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From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
To: demerphq <demerphq@gmail.com>
Cc: Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>,
	Brandon Williams <bmwill@google.com>,
	Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Git Mailing List <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	Stefan Beller <sbeller@google.com>,
	jonathantanmy@google.com, Jeff King <peff@peff.net>,
	David Lang <david@lang.hm>,
	"brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>
Subject: Re: RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 15:51:58 -0700
Message-ID: <20170913225158.GR27425@aiede.mtv.corp.google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CANgJU+Wv1nx79DJTDmYE=O7LUNA3LuRTJhXJn+y0L0C3R+YDEA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Yves wrote:
> On 13 September 2017 at 14:05, Johannes Schindelin

>> For example, I am still in favor of SHA-256 over SHA3-256, after learning
>> some background details from in-house cryptographers: it provides
>> essentially the same level of security, according to my sources, while
>> hardware support seems to be coming to SHA-256 a lot sooner than to
>> SHA3-256.
>
> FWIW, and I know it is not worth much, as far as I can tell there is
> at least some security/math basis to prefer SHA3-256 to SHA-256.

Thanks for spelling this out.  From my (very cursory) understanding of
the math, what you are saying makes sense.  I think there were some
hints of this topic on-list before, but not made so explicit before.

Here's my summary of the discussion of other aspects of the choice of
hash functions so far:

My understanding from asking cryptographers matches what Dscho said.
One of the lessons of the history of hash functions is that some kinds
of attempts to improve the security margin of a hash function do not
help as much as expected once a function is broken.

In practice, what we are looking for is

- is the algorithm broken, or likely to be broken soon
- do the algorithm's guarantees match the application
- is the algorithm fast enough
- are high quality implementations widely available

On that first question, every well informed person I have asked has
assured me that SHA-256, SHA-512, SHA-512/256, SHA-256x16, SHA3-256,
K12, BLAKE2bp-256, etc are equally likely to be broken in the next 10
years.  The main difference for the longevity question is that some of
those algorithms have had more scrutiny than others, but all have had
significant scrutiny.  See [1] and the surrounding thread for more
discussion on that.

On the second question, SHA-256 is vulnerable to length extension
attacks, which means it would not be usable as a MAC directly (instead
of using the HMAC construction).  Fortunately Git doesn't use its hash
function that way.

On the third question, SHA-256 is one of the slower ones, even with
hardware accelaration, but it should be fast enough.

On the fourth question, SHA-256 shines.  See [2].  That is where I had
thought the conversation ended up.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty happy both with the level of scrutiny
we've given to this question and SHA-256 as an answer.  Luckily even
if at the last minute we learn something that changes the choice of
hash function, that would not significantly affect the transition
plan, so we have a chance to learn more.

See also [3].

Thanks,
Jonathan

[1] https://public-inbox.org/git/CAL9PXLzhPyE+geUdcLmd=pidT5P8eFEBbSgX_dS88knz2q_LSw@mail.gmail.com/#t
[2] https://public-inbox.org/git/xmqq37azy7ru.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com/
[3] https://www.imperialviolet.org/2017/05/31/skipsha3.html,
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14453622

  reply index

Thread overview: 113+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-03-04  1:12 RFC: " Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-05  2:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-06  0:26   ` brian m. carlson
2017-03-06 18:24     ` Brandon Williams
2017-06-15 10:30       ` Which hash function to use, was " Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 11:05         ` Mike Hommey
2017-06-15 13:01           ` Jeff King
2017-06-15 16:30             ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-15 19:34               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 21:59                 ` Adam Langley
2017-06-15 22:41                   ` brian m. carlson
2017-06-15 23:36                     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16  0:17                       ` brian m. carlson
2017-06-16  6:25                         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16 13:24                           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-16 17:38                             ` Adam Langley
2017-06-16 20:52                               ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-16 21:12                                 ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-16 21:24                                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-06-16 21:39                                     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16 20:42                             ` Jeff King
2017-06-19  9:26                               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 21:10             ` Mike Hommey
2017-06-16  4:30               ` Jeff King
2017-06-15 17:36         ` Brandon Williams
2017-06-15 19:20           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-15 19:13         ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-07  0:17   ` RFC v3: " Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-09 19:14     ` Shawn Pearce
2017-03-09 20:24       ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-10 19:38         ` Jeff King
2017-03-10 19:55           ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-28  4:43       ` [PATCH v4] technical doc: add a design doc for hash function transition Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-29  6:06         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-29  8:09           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-29 17:34           ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-10-02  8:25             ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-02 19:41             ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02  9:02         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-02 19:23         ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-03  5:40         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-03 13:08           ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-04  1:44         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-06  6:28     ` RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan Junio C Hamano
2017-09-08  2:40       ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-08  3:34         ` Jeff King
2017-09-11 18:59         ` Brandon Williams
2017-09-13 12:05           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 13:43             ` demerphq
2017-09-13 22:51               ` Jonathan Nieder [this message]
2017-09-14 18:26                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 18:40                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14 22:09                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 23:30               ` Linus Torvalds
2017-09-14 18:45                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-18 12:17                   ` Gilles Van Assche
2017-09-18 22:16                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-19 16:45                       ` Gilles Van Assche
2017-09-29 13:17                         ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-29 14:54                           ` Joan Daemen
2017-09-29 22:33                             ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-30 22:02                               ` Joan Daemen
2017-10-02 14:26                                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-18 22:25                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-26 17:05                   ` Jason Cooper
2017-09-26 22:11                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-26 22:25                       ` [PATCH] technical doc: add a design doc for hash function transition Stefan Beller
2017-09-26 23:38                         ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-26 23:51                       ` RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan Jonathan Nieder
2017-10-02 14:54                         ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02 16:50                           ` Brandon Williams
2017-10-02 14:00                       ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02 17:18                         ` Linus Torvalds
2017-10-02 19:37                           ` Jeff King
2017-09-13 16:30             ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-13 21:52               ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-13 22:07                 ` Stefan Beller
2017-09-13 22:18                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14  2:13                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-14 15:23                       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 15:45                         ` demerphq
2017-09-14 22:06                           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 22:15                 ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-13 22:27                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14  2:10                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-14 12:39               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 16:36                 ` Brandon Williams
2017-09-14 18:49                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-15 20:42                   ` Philip Oakley
2017-03-05 11:02 ` RFC: " David Lang
     [not found]   ` <CA+dhYEXHbQfJ6KUB1tWS9u1MLEOJL81fTYkbxu4XO-i+379LPw@mail.gmail.com>
2017-03-06  9:43     ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 23:40   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-07  0:03     ` Mike Hommey
2017-03-06  8:43 ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 18:39   ` Jonathan Tan
2017-03-06 19:22     ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-06 19:59       ` Brandon Williams
2017-03-06 21:53       ` Junio C Hamano
2017-03-07  8:59     ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 18:43   ` Junio C Hamano
2017-03-07 18:57 ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-07 19:15   ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-08 11:20     ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-08 15:37       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-03-08 15:40       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-03-20  5:21         ` Use base32? Jason Hennessey
2017-03-20  5:58           ` Michael Steuer
2017-03-20  8:05             ` Jacob Keller
2017-03-21  3:07               ` Michael Steuer
2017-03-13  9:24 ` RFC: Another proposed hash function transition plan The Keccak Team
2017-03-13 17:48   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-13 18:34     ` ankostis
2017-03-17 11:07       ` Johannes Schindelin

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