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From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
To: Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>
Cc: Brandon Williams <bmwill@google.com>,
	"brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Git Mailing List <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	Stefan Beller <sbeller@google.com>,
	jonathantanmy@google.com, Jeff King <peff@peff.net>,
	Junio Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Which hash function to use, was Re: RFC: Another proposed hash function transition plan
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:13:05 -0700
Message-ID: <20170615191151.GA45444@aiede.mtv.corp.google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1.1706151122180.4200@virtualbox>

Hi Dscho,

Johannes Schindelin wrote:

> From what I read, pretty much everybody who participated in the discussion
> was aware that the essential question is: performance vs security.

I don't completely agree with this framing.  The essential question is:
how to get the right security properties without abysmal performance.

> It turns out that we can have essentially both.
>
> SHA-256 is most likely the best-studied hash function we currently know
[... etc ...]

Thanks for a thoughtful restart to the discussion.  This is much more
concrete than your previous objections about process, and that is very
helpful.

In the interest of transparency: here are my current questions for
cryptographers to whom I have forwarded this thread.  Several of these
questions involve predictions or opinions, so in my ideal world we'd
want multiple, well reasoned answers to them.  Please feel free to
forward them to appropriate people or add more.

 1. Now it sounds like SHA-512/256 is the safest choice (see also Mike
    Hommey's response to Dscho's message).  Please poke holes in my
    understanding.

 2. Would you be willing to weigh in publicly on the mailing list? I
    think that would be the most straightforward way to move this
    forward (and it would give you a chance to ask relevant questions,
    etc).  Feel free to contact me privately if you have any questions
    about how this particular mailing list works.

 3. On the speed side, Dscho states "SHA-256 will be faster than BLAKE
    (and even than BLAKE2) once the Intel and AMD CPUs with hardware
    support for SHA-256 become common."  Do you agree?

 4. On the security side, Dscho states "to compete in the SHA-3
    contest, BLAKE added complexity so that it would be roughly on par
    with its competitors.  To allow for faster execution in software,
    this complexity was *removed* from BLAKE to create BLAKE2, making
    it weaker than SHA-256."  Putting aside the historical questions,
    do you agree with this "weaker than" claim?

 5. On the security side, Dscho states, "The type of attacks Git has to
    worry about is very different from the length extension attacks,
    and it is highly unlikely that that weakness of SHA-256 leads to,
    say, a collision attack", and Jeff King states, "Git does not use
    the hash as a MAC, so length extension attacks aren't a thing (and
    even if we later wanted to use the same algorithm as a MAC, the
    HMAC construction is a well-studied technique for dealing with
    it)."  Is this correct in spirit?  Is SHA-256 equally strong to
    SHA-512/256 for Git's purposes, or are the increased bits of
    internal state (or other differences) relevant?  How would you
    compare the two functions' properties?

 6. On the speed side, Jeff King states "That said, SHA-512 is
    typically a little faster than SHA-256 on 64-bit platforms. I
    don't know if that will change with the advent of hardware
    instructions oriented towards SHA-256."  Thoughts?

 7. If the answer to (2) is "no", do I have permission to quote or
    paraphrase your replies that were given here?

Thanks, sincerely,
Jonathan

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 112+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-03-04  1:12 Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-05  2:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-06  0:26   ` brian m. carlson
2017-03-06 18:24     ` Brandon Williams
2017-06-15 10:30       ` Which hash function to use, was " Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 11:05         ` Mike Hommey
2017-06-15 13:01           ` Jeff King
2017-06-15 16:30             ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-15 19:34               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 21:59                 ` Adam Langley
2017-06-15 22:41                   ` brian m. carlson
2017-06-15 23:36                     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16  0:17                       ` brian m. carlson
2017-06-16  6:25                         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16 13:24                           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-16 17:38                             ` Adam Langley
2017-06-16 20:52                               ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-16 21:12                                 ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-16 21:24                                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-06-16 21:39                                     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16 20:42                             ` Jeff King
2017-06-19  9:26                               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 21:10             ` Mike Hommey
2017-06-16  4:30               ` Jeff King
2017-06-15 17:36         ` Brandon Williams
2017-06-15 19:20           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-15 19:13         ` Jonathan Nieder [this message]
2017-03-07  0:17   ` RFC v3: " Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-09 19:14     ` Shawn Pearce
2017-03-09 20:24       ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-10 19:38         ` Jeff King
2017-03-10 19:55           ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-28  4:43       ` [PATCH v4] technical doc: add a design doc for hash function transition Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-29  6:06         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-29  8:09           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-29 17:34           ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-10-02  8:25             ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-02 19:41             ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02  9:02         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-02 19:23         ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-03  5:40         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-03 13:08           ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-04  1:44         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-06  6:28     ` RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan Junio C Hamano
2017-09-08  2:40       ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-08  3:34         ` Jeff King
2017-09-11 18:59         ` Brandon Williams
2017-09-13 12:05           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 13:43             ` demerphq
2017-09-13 22:51               ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14 18:26                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 18:40                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14 22:09                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 23:30               ` Linus Torvalds
2017-09-14 18:45                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-18 12:17                   ` Gilles Van Assche
2017-09-18 22:16                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-19 16:45                       ` Gilles Van Assche
2017-09-29 13:17                         ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-29 14:54                           ` Joan Daemen
2017-09-29 22:33                             ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-30 22:02                               ` Joan Daemen
2017-10-02 14:26                                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-18 22:25                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-26 17:05                   ` Jason Cooper
2017-09-26 22:11                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-26 22:25                       ` [PATCH] technical doc: add a design doc for hash function transition Stefan Beller
2017-09-26 23:38                         ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-26 23:51                       ` RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan Jonathan Nieder
2017-10-02 14:54                         ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02 16:50                           ` Brandon Williams
2017-10-02 14:00                       ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02 17:18                         ` Linus Torvalds
2017-10-02 19:37                           ` Jeff King
2017-09-13 16:30             ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-13 21:52               ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-13 22:07                 ` Stefan Beller
2017-09-13 22:18                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14  2:13                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-14 15:23                       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 15:45                         ` demerphq
2017-09-14 22:06                           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 22:15                 ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-13 22:27                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14  2:10                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-14 12:39               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 16:36                 ` Brandon Williams
2017-09-14 18:49                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-15 20:42                   ` Philip Oakley
2017-03-05 11:02 ` RFC: " David Lang
     [not found]   ` <CA+dhYEXHbQfJ6KUB1tWS9u1MLEOJL81fTYkbxu4XO-i+379LPw@mail.gmail.com>
2017-03-06  9:43     ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 23:40   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-07  0:03     ` Mike Hommey
2017-03-06  8:43 ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 18:39   ` Jonathan Tan
2017-03-06 19:22     ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-06 19:59       ` Brandon Williams
2017-03-06 21:53       ` Junio C Hamano
2017-03-07  8:59     ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 18:43   ` Junio C Hamano
2017-03-07 18:57 ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-07 19:15   ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-08 11:20     ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-08 15:37       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-03-08 15:40       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-03-20  5:21         ` Use base32? Jason Hennessey
2017-03-20  5:58           ` Michael Steuer
2017-03-20  8:05             ` Jacob Keller
2017-03-21  3:07               ` Michael Steuer
2017-03-13  9:24 ` RFC: Another proposed hash function transition plan The Keccak Team
2017-03-13 17:48   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-13 18:34     ` ankostis
2017-03-17 11:07       ` Johannes Schindelin

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