Moving Forward

Moving Forward

[Matt Ivie]

Hello

There has been a lot of damage done in the last week or so and it is
clear that not everyone in the community feels the same way about
everything going on. I want to voice my support for RMS, for the FSF
and for the Free Software Community.

This is not the first attack to ever take place on a community or the
figurehead of a movement. I think we all know that other important
social movements have had their share of media-driven scandal. What is
most important here is how we move forward.

What RMS said is being misquoted and misstated everywhere around the
web. Those that were already overly critical of him just went
supernova. This situation has made it hard to keep perspective of
what's going on.

There are some things in this situation that are not totally clear to
me:

1) Is RMS still going to have any kind of interaction with the FSF? 

2) I am unclear as to the motivation for his resignation. I'd like to
know if he voluntarily resigned or if he was urged or forced to
"voluntarily" resign?

2a) Did RMS, or the FSF board have him resign to do some damage control
and create distance between himself and the FSF or did he resign due to
demand of the board and others within the FSF because they wanted him
gone, as has been theorized?

Having a clear understanding of these motivations can be helpful in
trying to sort out where we need to go next.

This movement must continue. We need to have Free Software, not Open
Source software. We need GNU/Linux, not "Linux". We need these things
not just for the practical and obvious applications of the things
themselves but also for the ideology they carry. We have to quit
fighting over this. What's done is done. If you care about Free
Software then let's show support to the FSF and work together as a
community, and RMS is still a part of this community.

I want to mention that I did attend LibrePlanet this year, for the
first time. I loved it and I met so many amazing people. It was a very
inviting atmosphere and everyone there was very respectful and
friendly. Everyone at the FSF were great as well. I found the entire
experience to be very positive. This community has really great people
in it.

Thank you
Matt Ivie


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Re: Moving Forward

[A. Mani]

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 6:11 PM Matt Ivie <m0dese7en@mykolab.com> wrote:
> This is not the first attack to ever take place on a community or the
> figurehead of a movement. I think we all know that other important
> social movements have had their share of media-driven scandal. What is
> most important here is how we move forward.

+1

> What RMS said is being misquoted and misstated everywhere around the
> web. Those that were already overly critical of him just went
> supernova. This situation has made it hard to keep perspective of
> what's going on.

The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger problem
is the number of reports on
RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before even within
the free software community before -- at most people invoked various
disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's response to
a question was
"Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in RMS's
blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.

FSF will do well to highlight its commitment to gender equality and
feminist practices.

>
> There are some things in this situation that are not totally clear to
> me:
>
> 1) Is RMS still going to have any kind of interaction with the FSF?

Should FSF impose conditions on those who are associated with them?

> 2) I am unclear as to the motivation for his resignation. I'd like to
> know if he voluntarily resigned or if he was urged or forced to
> "voluntarily" resign?
>

Apparently it is voluntary. It is really a good thing.
The image of FSF would have been severely tarnished otherwise.



Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net

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Re: Moving Forward

[Aaron Wolf]

On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 6:11 PM Matt Ivie <m0dese7en@mykolab.com> wrote:
>> This is not the first attack to ever take place on a community or the
>> figurehead of a movement. I think we all know that other important
>> social movements have had their share of media-driven scandal. What is
>> most important here is how we move forward.
> 
> +1
> 
>> What RMS said is being misquoted and misstated everywhere around the
>> web. Those that were already overly critical of him just went
>> supernova. This situation has made it hard to keep perspective of
>> what's going on.
> 
> The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger problem
> is the number of reports on
> RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
> accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before even within
> the free software community before -- at most people invoked various
> disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's response to
> a question was
> "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
> Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in RMS's
> blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
> 

Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're describing is
more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a particularly
male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist society.
Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty parsimonious
explanation for RMS' behavior.

The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems inaccurate
to me from all I've seen of his stated views.

That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But taking it at
pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.

RMS may indeed disagree with several aspects of various schools of
feminism, but that's quite tangential to the FSF, with the exception
that it's indeed a liability to have a leader who expresses
controversial opinions on unrelated topics, even if that's done separately.

> FSF will do well to highlight its commitment to gender equality and
> feminist practices.
> 

Sure, I support that completely. To make this appropriate, however, it
should emphasize the ways in which software freedom align. Non-free
software is one tool that the patriarchal power structures use to
maintain their power and the status quo. We can and should talk about
how real software freedom needs to focus on getting the freedoms as
downstream as possible so that they aren't the privilege of trained
tech/hacker/programmers (a group that happens to be male dominated).

>>
>> There are some things in this situation that are not totally clear to
>> me:
>>
>> 1) Is RMS still going to have any kind of interaction with the FSF?
> 
> Should FSF impose conditions on those who are associated with them?
> 
>> 2) I am unclear as to the motivation for his resignation. I'd like to
>> know if he voluntarily resigned or if he was urged or forced to
>> "voluntarily" resign?
>>
> 
> Apparently it is voluntary. It is really a good thing.
> The image of FSF would have been severely tarnished otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> A Mani
> 
> Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
> CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
> Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
> Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
> Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
> Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
> sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 


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Re: Moving Forward

[A. Mani]

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf <wolftune@riseup.net> wrote:
>
> On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:

> >
> > The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger problem
> > is the number of reports on
> > RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
> > accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before even within
> > the free software community before -- at most people invoked various
> > disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's response to
> > a question was
> > "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
> > Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in RMS's
> > blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
> >
>
> Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're describing is
> more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a particularly
> male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist society.
> Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty parsimonious
> explanation for RMS' behavior.
>

OK

> The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems inaccurate
> to me from all I've seen of his stated views.
>

Sexism leads to dismissal of feminist viewpoints


> That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
> assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
> encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But taking it at
> pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.

That talk was terribly bad: https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889

"Oh he was called out on it, for decades. There are many blog posts
and mailing list threads calling him out on this particular incident
and all the others. He never gave a shit about any of it, neither did
his followers or the @fsf or the orgs inviting him to speak."

Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.


Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
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Re: Moving Forward

[Deb Nicholson]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3348 bytes --]

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 8:36 PM A. Mani <a.mani.cms@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf <wolftune@riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> > On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
>
> > >
> > > The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger problem
> > > is the number of reports on
> > > RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
> > > accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before even within
> > > the free software community before -- at most people invoked various
> > > disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's response to
> > > a question was
> > > "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
> > > Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in RMS's
> > > blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
> > >
> >
> > Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're describing is
> > more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a particularly
> > male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist society.
> > Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty parsimonious
> > explanation for RMS' behavior.
> >
>
> OK
>

Yes, and a freedom movement -- a movement that seeks to empower people --
ought to be held to a higher standard. What is the point of building a
better world that carefully maintains all of the sexism of mainstream
(proprietary) software communities? The FSF is incorporated as a charity
with a mission that definitely does not include "upholding or exceeding
mainstream tech's sexism."

>
> > The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems inaccurate
> > to me from all I've seen of his stated views.
> >
>
> Sexism leads to dismissal of feminist viewpoints
>

+1

>
>
> > That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
> > assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
> > encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But taking it at
> > pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
>
> That talk was terribly bad:
> https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
>
> "Oh he was called out on it, for decades. There are many blog posts
> and mailing list threads calling him out on this particular incident
> and all the others. He never gave a shit about any of it, neither did
> his followers or the @fsf or the orgs inviting him to speak."
>
> Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
>

Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff merely
brought to light what has been happening within the free software movement
for years. We can't reasonably expect people to believe we are building a
better, freer world without a strong commitment to an inclusive movement
and that means we can't keep enabling and encouraging sexist behavior.
Best,
Deb


Best
>
> A Mani
>
> Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
> CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
> Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
> Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
> Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
> Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
> sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 4038 bytes --]

   On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 8:36 PM A. Mani <[1]a.mani.cms@gmail.com>
   wrote:

     On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf <[2]wolftune@riseup.net>
     wrote:
     >
     > On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
     > >
     > > The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger
     problem
     > > is the number of reports on
     > > RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
     > > accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before even
     within
     > > the free software community before -- at most people invoked
     various
     > > disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's
     response to
     > > a question was
     > > "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
     > > Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in
     RMS's
     > > blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
     > >
     >
     > Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're
     describing is
     > more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a particularly
     > male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist
     society.
     > Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty
     parsimonious
     > explanation for RMS' behavior.
     >
     OK

   Yes, and a freedom movement -- a movement that seeks to empower people
   -- ought to be held to a higher standard. What is the point of building
   a better world that carefully maintains all of the sexism of mainstream
   (proprietary) software communities? The FSF is incorporated as a
   charity with a mission that definitely does not include "upholding or
   exceeding mainstream tech's sexism."

     > The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems
     inaccurate
     > to me from all I've seen of his stated views.
     >
     Sexism leads to dismissal of feminist viewpoints

   +1

     > That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
     > assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
     > encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But taking
     it at
     > pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
     That talk was terribly bad:
     [3]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
     "Oh he was called out on it, for decades. There are many blog posts
     and mailing list threads calling him out on this particular incident
     and all the others. He never gave a shit about any of it, neither
     did
     his followers or the @fsf or the orgs inviting him to speak."
     Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.

   Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
   merely brought to light what has been happening within the free
   software movement for years. We can't reasonably expect people to
   believe we are building a better, freer world without a strong
   commitment to an inclusive movement and that means we can't keep
   enabling and encouraging sexist behavior.
   Best,
   Deb

     Best
     A Mani
     Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
     CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
     Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
     Homepage: [4]http://www.logicamani.in
     Blog: [5]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
     Research Gate: [6]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
     [7]sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s

References

   1. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
   2. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
   3. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
   4. http://www.logicamani.in/
   5. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
   6. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
   7. mailto:sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
   8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Moving Forward

[Thomas Lord]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4400 bytes --]

>  Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff

When people launch a press campaign to lie about you and defame you on
the basis of a libel, that is not your "gaff".   No reasonable person
could have published any of the widely read attacks.  They are
intellectually and socially dishonest, objectively, and to the core. 

-t 

On 2019-09-23 19:09, Deb Nicholson wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 8:36 PM A. Mani <[1]a.mani.cms@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf <[2]wolftune@riseup.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
>> >
>> > The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger
> problem
>> > is the number of reports on
>> > RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
>> > accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before even
> within
>> > the free software community before -- at most people invoked
> various
>> > disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's
> response to
>> > a question was
>> > "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
>> > Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in
> RMS's
>> > blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
>> >
>>
>> Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're
> describing is
>> more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a particularly
>> male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist
> society.
>> Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty
> parsimonious
>> explanation for RMS' behavior.
>>
> OK
> 
> Yes, and a freedom movement -- a movement that seeks to empower people
> -- ought to be held to a higher standard. What is the point of building
> a better world that carefully maintains all of the sexism of mainstream
> (proprietary) software communities? The FSF is incorporated as a
> charity with a mission that definitely does not include "upholding or
> exceeding mainstream tech's sexism."
> 
>> The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems
> inaccurate
>> to me from all I've seen of his stated views.
>>
> Sexism leads to dismissal of feminist viewpoints
> 
> +1
> 
>> That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
>> assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
>> encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But taking
> it at
>> pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
> That talk was terribly bad:
> [3]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
> "Oh he was called out on it, for decades. There are many blog posts
> and mailing list threads calling him out on this particular incident
> and all the others. He never gave a shit about any of it, neither
> did
> his followers or the @fsf or the orgs inviting him to speak."
> Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
> 
> Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
> merely brought to light what has been happening within the free
> software movement for years. We can't reasonably expect people to
> believe we are building a better, freer world without a strong
> commitment to an inclusive movement and that means we can't keep
> enabling and encouraging sexist behavior.
> Best,
> Deb
> 
> Best
> A Mani
> Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
> CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
> Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
> Homepage: [4]http://www.logicamani.in
> Blog: [5]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
> Research Gate: [6]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
> [7]sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
> s
> 
> References
> 
> 1. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
> 3. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
> 4. http://www.logicamani.in/
> 5. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
> 6. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
> 7. mailto:sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
> 8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> 9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 5967 bytes --]

   >  Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
   When people launch a press campaign to lie about you and defame you on
   the basis of a libel, that is not your "gaff".   No reasonable person
   could have published any of the widely read attacks.  They are
   intellectually and socially dishonest, objectively, and to the core.

   -t



   On 2019-09-23 19:09, Deb Nicholson wrote:

      On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 8:36 PM A. Mani <[1][1]a.mani.cms@gmail.com>
      wrote:
        On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf
   <[2][2]wolftune@riseup.net>
        wrote:
        >
        > On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
        > >
        > > The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger
        problem
        > > is the number of reports on
        > > RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
        > > accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before
   even
        within
        > > the free software community before -- at most people invoked
        various
        > > disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's
        response to
        > > a question was
        > > "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
        > > Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in
        RMS's
        > > blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
        > >
        >
        > Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're
        describing is
        > more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a
   particularly
        > male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist
        society.
        > Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty
        parsimonious
        > explanation for RMS' behavior.
        >
        OK
      Yes, and a freedom movement -- a movement that seeks to empower
   people
      -- ought to be held to a higher standard. What is the point of
   building
      a better world that carefully maintains all of the sexism of
   mainstream
      (proprietary) software communities? The FSF is incorporated as a
      charity with a mission that definitely does not include "upholding
   or
      exceeding mainstream tech's sexism."
        > The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems
        inaccurate
        > to me from all I've seen of his stated views.
        >
        Sexism leads to dismissal of feminist viewpoints
      +1
        > That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
        > assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
        > encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But
   taking
        it at
        > pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
        That talk was terribly bad:
        [3][3]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
        "Oh he was called out on it, for decades. There are many blog
   posts
        and mailing list threads calling him out on this particular
   incident
        and all the others. He never gave a shit about any of it, neither
        did
        his followers or the @fsf or the orgs inviting him to speak."
        Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
      Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
      merely brought to light what has been happening within the free
      software movement for years. We can't reasonably expect people to
      believe we are building a better, freer world without a strong
      commitment to an inclusive movement and that means we can't keep
      enabling and encouraging sexist behavior.
      Best,
      Deb
        Best
        A Mani
        Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
        CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
        Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
        Homepage: [4][4]http://www.logicamani.in
        Blog: [5][5]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
        Research Gate: [6][6]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
        [7]sip:[7]girlprofessor@ekiga.net
        _______________________________________________
        libreplanet-discuss mailing list
        [8][8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
        [9][9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
   iscus
        s
   References
      1. mailto:[10]a.mani.cms@gmail.com
      2. mailto:[11]wolftune@riseup.net
      3. [12]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
      4. [13]http://www.logicamani.in/
      5. [14]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
      6. [15]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
      7. mailto:sip:[16]girlprofessor@ekiga.net
      8. mailto:[17]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
      9.
   [18]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

   _______________________________________________
   libreplanet-discuss mailing list
   [19]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   [20]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
   2. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
   3. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
   4. http://www.logicamani.in/
   5. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
   6. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
   7. mailto:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
   8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
  10. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
  11. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
  12. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
  13. http://www.logicamani.in/
  14. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
  15. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
  16. mailto:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
  17. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  18. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  19. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  20. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Moving Forward

[Deb Nicholson]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6441 bytes --]

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:28 PM Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:

> >  Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
>
> When people launch a press campaign to lie about you and defame you on the
> basis of a libel, that is not your "gaff".
>

The "gaff" is jumping into the Epstein conversation without understanding
the context at all. The entire MIT community had been discussing the way
women are treated as second class citizens because men of like Epstein --
for weeks. Women have been sharing stories of important networking parties
that they weren't invited to because only underage girls were invited.
They've been talking about who gets invited to what meetings and who gets
promoted at MIT and how that drives the focus of the work the. Jumping in
to say, "Maybe one of those men who slept with an underage girl didn't know
she was being trafficked" was an extreme case of not reading the room. So
yeah, that's a "gaff."

It also brought to the center of the conversation, many of the other times
that women have been belittled, written off or subjected to harassment here
in free software.

The article in Vice was badly done. But every article in Vice is badly
done. That isn't a conspiracy, it's just crappy journalism from an outlet
well-known for crappy journalism.

The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real women who
have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by sexist
behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally* be heard.

I offer this perspective in the spirit of helping the free software
community move forward. If we get stuck on the Vice article (seriously, no
one trusts Vice) without addressing any of the legitimate issues, then we
won't be able to move forward.
Best,
Deb

No reasonable person could have published any of the widely read attacks.
> They are intellectually and socially dishonest, objectively, and to the
> core.
>
> -t
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2019-09-23 19:09, Deb Nicholson wrote:
>
>    On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 8:36 PM A. Mani <[1]a.mani.cms@gmail.com>
>    wrote:
>
>      On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf <[2]wolftune@riseup.net>
>      wrote:
>      >
>      > On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
>      > >
>      > > The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger
>      problem
>      > > is the number of reports on
>      > > RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
>      > > accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before even
>      within
>      > > the free software community before -- at most people invoked
>      various
>      > > disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's
>      response to
>      > > a question was
>      > > "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
>      > > Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in
>      RMS's
>      > > blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
>      > >
>      >
>      > Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're
>      describing is
>      > more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a particularly
>      > male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist
>      society.
>      > Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty
>      parsimonious
>      > explanation for RMS' behavior.
>      >
>      OK
>
>    Yes, and a freedom movement -- a movement that seeks to empower people
>    -- ought to be held to a higher standard. What is the point of building
>    a better world that carefully maintains all of the sexism of mainstream
>    (proprietary) software communities? The FSF is incorporated as a
>    charity with a mission that definitely does not include "upholding or
>    exceeding mainstream tech's sexism."
>
>      > The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems
>      inaccurate
>      > to me from all I've seen of his stated views.
>      >
>      Sexism leads to dismissal of feminist viewpoints
>
>    +1
>
>      > That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
>      > assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
>      > encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But taking
>      it at
>      > pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
>      That talk was terribly bad:
>      [3]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
>      "Oh he was called out on it, for decades. There are many blog posts
>      and mailing list threads calling him out on this particular incident
>      and all the others. He never gave a shit about any of it, neither
>      did
>      his followers or the @fsf or the orgs inviting him to speak."
>      Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
>
>    Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
>    merely brought to light what has been happening within the free
>    software movement for years. We can't reasonably expect people to
>    believe we are building a better, freer world without a strong
>    commitment to an inclusive movement and that means we can't keep
>    enabling and encouraging sexist behavior.
>    Best,
>    Deb
>
>      Best
>      A Mani
>      Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
>      CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
>      Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
>      Homepage: [4]http://www.logicamani.in
>      Blog: [5]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
>      Research Gate: [6]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
>      [7]sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
>      _______________________________________________
>      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
>      s
>
> References
>
>    1. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
>    2. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
>    3. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
>    4. http://www.logicamani.in/
>    5. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
>    6. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
>    7. mailto:sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
>    8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 7703 bytes --]

   On Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:28 PM Thomas Lord <[1]lord@basiscraft.com>
   wrote:

   >  Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
   When people launch a press campaign to lie about you and defame you on
   the basis of a libel, that is not your "gaff".

   The "gaff" is jumping into the Epstein conversation without
   understanding the context at all. The entire MIT community had been
   discussing the way women are treated as second class citizens because
   men of like Epstein -- for weeks. Women have been sharing stories of
   important networking parties that they weren't invited to because only
   underage girls were invited. They've been talking about who gets
   invited to what meetings and who gets promoted at MIT and how that
   drives the focus of the work the. Jumping in to say, "Maybe one of
   those men who slept with an underage girl didn't know she was being
   trafficked" was an extreme case of not reading the room. So yeah,
   that's a "gaff."
   It also brought to the center of the conversation, many of the other
   times that women have been belittled, written off or subjected to
   harassment here in free software.
   The article in Vice was badly done. But every article in Vice is badly
   done. That isn't a conspiracy, it's just crappy journalism from an
   outlet well-known for crappy journalism.
   The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real women
   who have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
   sexist behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
   *finally* be heard.
   I offer this perspective in the spirit of helping the free software
   community move forward. If we get stuck on the Vice article (seriously,
   no one trusts Vice) without addressing any of the legitimate issues,
   then we won't be able to move forward.
   Best,
   Deb

   No reasonable person could have published any of the widely read
   attacks.  They are intellectually and socially dishonest, objectively,
   and to the core.

   -t


   On 2019-09-23 19:09, Deb Nicholson wrote:

      On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 8:36 PM A. Mani <[1][2]a.mani.cms@gmail.com>
      wrote:
        On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf
   <[2][3]wolftune@riseup.net>
        wrote:
        >
        > On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
        > >
        > > The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger
        problem
        > > is the number of reports on
        > > RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
        > > accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before
   even
        within
        > > the free software community before -- at most people invoked
        various
        > > disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's
        response to
        > > a question was
        > > "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
        > > Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in
        RMS's
        > > blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
        > >
        >
        > Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're
        describing is
        > more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a
   particularly
        > male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist
        society.
        > Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty
        parsimonious
        > explanation for RMS' behavior.
        >
        OK
      Yes, and a freedom movement -- a movement that seeks to empower
   people
      -- ought to be held to a higher standard. What is the point of
   building
      a better world that carefully maintains all of the sexism of
   mainstream
      (proprietary) software communities? The FSF is incorporated as a
      charity with a mission that definitely does not include "upholding
   or
      exceeding mainstream tech's sexism."
        > The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems
        inaccurate
        > to me from all I've seen of his stated views.
        >
        Sexism leads to dismissal of feminist viewpoints
      +1
        > That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
        > assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
        > encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But
   taking
        it at
        > pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
        That talk was terribly bad:
        [3][4]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
        "Oh he was called out on it, for decades. There are many blog
   posts
        and mailing list threads calling him out on this particular
   incident
        and all the others. He never gave a shit about any of it, neither
        did
        his followers or the @fsf or the orgs inviting him to speak."
        Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
      Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
      merely brought to light what has been happening within the free
      software movement for years. We can't reasonably expect people to
      believe we are building a better, freer world without a strong
      commitment to an inclusive movement and that means we can't keep
      enabling and encouraging sexist behavior.
      Best,
      Deb
        Best
        A Mani
        Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
        CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
        Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
        Homepage: [4][5]http://www.logicamani.in
        Blog: [5][6]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
        Research Gate: [6][7]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
        [7]sip:[8]girlprofessor@ekiga.net
        _______________________________________________
        libreplanet-discuss mailing list
        [8][9]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
        [9][10]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-
   discus
        s
   References
      1. mailto:[11]a.mani.cms@gmail.com
      2. mailto:[12]wolftune@riseup.net
      3. [13]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
      4. [14]http://www.logicamani.in/
      5. [15]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
      6. [16]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
      7. mailto:[17]sip:[18]girlprofessor@ekiga.net
      8. mailto:[19]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
      9.
   [20]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

   _______________________________________________
   libreplanet-discuss mailing list
   [21]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   [22]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. mailto:lord@basiscraft.com
   2. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
   3. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
   4. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
   5. http://www.logicamani.in/
   6. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
   7. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
   8. mailto:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
   9. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  10. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
  11. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
  12. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
  13. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
  14. http://www.logicamani.in/
  15. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
  16. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
  17. mailto:sip
  18. mailto:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
  19. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  20. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  21. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  22. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Moving Forward

['smee via libreplanet-discuss]

Quote from you:
"The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real women
who
have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by sexist
behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally* be
heard."


Please give examples giving details of how these people were
'rebuffed'. What exactly were they trying to do when they were
rebuffed? 

Serious question. Were they submitting code? Were they doing QA work?
Which project rebuffed them and what was the reason given?

I think most projects (especially those conscientious enough to be in
the free software movement) would be happy to have contributions from
anyone and don't go out of their way to even find out the sex of
contributors, much less 'rebuff' them for being a particular sex.
And, the funny thing is, these contributors could fork the code, call
out the sexism, and basically take over the code of any project they
were interested in. Anyone in free software knows this, it gives a
peaceful solution to these type of situations. 

Why attack the FSF and RMS? 

Epstein is the horrible piece of trash (as well as all of his
associates) that committed the worst atrocities we've heard of recently
against women. 

Let's not take attention away from that fact or the fact that he is
likely still alive, and that Ghislaine Maxwell is still free and,
seemingly won't ever be charged or even approached about this. She is
trash and shouldn't be allowed to show her face anywhere in the world
again for being his accomplice. 

Let's keep the spotlight where it belongs (epstein, maxwell, everyone
including judges and politicians who helped him) when it comes to all
the things you're accusing RMS of. Those are the real animals. I'm
starting to think this whole thing is a distraction from those pieces
of garbage. What do you think people? Don't forget EPSTEIN and MAXWELL
should continue to be the focus until that thing is actually resolved. 

@ Deb Nicholson, I have a number of questions above, if you insist on
your assertion, then provide what I've requested please.








On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 09:13 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real women
> who
> have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
> sexist
> behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally* be
> heard.

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Moving Forward

[Deb Nicholson]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2582 bytes --]

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:46 AM 'smee <overthefalls@opengroupware.ch>
wrote:

> Quote from you:
> "The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real women
> who
> have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by sexist
> behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally* be
> heard."
>
>
> Please give examples giving details of how these people were
> 'rebuffed'. What exactly were they trying to do when they were
> rebuffed?
>
> Serious question. Were they submitting code? Were they doing QA work?
> Which project rebuffed them and what was the reason given?
>
> I think most projects (especially those conscientious enough to be in
> the free software movement) would be happy to have contributions from
> anyone and don't go out of their way to even find out the sex of
> contributors, much less 'rebuff' them for being a particular sex.
> And, the funny thing is, these contributors could fork the code, call
> out the sexism, and basically take over the code of any project they
> were interested in. Anyone in free software knows this, it gives a
> peaceful solution to these type of situations.
>
> Why attack the FSF and RMS?
>

I have not attacked the FSF.


>
> Epstein is the horrible piece of trash (as well as all of his
> associates) that committed the worst atrocities we've heard of recently
> against women.
>
> Let's not take attention away from that fact or the fact that he is
> likely still alive, and that Ghislaine Maxwell is still free and,
> seemingly won't ever be charged or even approached about this. She is
> trash and shouldn't be allowed to show her face anywhere in the world
> again for being his accomplice.
>
> Let's keep the spotlight where it belongs (epstein, maxwell, everyone
> including judges and politicians who helped him) when it comes to all
> the things you're accusing RMS of. Those are the real animals. I'm
> starting to think this whole thing is a distraction from those pieces
> of garbage. What do you think people? Don't forget EPSTEIN and MAXWELL
> should continue to be the focus until that thing is actually resolved.
>
> @ Deb Nicholson, I have a number of questions above, if you insist on
> your assertion, then provide what I've requested please.
>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 09:13 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> > The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real women
> > who
> > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
> > sexist
> > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally* be
> > heard.
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 2830 bytes --]

   On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:46 AM 'smee
   <[1]overthefalls@opengroupware.ch> wrote:

     Quote from you:
     "The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
     women
     who
     have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
     sexist
     behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally*
     be
     heard."
     Please give examples giving details of how these people were
     'rebuffed'. What exactly were they trying to do when they were
     rebuffed?
     Serious question. Were they submitting code? Were they doing QA
     work?
     Which project rebuffed them and what was the reason given?
     I think most projects (especially those conscientious enough to be
     in
     the free software movement) would be happy to have contributions
     from
     anyone and don't go out of their way to even find out the sex of
     contributors, much less 'rebuff' them for being a particular sex.
     And, the funny thing is, these contributors could fork the code,
     call
     out the sexism, and basically take over the code of any project they
     were interested in. Anyone in free software knows this, it gives a
     peaceful solution to these type of situations.
     Why attack the FSF and RMS?

   I have not attacked the FSF.

     Epstein is the horrible piece of trash (as well as all of his
     associates) that committed the worst atrocities we've heard of
     recently
     against women.
     Let's not take attention away from that fact or the fact that he is
     likely still alive, and that Ghislaine Maxwell is still free and,
     seemingly won't ever be charged or even approached about this. She
     is
     trash and shouldn't be allowed to show her face anywhere in the
     world
     again for being his accomplice.
     Let's keep the spotlight where it belongs (epstein, maxwell,
     everyone
     including judges and politicians who helped him) when it comes to
     all
     the things you're accusing RMS of. Those are the real animals. I'm
     starting to think this whole thing is a distraction from those
     pieces
     of garbage. What do you think people? Don't forget EPSTEIN and
     MAXWELL
     should continue to be the focus until that thing is actually
     resolved.
     @ Deb Nicholson, I have a number of questions above, if you insist
     on
     your assertion, then provide what I've requested please.

     On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 09:13 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
     > The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
     women
     > who
     > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
     > sexist
     > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally*
     be
     > heard.

References

   1. mailto:overthefalls@opengroupware.ch

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Moving Forward

['smee via libreplanet-discuss]

Please answer my other questions if you insist there are real people
who have had a bad experience with a particular project because of
their sex or sexual orientation. Specifics shouldn't be hard to come up
with given the strength of your assertion. Please give specifics. Or
address any one of my other points instead of setting up a strawman and
 knocking it down.

On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:55 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:46 AM 'smee <overthefalls@opengroupware.ch
> > wrote:
> > Quote from you:
> > "The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
> > women
> > who
> > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
> > sexist
> > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally*
> > be
> > heard."
> > 
> > 
> > Please give examples giving details of how these people were
> > 'rebuffed'. What exactly were they trying to do when they were
> > rebuffed? 
> > 
> > Serious question. Were they submitting code? Were they doing QA
> > work?
> > Which project rebuffed them and what was the reason given?
> > 
> > I think most projects (especially those conscientious enough to be
> > in
> > the free software movement) would be happy to have contributions
> > from
> > anyone and don't go out of their way to even find out the sex of
> > contributors, much less 'rebuff' them for being a particular sex.
> > And, the funny thing is, these contributors could fork the code,
> > call
> > out the sexism, and basically take over the code of any project
> > they
> > were interested in. Anyone in free software knows this, it gives a
> > peaceful solution to these type of situations. 
> > 
> > Why attack the FSF and RMS? 
> 
> I have not attacked the FSF. 
>  
> > Epstein is the horrible piece of trash (as well as all of his
> > associates) that committed the worst atrocities we've heard of
> > recently
> > against women. 
> > 
> > Let's not take attention away from that fact or the fact that he is
> > likely still alive, and that Ghislaine Maxwell is still free and,
> > seemingly won't ever be charged or even approached about this. She
> > is
> > trash and shouldn't be allowed to show her face anywhere in the
> > world
> > again for being his accomplice. 
> > 
> > Let's keep the spotlight where it belongs (epstein, maxwell,
> > everyone
> > including judges and politicians who helped him) when it comes to
> > all
> > the things you're accusing RMS of. Those are the real animals. I'm
> > starting to think this whole thing is a distraction from those
> > pieces
> > of garbage. What do you think people? Don't forget EPSTEIN and
> > MAXWELL
> > should continue to be the focus until that thing is actually
> > resolved. 
> > 
> > @ Deb Nicholson, I have a number of questions above, if you insist
> > on
> > your assertion, then provide what I've requested please.  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 09:13 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> > > The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
> > women
> > > who
> > > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
> > > sexist
> > > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
> > *finally* be
> > > heard.
> > 

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Re: Moving Forward

[Deb Nicholson]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4196 bytes --]

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:03 PM 'smee <overthefalls@opengroupware.ch>
wrote:

> Please answer my other questions if you insist there are real people
> who have had a bad experience with a particular project because of
> their sex or sexual orientation. Specifics shouldn't be hard to come up
> with given the strength of your assertion. Please give specifics. Or
> address any one of my other points instead of setting up a strawman and
>  knocking it down.
>

We've been talking about this topic for a week and many, many links have
been provided. But once again, here are some links to specifics.

https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88
https://mjg59.livejournal.com/113408.html

Because of the antagonistic nature of this thread, I will not add the
dozens of experiences that have been related to me personally. I'm also not
interested in discussing the specifics of each of these events with you. If
a mountain of evidence hasn't convinced you that a pattern of behavior
exists, then there's nothing I could say to change your mind and I have
more important things to do today.

Best,
Deb


> On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:55 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:46 AM 'smee <overthefalls@opengroupware.ch
> > > wrote:
> > > Quote from you:
> > > "The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
> > > women
> > > who
> > > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
> > > sexist
> > > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally*
> > > be
> > > heard."
> > >
> > >
> > > Please give examples giving details of how these people were
> > > 'rebuffed'. What exactly were they trying to do when they were
> > > rebuffed?
> > >
> > > Serious question. Were they submitting code? Were they doing QA
> > > work?
> > > Which project rebuffed them and what was the reason given?
> > >
> > > I think most projects (especially those conscientious enough to be
> > > in
> > > the free software movement) would be happy to have contributions
> > > from
> > > anyone and don't go out of their way to even find out the sex of
> > > contributors, much less 'rebuff' them for being a particular sex.
> > > And, the funny thing is, these contributors could fork the code,
> > > call
> > > out the sexism, and basically take over the code of any project
> > > they
> > > were interested in. Anyone in free software knows this, it gives a
> > > peaceful solution to these type of situations.
> > >
> > > Why attack the FSF and RMS?
> >
> > I have not attacked the FSF.
> >
> > > Epstein is the horrible piece of trash (as well as all of his
> > > associates) that committed the worst atrocities we've heard of
> > > recently
> > > against women.
> > >
> > > Let's not take attention away from that fact or the fact that he is
> > > likely still alive, and that Ghislaine Maxwell is still free and,
> > > seemingly won't ever be charged or even approached about this. She
> > > is
> > > trash and shouldn't be allowed to show her face anywhere in the
> > > world
> > > again for being his accomplice.
> > >
> > > Let's keep the spotlight where it belongs (epstein, maxwell,
> > > everyone
> > > including judges and politicians who helped him) when it comes to
> > > all
> > > the things you're accusing RMS of. Those are the real animals. I'm
> > > starting to think this whole thing is a distraction from those
> > > pieces
> > > of garbage. What do you think people? Don't forget EPSTEIN and
> > > MAXWELL
> > > should continue to be the focus until that thing is actually
> > > resolved.
> > >
> > > @ Deb Nicholson, I have a number of questions above, if you insist
> > > on
> > > your assertion, then provide what I've requested please.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 09:13 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> > > > The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
> > > women
> > > > who
> > > > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
> > > > sexist
> > > > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
> > > *finally* be
> > > > heard.
> > >
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 4891 bytes --]

   On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:03 PM 'smee
   <[1]overthefalls@opengroupware.ch> wrote:

     Please answer my other questions if you insist there are real people
     who have had a bad experience with a particular project because of
     their sex or sexual orientation. Specifics shouldn't be hard to come
     up
     with given the strength of your assertion. Please give specifics. Or
     address any one of my other points instead of setting up a strawman
     and
      knocking it down.

   We've been talking about this topic for a week and many, many links
   have been provided. But once again, here are some links to specifics.
   [2]https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
   [3]https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41
   e784f88
   [4]https://mjg59.livejournal.com/113408.html
   Because of the antagonistic nature of this thread, I will not add the
   dozens of experiences that have been related to me personally. I'm also
   not interested in discussing the specifics of each of these events with
   you. If a mountain of evidence hasn't convinced you that a pattern of
   behavior exists, then there's nothing I could say to change your mind
   and I have more important things to do today.
   Best,
   Deb

     On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:55 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
     >
     >
     > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:46 AM 'smee
     <[5]overthefalls@opengroupware.ch
     > > wrote:
     > > Quote from you:
     > > "The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
     > > women
     > > who
     > > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
     > > sexist
     > > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
     *finally*
     > > be
     > > heard."
     > >
     > >
     > > Please give examples giving details of how these people were
     > > 'rebuffed'. What exactly were they trying to do when they were
     > > rebuffed?
     > >
     > > Serious question. Were they submitting code? Were they doing QA
     > > work?
     > > Which project rebuffed them and what was the reason given?
     > >
     > > I think most projects (especially those conscientious enough to
     be
     > > in
     > > the free software movement) would be happy to have contributions
     > > from
     > > anyone and don't go out of their way to even find out the sex of
     > > contributors, much less 'rebuff' them for being a particular
     sex.
     > > And, the funny thing is, these contributors could fork the code,
     > > call
     > > out the sexism, and basically take over the code of any project
     > > they
     > > were interested in. Anyone in free software knows this, it gives
     a
     > > peaceful solution to these type of situations.
     > >
     > > Why attack the FSF and RMS?
     >
     > I have not attacked the FSF.
     >
     > > Epstein is the horrible piece of trash (as well as all of his
     > > associates) that committed the worst atrocities we've heard of
     > > recently
     > > against women.
     > >
     > > Let's not take attention away from that fact or the fact that he
     is
     > > likely still alive, and that Ghislaine Maxwell is still free
     and,
     > > seemingly won't ever be charged or even approached about this.
     She
     > > is
     > > trash and shouldn't be allowed to show her face anywhere in the
     > > world
     > > again for being his accomplice.
     > >
     > > Let's keep the spotlight where it belongs (epstein, maxwell,
     > > everyone
     > > including judges and politicians who helped him) when it comes
     to
     > > all
     > > the things you're accusing RMS of. Those are the real animals.
     I'm
     > > starting to think this whole thing is a distraction from those
     > > pieces
     > > of garbage. What do you think people? Don't forget EPSTEIN and
     > > MAXWELL
     > > should continue to be the focus until that thing is actually
     > > resolved.
     > >
     > > @ Deb Nicholson, I have a number of questions above, if you
     insist
     > > on
     > > your assertion, then provide what I've requested please.
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 09:13 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
     > > > The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from
     real
     > > women
     > > > who
     > > > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed
     by
     > > > sexist
     > > > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
     > > *finally* be
     > > > heard.
     > >

References

   1. mailto:overthefalls@opengroupware.ch
   2. https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
   3. https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88
   4. https://mjg59.livejournal.com/113408.html
   5. mailto:overthefalls@opengroupware.ch

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Moving Forward

['smee via libreplanet-discuss]

I also have better things to do than continue a discussion which you
have decided to vacate. I considered your points and requested
reasonable proof, which I've seen no mention of aside from your email. 

I'll assume, based on your response, that the links you provided (since
you are vacating the conversation) would not suffice to support what I
understand is your claim. 


On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 12:14 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:03 PM 'smee <overthefalls@opengroupware.ch
> > wrote:
> > Please answer my other questions if you insist there are real
> > people
> > who have had a bad experience with a particular project because of
> > their sex or sexual orientation. Specifics shouldn't be hard to
> > come up
> > with given the strength of your assertion. Please give specifics.
> > Or
> > address any one of my other points instead of setting up a strawman
> > and
> >  knocking it down.
> 
> We've been talking about this topic for a week and many, many links
> have been provided. But once again, here are some links to specifics.
> 
> https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
> https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e
> 784f88
> https://mjg59.livejournal.com/113408.html
> 
> Because of the antagonistic nature of this thread, I will not add the
> dozens of experiences that have been related to me personally. I'm
> also not interested in discussing the specifics of each of these
> events with you. If a mountain of evidence hasn't convinced you that
> a pattern of behavior exists, then there's nothing I could say to
> change your mind and I have more important things to do today. 
> 
> Best, 
> Deb
> 
> > On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:55 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:46 AM 'smee <overthefalls@opengroupwar
> > e.ch
> > > > wrote:
> > > > Quote from you:
> > > > "The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from
> > real
> > > > women
> > > > who
> > > > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
> > > > sexist
> > > > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
> > *finally*
> > > > be
> > > > heard."
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Please give examples giving details of how these people were
> > > > 'rebuffed'. What exactly were they trying to do when they were
> > > > rebuffed? 
> > > > 
> > > > Serious question. Were they submitting code? Were they doing QA
> > > > work?
> > > > Which project rebuffed them and what was the reason given?
> > > > 
> > > > I think most projects (especially those conscientious enough to
> > be
> > > > in
> > > > the free software movement) would be happy to have
> > contributions
> > > > from
> > > > anyone and don't go out of their way to even find out the sex
> > of
> > > > contributors, much less 'rebuff' them for being a particular
> > sex.
> > > > And, the funny thing is, these contributors could fork the
> > code,
> > > > call
> > > > out the sexism, and basically take over the code of any project
> > > > they
> > > > were interested in. Anyone in free software knows this, it
> > gives a
> > > > peaceful solution to these type of situations. 
> > > > 
> > > > Why attack the FSF and RMS? 
> > > 
> > > I have not attacked the FSF. 
> > >  
> > > > Epstein is the horrible piece of trash (as well as all of his
> > > > associates) that committed the worst atrocities we've heard of
> > > > recently
> > > > against women. 
> > > > 
> > > > Let's not take attention away from that fact or the fact that
> > he is
> > > > likely still alive, and that Ghislaine Maxwell is still free
> > and,
> > > > seemingly won't ever be charged or even approached about this.
> > She
> > > > is
> > > > trash and shouldn't be allowed to show her face anywhere in the
> > > > world
> > > > again for being his accomplice. 
> > > > 
> > > > Let's keep the spotlight where it belongs (epstein, maxwell,
> > > > everyone
> > > > including judges and politicians who helped him) when it comes
> > to
> > > > all
> > > > the things you're accusing RMS of. Those are the real animals.
> > I'm
> > > > starting to think this whole thing is a distraction from those
> > > > pieces
> > > > of garbage. What do you think people? Don't forget EPSTEIN and
> > > > MAXWELL
> > > > should continue to be the focus until that thing is actually
> > > > resolved. 
> > > > 
> > > > @ Deb Nicholson, I have a number of questions above, if you
> > insist
> > > > on
> > > > your assertion, then provide what I've requested please.  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 09:13 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> > > > > The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from
> > real
> > > > women
> > > > > who
> > > > > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed
> > by
> > > > > sexist
> > > > > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
> > > > *finally* be
> > > > > heard.
> > > > 
> > 

_______________________________________________
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Re: Moving Forward

[MARY-ANNE WOLF]

I have no way to confirm the accuracy of the accusations, or any missing context, 
but here are some sources of specifics in random order
https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/EMACS_virgins_joke
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3087673
https://fossforce.com/2019/09/yesterdays-man-the-fall-of-richard-stallman/
https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994356331749429248
https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8yqj6/stallman_continues_to_embarrass_us_all/

Mary-Anne


> On September 24, 2019 at 12:03 PM 'smee via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Please answer my other questions if you insist there are real people
> who have had a bad experience with a particular project because of
> their sex or sexual orientation. Specifics shouldn't be hard to come up
> with given the strength of your assertion. Please give specifics. Or
> address any one of my other points instead of setting up a strawman and
>  knocking it down.
> 
> On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 11:55 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:46 AM 'smee <overthefalls@opengroupware.ch
> > > wrote:
> > > Quote from you:
> > > "The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
> > > women
> > > who
> > > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
> > > sexist
> > > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might *finally*
> > > be
> > > heard."
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Please give examples giving details of how these people were
> > > 'rebuffed'. What exactly were they trying to do when they were
> > > rebuffed? 
> > > 
> > > Serious question. Were they submitting code? Were they doing QA
> > > work?
> > > Which project rebuffed them and what was the reason given?
> > > 
> > > I think most projects (especially those conscientious enough to be
> > > in
> > > the free software movement) would be happy to have contributions
> > > from
> > > anyone and don't go out of their way to even find out the sex of
> > > contributors, much less 'rebuff' them for being a particular sex.
> > > And, the funny thing is, these contributors could fork the code,
> > > call
> > > out the sexism, and basically take over the code of any project
> > > they
> > > were interested in. Anyone in free software knows this, it gives a
> > > peaceful solution to these type of situations. 
> > > 
> > > Why attack the FSF and RMS? 
> > 
> > I have not attacked the FSF. 
> >  
> > > Epstein is the horrible piece of trash (as well as all of his
> > > associates) that committed the worst atrocities we've heard of
> > > recently
> > > against women. 
> > > 
> > > Let's not take attention away from that fact or the fact that he is
> > > likely still alive, and that Ghislaine Maxwell is still free and,
> > > seemingly won't ever be charged or even approached about this. She
> > > is
> > > trash and shouldn't be allowed to show her face anywhere in the
> > > world
> > > again for being his accomplice. 
> > > 
> > > Let's keep the spotlight where it belongs (epstein, maxwell,
> > > everyone
> > > including judges and politicians who helped him) when it comes to
> > > all
> > > the things you're accusing RMS of. Those are the real animals. I'm
> > > starting to think this whole thing is a distraction from those
> > > pieces
> > > of garbage. What do you think people? Don't forget EPSTEIN and
> > > MAXWELL
> > > should continue to be the focus until that thing is actually
> > > resolved. 
> > > 
> > > @ Deb Nicholson, I have a number of questions above, if you insist
> > > on
> > > your assertion, then provide what I've requested please.  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 09:13 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> > > > The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
> > > women
> > > > who
> > > > have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
> > > > sexist
> > > > behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
> > > *finally* be
> > > > heard.
> > > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

_______________________________________________
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Re: Moving Forward

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Hi Deb,

On 24/09/2019 10:13, Deb Nicholson wrote:

>    It also brought to the center of the conversation, many of the other
>    times that women have been belittled, written off or subjected to
>    harassment here in free software.

I have read a lot of people celebrating Stallman resignation.

My feeling is the "Epstein-Minsky-MIT" debate was, as we say in
portuguese "a gota d'água" (something like "last drop of water in the
bucket"). And a lot of people from free software community decided not
deal with this kind of behavior anymore.

Am I right?

Best regards,

-- 
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Curitiba - Brasil
Debian Developer
Diretor do Instituto para Conservação de Tecnologias Livres
Site: http://www.phls.com.br
GNU/Linux user: 228719  GPG ID: 0443C450



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Re: Moving Forward

[Deb Nicholson]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1483 bytes --]

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 11:08 AM Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana <
paulo@phls.com.br> wrote:

> Hi Deb,
>
> On 24/09/2019 10:13, Deb Nicholson wrote:
>
> >    It also brought to the center of the conversation, many of the other
> >    times that women have been belittled, written off or subjected to
> >    harassment here in free software.
>
> I have read a lot of people celebrating Stallman resignation.
>
> My feeling is the "Epstein-Minsky-MIT" debate was, as we say in
> portuguese "a gota d'água" (something like "last drop of water in the
> bucket"). And a lot of people from free software community decided not
> deal with this kind of behavior anymore.
>
> Am I right?
>

That's definitely what I think is happening. It's confusing that the poorly
written piece basically went viral, but there's been a pattern of
problematic behavior. You (and others) may find this piece interesting,
https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84

Best,
Deb


>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
> Curitiba - Brasil
> Debian Developer
> Diretor do Instituto para Conservação de Tecnologias Livres
> Site: http://www.phls.com.br
> GNU/Linux user: 228719  GPG ID: 0443C450
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 1840 bytes --]

   On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 11:08 AM Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana
   <[1]paulo@phls.com.br> wrote:

     Hi Deb,
     On 24/09/2019 10:13, Deb Nicholson wrote:
     >    It also brought to the center of the conversation, many of the
     other
     >    times that women have been belittled, written off or subjected
     to
     >    harassment here in free software.
     I have read a lot of people celebrating Stallman resignation.
     My feeling is the "Epstein-Minsky-MIT" debate was, as we say in
     portuguese "a gota d'água" (something like "last drop of water in
     the
     bucket"). And a lot of people from free software community decided
     not
     deal with this kind of behavior anymore.
     Am I right?

   That's definitely what I think is happening. It's confusing that the
   poorly written piece basically went viral, but there's been a pattern
   of problematic behavior. You (and others) may find this piece
   interesting,
   [2]https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of
   -rms-18e6a835fd84
   Best,
   Deb

     Best regards,
     --
     Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
     Curitiba - Brasil
     Debian Developer
     Diretor do Instituto para Conservação de Tecnologias Livres
     Site: [3]http://www.phls.com.br
     GNU/Linux user: 228719  GPG ID: 0443C450
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s

References

   1. mailto:paulo@phls.com.br
   2. https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84
   3. http://www.phls.com.br/
   4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: Moving Forward

[D. Joe Anderson]

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 12:01:42PM -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote:
>  On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 11:08 AM Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana <paulo@phls.com.br> wrote:
> 
>  Hi Deb,
>  On 24/09/2019 10:13, Deb Nicholson wrote:
>  > It also brought to the center of the conversation, many of the other
>  > times that women have been belittled, written off or subjected to
>  > harassment here in free software.

>  I have read a lot of people celebrating Stallman resignation.
>  My feeling is the "Epstein-Minsky-MIT" debate was, as we say in
>  portuguese "a gota d'água" (something like "last drop of water in the
>  bucket"). And a lot of people from free software community decided not
>  deal with this kind of behavior anymore.
>  Am I right?
>
>   That's definitely what I think is happening.

I think so too. Some common ways of describing this sort of thing in English that come to mind are "watershed moment," "tipping point," and one I've encountered several times about this situation already "the straw that broke the camel's back" often just "the last straw".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping_point 

thinking back to my high school science classes, I often think of these sorts of moments as a "phase change" too.
 
also ... 

>   It's confusing that the poorly written piece basically went viral, but there's been a pattern
>   of problematic behavior. You (and others) may find this piece
>   interesting,
>   https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84

Yes, I did find that a better take than so much of the poorly-done reporting. 

Thanks for bringing it to these discussions

As for articles, another I've found unstinting even while maintaining some sympathy, has been

https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of-the-clueless-nerd/

Levy establishes his bona fides early in the piece, for those unfamiliar with his work and with his connection to hacker history.

For those who *are* more familiar with his work, but haven't seen this link yet

http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/programming-forgetting-new-hacker-ethic/

please consider it. It's been making the rounds beyond the confines of this mailing list. It's one of the things I've found it helpful in improving and broadening my own understanding of the ethical challenges we face with regard to inclusion in the free software movement.

There are, as has been noted, many other resources out there for those with a good-faith interest in understanding better what has brought us to this point and how we might (as the Subject: indicates!) move forward in a way that makes the quest for "user freedom" include all users.



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Re: Moving Forward

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

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On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 9:11 AM Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com>
wrote:


>    The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real women
>    who have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed by
>    sexist behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
>    *finally* be heard.
>

I must tell you that I wrote GNU C-Graph at rms' suggestion. I had just
written the solutions to an entire book in C followed by my software
package "NAILS" in Lisp. RMS saw my passion for electrical engineering,
computer science and my complete immersion in writing code to represent
concepts in artificial intelligence and engineering mathematics. He has
always treated me as an equal.

Hackers are inseparable from their humour. It is part of the hacker mindset
that makes us tick. RMS is no more sexist that any other man I know -
especially in engineering and computer science where sexism abounds. I call
out sexism when I see it's necessary. The notion that rms is a misogynist,
as claimed by others, is false.

How can one person's desire to write code be rebuffed by another's
behaviour, sexist or otherwise?

Time will show that it was a much, much more than a major "gaffe" by the
FSF to call for his resignation based on a lie. There is a price to be paid
for this mercenary attack on Free Software and its architect - purportedly
executed in the name of "diversity".

Adrienne
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

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   On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 9:11 AM Deb Nicholson
   <[1]deb@eximiousproductions.com> wrote:

        The outrage (and demand for new leadership) is coming from real
     women
        who have tried to participate in free software and been rebuffed
     by
        sexist behavior who felt that perhaps at this moment they might
        *finally* be heard.

   I must tell you that I wrote GNU C-Graph at rms' suggestion. I had just
   written the solutions to an entire book in C followed by my software
   package "NAILS" in Lisp. RMS saw my passion for electrical engineering,
   computer science and my complete immersion in writing code to represent
   concepts in artificial intelligence and engineering mathematics. He has
   always treated me as an equal.
   Hackers are inseparable from their humour. It is part of the hacker
   mindset that makes us tick. RMS is no more sexist that any other man I
   know - especially in engineering and computer science where sexism
   abounds. I call out sexism when I see it's necessary. The notion that
   rms is a misogynist, as claimed by others, is false.
   How can one person's desire to write code be rebuffed by another's
   behaviour, sexist or otherwise?
   Time will show that it was a much, much more than a major "gaffe" by
   the FSF to call for his resignation based on a lie. There is a price to
   be paid for this mercenary attack on Free Software and its architect -
   purportedly executed in the name of "diversity".
   Adrienne
   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
   2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   3. http://codeartnow.com/
   4. http://www.abertheid.info/

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Re: “I don't answer questions from women”

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

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"A. Mani" <a.mani.cms@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf <wolftune@riseup.net> wrote:
>> On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
>>> In one keynote, RMS's response to a question was "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."  Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in RMS's blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
>>
>> That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But taking it at pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
>
> That talk was terribly bad: https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889

Given how she contrived to paraphrase the ‘Holy Virgin of Emacs’ jest two messages below [0]: “This was about five minutes before he declared that it was the sacred duty of all male fans of emacs in the audience to take the virginity of women. On stage during the keynote” I would not take seriously even a word of that woman.  She seems to be of that kind who listens to a human, but hears voices in her head.

What are your reasons to believe her?

(For those who unfamiliar with St. Ignucius sketch, the relevant part before feminists compel Dr. Stallman to censor himself might read as: “And we also have the cult of the virgin of Emacs.  The virgin of Emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use Emacs.  And in the church of Emacs we believe that taking her Emacs virginity away is a blessed act” [1].  Feel the difference.)

> Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.

Hmm...  Maybe it is not stated there, elsewhere and anywhere besides a microblog of some RMS-hater [2] because this is just another piece of libel?

[0] https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174044476022636546
[1] https://youtu.be/25ejlP0uWeI
[2] “Finally, FINALLY, people put enough pressure for the @fsf to get rid of Richard Stallman.  It would have been awesome if all the decades of him being the absolute worst would have been reason enough to get rid of him before, but hey, at least it happened in my lifetime.”
    — https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174030740037754882

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Re: “I don't answer questions from women”

[A. Mani]

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 3:05 AM Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> wrote:
> > That talk was terribly bad: https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
>
> Given how she contrived to paraphrase the ‘Holy Virgin of Emacs’ jest two messages below [0]: “This was about five minutes before he declared that it was the sacred duty of all male fans of emacs in the audience to take the virginity of women. On stage during the keynote” I would not take seriously even a word of that woman.  She seems to be of that kind who listens to a human, but hears voices in her head.
>
> What are your reasons to believe her?
>
> (For those who unfamiliar with St. Ignucius sketch, the relevant part before feminists compel Dr. Stallman to censor himself might read as: “And we also have the cult of the virgin of Emacs.  The virgin of Emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use Emacs.  And in the church of Emacs we believe that taking her Emacs virginity away is a blessed act” [1].  Feel the difference.)
>

This reference to patriarchal concepts of 'virginity' is offensive by
default. It is a concept that was developed to subjugate women,
promote racism, and other divisive practices. The explanation offered
by RMS on the Gnome list (after some debate) hardly helps.

For basic applied feminism (intersectional):
https://everydayfeminism.com/?s=virginity

That kind of analogy only contributes to reinforce patriarchal values.
Therefore, she is on solid ground.


> > Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
>
> Hmm...  Maybe it is not stated there, elsewhere and anywhere besides a microblog of some RMS-hater [2] because this is just another piece of libel?
>
> [0] https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174044476022636546
> [1] https://youtu.be/25ejlP0uWeI
> [2] “Finally, FINALLY, people put enough pressure for the @fsf to get rid of Richard Stallman.  It would have been awesome if all the decades of him being the absolute worst would have been reason enough to get rid of him before, but hey, at least it happened in my lifetime.”
>     — https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174030740037754882

No, her point is fine.

Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net

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Re: “I don't answer questions from women”

[Aaron Wolf]

These issues aren't either/or, they are both.

The "virginity" joke is undeniably tied to patriarchy and sexism, and
people who are sensitive to those issues are predictably going to have a
negative reaction. This is indeed part of the long pattern of
uncomfortable issues.

That said, there's still a wide range of interpretations once we go into
judging intentions and values behind the situations.

A charitable (and I believe accurate) interpretation is that RMS was
primarily focused on a mockery of religion, particularly Christian
religion, and the "virgin" reference is based on that first and
foremost. The other metaphor of "losing virginity" by using emacs could
be plainly taken literally as a suggestion of experiencing emacs rather
than anything sexual. However, it's also *clearly* a wink-wink sort of
sexual joke that would get laughs among all-male sexist tech culture and
be found offensive by feminists and uncomfortable to women in general.

It would be *too* much of a stretch to pretend that there's *no* sexual
reference. There's no honest way to make that argument.

But claiming bluntly that RMS was saying to his fans that taking women's
virginity was great — that is an unfair characterization. If that were
stated with the one qualifier that it was part of a religious joke, it
could be more fair. It's offensive enough as a joke, but it certainly
comes across as far more grotesque if it were just a plain statement.

So it's both: RMS' joke is not in good taste, turned people away, caused
offense, and this is especially a problem in a male-dominated cultural
context. It's also true that the Twitter poster went beyond what's fair
in how it was characterized.

People can be on the right side of things in terms of what they are
criticizing and still be guilty of arguing carelessly or in bad faith.

On 2019-09-24 8:58 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 3:05 AM Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That talk was terribly bad: https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
>>
>> Given how she contrived to paraphrase the ‘Holy Virgin of Emacs’ jest two messages below [0]: “This was about five minutes before he declared that it was the sacred duty of all male fans of emacs in the audience to take the virginity of women. On stage during the keynote” I would not take seriously even a word of that woman.  She seems to be of that kind who listens to a human, but hears voices in her head.
>>
>> What are your reasons to believe her?
>>
>> (For those who unfamiliar with St. Ignucius sketch, the relevant part before feminists compel Dr. Stallman to censor himself might read as: “And we also have the cult of the virgin of Emacs.  The virgin of Emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use Emacs.  And in the church of Emacs we believe that taking her Emacs virginity away is a blessed act” [1].  Feel the difference.)
>>
> 
> This reference to patriarchal concepts of 'virginity' is offensive by
> default. It is a concept that was developed to subjugate women,
> promote racism, and other divisive practices. The explanation offered
> by RMS on the Gnome list (after some debate) hardly helps.
> 
> For basic applied feminism (intersectional):
> https://everydayfeminism.com/?s=virginity
> 
> That kind of analogy only contributes to reinforce patriarchal values.
> Therefore, she is on solid ground.
> 
> 
>>> Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
>>
>> Hmm...  Maybe it is not stated there, elsewhere and anywhere besides a microblog of some RMS-hater [2] because this is just another piece of libel?
>>
>> [0] https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174044476022636546
>> [1] https://youtu.be/25ejlP0uWeI
>> [2] “Finally, FINALLY, people put enough pressure for the @fsf to get rid of Richard Stallman.  It would have been awesome if all the decades of him being the absolute worst would have been reason enough to get rid of him before, but hey, at least it happened in my lifetime.”
>>     — https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174030740037754882
> 
> No, her point is fine.
> 
> Best
> 
> A Mani
> 
> Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
> CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
> Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
> Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
> Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
> Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
> sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
> 


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Re: “I don't answer questions from women”

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

A. Mani, 25/09/19 06:58:
> For basic applied feminism (intersectional):
> https://everydayfeminism.com/?s=virginity

Where the first article is about male virginity:
<https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/10/problem-male-virginity/>

Federico

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Re: “I don't answer questions from women”

[A. Mani]

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 11:31 AM Federico Leva (Nemo)
<nemowiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> > For basic applied feminism (intersectional):
> > https://everydayfeminism.com/?s=virginity
>
> Where the first article is about male virginity:
> <https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/10/problem-male-virginity/>

That is due to some search algorithm ....check the code if possible.
They try to address issues concerning all genders.

Whatever, I hope FSF builds a truly robust diversity, and inclusion
policy, a code of conduct, and a sexual harassment policy and keeps
links to them in the footer of the front page


Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net

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Re: “I don't answer questions from women”

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

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"A. Mani" <a.mani.cms@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 3:05 AM Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf <wolftune@riseup.net> wrote:
>>> "A. Mani" <a.mani.cms@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
>>>>> In one keynote, RMS's response to a question was "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
>>>>
>>>> That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But taking it at pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
>>>
>>> That talk was terribly bad: https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
>>
>> Given how she contrived to paraphrase the ‘Holy Virgin of Emacs’ jest two messages below [0]: “This was about five minutes before he declared that it was the sacred duty of all male fans of emacs in the audience to take the virginity of women. On stage during the keynote” I would not take seriously even a word of that woman.  She seems to be of that kind who listens to a human, but hears voices in her head.
>>
>> What are your reasons to believe her?
>>
>> (For those who unfamiliar with St. Ignucius sketch, the relevant part before feminists compel Dr. Stallman to censor himself might read as: “And we also have the cult of the virgin of Emacs.  The virgin of Emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use Emacs.  And in the church of Emacs we believe that taking her Emacs virginity away is a blessed act” [1].  Feel the difference.)
>>
>
> This reference to patriarchal concepts of 'virginity' is…

> For basic applied feminism (intersectional):

Whatever it is.  My letter was not to discuss the concepts of virginity within intersectional applied feminism, but remind why we need to be more sceptical while spreading rumours heard on Twitter.  And even more sceptical, when they are of defamatory nature.

>>> Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
>>
>> Hmm...  Maybe it is not stated there, elsewhere and anywhere besides a microblog of some RMS-hater [2] because this is just another piece of libel?
>
> No, her point is fine.

Sorry, what point?  Andreia Gaita was not presenting any point, she presented _an evidence_, that once upon a time Richard Stallman replied to a some mysterious question of her: “Oh wait you’re a woman!  I don’t answer questions from women”.

You repeated this anecdotal evidence as a fact.

Aaron Wolf point was: she most probably missed the context.  (Which she feels uncomfortable to provide [1]).

My point was: she most probably simply lied, just as she did while retelling the St. Ignucius routine, and RMS never said _that_ to her.

[1] https://mobile.twitter.com/ArneBab/status/1174436677726736385

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Re: “I don't answer questions from women”

[A. Mani]

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 6:57 PM Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> wrote:
> > For basic applied feminism (intersectional):
>
> Whatever it is.  My letter was not to discuss the concepts of virginity within intersectional applied feminism, but remind why we need to be more sceptical while spreading rumours heard on Twitter.  And even more sceptical, when they are of defamatory nature.
>

> > No, her point is fine.
>
> Sorry, what point?  Andreia Gaita was not presenting any point, she presented _an evidence_, that once upon a time Richard Stallman replied to a some mysterious question of her: “Oh wait you’re a woman!  I don’t answer questions from women”.
>
> You repeated this anecdotal evidence as a fact.
>
> Aaron Wolf point was: she most probably missed the context.  (Which she feels uncomfortable to provide [1]).
>
> My point was: she most probably simply lied, just as she did while retelling the St. Ignucius routine, and RMS never said _that_ to her.
>
> [1] https://mobile.twitter.com/ArneBab/status/1174436677726736385

Given the other well-known 'GIRL' comment on lefty's blog, she is
fully believable. Why does not RMS say something?
My point was that irrespective of whether she lied or not about the
statement, the routine in question is offensive, sexist and
triggering. The patriarchal concept of 'virgin' is routinely used by
religious people to shame, silence and abuse women. The old
geekfeminism wikia page on RMS has enough details.

https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/EMACS_virgins_joke
https://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/07/emailing-richard-stallman.html?showComment=1247268813706#c2710654169843897013


Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net

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Re: Moving Forward

[Félicien Pillot]

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Matt Ivie <m0dese7en@mykolab.com> writes:
> There are some things in this situation that are not totally clear to
> me:
>
> 1) Is RMS still going to have any kind of interaction with the FSF? 
>
> 2) I am unclear as to the motivation for his resignation. I'd like to
> know if he voluntarily resigned or if he was urged or forced to
> "voluntarily" resign?
>
> 2a) Did RMS, or the FSF board have him resign to do some damage control
> and create distance between himself and the FSF or did he resign due to
> demand of the board and others within the FSF because they wanted him
> gone, as has been theorized?
>
> Having a clear understanding of these motivations can be helpful in
> trying to sort out where we need to go next.

It's funny, I asked RMS privately almost the same questions (the 2nd
before the 1st)

He told me he wanted to spread his words and make them understood, so I
think he won't mind if I directly quote him here:

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > * Did you make the decision alone, or were you encouraged by the FSF
>   >   Board of Directors?
>
> Yes, but I agreed it was necessary.
>
>   > * Will you continue to work for the GNU Project (...)?
>
> I do not intend to step down as the Chief GNUisance.
> I have not finished campaigning for free software!
-- 
Félicien Pillot
2C7C ACC0 FBDB ADBA E7BC  50D9 043C D143 6C87 9372
felicien@gnu.org - felicien.pillot@riseup.net

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Re: Moving Forward

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

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On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:36 AM Félicien Pillot <felicien@gnu.org> wrote:

> > 2) I am unclear as to the motivation for his resignation. I'd like to
> > know if he voluntarily resigned or if he was urged or forced to
> > "voluntarily" resign?
>

Look up the definition of "constructive dismissal". RMS was subjected to
undue pressure, psychological attacks, and coercion to force his
resignation. The law requires an "employee" status, but the situation with
the FSF is analogous. Subversive elements on the board of the FSF have been
in play for some time.

Adrienne

-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

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   On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:36 AM Félicien Pillot <[1]felicien@gnu.org>
   wrote:

     > 2) I am unclear as to the motivation for his resignation. I'd like
     to
     > know if he voluntarily resigned or if he was urged or forced to
     > "voluntarily" resign?

   Look up the definition of "constructive dismissal". RMS was subjected
   to undue pressure, psychological attacks, and coercion to force his
   resignation. The law requires an "employee" status, but the situation
   with the FSF is analogous. Subversive elements on the board of the FSF
   have been in play for some time.

   Adrienne
   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. mailto:felicien@gnu.org
   2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   3. http://codeartnow.com/
   4. http://www.abertheid.info/

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Re: Moving Forward

[Matt Ivie]

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On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 08:33 +0200, Félicien Pillot wrote:
> Matt Ivie <m0dese7en@mykolab.com> writes:
> > There are some things in this situation that are not totally clear
> > to
> > me:
> > 
> > 1) Is RMS still going to have any kind of interaction with the
> > FSF? 
> > 
> > 2) I am unclear as to the motivation for his resignation. I'd like
> > to
> > know if he voluntarily resigned or if he was urged or forced to
> > "voluntarily" resign?
> > 
> > 2a) Did RMS, or the FSF board have him resign to do some damage
> > control
> > and create distance between himself and the FSF or did he resign
> > due to
> > demand of the board and others within the FSF because they wanted
> > him
> > gone, as has been theorized?
> > 
> > Having a clear understanding of these motivations can be helpful in
> > trying to sort out where we need to go next.
> 
> It's funny, I asked RMS privately almost the same questions (the 2nd
> before the 1st)
> 
> He told me he wanted to spread his words and make them understood, so
> I
> think he won't mind if I directly quote him here:
> 
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please
> > consider    ]]]
> > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all
> > enemies,     ]]]
> > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example.
> > ]]]
> > 
> >   > * Did you make the decision alone, or were you encouraged by
> > the FSF
> >   >   Board of Directors?
> > 
> > Yes, but I agreed it was necessary.
> > 
> >   > * Will you continue to work for the GNU Project (...)?
> > 
> > I do not intend to step down as the Chief GNUisance.
> > I have not finished campaigning for free software!

Thanks for passing that along.

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Re: Moving Forward

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

For context:
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2009-November/msg00010.html
https://stallman.org/saint.html

If you never saw the saint IGNUcius routine in person, there are some 
recordings around.
https://archive.org/details/RMS_at_UPD_2015_St_IGNUcius

I used to belong to the Roman Catholic church and I'm an atheist; people 
with different experience may need more context and I can't speak for  them.

Federico

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