm not really interested in
this discussion myself, but I'm just weighing in here to reassure you.

On
Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:42:26 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
<libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

> I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to
> apologize and say I'll do better in the future. 
> 
> I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better
> in the future to consider that there are real people with real
> concerns and try not to be combative. 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2782 bytes --]


(having said that, I *have* seen some quite nasty sexism in some
projects. most notably the coreboot project - most of those guys are
fine, but there are a few bad apples i've met in there)

On Wed, 25 Sep
2019 14:25:52 +0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:

> 
> I'm on the feminine side of gender identity, and I don't find your
> post offensive. I *did* find it naive; you're a guy so you don't
> directly experience sexism towards you, but I thought your reply to
> Deb was you just innocently asking for examples of what she was
> talking about.
> 
> Of which there are plenty (of examples). I'm not really interested in
> this discussion myself, but I'm just weighing in here to reassure you.
> 
> On
> Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:42:26 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
> <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> 
> > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to
> > apologize and say I'll do better in the future. 
> > 
> > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better
> > in the future to consider that there are real people with real
> > concerns and try not to be combative. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> -- 
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> 
> Do you know you have rights?
> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> and censored by the government.
> 
> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> United Kingdom


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1045 bytes --]

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:26:37 +0000
'smee via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
wrote:

> I still think this campaign against RMS was coordinated (call me a
> conspiracy nut) and that they are accomplishing some of their goals
> right now. 

Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to notice
the blatant astroturfing

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

['smee via libreplanet-discuss]

That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though that
there may be real people who see the coordinated attack (maybe not
seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity to air their
grievances or share their experiences. 

They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do better
to consider that they're real people. I care about real people and real
grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks, and how they play on
real people's emotions, are despicable.

Thanks for your input.


> Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to notice
> the blatant astroturfing
> 

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Deb Nicholson]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3364 bytes --]

Hi all,
I was not offended by this. It was a little grumpy which 'smee apologized
for and now it's over. I do appreciate people's efforts to stay civil and
attempt to listen to each other, here and everywhere.
Thanks,
Deb

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 9:55 AM Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss <
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

>
> (having said that, I *have* seen some quite nasty sexism in some
> projects. most notably the coreboot project - most of those guys are
> fine, but there are a few bad apples i've met in there)
>
> On Wed, 25 Sep
> 2019 14:25:52 +0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm on the feminine side of gender identity, and I don't find your
> > post offensive. I *did* find it naive; you're a guy so you don't
> > directly experience sexism towards you, but I thought your reply to
> > Deb was you just innocently asking for examples of what she was
> > talking about.
> >
> > Of which there are plenty (of examples). I'm not really interested in
> > this discussion myself, but I'm just weighing in here to reassure you.
> >
> > On
> > Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:42:26 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
> > <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like to
> > > apologize and say I'll do better in the future.
> > >
> > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do better
> > > in the future to consider that there are real people with real
> > > concerns and try not to be combative.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> >
> > --
> > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> > Company Director & Libreboot developer
> > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> >
> > Do you know you have rights?
> > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> > and censored by the government.
> >
> > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> >
> > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> > VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> > United Kingdom
>
>
> --
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
>
> Do you know you have rights?
> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> and censored by the government.
>
> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>
> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> United Kingdom
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 4347 bytes --]

   Hi all,
   I was not offended by this. It was a little grumpy which 'smee
   apologized for and now it's over. I do appreciate people's efforts to
   stay civil and attempt to listen to each other, here and everywhere.
   Thanks,
   Deb
   On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 9:55 AM Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss
   <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

     (having said that, I *have* seen some quite nasty sexism in some
     projects. most notably the coreboot project - most of those guys are
     fine, but there are a few bad apples i've met in there)
     On Wed, 25 Sep
     2019 14:25:52 +0100 Leah Rowe <[2]info@minifree.org> wrote:
     >
     > I'm on the feminine side of gender identity, and I don't find your
     > post offensive. I *did* find it naive; you're a guy so you don't
     > directly experience sexism towards you, but I thought your reply
     to
     > Deb was you just innocently asking for examples of what she was
     > talking about.
     >
     > Of which there are plenty (of examples). I'm not really interested
     in
     > this discussion myself, but I'm just weighing in here to reassure
     you.
     >
     > On
     > Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:42:26 +0000 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
     > <[3]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
     >
     > > I was combative in my language with Deb earlier and would like
     to
     > > apologize and say I'll do better in the future.
     > >
     > > I assumed bad intentions and acted out of irritation. I'll do
     better
     > > in the future to consider that there are real people with real
     > > concerns and try not to be combative.
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     > > [4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     > >
     [5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s
     >
     > --
     > Leah Rowe <[6]info@minifree.org>
     > Company Director & Libreboot developer
     > [7]https://minifree.org/ [8]https://libreboot.org/
     >
     > Do you know you have rights?
     > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
     > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
     > and censored by the government.
     >
     > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
     > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
     > [9]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
     >
     > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
     > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
     > VAT Registration No. GB202190462
     > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
     > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
     > United Kingdom
     --
     Leah Rowe <[10]info@minifree.org>
     Company Director & Libreboot developer
     [11]https://minifree.org/ [12]https://libreboot.org/
     Do you know you have rights?
     The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
     and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
     and censored by the government.
     Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
     Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
     [13]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
     Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
     Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
     VAT Registration No. GB202190462
     Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
     Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
     United Kingdom
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [14]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [15]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss

References

   1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   2. mailto:info@minifree.org
   3. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
   6. mailto:info@minifree.org
   7. https://minifree.org/
   8. https://libreboot.org/
   9. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
  10. mailto:info@minifree.org
  11. https://minifree.org/
  12. https://libreboot.org/
  13. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
  14. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  15. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2946 bytes --]


The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in
the free software world. He has said some stupid things in the past,
but he's a really nice guy and really supportive. He's always there to
answer emails and offer guidance on things. He is one of my role models.

He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I came
out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all. Later on I
accused him and others of stuff and the project was ejected from GNU;
but he's a really nice guy. I later regretted the stuff I said about
him (back then I was ignorant and really fucked up as a person). He came
to me *personally* (via email) a few months ago when he was working on a
new article on his blog about using gender neutral pronouns in his
talks/articles, and asked me to proofread it and offer constructive
criticism (he emailed the draft to others too).

The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic...
like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account
how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't
understand other peoples emotions either).

It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much. He
didn't deserve any of the abuse he got. 

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:36:56 +0000 'smee via
libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

> That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though that
> there may be real people who see the coordinated attack (maybe not
> seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity to air their
> grievances or share their experiences. 
> 
> They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do better
> to consider that they're real people. I care about real people and
> real grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks, and how they
> play on real people's emotions, are despicable.
> 
> Thanks for your input.
> 
> 
> > Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to
> > notice the blatant astroturfing
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4522 bytes --]


The saddest part is that the rightwing media slamming him for his
misspoken words about Epstein do not care about womens rights... while
slandering him and quoting him out of context to make it look like he
supports a serial rapist (which he absolutely *does not*). They are
mostly authored and run by men, who grew up in a male dominated
culture, who don't give a second thought to women. They were jumping on
a bandwagon of RMS-bashing because it gives them more readers... and it
advances their agenda.

RMS has said (in this very email list) that while he has stepped down
from the FSF, he will remain as leader of the GNU project. This makes
me happy at least.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:46:27 +0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
wrote:

> 
> The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in
> the free software world. He has said some stupid things in the past,
> but he's a really nice guy and really supportive. He's always there to
> answer emails and offer guidance on things. He is one of my role
> models.
> 
> He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I came
> out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all. Later on
> I accused him and others of stuff and the project was ejected from
> GNU; but he's a really nice guy. I later regretted the stuff I said
> about him (back then I was ignorant and really fucked up as a
> person). He came to me *personally* (via email) a few months ago when
> he was working on a new article on his blog about using gender
> neutral pronouns in his talks/articles, and asked me to proofread it
> and offer constructive criticism (he emailed the draft to others too).
> 
> The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic...
> like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account
> how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't
> understand other peoples emotions either).
> 
> It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much. He
> didn't deserve any of the abuse he got. 
> 
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:36:56 +0000 'smee via
> libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> 
> > That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though that
> > there may be real people who see the coordinated attack (maybe not
> > seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity to air their
> > grievances or share their experiences. 
> > 
> > They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do
> > better to consider that they're real people. I care about real
> > people and real grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks, and
> > how they play on real people's emotions, are despicable.
> > 
> > Thanks for your input.
> > 
> > 
> > > Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to
> > > notice the blatant astroturfing
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> -- 
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> 
> Do you know you have rights?
> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> and censored by the government.
> 
> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> United Kingdom


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5891 bytes --]


I mean there are GNU programs whose authors are almost entirely
transgender (on the feminine spectrum of gender identity). I won't
name the project in case some members don't want to be outed...

yeah. this recent media campaign against RMS is pure slander. Nothing
would make me happier than RMS being reinstated at the FSF, because he
didn't deserve any of the shit thrown at him

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:51:15
+0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:

> 
> The saddest part is that the rightwing media slamming him for his
> misspoken words about Epstein do not care about womens rights... while
> slandering him and quoting him out of context to make it look like he
> supports a serial rapist (which he absolutely *does not*). They are
> mostly authored and run by men, who grew up in a male dominated
> culture, who don't give a second thought to women. They were jumping
> on a bandwagon of RMS-bashing because it gives them more readers...
> and it advances their agenda.
> 
> RMS has said (in this very email list) that while he has stepped down
> from the FSF, he will remain as leader of the GNU project. This makes
> me happy at least.
> 
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:46:27 +0100 Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights
> > in the free software world. He has said some stupid things in the
> > past, but he's a really nice guy and really supportive. He's always
> > there to answer emails and offer guidance on things. He is one of
> > my role models.
> > 
> > He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I
> > came out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all.
> > Later on I accused him and others of stuff and the project was
> > ejected from GNU; but he's a really nice guy. I later regretted the
> > stuff I said about him (back then I was ignorant and really fucked
> > up as a person). He came to me *personally* (via email) a few
> > months ago when he was working on a new article on his blog about
> > using gender neutral pronouns in his talks/articles, and asked me
> > to proofread it and offer constructive criticism (he emailed the
> > draft to others too).
> > 
> > The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning
> > autistic... like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without
> > taking into account how other people will feel (because he can't.
> > which is OK. I don't understand other peoples emotions either).
> > 
> > It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much.
> > He didn't deserve any of the abuse he got. 
> > 
> > On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:36:56 +0000 'smee via
> > libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though
> > > that there may be real people who see the coordinated attack
> > > (maybe not seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity
> > > to air their grievances or share their experiences. 
> > > 
> > > They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do
> > > better to consider that they're real people. I care about real
> > > people and real grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks,
> > > and how they play on real people's emotions, are despicable.
> > > 
> > > Thanks for your input.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to
> > > > notice the blatant astroturfing
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > 
> > -- 
> > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> > Company Director & Libreboot developer
> > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> > 
> > Do you know you have rights?
> > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> > and censored by the government.
> > 
> > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> > 
> > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> > VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> > United Kingdom
> 
> 
> -- 
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> 
> Do you know you have rights?
> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> and censored by the government.
> 
> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> United Kingdom


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Matt Ivie]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4197 bytes --]

On Wed, 2019-09-25 at 17:46 +0100, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss
wrote:
> The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in
> the free software world. He has said some stupid things in the past,
> but he's a really nice guy and really supportive. He's always there
> to
> answer emails and offer guidance on things. He is one of my role
> models.
> 
In my observation he's always supported equal rights for everyone. I've
never seen anything from him that contradicts that.

> He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I came
> out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all. Later on
> I
> accused him and others of stuff and the project was ejected from GNU;
> but he's a really nice guy. I later regretted the stuff I said about
> him (back then I was ignorant and really fucked up as a person). He
> came
> to me *personally* (via email) a few months ago when he was working
> on a
> new article on his blog about using gender neutral pronouns in his
> talks/articles, and asked me to proofread it and offer constructive
> criticism (he emailed the draft to others too).
> 
> The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning
> autistic...
> like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account
> how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't
> understand other peoples emotions either).
> 
> It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much.
> He
> didn't deserve any of the abuse he got. 
> 
Many of the complaints that are being made against him seem to be
coming from jokes he has made or opinions he has that people don't
agree with. The difficult thing about all of these complaints is that
they are hard to verify and it is one person's telling of the event. By
saying this I don't mean any disrespect to people that have come
forward with a complaint against him. 

A behavior that is bothering me is that there are people that are
attacking him as a person, but not specifically criticizing the things
he's said. It's one thing to be offended by a joke that you find in bad
taste, or to disagree with someone's opinion but to attack that
person's character simply on those grounds, I find a bit excessive.

I've observed that in the past RMS has made changes to his jokes and
adjusted his opinions based on feedback and consideration of the
material. I think it is okay to disagree with his ideas but it has made
me sad to see some of these personal attacks.

Leah, this is not directed at you but your comment really got me
thinking specifically about this. I think we're all heading in the
right direction as a community and we're trying to mend.

I'd like to echo what someone else said on another thread and just say
that I appreciate the positive tone and the respectful discussion that
everyone is having.

Free Software!

Respectfully
Matt Ivie

> On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:36:56 +0000 'smee via
> libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> 
> > That's what got me irritated. I'll have to keep in mind though that
> > there may be real people who see the coordinated attack (maybe not
> > seeing it for what it is) and see it as an opportunity to air their
> > grievances or share their experiences. 
> > 
> > They do deserve to be listened to (and questioned), but I'll do
> > better
> > to consider that they're real people. I care about real people and
> > real grievances. Coordinated, agenda-driven attacks, and how they
> > play on real people's emotions, are despicable.
> > 
> > Thanks for your input.
> > 
> > 
> > > Of course it was coordinated. You'd have to be an idiot not to
> > > notice the blatant astroturfing
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 659 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[A. Mani]

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 10:19 PM Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss
<libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in
> the free software world.

This is false. Both RMS and FSF's work on encouraging women, diversity
issues and inclusion has not been good enough. Just because there are
other sexist patriarchs in the FOSS movement does not make RMS a
champion ...
RMS grew up in a very patriarchal, and sexist society, and the
deliberate unrepentant silence on past mistakes has had its effect.

> He accepted my project (Libreboot) into the GNU project, after I came
> out as transgender for instance. It didn't phase him at all. Later on I
> accused him and others of stuff and the project was ejected from GNU;

This surprised me, because RMS was definitely aware of inclusion, and
diversity efforts (including trans issues) through GLUG Kolkata (of
which I was the coordinator all through). In fact activities initiated
through other Women in free software groups by me were cross posted
there.

>
> The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic...
> like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account
> how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't
> understand other peoples emotions either).

That is no excuse.

> It makes me really sad that he was brutalized by the media so much. He
> didn't deserve any of the abuse he got.

A couple of reports are inaccurate, but many that have pointed out the
glaring mistakes made. RMS should listen to them.


As far as conspiracy theories are concerned some people from this
company ( https://fortune.com/2019/03/27/salesforce-lawsuit-backpage-sex-trafficking/)
tweeted few lines about RMS. .... minor stuff.


Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Caleb Herbert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 472 bytes --]

On 09/25/2019 07:43 PM, A. Mani wrote:

>> The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic...
>> like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account
>> how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't
>> understand other peoples emotions either).
> 
> That is no excuse.

If I had as little mercy as you, I could accuse you of being ableist
right now.

-- 
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

[-- Attachment #2: csh.vcf --]
[-- Type: text/x-vcard, Size: 275 bytes --]

begin:vcard
fn:Caleb Herbert
n:Herbert;Caleb
adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America
email;internet:csh@bluehome.net
tel;home:816-869-3111
tel;cell:816-892-9669
note:KE0VVT
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:https://bluehome.net/csh/
version:2.1
end:vcard


[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

A. Mani, 26/09/19 03:43:
>> The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in
>> the free software world.
> This is false.

Uh? It's one thing to say that some actions were not enough, and another 
to deny facts which are demonstrably true.

It's trivial to find RMS statements in support of women rights from 2000 
because they're on <https://stallman.org/archives/archive-2000.html>. 
It's also rather easy to show that RMS has strongly advocated for GNU to 
support both software freedom and women rights since before 1993.

How many other prominent free software maintainers were doing the same 
back then? Genuine question, I have no idea. From 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing#1990s> it seems some 
of the earlier efforts were in 1994. Remember that «By the 1990s, 
computing was dominated by men. The proportion of female computer 
science graduates peaked in 1984 around 37 per cent, and then steadily 
declined» (quoted from the same section).
https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=357629765
https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2017/aug/10/how-the-tech-industry-wrote-women-out-of-history

Federico

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[A. Mani]

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 6:21 AM Caleb Herbert <csh@bluehome.net> wrote:
>
> On 09/25/2019 07:43 PM, A. Mani wrote:
>
> >> The thing is, I think Richard is probably high-functioning autistic...
> >> like me. He says stupid things sometimes, without taking into account
> >> how other people will feel (because he can't. which is OK. I don't
> >> understand other peoples emotions either).
> >
> > That is no excuse.
>
> If I had as little mercy as you, I could accuse you of being ableist
> right now.

That is a wrong characterization of autism.
At most people with autism may have some difficulty in understanding
indirect communication/ body language related to emotions. RMS has
excellent communication skills


Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[A. Mani]

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:29 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A. Mani, 26/09/19 03:43:
> >> The sad thing is that RMS is one of the champions of womens rights in
> >> the free software world.
> > This is false.
>
> Uh? It's one thing to say that some actions were not enough, and another
> to deny facts which are demonstrably true.
>
> It's trivial to find RMS statements in support of women rights from 2000
> because they're on <https://stallman.org/archives/archive-2000.html>.
> It's also rather easy to show that RMS has strongly advocated for GNU to
> support both software freedom and women rights since before 1993.
>


The point under discussion was "women's rights in free software world".
In stallman.org, RMS is concerned with political rights and freedom.
RMS has rarely been concerned with the issues considered in
geekfeminism wikia or linuxchix or the women in <free software>
groups. "stallman.org" confirms a general lack of feminist engagement.
Even the question of 'encouraging women in computing' is strangely
never considered.


Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Apologies

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

A. Mani, 26/09/19 17:02:
> The point under discussion was "women's rights in free software world".

Yes, and RMS has always strongly advocated for them, against people who 
argued GNU should be apolitical and so on.

Federico

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss