git@vger.kernel.org mailing list mirror (one of many)
 help / Atom feed
From: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>
To: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com>
Cc: Adam Langley <agl@google.com>,
	Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>,
	Jeff King <peff@peff.net>, Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org>,
	Brandon Williams <bmwill@google.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>,
	Git Mailing List <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	Stefan Beller <sbeller@google.com>,
	Jonathan Tan <jonathantanmy@google.com>,
	Junio Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Which hash function to use, was Re: RFC: Another proposed hash function transition plan
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 00:17:38 +0000
Message-ID: <20170616001738.affg4qby7y7yahos@genre.crustytoothpaste.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CACBZZX5Z3kQHe_5TgOeuJSgzuvpQdaLo6RrgX_EvuZfdz856sA@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3810 bytes --]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 01:36:13AM +0200, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 12:41 AM, brian m. carlson
> <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net> wrote:
> > SHA-256 acceleration exists for some existing Intel platforms already.
> > However, they're not practically present on anything but servers at the
> > moment, and so I don't think the acceleration of SHA-256 is a
> > something we should consider.
> 
> Whatever next-gen hash Git ends up with is going to be in use for
> decades, so what hardware acceleration exists in consumer products
> right now is practically irrelevant, but what acceleration is likely
> to exist for the lifetime of the hash existing *is* relevant.

The life of MD5 was about 23 years (introduction to first document
collision).  SHA-1 had about 22.  Decades, yes, but just barely.  SHA-2
was introduced in 2001, and by the same estimate, we're a little over
halfway through its life.

> So I don't follow the argument that we shouldn't weigh future HW
> acceleration highly just because you can't easily buy a laptop today
> with these features.
> 
> Aside from that I think you've got this backwards, it's AMD that's
> adding SHA acceleration to their high-end Ryzen chips[1] but Intel is
> starting at the lower end this year with Goldmont which'll be in
> lower-end consumer devices[2]. If you read the github issue I linked
> to upthread[3] you can see that the cryptopp devs already tested their
> SHA accelerated code on a consumer Celeron[4] recently.
> 
> I don't think Intel has announced the SHA extensions for future Xeon
> releases, but it seems given that they're going to have it there as
> well. Have there every been x86 extensions that aren't eventually
> portable across the entire line, or that they've ended up removing
> from x86 once introduced?
> 
> In any case, I think by the time we're ready to follow-up the current
> hash refactoring efforts with actually changing the hash
> implementation many of us are likely to have laptops with these
> extensions, making this easy to test.

I think you underestimate the life of hardware and software.  I have
servers running KVM development instances that have been running since
at least 2012.  Those machines are not scheduled for replacement anytime
soon.

Whatever we deploy within the next year is going to run on existing
hardware for probably a decade, whether we want it to or not.  Most of
those machines don't have acceleration.

Furthermore, you need a reasonably modern crypto library to get hardware
acceleration.  OpenSSL has only recently gained support for it.  RHEL 7
does not currently support it, and probably never will.  That OS is
going to be around for the next 6 years.

If we're optimizing for performance, I don't want to optimize for the
latest, greatest machines.  Those machines are going to outperform
everything else either way.  I'd rather optimize for something which
performs well on the whole everywhere.  There are a lot of developers
who have older machines, for cost reasons or otherwise.

Here are some stats (cycles/byte for long messages):

                   SHA-256    BLAKE2b
Ryzen                 1.89       3.06
Knight's Landing     19.00       5.65
Cortex-A72            1.99       5.48
Cortex-A57           11.81       5.47
Cortex-A7            28.19      15.16

In other words, BLAKE2b performs well uniformly across a wide variety of
architectures even without acceleration.  I'd rather tell people that
upgrading to a new hash algorithm is a performance win either way, not
just if they have the latest hardware.
-- 
brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US
https://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only
OpenPGP: https://keybase.io/bk2204

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 868 bytes --]

  reply index

Thread overview: 112+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-03-04  1:12 Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-05  2:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-06  0:26   ` brian m. carlson
2017-03-06 18:24     ` Brandon Williams
2017-06-15 10:30       ` Which hash function to use, was " Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 11:05         ` Mike Hommey
2017-06-15 13:01           ` Jeff King
2017-06-15 16:30             ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-15 19:34               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 21:59                 ` Adam Langley
2017-06-15 22:41                   ` brian m. carlson
2017-06-15 23:36                     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16  0:17                       ` brian m. carlson [this message]
2017-06-16  6:25                         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16 13:24                           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-16 17:38                             ` Adam Langley
2017-06-16 20:52                               ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-16 21:12                                 ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-16 21:24                                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-06-16 21:39                                     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2017-06-16 20:42                             ` Jeff King
2017-06-19  9:26                               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-06-15 21:10             ` Mike Hommey
2017-06-16  4:30               ` Jeff King
2017-06-15 17:36         ` Brandon Williams
2017-06-15 19:20           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-06-15 19:13         ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-07  0:17   ` RFC v3: " Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-09 19:14     ` Shawn Pearce
2017-03-09 20:24       ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-10 19:38         ` Jeff King
2017-03-10 19:55           ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-28  4:43       ` [PATCH v4] technical doc: add a design doc for hash function transition Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-29  6:06         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-29  8:09           ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-29 17:34           ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-10-02  8:25             ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-02 19:41             ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02  9:02         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-02 19:23         ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-03  5:40         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-10-03 13:08           ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-04  1:44         ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-06  6:28     ` RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan Junio C Hamano
2017-09-08  2:40       ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-08  3:34         ` Jeff King
2017-09-11 18:59         ` Brandon Williams
2017-09-13 12:05           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 13:43             ` demerphq
2017-09-13 22:51               ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14 18:26                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 18:40                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14 22:09                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 23:30               ` Linus Torvalds
2017-09-14 18:45                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-18 12:17                   ` Gilles Van Assche
2017-09-18 22:16                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-19 16:45                       ` Gilles Van Assche
2017-09-29 13:17                         ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-29 14:54                           ` Joan Daemen
2017-09-29 22:33                             ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-30 22:02                               ` Joan Daemen
2017-10-02 14:26                                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-18 22:25                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-26 17:05                   ` Jason Cooper
2017-09-26 22:11                     ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-26 22:25                       ` [PATCH] technical doc: add a design doc for hash function transition Stefan Beller
2017-09-26 23:38                         ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-26 23:51                       ` RFC v3: Another proposed hash function transition plan Jonathan Nieder
2017-10-02 14:54                         ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02 16:50                           ` Brandon Williams
2017-10-02 14:00                       ` Jason Cooper
2017-10-02 17:18                         ` Linus Torvalds
2017-10-02 19:37                           ` Jeff King
2017-09-13 16:30             ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-13 21:52               ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-13 22:07                 ` Stefan Beller
2017-09-13 22:18                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14  2:13                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-14 15:23                       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 15:45                         ` demerphq
2017-09-14 22:06                           ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-13 22:15                 ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-13 22:27                   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-14  2:10                     ` Junio C Hamano
2017-09-14 12:39               ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-09-14 16:36                 ` Brandon Williams
2017-09-14 18:49                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-09-15 20:42                   ` Philip Oakley
2017-03-05 11:02 ` RFC: " David Lang
     [not found]   ` <CA+dhYEXHbQfJ6KUB1tWS9u1MLEOJL81fTYkbxu4XO-i+379LPw@mail.gmail.com>
2017-03-06  9:43     ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 23:40   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-07  0:03     ` Mike Hommey
2017-03-06  8:43 ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 18:39   ` Jonathan Tan
2017-03-06 19:22     ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-06 19:59       ` Brandon Williams
2017-03-06 21:53       ` Junio C Hamano
2017-03-07  8:59     ` Jeff King
2017-03-06 18:43   ` Junio C Hamano
2017-03-07 18:57 ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-07 19:15   ` Linus Torvalds
2017-03-08 11:20     ` Ian Jackson
2017-03-08 15:37       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-03-08 15:40       ` Johannes Schindelin
2017-03-20  5:21         ` Use base32? Jason Hennessey
2017-03-20  5:58           ` Michael Steuer
2017-03-20  8:05             ` Jacob Keller
2017-03-21  3:07               ` Michael Steuer
2017-03-13  9:24 ` RFC: Another proposed hash function transition plan The Keccak Team
2017-03-13 17:48   ` Jonathan Nieder
2017-03-13 18:34     ` ankostis
2017-03-17 11:07       ` Johannes Schindelin

Reply instructions:

You may reply publically to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=20170616001738.affg4qby7y7yahos@genre.crustytoothpaste.net \
    --to=sandals@crustytoothpaste.net \
    --cc=Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de \
    --cc=agl@google.com \
    --cc=avarab@gmail.com \
    --cc=bmwill@google.com \
    --cc=git@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=gitster@pobox.com \
    --cc=jonathantanmy@google.com \
    --cc=jrnieder@gmail.com \
    --cc=mh@glandium.org \
    --cc=peff@peff.net \
    --cc=sbeller@google.com \
    --cc=torvalds@linux-foundation.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

git@vger.kernel.org mailing list mirror (one of many)

Archives are clonable:
	git clone --mirror https://public-inbox.org/git
	git clone --mirror http://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/git
	git clone --mirror http://czquwvybam4bgbro.onion/git
	git clone --mirror http://hjrcffqmbrq6wope.onion/git

Newsgroups are available over NNTP:
	nntp://news.public-inbox.org/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://czquwvybam4bgbro.onion/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://hjrcffqmbrq6wope.onion/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git

 note: .onion URLs require Tor: https://www.torproject.org/
       or Tor2web: https://www.tor2web.org/

AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/ public-inbox