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From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
To: Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>
Cc: Brandon Williams <bmwill@google.com>,
	Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Git Mailing List <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	Stefan Beller <sbeller@google.com>,
	jonathantanmy@google.com, Jeff King <peff@peff.net>,
	David Lang <david@lang.hm>,
	"brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>
Subject: Re: RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:30:52 -0700
Message-ID: <20170913163052.GA27425@aiede.mtv.corp.google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1.1709131340030.4132@virtualbox>

Hi Dscho,

Johannes Schindelin wrote:

> So even if the code to generate a bidirectional old <-> new hash mapping
> might be with us forever, it *definitely* should be optional ("optional"
> at least as in "config setting"), allowing developers who only work with
> new-hash repositories to save the time and electrons.

Agreed.  This is a good reason not to store the sha1 inside the
sha256-encoded objects.  I think that is exactly what Brandon was saying
in response to Junio --- did you read it differently?

[...]
> ... or Git would simply handle the absence of the generation number header
> gracefully, so that sha1-content == sha3-content...

Part of the sha1-content is references to other objects using their
sha1-name, so it is not possible to have sha1-content == sha3-content.

That said, I am also leaning against including generation numbers as
part of this design.

There is an argument for including generation numbers.  It is much
simpler to have generation numbers in *all* commit objects than only in
some, since it means the slop-based heuristics for faking generation
numbers using commit timestamp can be completely avoided for a
repository using such a format.  Including generation numbers in all
commit objects is a painless thing to do during a format change, since
it can happen without harming round-tripping.

Treating generation numbers as derived data (as in Jeff King's
preferred design, if I have understood his replies correctly) would
also be possible but it does not interact well with shallow clone or
narrow clone.

All that said, for simplicity I still lean against including
generation numbers as part of a hash function transition.  Nothing
stops us from having another format change later.

This is a particularly hard decision because I don't have a strong
preference.  That leads me to err on the side of simplicity.

I will make sure to discuss this issue in my patch to
Documentation/technical/, so we don't have to repeat the same
conversations again and again.

[...]
> Taking a step back, though, it may be a good idea to leave the generation
> number business for later, as much fun as it is to get side tracked and
> focus on relatively trivial stuff instead of the far more difficult and
> complex task to get the transition plan to a new hash ironed out.
>
> For example, I am still in favor of SHA-256 over SHA3-256, after learning
> some background details from in-house cryptographers: it provides
> essentially the same level of security, according to my sources, while
> hardware support seems to be coming to SHA-256 a lot sooner than to
> SHA3-256.
>
> Which hash algorithm to choose is a tough question to answer, and
> discussing generation numbers will sadly not help us answer it any quicker.

This is unrelated to Brandon's message, except for his use of SHA3 as
a placeholder for "the next hash function".

My assumption based on previous conversations (and other external
conversations like [1]) is that we are going to use SHA2-256 and have
a pretty strong consensus for that.  Don't worry!

As a side note, I am probably misreading, but I found this set of
paragraphs a bit condescending.  It sounds to me like you are saying
"You are making the wrong choice of hash function and everything else
you are describing is irrelevant when compared to that monumental
mistake.  Please stop working on things I don't consider important".
With that reading it is quite demotivating to read.

An alternative reading is that you are saying that the transition plan
described in this thread is not ironed out.  Can you spell that out
more?  What particular aspect of the transition plan (which is of
course orthogonal to the choice of hash function) are you discontent
with?

Thanks and hope that helps,
Jonathan

[1] https://www.imperialviolet.org/2017/05/31/skipsha3.html

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 113+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-03-04  1:12 RFC: " Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-05  2:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-06  0:26   ` brian m. carlson
2017-03-06 18:24     ` Brandon Williams
2017-06-15 10:30       ` Which hash function to use, was " Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 11:05         ` Mike Hommey
2017-06-15 13:01           ` Jeff King
2017-06-15 16:30             ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-15 19:34               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 21:59                 ` Adam Langley
2017-06-15 22:41                   ` brian m. carlson
2017-06-15 23:36                     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16  0:17                       ` brian m. carlson
2017-06-16  6:25                         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16 13:24                           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-16 17:38                             ` Adam Langley
2017-06-16 20:52                               ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-16 21:12                                 ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-16 21:24                                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-06-16 21:39                                     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16 20:42                             ` Jeff King
2017-06-19  9:26                               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 21:10             ` Mike Hommey
2017-06-16  4:30               ` Jeff King
2017-06-15 17:36         ` Brandon Williams
2017-06-15 19:20           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-15 19:13         ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-07  0:17   ` RFC v3: " Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-09 19:14     ` Shawn Pearce
2017-03-09 20:24       ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-10 19:38         ` Jeff King
2017-03-10 19:55           ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-28  4:43       ` [PATCH v4] technical doc: add a design doc for hash function transition Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-29  6:06         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-29  8:09           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-29 17:34           ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-10-02  8:25             ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-02 19:41             ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02  9:02         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-02 19:23         ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-03  5:40         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-03 13:08           ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-04  1:44         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-06  6:28     ` RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan Junio C Hamano
2017-09-08  2:40       ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-08  3:34         ` Jeff King
2017-09-11 18:59         ` Brandon Williams
2017-09-13 12:05           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 13:43             ` demerphq
2017-09-13 22:51               ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14 18:26                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 18:40                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14 22:09                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 23:30               ` Linus Torvalds
2017-09-14 18:45                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-18 12:17                   ` Gilles Van Assche
2017-09-18 22:16                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-19 16:45                       ` Gilles Van Assche
2017-09-29 13:17                         ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-29 14:54                           ` Joan Daemen
2017-09-29 22:33                             ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-30 22:02                               ` Joan Daemen
2017-10-02 14:26                                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-18 22:25                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-26 17:05                   ` Jason Cooper
2017-09-26 22:11                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-26 22:25                       ` [PATCH] technical doc: add a design doc for hash function transition Stefan Beller
2017-09-26 23:38                         ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-26 23:51                       ` RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan Jonathan Nieder
2017-10-02 14:54                         ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02 16:50                           ` Brandon Williams
2017-10-02 14:00                       ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02 17:18                         ` Linus Torvalds
2017-10-02 19:37                           ` Jeff King
2017-09-13 16:30             ` Jonathan Nieder [this message]
2017-09-13 21:52               ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-13 22:07                 ` Stefan Beller
2017-09-13 22:18                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14  2:13                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-14 15:23                       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 15:45                         ` demerphq
2017-09-14 22:06                           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 22:15                 ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-13 22:27                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14  2:10                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-14 12:39               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 16:36                 ` Brandon Williams
2017-09-14 18:49                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-15 20:42                   ` Philip Oakley
2017-03-05 11:02 ` RFC: " David Lang
     [not found]   ` <CA+dhYEXHbQfJ6KUB1tWS9u1MLEOJL81fTYkbxu4XO-i+379LPw@mail.gmail.com>
2017-03-06  9:43     ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 23:40   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-07  0:03     ` Mike Hommey
2017-03-06  8:43 ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 18:39   ` Jonathan Tan
2017-03-06 19:22     ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-06 19:59       ` Brandon Williams
2017-03-06 21:53       ` Junio C Hamano
2017-03-07  8:59     ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 18:43   ` Junio C Hamano
2017-03-07 18:57 ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-07 19:15   ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-08 11:20     ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-08 15:37       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-03-08 15:40       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-03-20  5:21         ` Use base32? Jason Hennessey
2017-03-20  5:58           ` Michael Steuer
2017-03-20  8:05             ` Jacob Keller
2017-03-21  3:07               ` Michael Steuer
2017-03-13  9:24 ` RFC: Another proposed hash function transition plan The Keccak Team
2017-03-13 17:48   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-13 18:34     ` ankostis
2017-03-17 11:07       ` Johannes Schindelin

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