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From: "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" <avarab@gmail.com>
To: Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>
Cc: Jeff King <peff@peff.net>,
	git@vger.kernel.org, Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>,
	Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>,
	Don Goodman-Wilson <don@goodman-wilson.com>,
	"brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>,
	Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC/PATCH] tests: support testing with an arbitrary default branch (sort of)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:32:25 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87ima2rdsm.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <nycvar.QRO.7.76.6.2011162118060.18437@tvgsbejvaqbjf.bet>


On Mon, Nov 16 2020, Johannes Schindelin wrote:

> Hi Ævar,
>
> On Sat, 14 Nov 2020, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 13 2020, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
>>
>> > Whatever telemetry I would be able to pull would not be representative,
>> > and I would not be at liberty to share it anyway. So I asked Alex Mullans
>> > of GitHub (who is in charge of the default branch name switch to `main`
>> > there) whether he has any data I could share publicly and he said: "Across
>> > GitHub, 1/4 of daily pushes (and growing) go to `main`."
>> >
>> > Seeing as the branch name to be used in newly-created repositories on
>> > GitHub changed only very recently (October 1st, i.e. some 6 weeks ago), I
>> > highly suspect that this number means that _a lot_ of existing projects
>> > have changed their primary branch name to `main`, and seem to be quite
>> > happy with it.
>> >
>> > All this is to say that I consider it unnecessary to have a long
>> > deprecation period or major version bump for this patch series, based on
>> > available public data. The name `main` is already in wide-spread use (and
>> > growing) as primary branch name of Git projects.
>>
>> [...]
>> I'm on the fence about what we should do in that case, but I'm leaning
>> towards some deprecation period or at least some other approach than a
>> s/master/main/g change precisely because of the numbers you're citing.
>>
>> Because they shows how irrelevant the default shipped with git.git is to
>> users who want this s/master/main/g change in repositories they
>> regularly use. So we're really mostly talking about an impact to scripts
>> & some advanced users, both of who have a pretty good argument for
>> "init"'s default being what's been explicitly documented for ages in its
>> manpage.
>
> I think you have a good point here. It really does not matter _all_ that
> much, yet I still would like to complete the switch to `main` at some
> stage. But as you point out, that point does not _have_ to be now.
>
> As a consequence, I reconsider my stance on "splitting off patch 28". I
> think I will send out a v2 tomorrow, including the fix you suggested for
> t1400 to also rename `naster` to `nain`, and dropping the patch that
> changes the fall-back for `init.defaultBranch` for now.
>
> I _do_ want to complete the transition to using
> `GIT_TEST_DEFAULT_INIT_BRANCH=main` to address the concern you raised
> elsewhere: a couple of test cases are skipped until that transition is
> complete.
>
> After I send out v2, I will work on that patch that imitates d18c950a69f
> (pull: warn if the user didn't say whether to rebase or to merge,
> 2020-03-09) to show some advice when `init.defaultBranch` is not set.
>
> My current thinking is that we could show this advice for about half a
> year and then make the switch to `main`, continuing to show the advice
> (now adjusted for `main`) for about another half year, and then turn the
> warning off.
>
> What do you think, does that sound too conservative of a plan?

The v2 looks good to me. I just had a suggestion in [1] to apply
something on top to restore the test coverage until while whatever comes
after it lands.

In case I didn't make it clear I have no objection entirely replacing
"master" with "main" in the tests. I just had a practical
concern/question about coverage while it was landing, and a suggestion
of whether perhaps there was an easier/faster way to do the "init"
change first by omitting some of the test churn.

But if you want to do all the legwork that's fine by me :)

I just thought that a sober estimation of how long it takes patches to
land would mean the v1 would be in some in-between state for the next
release.

FWIW I'm not necessarily for some warning. I mainly wanted to attempt to
mediate some of the discussion about the concern to something more
productive.

At the risk of repeating too much of my past overly long E-Mails, but if
I'm being difficult for you when you're submitting patches & causing
work for you I think I owe you an unambiguous explanation for why that
is:

I think some of the people advocating this change can rightly look at
some of the previous E-Mail traffic and see what are at best rants and
at worst some political grandstanding that's at best pretty irrelevant
to any proposed changes in git.git.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't some legitimate concerns. Those
are in my mind separate from the particular political motivations of the
s/master/main/ change, we'd have those with any change to the defaults
in the core tooling.

I think in general with such changes that replies like Theodore Ts'o
here [2] (not picking on him in particular, I just thought it was
representative) reflect a rather insular view of how we need to think
about these sorts of changes.

I.e. a *lot* of git users probably aren't aware that there's even a git
config (they use some 3rd party UI), and I'd say the vast majority are
likely to never find or read any sort of release notes about changes we
make.

Most people's relation to git is like my relation to netcat. It's some
tool I use 1-2 levels down in my stack, and I only bothered to find out
about it because "ssh" stopped working one day.

If at the end of the day we decide to keep something like your original
v1 28/28 patch + docs after some realistic look at the impact that would
be fine by me. Just as long as we understand who we're likely to break
stuff for, and whether it's worth the trade-off.

To Theodore's point about some people's motivations in [2], just to make
my stance/opinion on the end-state clear (so far in all these threads
I've been commenting on the "how" of the incremental transition):

I do 100% agree that the s/master/main/g change of the default should be
made in one form or another. In my mind that doesn't even require a
consideration of the political motivations at this point as far as
git.git is concerned, just:

 1. Major Git hosting providers already made the change

 2. Realistically a lot/majority of git's user base interact with that
    in a major way.

 3. A discrepancy in any default between /usr/bin/git and those
    providers is more confusing than not.

 4. #3 doesn't mean they say "jump" we say "how high" whatever the
    change is.

    But in this case the default is an entirely arbitrary default. Not
    e.g. that they decided to add some ill-thought out header to the
    object format or whatever.

P.S.: Shouldn't the pull patch in d18c950a69f be using the advice
     facility, not warning()?

1. https://public-inbox.org/git/20201118114834.11137-1-avarab@gmail.com/

2. https://public-inbox.org/git/20201115034649.GC3985404@mit.edu/

  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-11-18 13:34 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 163+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-12 22:43 [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 01/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 02/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 03/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 04/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 05/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 06/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 07/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 08/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 09/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 10/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 11/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 12/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 13/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 14/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13 10:02   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:18     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:07     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 15/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 16/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 17/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 18/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 19/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 20/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 21/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 22/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 23/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 24/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 25/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 26/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 27/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 28/28] Change the default branch name to `main` Don Goodman-Wilson via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13  9:57   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:09     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:04       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-13  0:11 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 12:55 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:22   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 16:13     ` [RFC/PATCH] tests: support testing with an arbitrary default branch (sort of) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 19:14       ` Jeff King
2020-11-13 22:00         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 22:39           ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 23:49           ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
     [not found]             ` <nycvar.QRO.7.76.6.2011162118060.18437@tvgsbejvaqbjf.bet>
2020-11-18 13:32               ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason [this message]
2020-11-18 14:16                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-20 11:36                   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-20 16:00                     ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 15:56                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:32                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:35                     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 19:07                       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 10:46                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-14  0:25           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 17:42   ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-14  6:13 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-16 19:52   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 16:10     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 19:09       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 20:58         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 16:12 ` [PATCH v2 00/27] tests: use " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 01/27] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 02/27] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 03/27] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 04/27] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 05/27] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 06/27] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 07/27] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 08/27] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 09/27] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 10/27] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 11/27] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 12/27] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 13/27] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 14/27] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 15/27] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 16/27] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 17/27] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 18/27] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 19/27] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 20/27] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 21/27] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 22/27] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 23/27] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 24/27] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 25/27] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 26/27] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 27/27] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 11:48   ` [PATCH v2 28/27] tests: run tests omitted by PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-18 23:56     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:30       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-20 13:09         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-20 18:08           ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 23:44   ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 01/28] tests: mark tests relying on the current default for `init.defaultBranch` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 02/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 03/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 04/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 05/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 06/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 07/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 08/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 09/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 10/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 11/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 12/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 13/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 14/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 15/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 16/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 17/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 18/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 19/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 20/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 21/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 22/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 23/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 24/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 25/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 26/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 27/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 28/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-19 23:35     ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 20:48 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use " Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-17 22:47   ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 23:33     ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  0:07       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  1:25         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:40           ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:43             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 11:32               ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18 15:43                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:22                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18  0:18       ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  1:22         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  1:45           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  2:06             ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:39               ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18 10:12                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  9:04               ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 22:55   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 23:16     ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  0:10       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  0:51         ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 23:45     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:00       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  0:44           ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:55             ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  1:51       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19 10:35         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 11:10           ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-19 11:50             ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 12:33               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-21 23:01             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 10:21               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 11:20                 ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 13:23                   ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 20:18                     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 21:56                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-22 23:54                   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  2:56   ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:57     ` Junio C Hamano

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AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/public-inbox.git