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From: "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" <avarab@gmail.com>
To: Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>
Cc: Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>,
	Jeff King <peff@peff.net>, Git <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>, Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>,
	Don Goodman-Wilson <don@goodman-wilson.com>,
	"brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>
Subject: Re: [RFC/PATCH] tests: support testing with an arbitrary default branch (sort of)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 12:36:15 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87pn48p8eo.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAMP44s2Uf4tkBdHWFV6e3K3VqCksJxwz52kgWzTBN_SAHnof-w@mail.gmail.com>


On Wed, Nov 18 2020, Felipe Contreras wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 7:32 AM Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
> <avarab@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I do 100% agree that the s/master/main/g change of the default should be
>> made in one form or another. In my mind that doesn't even require a
>> consideration of the political motivations at this point as far as
>> git.git is concerned, just:
>
> Others disagree.

Sure, and I might end up disagreeing with myself once we have the
proposed patches & more people inevitably chime in with some useful data
about the trade-offs, edge cases we haven't considered etc.

> While the political motivation shouldn't be a central concern, I
> suspect the vast majority of users have no idea this change is coming,
> and when they see the warning they will likely complain... Strongly.
> The fact that this change is extremely politically charged will become
> a factor.
>
>>  1. Major Git hosting providers already made the change

[... addressed below ...]

> That's their decision. The Git project shouldn't be held hostage to
> third party decisions.
>
>>  2. Realistically a lot/majority of git's user base interact with that
>>     in a major way.
>>
>>  3. A discrepancy in any default between /usr/bin/git and those
>>     providers is more confusing than not.
>
> That's a problem for GitHub et al. Fortunately they can tell their
> users to set init.defaultbranch to whatever they want.

I think this and what you mention in another thread[1] about GitHub's
instructions for creating a repository takes a narrow view of our
responsibility for creating a sane UI for users.

For example, right after the instructions you note there GitHub's
current instructions are:

    git remote add origin $url
    git branch -M main
    git push -u origin main

Now, put yourself in the shoes of a novice user who's just been
introduced to this "git" thing for a job they started 2 days ago. We
don't take the s/master/main/g change in git.git, GitHub keeps
theirs.

You followed some tutorial or read the manpage to create a local
repository and made a few commits, then to upload it to GitHub or
another provider that uses "main" by default you copy/pasted the above
commands. Now the thing changing from "master" to "main" is one more
thing you're confused by.

That's my motivation for supporting this change. I think most git users
by number are (hopefully) in the future, yes, as you note we'll have
version transitions where that's more confusing than not, but the same
can be said about the dashed command transition.

Whatever mistakes we made in that transition and should learn from a
typical git user in 2020 has never used a dashed builtin, just like a
new user in 2030 probably won't know or have to care about their local
default being different than a $BIG_HOSTING_PROVIDER default.

That *is* our problem, not just a problem for GitHub et al. To claim
otherwise is to just bury our head in the sand.

Are we on balance going to not make the change because e.g. we don't
want various paper books and tutorials to be confusing? Maybe, maybe
not. But just dismissing those concerns by saying e.g. "that's
O'Reilly's problem" would be as nonsensical as us pretending that
perpetuating an (admittedly rather minor) UI difference in perpetuity by
our inaction is purely GitHub's responsibility.

>>  4. #3 doesn't mean they say "jump" we say "how high" whatever the
>>     change is.
>>
>>     But in this case the default is an entirely arbitrary default. Not
>>     e.g. that they decided to add some ill-thought out header to the
>>     object format or whatever.
>
> I don't agree it is arbitrary, otherwise you could set the default to
> "loremipsum". Moreover, even if was arbitrary, it was arbitrary in
> 2005, not 2020 where "master" is already widely used in basically
> *all* the documentation everywhere. Some people have been using this
> name for 15 years, they won't give it up just like that.

Yes, that was badly phrased and I take that back. I meant to say
something closer to "a common convention" or whatever. E.g. if GitHub et
al for whatever reason switched all use of "origin" as the default
remote to "source" I'd think that at some point we'd be improving things
overall if we made that switch as well.

> People will complain, especially if they don't see a good reason for
> the change.


1. https://lore.kernel.org/git/CAMP44s1515GOwTOYv-wz4qMC9Qb6d8cSVSb_CNVwun0+Yj3VxQ@mail.gmail.com/

  reply	other threads:[~2020-11-20 11:38 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 163+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-12 22:43 [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 01/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 02/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 03/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 04/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 05/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 06/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 07/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 08/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 09/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 10/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 11/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 12/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 13/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 14/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13 10:02   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:18     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:07     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 15/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 16/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 17/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 18/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 19/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 20/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 21/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 22/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 23/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 24/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 25/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 26/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 27/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 28/28] Change the default branch name to `main` Don Goodman-Wilson via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13  9:57   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:09     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:04       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-13  0:11 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 12:55 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:22   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 16:13     ` [RFC/PATCH] tests: support testing with an arbitrary default branch (sort of) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 19:14       ` Jeff King
2020-11-13 22:00         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 22:39           ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 23:49           ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
     [not found]             ` <nycvar.QRO.7.76.6.2011162118060.18437@tvgsbejvaqbjf.bet>
2020-11-18 13:32               ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-18 14:16                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-20 11:36                   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason [this message]
2020-11-20 16:00                     ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 15:56                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:32                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:35                     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 19:07                       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 10:46                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-14  0:25           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 17:42   ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-14  6:13 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-16 19:52   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 16:10     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 19:09       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 20:58         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 16:12 ` [PATCH v2 00/27] tests: use " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 01/27] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 02/27] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 03/27] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 04/27] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 05/27] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 06/27] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 07/27] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 08/27] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 09/27] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 10/27] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 11/27] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 12/27] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 13/27] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 14/27] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 15/27] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 16/27] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 17/27] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 18/27] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 19/27] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 20/27] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 21/27] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 22/27] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 23/27] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 24/27] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 25/27] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 26/27] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 27/27] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 11:48   ` [PATCH v2 28/27] tests: run tests omitted by PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-18 23:56     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:30       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-20 13:09         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-20 18:08           ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 23:44   ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 01/28] tests: mark tests relying on the current default for `init.defaultBranch` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 02/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 03/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 04/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 05/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 06/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 07/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 08/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 09/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 10/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 11/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 12/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 13/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 14/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 15/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 16/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 17/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 18/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 19/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 20/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 21/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 22/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 23/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 24/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 25/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 26/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 27/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 28/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-19 23:35     ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 20:48 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use " Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-17 22:47   ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 23:33     ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  0:07       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  1:25         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:40           ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:43             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 11:32               ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18 15:43                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:22                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18  0:18       ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  1:22         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  1:45           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  2:06             ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:39               ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18 10:12                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  9:04               ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 22:55   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 23:16     ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  0:10       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  0:51         ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 23:45     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:00       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  0:44           ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:55             ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  1:51       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19 10:35         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 11:10           ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-19 11:50             ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 12:33               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-21 23:01             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 10:21               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 11:20                 ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 13:23                   ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 20:18                     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 21:56                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-22 23:54                   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  2:56   ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:57     ` Junio C Hamano

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