Quick Check on COVID Lockdowns

Quick Check on COVID Lockdowns

[andrew via libreplanet-discuss]

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Shanghai, where I live, has been locked down again.  Any of you in
lockdown?

(Personally I think Shanghai's lockdown is quite bad, I haven't written
about this in English yet, but here for your reference is a school essay
about it.  Note that since it's a school essay, I haven't fully
expressed, and it's in Chinese.)

令人惊悚的发现

又封闭管理了。这是第二次全市封闭。上一次在2020年。

Delta变体杀伤性强，传染性较强，全球肆虐，在欧洲影响特别明显，导致上万例感染，上千例死亡。若在上海市等人口密度大的城市爆发，后果不堪设想。最近
新型冠状病毒的Omicron变体全球蔓延。本来我很受到惊吓，我以为它是与Delta类似的杀伤型变种。然而，阅读相关资料后，我发现Omicron变体传染性强，杀伤
性小，与以往的流行性感冒的死亡率类似。因此有国家和地区采用以往的流感政策，即仅病人的密切接触者居家隔离，在潜伏期完成多次检测，若检测结果皆为>阴性则允许其恢复正常生活。

上海本来没什么事，只有在机场、火车站检测到的少量外地输入病例，容易隔离追踪。然而有一次正是收隔离人员的酒店管理差，导致Omicron疯狂扩散。这也使
政府发现Omicron的无症状感染者占感染者比例极大，也证明Omicron杀伤性小。

2022年3月10日，我们接到通知：上海市中小学教学活动改为线上。忽略线上教学的法律、技术问题，线上教学的效果仍然无法与线下教学相比。我当时很惊讶，
特别是在发现Omicron其实没什么大不了的后，感到奇怪。令我惊讶的是，上海市居然采取封闭管理的行政措施。所有居民必须居家，不得外出，甚至不能去最近
的商店购买食物，目的为完全歼灭新冠。

经信息查找，我发现上海的蓝领工人不少。他们的工作很多都是无法居家线上完成的。隔离或封锁意味他们失去收入的来源，购买力下降，最终导致长期的经济>问题；更重要的是，因为现在全市封锁，医院也都不接受新的病人，连救护车、抢救等基本的服务都无法访问。这使上千的脑卒中、心肌梗死病人失去生命的机>会。相比于Omicron约0.07%的死亡率（在上海合计7例死亡），这对人们影响更大，在当今人口老龄化的社会里也有更多患有慢性病的病人治疗被拖延，长期后果
严重。即使是对于生活相对稳定的家庭，不能出去锻炼身体，不能出去购买食物也是影响我们生活质量的。

在尝试通过封锁以期减少新型冠状病毒引起的死亡同时，应当考虑因为封锁等造成的相关死亡和生活质量的下降。毕竟最终目的是造福人民，不是为了证否其他>国家“与病毒共存”的标语和证明自己有消除新冠的能力。


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Re: Quick Check on COVID Lockdowns

[Yasuaki Kudo]

(disclaimer: if there is a better mailing list for this subject, someone please let us know but here we go)

In Tokyo and its surrounding metro area where I live, things are pretty much back to normal except for the voluntary (meaning not legally mandated but some supermarkets, etc make requests) mask wearing.
 
It looks like we have highly divergent approaches depending on where we are when it comes to this.   The Chinese approach sounds not so surprising given the authoritarian powers of its government 😅

In Japan, I think the primary driver was the cultural conformity pressure that, not surprisingly, extended to mask wearing and all that (not necessarily 'scientific')

-Yasu



> On Apr 10, 2022, at 16:02, andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> 
> Shanghai, where I live, has been locked down again.  Any of you in
> lockdown?
> 
> (Personally I think Shanghai's lockdown is quite bad, I haven't written
> about this in English yet, but here for your reference is a school essay
> about it.  Note that since it's a school essay, I haven't fully
> expressed, and it's in Chinese.)
> 
> 令人惊悚的发现
> 
> 又封闭管理了。这是第二次全市封闭。上一次在2020年。
> 
> Delta变体杀伤性强，传染性较强，全球肆虐，在欧洲影响特别明显，导致上万例感染，上千例死亡。若在上海市等人口密度大的城市爆发，后果不堪设想。最近
> 新型冠状病毒的Omicron变体全球蔓延。本来我很受到惊吓，我以为它是与Delta类似的杀伤型变种。然而，阅读相关资料后，我发现Omicron变体传染性强，杀伤
> 性小，与以往的流行性感冒的死亡率类似。因此有国家和地区采用以往的流感政策，即仅病人的密切接触者居家隔离，在潜伏期完成多次检测，若检测结果皆为>阴性则允许其恢复正常生活。
> 
> 上海本来没什么事，只有在机场、火车站检测到的少量外地输入病例，容易隔离追踪。然而有一次正是收隔离人员的酒店管理差，导致Omicron疯狂扩散。这也使
> 政府发现Omicron的无症状感染者占感染者比例极大，也证明Omicron杀伤性小。
> 
> 2022年3月10日，我们接到通知：上海市中小学教学活动改为线上。忽略线上教学的法律、技术问题，线上教学的效果仍然无法与线下教学相比。我当时很惊讶，
> 特别是在发现Omicron其实没什么大不了的后，感到奇怪。令我惊讶的是，上海市居然采取封闭管理的行政措施。所有居民必须居家，不得外出，甚至不能去最近
> 的商店购买食物，目的为完全歼灭新冠。
> 
> 经信息查找，我发现上海的蓝领工人不少。他们的工作很多都是无法居家线上完成的。隔离或封锁意味他们失去收入的来源，购买力下降，最终导致长期的经济>问题；更重要的是，因为现在全市封锁，医院也都不接受新的病人，连救护车、抢救等基本的服务都无法访问。这使上千的脑卒中、心肌梗死病人失去生命的机>会。相比于Omicron约0.07%的死亡率（在上海合计7例死亡），这对人们影响更大，在当今人口老龄化的社会里也有更多患有慢性病的病人治疗被拖延，长期后果
> 严重。即使是对于生活相对稳定的家庭，不能出去锻炼身体，不能出去购买食物也是影响我们生活质量的。
> 
> 在尝试通过封锁以期减少新型冠状病毒引起的死亡同时，应当考虑因为封锁等造成的相关死亡和生活质量的下降。毕竟最终目的是造福人民，不是为了证否其他>国家“与病毒共存”的标语和证明自己有消除新冠的能力。
> 
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Re: Quick Check on COVID Lockdowns

[Jean Louis]

* andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04-11 22:41]:
> Shanghai, where I live, has been locked down again.  Any of you in
> lockdown?

And how is this related to Libreplanet?


Jean

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Re: Quick Check on COVID Lockdowns

[Yasuaki Kudo]

If there isn't one already, maybe what it means is we need a sister mailing list (or anything else) for peripheral topics or general community building at large 😄   I see this often (and this is not just for LibrePlanet) where natural human interactions are blocked due to the intensional focus (sorry not sure whether it should be spelled with a t or s 😅) of the group, but it is a loss because they are related and support each other (it's just that intensional side is more visible)  -Yasu

> On Apr 13, 2022, at 23:04, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> * andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04-11 22:41]:
>> Shanghai, where I live, has been locked down again.  Any of you in
>> lockdown?
> 
> And how is this related to Libreplanet?
> 
> 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: Quick Check on COVID Lockdowns

[Yuchen Pei]

On Thu 2022-04-14 06:09:31 +0900, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:

> If there isn't one already, maybe what it means is we need a sister
> mailing list (or anything else) for peripheral topics or general
> community building at large 😄 I see this often (and this is not just
> for LibrePlanet) where natural human interactions are blocked due to
> the intensional focus (sorry not sure whether it should be spelled
> with a t or s 😅) of the group, but it is a loss because they are
> related and support each other (it's just that intensional side is
> more visible) -Yasu

+1, something like "libreplanet-misc"?

>
>> On Apr 13, 2022, at 23:04, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>> 
>> * andrew via libreplanet-discuss
>> <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04-11 22:41]:
>>> Shanghai, where I live, has been locked down again.  Any of you in
>>> lockdown?
>> 
>> And how is this related to Libreplanet?
>> 
>> 
>> Jean
>> 
>> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>> 
>> In support of Richard M. Stallman
>> https://stallmansupport.org/
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss


Best,
Yuchen

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[andrew via libreplanet-discuss]

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The reason I posted this here are:

(1) During the lockdown, we are obligated to use the following nonfree
    software:

    1. Tencent Meetings for school;
    2. 随申办 for getting a QR code as a token for mandated COVID tests;
       Simply swiping a second-generation citizen ID cart is
       "deprecated" for some reason;
    3. Nonfree online shopping platforms, mainly used by my family,
       because that's the only way people get food.

(2) Even if we ignore the fact that this is related to free software
    (which I should have mentioned earlier):

    1. I see social issues like this an important extension of the ideas
       of the movement---our goal is not free software, it's a free
       society, while free software is indeed one of the first steps
       (paraphrasing RMS);
    2. Sorry, I'm just a bit raged at the policy, and thinking it's
       freedom related I kinda need somewhere for it to go (not a good
       reason, bruh);
    3. The lockdowns here depict authoritarianism and DISRESPECT for
       individuality, it's kind-of like how people are forced to use
       Zoom and WhatsApp and GitHub because everyone is on it (also why
       federated and distributed things like GNUnet are cool).

Either way, I do believe a -misc list makes sense.  Free Software is our
first step to a free society, but we needn't conquer all of computing
before peeking at other parts of problems.  One might have a Librebooted
RISC-V libre-design libre-FGPA computer, which is a good thing, but once
they walk out there are cameras everywhere (or they can't walk out at
all) and the government is constantly shouting into their ears.  Anyways
I've made my point on this; I do have a tiny list for those purposes but
they're, well, tiny.

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Jean Louis]

* andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04-14 18:30]:
> The reason I posted this here are:
> 
> (1) During the lockdown, we are obligated to use the following nonfree
>     software:

How are you obligated? Which law, rule or policy is asking you that?

Please provide references if there are any WWW references, so that we
may complain to those organizations.

>     1. Tencent Meetings for school;
>     2. 随申办 for getting a QR code as a token for mandated COVID tests;
>        Simply swiping a second-generation citizen ID cart is
>        "deprecated" for some reason;

I wish I could understand, but QR code is not a software. Is there
software that is obligated to be installed?

>     3. Nonfree online shopping platforms, mainly used by my family,
>        because that's the only way people get food.

Who is obligating you to use it? If it is "online" does that mean it
is website with non-free Javascript?

>     1. I see social issues like this an important extension of the ideas
>        of the movement---our goal is not free software, it's a free
>        society, while free software is indeed one of the first steps
>        (paraphrasing RMS);

Free society is not same as Libreplanet. I don't think it is good to
discuss what "free" means for this or that party, as we are global, we
are people from various places. What may mean "free society" for one
person may be occupation for other.

>     2. Sorry, I'm just a bit raged at the policy, and thinking it's
>        freedom related I kinda need somewhere for it to go (not a good
>        reason, bruh);

Libreplanet is not generally freedom related, it is about free
software and freedom in computing. If we discuss topics that are
generally freedom related we deviate into a lot of politics and the
tendency may disperse people on this mailing list who are otherwise
interested in free software, and not general freedom topics.

We better keep it on topic related to free software.

>     3. The lockdowns here depict authoritarianism and DISRESPECT for
>        individuality,

Sure.

> it's kind-of like how people are forced to use Zoom and WhatsApp and
> GitHub because everyone is on it (also why federated and distributed
> things like GNUnet are cool).

There is no direct connection between lockdowns and proprietary
software.

If you think you are forced, then complain to those who force you, and
please if possible provide references that I give you suggestion how
to complain.

For example if organization is forcing you to use Zoom, then I would
like to ask organization if they would, due to force, also provide
all the hardware for the software. I would give them reasons why it is
not good, such as privacy abuses, backdoors, proprietary software, etc.

> Either way, I do believe a -misc list makes sense.

And I don't, as FSF has free software as purpose, and not general
politics as purpose. 

You are free to make your own mailing list. But using people on
Libreplanet mailing list for whatever other politics is somehow not
quite fair. 

I don't mind if FSF makes such decisions, I am stating my opinion. FSF
is non-profit and has specific purposes that must fit into the law,
into the IRS tax-free status and social benefits.

Every person is free to pay few dollars and make a mailing list that
is not related to free software.

> Free Software is our first step to a free society,

I don't know what you mean with "free society". Can you define it?

Jean

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[andrew via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 22/04/15 12:30AM, Jean Louis wrote:
> * andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04-14 18:30]:
> > The reason I posted this here are:
> > 
> > (1) During the lockdown, we are obligated to use the following nonfree
> >     software:
> 
> How are you obligated? Which law, rule or policy is asking you that?

By policy.

> Please provide references if there are any WWW references, so that we
> may complain to those organizations.

That's require me to use the nonfree part of the Web, I'm currently not
on my dirty system, I'll give them later

> >     1. Tencent Meetings for school;
> >     2. 随申办 for getting a QR code as a token for mandated COVID tests;
> >        Simply swiping a second-generation citizen ID cart is
> >        "deprecated" for some reason;
> 
> I wish I could understand, but QR code is not a software. Is there
> software that is obligated to be installed?

They require 随申办 for generating the said QR code, a nonfree phone
app.

> >     3. Nonfree online shopping platforms, mainly used by my family,
> >        because that's the only way people get food.
> 
> Who is obligating you to use it? If it is "online" does that mean it
> is website with non-free Javascript?

It's a cellular phone app; we're not obligated to use it, but in
practice not using it = starve.

> >     1. I see social issues like this an important extension of the ideas
> >        of the movement---our goal is not free software, it's a free
> >        society, while free software is indeed one of the first steps
> >        (paraphrasing RMS);
> 
> Free society is not same as Libreplanet. I don't think it is good to
> discuss what "free" means for this or that party, as we are global, we
> are people from various places. What may mean "free society" for one
> person may be occupation for other.

Understood.

> >     2. Sorry, I'm just a bit raged at the policy, and thinking it's
> >        freedom related I kinda need somewhere for it to go (not a good
> >        reason, bruh);
> 
> Libreplanet is not generally freedom related, it is about free
> software and freedom in computing. If we discuss topics that are
> generally freedom related we deviate into a lot of politics and the
> tendency may disperse people on this mailing list who are otherwise
> interested in free software, and not general freedom topics.
> 
> We better keep it on topic related to free software.

> >     3. The lockdowns here depict authoritarianism and DISRESPECT for
> >        individuality,
> 
> Sure.
> 
> > it's kind-of like how people are forced to use Zoom and WhatsApp and
> > GitHub because everyone is on it (also why federated and distributed
> > things like GNUnet are cool).
> 
> There is no direct connection between lockdowns and proprietary
> software.
> 
> If you think you are forced, then complain to those who force you, and
> please if possible provide references that I give you suggestion how
> to complain.

Complained multiple times, gov doesn't reply, teachers call me ..
basically a freetard, lol

> For example if organization is forcing you to use Zoom, then I would
> like to ask organization if they would, due to force, also provide
> all the hardware for the software. I would give them reasons why it is
> not good, such as privacy abuses, backdoors, proprietary software, etc.

(My email in Oct 2021 explains this a bit)

> > Either way, I do believe a -misc list makes sense.
> 
> And I don't, as FSF has free software as purpose, and not general
> politics as purpose. 
> 
> You are free to make your own mailing list. But using people on
> Libreplanet mailing list for whatever other politics is somehow not
> quite fair. 
> 
> I don't mind if FSF makes such decisions, I am stating my opinion. FSF
> is non-profit and has specific purposes that must fit into the law,
> into the IRS tax-free status and social benefits.
> 
> Every person is free to pay few dollars and make a mailing list that
> is not related to free software.

Understood.

> > Free Software is our first step to a free society,
> 
> I don't know what you mean with "free society". Can you define it?
Well, RMS said that; as I understand it means individuality and not
having freaking authoritarianism.

-a

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Jean Louis]

* andrew <andrew@andrewyu.org> [2022-04-15 04:01]:
> On 22/04/15 12:30AM, Jean Louis wrote:
> > * andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04-14 18:30]:
> > > The reason I posted this here are:
> > > 
> > > (1) During the lockdown, we are obligated to use the following nonfree
> > >     software:
> > 
> > How are you obligated? Which law, rule or policy is asking you that?
> 
> By policy.

Who issued the policy? By which authority someone obligated you?


-- 
Jean

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[andrew via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 22/04/15 10:56PM, Jean Louis wrote:
> Who issued the policy? By which authority someone obligated you?

Shanghai Government, the government.

The order was issued by the executive branch of the government, and it's
enforced by the police.  The police published the specifics of the
rules:

为严格落实本市各项疫情防控措施，尽早恢复正常生产生活和社会秩序，根据《突发事件应对法》《传染病防治法》《人民警察法》《治安管理处罚法》《道路交通安全法》等法律法规规定，按照市疫情防控工作领导小组的统一部署，现就进一步加强本市疫情防控期间社会面秩序管理有关事项通告如下：
(Premitive stuff, and talking about which laws make this emergency
policy legal and constitutional.)

一、任何单位和个人都应当严格遵守各项法律法规和本市疫情防控规定，按照分区分类差异化防疫管理要求，严格落实相关管控措施。
(Everyone must follow these rules.)

二、禁止机动车上道路行驶，因疫情防控、生活保障、城市运行、应急处置、紧急就医等需要的除外。交通管制措施根据疫情防控形势动态调整。
(No cars except for crucial item delivery (such as food) and emergency
vehicles.)

There are three categories:
(0) Complete lockdown;
(1) Managed;
(2) Be careful.

三、严禁实施下列行为：
(Disallowed:)

（一）封控区内人员在封闭管理期间擅自出户；
(Those in cat 0 leaving their home during the lockdown period;)

（二）封控区和管控区内人员在居家健康监测期间，擅自离开居民小区/自然村（单位、场所），或者进行聚集活动；
(Those in cat 0 and 1 leaving their residential quarters or village or
institution, or mass gathering, during the self-protection period;)

（三）防范区内人员擅自进入封控区、管控区，或者防范区场所未合理控制人员数量；
(Those in cat 2 tresspassing into cat 0 and 1, or mass gatherings;)

（四）违反隔离管控规定，故意破坏门磁、封条擅自出入；
(Damaging door systems to evade lockdown barriars;)

（五）拒绝接受本市防疫部门、医疗机构组织的核酸检测、抗原检测；
(Refusing to test for COVID;)

（六）新冠病毒阳性感染者拒绝按规定接受隔离治疗，密切接触者等人员拒绝按规定在指定场所进行医学观察或健康监测；
(Refusing to be quarentined;)

（七）接受隔离治疗或者医学观察人员，符合出院或者解除医学观察标准，拒绝出院或者解除医学观察；
(Refusing to leave the hospital after being un-quarentined;)

（八）在医院、方舱、隔离点等救治隔离场所，或者居住小区、单位等其他场所，辱骂、殴打医务人员、社区工作者、志愿者等防疫工作人员，或者起哄闹事，扰乱公共秩序；
(Cursing or using violence at medical staff, social workers, volunteers
and other persons, or severely impacting social order in other ways;)

（九）编造、故意传播涉疫虚假信息，伪造、变造或者买卖、使用伪造、变造的核酸检测证明、道路通行证等证明文件；
(Intentionally spreading lies, or using faked COVID test proofs, pass
proofs, etc.;)

（十）其他违反法律法规规定或者本市防疫措施的行为。
(Other illegal actions.)

四、违反本通告规定的，公安机关将严格依法处理；构成违反治安管理行为的，依法给予治安管理处罚；构成犯罪的，依法追究刑事责任。
(Violating this policy would cause the police to take related action;
violating public security law might get you into trouble with the police
and you'd have to go to the station, violating criminal law would put
you in court.)

本通告自发布之日起施行。请社会各界和广大市民群众全力守“沪”、同心抗疫，维护好疫情防控期间的社会秩序，为早日取得疫情防控胜利共同努力。
(random stuff)

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Jean Louis]

* andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04-16 13:49]:
> On 22/04/15 10:56PM, Jean Louis wrote:
> > Who issued the policy? By which authority someone obligated you?
> 
> Shanghai Government, the government.
> 
> The order was issued by the executive branch of the government, and it's
> enforced by the police.  The police published the specifics of the
> rules:

Yes, that is 21st century surveillance without end.

Is it possible to be in China without mobile phone?

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re:Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Whistler]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4505 bytes --]

Here (in Beijing) we have been required to scan a QR code with a non-free covid 'contact tracing' app if we need to enter _anywhere_ since 2020, including the residence block of my own home.
I don't think 'complaining' to any organizations would solve the issue, as it's a much bigger issue than free software but free software is an important factor.


btw, I'd say: check your privilege, as you are obviously lucky enough NOT affected by these issues which affects many things (not limited to software freedom).


At 2022-04-15 05:30:04, "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>* andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04-14 18:30]:
>> The reason I posted this here are:
>> 
>> (1) During the lockdown, we are obligated to use the following nonfree
>>     software:
>
>How are you obligated? Which law, rule or policy is asking you that?
>
>Please provide references if there are any WWW references, so that we
>may complain to those organizations.
>
>>     1. Tencent Meetings for school;
>>     2. 随申办 for getting a QR code as a token for mandated COVID tests;
>>        Simply swiping a second-generation citizen ID cart is
>>        "deprecated" for some reason;
>
>I wish I could understand, but QR code is not a software. Is there
>software that is obligated to be installed?
>
>>     3. Nonfree online shopping platforms, mainly used by my family,
>>        because that's the only way people get food.
>
>Who is obligating you to use it? If it is "online" does that mean it
>is website with non-free Javascript?
>
>>     1. I see social issues like this an important extension of the ideas
>>        of the movement---our goal is not free software, it's a free
>>        society, while free software is indeed one of the first steps
>>        (paraphrasing RMS);
>
>Free society is not same as Libreplanet. I don't think it is good to
>discuss what "free" means for this or that party, as we are global, we
>are people from various places. What may mean "free society" for one
>person may be occupation for other.
>
>>     2. Sorry, I'm just a bit raged at the policy, and thinking it's
>>        freedom related I kinda need somewhere for it to go (not a good
>>        reason, bruh);
>
>Libreplanet is not generally freedom related, it is about free
>software and freedom in computing. If we discuss topics that are
>generally freedom related we deviate into a lot of politics and the
>tendency may disperse people on this mailing list who are otherwise
>interested in free software, and not general freedom topics.
>
>We better keep it on topic related to free software.
>
>>     3. The lockdowns here depict authoritarianism and DISRESPECT for
>>        individuality,
>
>Sure.
>
>> it's kind-of like how people are forced to use Zoom and WhatsApp and
>> GitHub because everyone is on it (also why federated and distributed
>> things like GNUnet are cool).
>
>There is no direct connection between lockdowns and proprietary
>software.
>
>If you think you are forced, then complain to those who force you, and
>please if possible provide references that I give you suggestion how
>to complain.
>
>For example if organization is forcing you to use Zoom, then I would
>like to ask organization if they would, due to force, also provide
>all the hardware for the software. I would give them reasons why it is
>not good, such as privacy abuses, backdoors, proprietary software, etc.
>
>> Either way, I do believe a -misc list makes sense.
>
>And I don't, as FSF has free software as purpose, and not general
>politics as purpose. 
>
>You are free to make your own mailing list. But using people on
>Libreplanet mailing list for whatever other politics is somehow not
>quite fair. 
>
>I don't mind if FSF makes such decisions, I am stating my opinion. FSF
>is non-profit and has specific purposes that must fit into the law,
>into the IRS tax-free status and social benefits.
>
>Every person is free to pay few dollars and make a mailing list that
>is not related to free software.
>
>> Free Software is our first step to a free society,
>
>I don't know what you mean with "free society". Can you define it?
>
>Jean
>
>Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
>In support of Richard M. Stallman
>https://stallmansupport.org/
>
>_______________________________________________
>libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 4520 bytes --]

   Here (in Beijing) we have been required to scan a QR code with a
   non-free covid 'contact tracing' app if we need to enter _anywhere_
   since 2020, including the residence block of my own home.
   I don't think 'complaining' to any organizations would solve the issue,
   as it's a much bigger issue than free software but free software is an
   important factor.
   btw, I'd say: check your privilege, as you are obviously lucky enough
   NOT affected by these issues which affects many things (not limited to
   software freedom).
At 2022-04-15 05:30:04, "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>* andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04
-14 18:30]:
>> The reason I posted this here are:
>>
>> (1) During the lockdown, we are obligated to use the following nonfree
>>     software:
>
>How are you obligated? Which law, rule or policy is asking you that?
>
>Please provide references if there are any WWW references, so that we
>may complain to those organizations.
>
>>     1. Tencent Meetings for school;
>>     2.  for getting a QR code as a token for mandated COVID tests;
>>        Simply swiping a second-generation citizen ID cart is
>>        "deprecated" for some reason;
>
>I wish I could understand, but QR code is not a software. Is there
>software that is obligated to be installed?
>
>>     3. Nonfree online shopping platforms, mainly used by my family,
>>        because that's the only way people get food.
>
>Who is obligating you to use it? If it is "online" does that mean it
>is website with non-free Javascript?
>
>>     1. I see social issues like this an important extension of the ideas
>>        of the movement---our goal is not free software, it's a free
>>        society, while free software is indeed one of the first steps
>>        (paraphrasing RMS);
>
>Free society is not same as Libreplanet. I don't think it is good to
>discuss what "free" means for this or that party, as we are global, we
>are people from various places. What may mean "free society" for one
>person may be occupation for other.
>
>>     2. Sorry, I'm just a bit raged at the policy, and thinking it's
>>        freedom related I kinda need somewhere for it to go (not a good
>>        reason, bruh);
>
>Libreplanet is not generally freedom related, it is about free
>software and freedom in computing. If we discuss topics that are
>generally freedom related we deviate into a lot of politics and the
>tendency may disperse people on this mailing list who are otherwise
>interested in free software, and not general freedom topics.
>
>We better keep it on topic related to free software.
>
>>     3. The lockdowns here depict authoritarianism and DISRESPECT for
>>        individuality,
>
>Sure.
>
>> it's kind-of like how people are forced to use Zoom and WhatsApp and
>> GitHub because everyone is on it (also why federated and distributed
>> things like GNUnet are cool).
>
>There is no direct connection between lockdowns and proprietary
>software.
>
>If you think you are forced, then complain to those who force you, and
>please if possible provide references that I give you suggestion how
>to complain.
>
>For example if organization is forcing you to use Zoom, then I would
>like to ask organization if they would, due to force, also provide
>all the hardware for the software. I would give them reasons why it is
>not good, such as privacy abuses, backdoors, proprietary software, etc.
>
>> Either way, I do believe a -misc list makes sense.
>
>And I don't, as FSF has free software as purpose, and not general
>politics as purpose.
>
>You are free to make your own mailing list. But using people on
>Libreplanet mailing list for whatever other politics is somehow not
>quite fair.
>
>I don't mind if FSF makes such decisions, I am stating my opinion. FSF
>is non-profit and has specific purposes that must fit into the law,
>into the IRS tax-free status and social benefits.
>
>Every person is free to pay few dollars and make a mailing list that
>is not related to free software.
>
>> Free Software is our first step to a free society,
>
>I don't know what you mean with "free society". Can you define it?
>
>Jean
>
>Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
>In support of Richard M. Stallman
>https://stallmansupport.org/
>
>_______________________________________________
>libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re:Re:Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Whistler]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4837 bytes --]

I also don't think this is totally unrelated to free software, or asking you/FSF to do anything.  Just a (random) discussion on a problem which exists in the world and has negative impact on adoption of free software which happens not to be an issue for you.

At 2022-04-18 11:25:17, "Whistler" <whistler_wmz@163.com> wrote:

Here (in Beijing) we have been required to scan a QR code with a non-free covid 'contact tracing' app if we need to enter _anywhere_ since 2020, including the residence block of my own home.
I don't think 'complaining' to any organizations would solve the issue, as it's a much bigger issue than free software but free software is an important factor.


btw, I'd say: check your privilege, as you are obviously lucky enough NOT affected by these issues which affects many things (not limited to software freedom).


At 2022-04-15 05:30:04, "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>* andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04-14 18:30]:
>> The reason I posted this here are:
>> 
>> (1) During the lockdown, we are obligated to use the following nonfree
>>     software:
>
>How are you obligated? Which law, rule or policy is asking you that?
>
>Please provide references if there are any WWW references, so that we
>may complain to those organizations.
>
>>     1. Tencent Meetings for school;
>>     2. 随申办 for getting a QR code as a token for mandated COVID tests;
>>        Simply swiping a second-generation citizen ID cart is
>>        "deprecated" for some reason;
>
>I wish I could understand, but QR code is not a software. Is there
>software that is obligated to be installed?
>
>>     3. Nonfree online shopping platforms, mainly used by my family,
>>        because that's the only way people get food.
>
>Who is obligating you to use it? If it is "online" does that mean it
>is website with non-free Javascript?
>
>>     1. I see social issues like this an important extension of the ideas
>>        of the movement---our goal is not free software, it's a free
>>        society, while free software is indeed one of the first steps
>>        (paraphrasing RMS);
>
>Free society is not same as Libreplanet. I don't think it is good to
>discuss what "free" means for this or that party, as we are global, we
>are people from various places. What may mean "free society" for one
>person may be occupation for other.
>
>>     2. Sorry, I'm just a bit raged at the policy, and thinking it's
>>        freedom related I kinda need somewhere for it to go (not a good
>>        reason, bruh);
>
>Libreplanet is not generally freedom related, it is about free
>software and freedom in computing. If we discuss topics that are
>generally freedom related we deviate into a lot of politics and the
>tendency may disperse people on this mailing list who are otherwise
>interested in free software, and not general freedom topics.
>
>We better keep it on topic related to free software.
>
>>     3. The lockdowns here depict authoritarianism and DISRESPECT for
>>        individuality,
>
>Sure.
>
>> it's kind-of like how people are forced to use Zoom and WhatsApp and
>> GitHub because everyone is on it (also why federated and distributed
>> things like GNUnet are cool).
>
>There is no direct connection between lockdowns and proprietary
>software.
>
>If you think you are forced, then complain to those who force you, and
>please if possible provide references that I give you suggestion how
>to complain.
>
>For example if organization is forcing you to use Zoom, then I would
>like to ask organization if they would, due to force, also provide
>all the hardware for the software. I would give them reasons why it is
>not good, such as privacy abuses, backdoors, proprietary software, etc.
>
>> Either way, I do believe a -misc list makes sense.
>
>And I don't, as FSF has free software as purpose, and not general
>politics as purpose. 
>
>You are free to make your own mailing list. But using people on
>Libreplanet mailing list for whatever other politics is somehow not
>quite fair. 
>
>I don't mind if FSF makes such decisions, I am stating my opinion. FSF
>is non-profit and has specific purposes that must fit into the law,
>into the IRS tax-free status and social benefits.
>
>Every person is free to pay few dollars and make a mailing list that
>is not related to free software.
>
>> Free Software is our first step to a free society,
>
>I don't know what you mean with "free society". Can you define it?
>
>Jean
>
>Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
>In support of Richard M. Stallman
>https://stallmansupport.org/
>
>_______________________________________________
>libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss





 

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 4861 bytes --]

   I also don't think this is totally unrelated to free software, or
   asking you/FSF to do anything.  Just a (random) discussion on a problem
   which exists in the world and has negative impact on adoption of free
   software which happens not to be an issue for you.

   At 2022-04-18 11:25:17, "Whistler" <whistler_wmz@163.com> wrote:

   Here (in Beijing) we have been required to scan a QR code with a
   non-free covid 'contact tracing' app if we need to enter _anywhere_
   since 2020, including the residence block of my own home.
   I don't think 'complaining' to any organizations would solve the issue,
   as it's a much bigger issue than free software but free software is an
   important factor.
   btw, I'd say: check your privilege, as you are obviously lucky enough
   NOT affected by these issues which affects many things (not limited to
   software freedom).
At 2022-04-15 05:30:04, "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>* andrew via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2022-04
-14 18:30]:
>> The reason I posted this here are:
>>
>> (1) During the lockdown, we are obligated to use the following nonfree
>>     software:
>
>How are you obligated? Which law, rule or policy is asking you that?
>
>Please provide references if there are any WWW references, so that we
>may complain to those organizations.
>
>>     1. Tencent Meetings for school;
>>     2.  for getting a QR code as a token for mandated COVID tests;
>>        Simply swiping a second-generation citizen ID cart is
>>        "deprecated" for some reason;
>
>I wish I could understand, but QR code is not a software. Is there
>software that is obligated to be installed?
>
>>     3. Nonfree online shopping platforms, mainly used by my family,
>>        because that's the only way people get food.
>
>Who is obligating you to use it? If it is "online" does that mean it
>is website with non-free Javascript?
>
>>     1. I see social issues like this an important extension of the ideas
>>        of the movement---our goal is not free software, it's a free
>>        society, while free software is indeed one of the first steps
>>        (paraphrasing RMS);
>
>Free society is not same as Libreplanet. I don't think it is good to
>discuss what "free" means for this or that party, as we are global, we
>are people from various places. What may mean "free society" for one
>person may be occupation for other.
>
>>     2. Sorry, I'm just a bit raged at the policy, and thinking it's
>>        freedom related I kinda need somewhere for it to go (not a good
>>        reason, bruh);
>
>Libreplanet is not generally freedom related, it is about free
>software and freedom in computing. If we discuss topics that are
>generally freedom related we deviate into a lot of politics and the
>tendency may disperse people on this mailing list who are otherwise
>interested in free software, and not general freedom topics.
>
>We better keep it on topic related to free software.
>
>>     3. The lockdowns here depict authoritarianism and DISRESPECT for
>>        individuality,
>
>Sure.
>
>> it's kind-of like how people are forced to use Zoom and WhatsApp and
>> GitHub because everyone is on it (also why federated and distributed
>> things like GNUnet are cool).
>
>There is no direct connection between lockdowns and proprietary
>software.
>
>If you think you are forced, then complain to those who force you, and
>please if possible provide references that I give you suggestion how
>to complain.
>
>For example if organization is forcing you to use Zoom, then I would
>like to ask organization if they would, due to force, also provide
>all the hardware for the software. I would give them reasons why it is
>not good, such as privacy abuses, backdoors, proprietary software, etc.
>
>> Either way, I do believe a -misc list makes sense.
>
>And I don't, as FSF has free software as purpose, and not general
>politics as purpose.
>
>You are free to make your own mailing list. But using people on
>Libreplanet mailing list for whatever other politics is somehow not
>quite fair.
>
>I don't mind if FSF makes such decisions, I am stating my opinion. FSF
>is non-profit and has specific purposes that must fit into the law,
>into the IRS tax-free status and social benefits.
>
>Every person is free to pay few dollars and make a mailing list that
>is not related to free software.
>
>> Free Software is our first step to a free society,
>
>I don't know what you mean with "free society". Can you define it?
>
>Jean
>
>Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
>In support of Richard M. Stallman
>https://stallmansupport.org/
>
>_______________________________________________
>libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: Re:Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Jean Louis]

* Whistler <whistler_wmz@163.com> [2022-04-18 07:01]:
> I also don't think this is totally unrelated to free software, or
> asking you/FSF to do anything.

After the explanation it is totally related, as people are forced to
use proprietary software. And implies that people are forced to use
mobile phones, or otherwise they would have difficulties in survival.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Jean Louis]

* Whistler <whistler_wmz@163.com> [2022-04-18 06:26]:
> Here (in Beijing) we have been required to scan a QR code with a
> non-free covid 'contact tracing' app if we need to enter _anywhere_
> since 2020, including the residence block of my own home.

> I don't think 'complaining' to any organizations would solve the
> issue, as it's a much bigger issue than free software but free
> software is an important factor.

Does that mean that person is not allowed to be in China without
having mobile phone?

Does it mean one would basically starve and not get access to any
resources without having mobile phone?

I would say that in that case, to avoid surveillance, one could or
should, purchase one smart phone dedicated to that one specific
application as to protect oneself and data on the phone from
surveillance and abuse of information. The phone would be kept all
time off until the checkpoint, then at checkpoint turned on, to pass
it. Then turn it off after the checkpoint.

> btw, I'd say: check your privilege, as you are obviously lucky
> enough NOT affected by these issues which affects many things (not
> limited to software freedom).

I cannot understand "check your privilege". One person's situation
does not make it a privilege for other person.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[andrew via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 22/04/18 09:32AM, Jean Louis wrote:
> * Whistler <whistler_wmz@163.com> [2022-04-18 06:26]:
> > Here (in Beijing) we have been required to scan a QR code with a
> > non-free covid 'contact tracing' app if we need to enter _anywhere_
> > since 2020, including the residence block of my own home.
> >
> > I don't think 'complaining' to any organizations would solve the
> > issue, as it's a much bigger issue than free software but free
> > software is an important factor.

> Does that mean that person is not allowed to be in China without
> having mobile phone?

No, but it does mean that perse won't be able to go anywhere.

> Does it mean one would basically starve and not get access to any
> resources without having mobile phone?

In large cities, during lockdowns, the government sends food to people,
but that's quite minimal.  Most of what my family eats is still
retreived through online shopping, the only way possible.  And all those
* shopping platforms require (1) a mobile phone and (2) nonfree
JavaScript.

> I would say that in that case, to avoid surveillance, one could or
> should, purchase one smart phone dedicated to that one specific
> application as to protect oneself and data on the phone from
> surveillance and abuse of information. The phone would be kept all
> time off until the checkpoint, then at checkpoint turned on, to pass

That's what I do when I'm alone.  When I'm with my parents, since I'm
not adult yet, I can get a pass by having my parents pass.

> > btw, I'd say: check your privilege, as you are obviously lucky
> > enough NOT affected by these issues which affects many things (not
> > limited to software freedom).

> I cannot understand "check your privilege". One person's situation
> does not make it a privilege for other person.

I'd say China is the exception rather than the norm here.

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Jean Louis]

* andrew <andrew@andrewyu.org> [2022-04-18 09:40]:
> In large cities, during lockdowns, the government sends food to people,
> but that's quite minimal.  Most of what my family eats is still
> retreived through online shopping, the only way possible.  And all those
> * shopping platforms require (1) a mobile phone and (2) nonfree
> JavaScript.

That is sad.

Then there is one option to keep persisting on free software and
users' freedom in computing by promoting:

The JavaScript Trap - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html

and helping people understand, as only when there is number of people
with awareness changes will take place.

I am sure in China there are human rights defined in laws, and one
shall find which apply to free software and then put focus on such
laws and prevention of human rights abuses by usage of proprietary
software.

For example in some countries one may argue WHY did country allow only
specific provider to be accepted and provide free software? 

One could also find bugs, backdoors or other issues in such software
and block it for that reason by complaining to authorities, and in
same time provide replacement.

One could make free software and provide replacement to authorities
and explain why.


-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[andrew via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 22/04/18 10:30AM, Jean Louis wrote:
> * andrew <andrew@andrewyu.org> [2022-04-18 09:40]:
> > In large cities, during lockdowns, the government sends food to people,
> > but that's quite minimal.  Most of what my family eats is still
> > retreived through online shopping, the only way possible.  And all those
> > * shopping platforms require (1) a mobile phone and (2) nonfree
> > JavaScript.
> 
> That is sad.
> 
> Then there is one option to keep persisting on free software and
> users' freedom in computing by promoting:
> The JavaScript Trap - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html
> and helping people understand, as only when there is number of people
> with awareness changes will take place.

My problem is that when I say "please contact me by email because I
don't wanna use WeChat", people go like "nope".  Frustrating.

(This is related to the thread about RFD1, I'll elaborate in an updated
RFD because when I sit down and read it a few times I find it RFD1
lacking and confusing.

People in my grade be like:

  1. Why do you have a Website?  Why not "just" use Weibo (similar to
     twitter blah blah)

  2. Why do you use "ancient" technology such as RFC822 Email, IRC and
     XMPP, when we have cool "good" stuff that everyone uses like
     WeChat?

  3. What is ".org"?  All Websites I've seen end with ".com" or
     ".edu.cn".

  4. Why do you care about "freedom"?  Why do you care about privacy if
     you have nothing to hide?  Why is freedom more important than
     convenience?

Red pill provided, not taken.

(There's even a guy in my class who goes like:  Whenever I draw a GNU
head or a OpenBSD Puffy in art homework or something, he puts Windows 10
logos all the place and talks about why free software is bad.  He's the
exception (other people are genuinely asking questions) and is probably
a troll, causes a lot of damage to what I do.)

> I am sure in China there are human rights defined in laws, and one
> shall find which apply to free software and then put focus on such
> laws and prevention of human rights abuses by usage of proprietary
> software.

Part of what I do :)  I have a bunch of unpublished ones (written in
Chinese) that I might release in a batch.

> For example in some countries one may argue WHY did country allow only
> specific provider to be accepted and provide free software? 

I do not undestand how "specific provider"s could be allowed only and
provide free software, can you elaborate?

> One could also find bugs, backdoors or other issues in such software
> and block it for that reason by complaining to authorities, and in
> same time provide replacement.
> One could make free software and provide replacement to authorities
> and explain why.

I'm not a practical professional programmer in any way, as I am more
interested in the fundementals of, say, functional programming.
Currently I'm also starting to do some practical programming, mainly for
propogation of the free software movement, as you suggest.

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Jean Louis]

* andrew <andrew@andrewyu.org> [2022-04-18 13:53]:
> My problem is that when I say "please contact me by email because I
> don't wanna use WeChat", people go like "nope".  Frustrating.

I have that taking place, but I do not have such problem. 

Today I am managing project in Tanzania on distance by using XMPP
protocol, and all people are aligned and well. It is business
focused. There is interest and purpose, and people listen to
instructions. While they may privately use proprietary Whatsapp -- it
is strictly disallowed in our business.

I tell to people to use XMPP, provide them the XMPP username/password
and they connect to me. 

If they don't, there is no benefit.

Your friends, those who regard you with affection and trust, they will
connect to you over different networks. That is also proof if you got
a good connection, true rapport, true relation to that person or not.

So it is like a game with fish, if you have some benefit, they will
come. I have people on XMPP for years connected.

> People in my grade be like:
> 
>   1. Why do you have a Website?  Why not "just" use Weibo (similar to
>      twitter blah blah)

I find it advanced if you have a website. The simple answer is because
you can do it, they can't.

>   2. Why do you use "ancient" technology such as RFC822 Email, IRC and
>      XMPP, when we have cool "good" stuff that everyone uses like
>      WeChat?

It is not ancient, rather stable and proven technology.

WeChat cannot be compared to those.

As a salesman of ideas, you better make a list of benefits of email,
IRC, XMPP, etc. to be able to counter such talk.

But even better, make a prize, like they can win something like phone
or what? -- provided they sign up and participate. You can make a
course about free software with questions and answers and let people
pass through it and always offer them some next prize, and later make
a physical group of people gathering together.

>   3. What is ".org"?  All Websites I've seen end with ".com" or
>      ".edu.cn".

Today there are hundreds of Top Level Domain extensions, kids can't
know everything.

> 4. Why do you care about "freedom"?  Why do you care about privacy if
>    you have nothing to hide?  Why is freedom more important than
>    convenience?

Nothing to Hide - Markkula Center for Applied Ethics
https://www.scu.edu/ethics/privacy/nothing-to-hide/

Use arguments from the above article.

> (There's even a guy in my class who goes like:  Whenever I draw a GNU
> head or a OpenBSD Puffy in art homework or something, he puts Windows 10
> logos all the place and talks about why free software is bad.  He's the
> exception (other people are genuinely asking questions) and is probably
> a troll, causes a lot of damage to what I do.)

That is common, I find it funny. Use ricing and demonstrate all the
good desktop features of GNU/Linux systems, like 3D compositors,
something flashy. Then make special category on website to show it
off. 

Always include those meta tags in websites like Open Graph, Schema.org
as to distribute it better on social networks.

> > I am sure in China there are human rights defined in laws, and one
> > shall find which apply to free software and then put focus on such
> > laws and prevention of human rights abuses by usage of proprietary
> > software.
> 
> Part of what I do :)  I have a bunch of unpublished ones (written in
> Chinese) that I might release in a batch.

Great!

> > For example in some countries one may argue WHY did country allow only
> > specific provider to be accepted and provide free software? 
> 
> I do not undestand how "specific provider"s could be allowed only and
> provide free software, can you elaborate?

In a free country government contracts should be given by tender and
not just approved by single officers as that is related to
corruption. 

Question is why did government choose to use some proprietary provider
and endanger citizen's privacy over some of available free software?

How did it come for such software to be approved? Dig out.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[andrew via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 22/04/18 03:09PM, Jean Louis wrote:
> * andrew <andrew@andrewyu.org> [2022-04-18 13:53]:
> > My problem is that when I say "please contact me by email because I
> > don't wanna use WeChat", people go like "nope".  Frustrating.
> 
> I have that taking place, but I do not have such problem. 
> 
> Today I am managing project in Tanzania on distance by using XMPP
> protocol, and all people are aligned and well. It is business
> focused. There is interest and purpose, and people listen to
> instructions. While they may privately use proprietary Whatsapp -- it
> is strictly disallowed in our business.
> 
> I tell to people to use XMPP, provide them the XMPP username/password
> and they connect to me. 
> 
> If they don't, there is no benefit.

Finally, business managers who know what they're doing exist!  Thank
you, as this definitely helps FS.
 
> Your friends, those who regard you with affection and trust, they will
> connect to you over different networks. That is also proof if you got
> a good connection, true rapport, true relation to that person or not.

Some do, but rare.
 
> So it is like a game with fish, if you have some benefit, they will
> come. I have people on XMPP for years connected.

Dangerous uptimes :) but I get your point.

> > People in my grade be like:
> > 
> >   1. Why do you have a Website?  Why not "just" use Weibo (similar to
> >      twitter blah blah)
> 
> I find it advanced if you have a website. The simple answer is because
> you can do it, they can't.

Their question is more along the lines of "Why do you even bother to
make a Website?"

> >   2. Why do you use "ancient" technology such as RFC822 Email, IRC and
> >      XMPP, when we have cool "good" stuff that everyone uses like
> >      WeChat?
> 
> It is not ancient, rather stable and proven technology.
> 
> WeChat cannot be compared to those.
> 
> As a salesman of ideas, you better make a list of benefits of email,
> IRC, XMPP, etc. to be able to counter such talk.

I'll put that somewhere on <https://fcm.andrewyu.org>.  Great points!

> But even better, make a prize, like they can win something like phone
> or what? -- provided they sign up and participate. You can make a
> course about free software with questions and answers and let people
> pass through it and always offer them some next prize, and later make
> a physical group of people gathering together.

Can't think up of a prize right now, but again, that might as well work.
I don't want them to see learning FS as a utilitarian way to get prizes,
though.

> >   3. What is ".org"?  All Websites I've seen end with ".com" or
> >      ".edu.cn".
> 
> Today there are hundreds of Top Level Domain extensions, kids can't
> know everything.

Only seeing .com and .edu.cn is certainlly limited.

> 
> > 4. Why do you care about "freedom"?  Why do you care about privacy if
> >    you have nothing to hide?  Why is freedom more important than
> >    convenience?
> 
> Nothing to Hide - Markkula Center for Applied Ethics
> https://www.scu.edu/ethics/privacy/nothing-to-hide/
> 
> Use arguments from the above article.

Thank you!  Still need to elaborate on freedom, shouldn't be too hard.

> > (There's even a guy in my class who goes like:  Whenever I draw a GNU
> > head or a OpenBSD Puffy in art homework or something, he puts Windows 10
> > logos all the place and talks about why free software is bad.  He's the
> > exception (other people are genuinely asking questions) and is probably
> > a troll, causes a lot of damage to what I do.)
> 
> That is common, I find it funny. Use ricing

for more advanced users I'll show emacs configs

and demonstrate all the
> good desktop features of GNU/Linux systems, like 3D compositors,
> something flashy. Then make special category on website to show it
> off. 

Yup!

> Always include those meta tags in websites like Open Graph, Schema.org
> as to distribute it better on social networks.

I'll look those up later.  Unsure what those are.

> > > For example in some countries one may argue WHY did country allow only
> > > specific provider to be accepted and provide free software? 
> > 
> > I do not undestand how "specific provider"s could be allowed only and
> > provide free software, can you elaborate?
> 
> In a free country government contracts should be given by tender and
> not just approved by single officers as that is related to
> corruption. 
> 
> Question is why did government choose to use some proprietary provider
> and endanger citizen's privacy over some of available free software?
> 
> How did it come for such software to be approved? Dig out.

s/they pick some nonfree software to use/they make some nonfree software
                                         with the help of some corps/g

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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Yasuaki Kudo]

Hi,

(I have just 'replied all' from my (God forbid, proprietary!) IPhone so forgive me, the addresses in To or CC are pretty arbitrary)

I am very sympathetic to everyone who live in authoritarian regimes.   Pre-1945, someone like me, (an anarchist, pacifist, democrat, an apologist for enemy states and all the rest... ) in Japan would have been probably arrested, tortured and or killed for trumped up charges.

I often wonder what my escape hatch would be, if I lived in North Korea or something.   I might learn how to be a good singer, a computer programmer, or anything else and stay away from politics.

But there are many in-between states where the regime may mimic a shambolic 'democracy' just for the show, or strongly suppress unwanted opinions by murder, kidnap, etc and the majority would happily live without questioning too much, and not call the state totalitarian.  The regime will allow a certain range of public discourse that are irrelevant or useful to the regime.

In such cases, and I suspect PRC may qualify, (But I don't know the country well enough) the discussion of Free Software might be within the permitted range of discourse, as its purported aim is just to promote a particular form of software licensing, no big deal.

But of course, there is another dimension in that it is a way of hinting a bigger idea such as democracy and free speech, while stopping short of directly mentioning them.

My apologies if I am completely off the track here but again, I feel deeply for people who don't have the kind of freedoms completely taken for granted in advanced industrial 'Western' countries (for which Japan seems to be an honorary member from the East😅) and I would love to work with everyone to do everything practical to improve the situation!

I am not sure whether this helps in the discussion of what the appropriate topic is for this mailing list, etc, but wanted to mention that I think the social context could be very different for each participant .

Cheers,
Yasu


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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[Jean Louis]

* Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> [2022-04-18 15:27]:
> (I have just 'replied all' from my (God forbid, proprietary!) IPhone
> so forgive me, the addresses in To or CC are pretty arbitrary)

That is absolutely not a problem. Almost all people come to know free
software from proprietary software.

> I often wonder what my escape hatch would be, if I lived in North
> Korea or something.   I might learn how to be a good singer, a
> computer programmer, or anything else and stay away from politics.

Exactly.

> But there are many in-between states where the regime may mimic a
> shambolic 'democracy' just for the show, or strongly suppress
> unwanted opinions by murder, kidnap, etc and the majority would
> happily live without questioning too much, and not call the state
> totalitarian.  The regime will allow a certain range of public
> discourse that are irrelevant or useful to the regime.

Yes, like EU "democracy".

> In such cases, and I suspect PRC may qualify, (But I don't know the
> country well enough) the discussion of Free Software might be within
> the permitted range of discourse, as its purported aim is just to
> promote a particular form of software licensing, no big deal.

I think in PRC there is no problem with free software, except in
government sections where they should know more about it.

Russia is now officially to reject US based proprietary software,
because it is US software, and thus will focus more on free
software. Same thing may happen in China.


-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
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Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list

[andrew via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 22/04/18 09:26PM, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:
> (I have just 'replied all' from my (God forbid, proprietary!) IPhone 
> so forgive me, the addresses in To or CC are pretty arbitrary)

RIP
 
> I am very sympathetic to everyone who live in authoritarian regimes
> .   Pre-1945, someone like me, (an anarchist, pacifist, democrat, an 
> apologist for enemy states and all the rest... ) in Japan would have 
> been probably arrested, tortured and or killed for trumped up charges.

As far as I know, those still happen in places like the DPRK, and
sometimes Russia.

> I often wonder what my escape hatch would be, if I lived in North 
> Korea or something.   I might learn how to be a good singer, a 
> computer programmer, or anything else and stay away from politics.

Sing any western songs with *slight* political meanings? Gunboom.

> But there are many in-between states where the regime may mimic a 
> shambolic 'democracy' just for the show, or strongly suppress 
> unwanted opinions by murder, kidnap, etc and the majority would 
> happily live without questioning too much, and not call the state 
> totalitarian.  The regime will allow a certain range of public 
> discourse that are irrelevant or useful to the regime.

> In such cases, and I suspect PRC may qualify, (But I don't know the 
> country well enough) the discussion of Free Software might be within 
> the permitted range of discourse, as its purported aim is just to 
> promote a particular form of software licensing, no big deal.

It *might* fall into that category, but murder, kidnap aren't the case,
rather it's more of "the police takes you to the station and you agree
to not do it or you sue the police" or something similar.

> But of course, there is another dimension in that it is a way of 
> hinting a bigger idea such as democracy and free speech, while 
> stopping short of directly mentioning them.

I do that all the time.  Many people critize the high centralization of
the central government, as long as it doesn't go further than "normal"
(definitely not going to showcase that!), you'd be okay.

> My apologies if I am completely off the track here but again, I feel 
> deeply for people who don't have the kind of freedoms completely 
> taken for granted in advanced industrial 'Western' countries (for 
> which Japan seems to be an honorary member from the East😅) and I 
> would love to work with everyone to do everything practical to 
> improve the situation!

Thank you!

> I am not sure whether this helps in the discussion of what the 
> appropriate topic is for this mailing list, etc, but wanted to 
> mention that I think the social context could be very different for 
> each participant.

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