From: Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com>
To: Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com>
Cc: Aaron Wolf <wolftune@riseup.net>,
Matt Ivie <m0dese7en@mykolab.com>,
libreplanet-discuss
<libreplanet-discuss-bounces+lord=basiscraft.com@libreplanet.org>,
Libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
Subject: Re: Moving Forward
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:27:49 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <4f5f0ab6ff3f328dfaed237f6cc12554@basiscraft.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAE3dWx-HQaRZQJTabP-9=NKT4cm2j1nm12jOQmZju6bAnb3CfA@mail.gmail.com>
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4400 bytes --]
> Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
When people launch a press campaign to lie about you and defame you on
the basis of a libel, that is not your "gaff". No reasonable person
could have published any of the widely read attacks. They are
intellectually and socially dishonest, objectively, and to the core.
-t
On 2019-09-23 19:09, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 8:36 PM A. Mani <[1]a.mani.cms@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf <[2]wolftune@riseup.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
>> >
>> > The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger
> problem
>> > is the number of reports on
>> > RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
>> > accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before even
> within
>> > the free software community before -- at most people invoked
> various
>> > disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's
> response to
>> > a question was
>> > "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
>> > Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in
> RMS's
>> > blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
>> >
>>
>> Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're
> describing is
>> more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a particularly
>> male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist
> society.
>> Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty
> parsimonious
>> explanation for RMS' behavior.
>>
> OK
>
> Yes, and a freedom movement -- a movement that seeks to empower people
> -- ought to be held to a higher standard. What is the point of building
> a better world that carefully maintains all of the sexism of mainstream
> (proprietary) software communities? The FSF is incorporated as a
> charity with a mission that definitely does not include "upholding or
> exceeding mainstream tech's sexism."
>
>> The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems
> inaccurate
>> to me from all I've seen of his stated views.
>>
> Sexism leads to dismissal of feminist viewpoints
>
> +1
>
>> That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
>> assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
>> encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But taking
> it at
>> pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
> That talk was terribly bad:
> [3]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
> "Oh he was called out on it, for decades. There are many blog posts
> and mailing list threads calling him out on this particular incident
> and all the others. He never gave a shit about any of it, neither
> did
> his followers or the @fsf or the orgs inviting him to speak."
> Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
>
> Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
> merely brought to light what has been happening within the free
> software movement for years. We can't reasonably expect people to
> believe we are building a better, freer world without a strong
> commitment to an inclusive movement and that means we can't keep
> enabling and encouraging sexist behavior.
> Best,
> Deb
>
> Best
> A Mani
> Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
> CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
> Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
> Homepage: [4]http://www.logicamani.in
> Blog: [5]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
> Research Gate: [6]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
> [7]sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
> s
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
> 3. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
> 4. http://www.logicamani.in/
> 5. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
> 6. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
> 7. mailto:sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
> 8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> 9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 5967 bytes --]
> Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
When people launch a press campaign to lie about you and defame you on
the basis of a libel, that is not your "gaff". No reasonable person
could have published any of the widely read attacks. They are
intellectually and socially dishonest, objectively, and to the core.
-t
On 2019-09-23 19:09, Deb Nicholson wrote:
On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 8:36 PM A. Mani <[1][1]a.mani.cms@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:36 AM Aaron Wolf
<[2][2]wolftune@riseup.net>
wrote:
>
> On 2019-09-23 4:39 p.m., A. Mani wrote:
> >
> > The misinterpretation part is hardly the problem. The bigger
problem
> > is the number of reports on
> > RMS's misogyny, anti-feminist position and doings that have
> > accumulated over time. These were not so well-known before
even
within
> > the free software community before -- at most people invoked
various
> > disorders to explain RMS's behavior. In one keynote, RMS's
response to
> > a question was
> > "Oh wait you're a woman! I don't answer questions from women."
> > Furthermore there are ill-informed statements on feminism in
RMS's
> > blog -- they mean RMS is still a slave of the patriarchy.
> >
>
> Apologies for language pickiness, but I think what you're
describing is
> more like sexism than misogyny. RMS is a product of a
particularly
> male-dominated sexist tech culture within an overall sexist
society.
> Combine that with social awkwardness, and that's a pretty
parsimonious
> explanation for RMS' behavior.
>
OK
Yes, and a freedom movement -- a movement that seeks to empower
people
-- ought to be held to a higher standard. What is the point of
building
a better world that carefully maintains all of the sexism of
mainstream
(proprietary) software communities? The FSF is incorporated as a
charity with a mission that definitely does not include "upholding
or
exceeding mainstream tech's sexism."
> The claim that he holds overall anti-feminist positions seems
inaccurate
> to me from all I've seen of his stated views.
>
Sexism leads to dismissal of feminist viewpoints
+1
> That question response quote is so extreme, the most reasonable
> assumption is that it was said as a facetious joke. I have never
> encountered that anecdote before, so I have no context. But
taking
it at
> pure face value makes no sense to me whatsoever.
That talk was terribly bad:
[3][3]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
"Oh he was called out on it, for decades. There are many blog
posts
and mailing list threads calling him out on this particular
incident
and all the others. He never gave a shit about any of it, neither
did
his followers or the @fsf or the orgs inviting him to speak."
Strangely this was not stated on Linuxchix website and elsewhere.
Thank you for raising this. The recent (admittedly misreported) gaff
merely brought to light what has been happening within the free
software movement for years. We can't reasonably expect people to
believe we are building a better, freer world without a strong
commitment to an inclusive movement and that means we can't keep
enabling and encouraging sexist behavior.
Best,
Deb
Best
A Mani
Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: [4][4]http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: [5][5]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: [6][6]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
[7]sip:[7]girlprofessor@ekiga.net
_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
[8][8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
[9][9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
iscus
s
References
1. mailto:[10]a.mani.cms@gmail.com
2. mailto:[11]wolftune@riseup.net
3. [12]https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
4. [13]http://www.logicamani.in/
5. [14]https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
6. [15]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
7. mailto:sip:[16]girlprofessor@ekiga.net
8. mailto:[17]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
9.
[18]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
[19]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
[20]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
References
1. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
2. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
3. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
4. http://www.logicamani.in/
5. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
6. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
7. mailto:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
10. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
11. mailto:wolftune@riseup.net
12. https://twitter.com/sh4na/status/1174034117077413889
13. http://www.logicamani.in/
14. https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
15. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
16. mailto:girlprofessor@ekiga.net
17. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
18. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
19. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
20. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]
_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-09-24 2:28 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 28+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-09-22 22:20 Moving Forward Matt Ivie
2019-09-23 23:39 ` A. Mani
2019-09-24 0:06 ` Aaron Wolf
2019-09-24 0:35 ` A. Mani
2019-09-24 2:09 ` Deb Nicholson
2019-09-24 2:27 ` Thomas Lord [this message]
2019-09-24 13:13 ` Deb Nicholson
2019-09-24 14:46 ` 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
2019-09-24 15:55 ` Deb Nicholson
2019-09-24 16:03 ` 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
2019-09-24 16:14 ` Deb Nicholson
2019-09-24 16:24 ` 'smee via libreplanet-discuss
2019-09-24 18:42 ` MARY-ANNE WOLF
2019-09-24 14:50 ` Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana
2019-09-24 16:01 ` Deb Nicholson
2019-09-25 11:59 ` D. Joe Anderson
2019-09-24 15:30 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2019-09-24 21:35 ` “I don't answer questions from women” Dmitry Alexandrov
2019-09-25 3:58 ` A. Mani
2019-09-25 4:31 ` Aaron Wolf
2019-09-25 6:01 ` Federico Leva (Nemo)
2019-09-25 9:31 ` A. Mani
2019-09-25 13:27 ` Dmitry Alexandrov
2019-09-25 22:56 ` A. Mani
2019-09-24 6:33 ` Moving Forward Félicien Pillot
2019-09-24 13:18 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2019-09-24 21:32 ` Matt Ivie
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2019-09-24 8:08 Federico Leva (Nemo)
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
List information: https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=4f5f0ab6ff3f328dfaed237f6cc12554@basiscraft.com \
--to=lord@basiscraft.com \
--cc=deb@eximiousproductions.com \
--cc=libreplanet-discuss-bounces+lord=basiscraft.com@libreplanet.org \
--cc=libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org \
--cc=m0dese7en@mykolab.com \
--cc=wolftune@riseup.net \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).