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From: Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>
To: "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" <avarab@gmail.com>
Cc: Jeff King <peff@peff.net>,
	git@vger.kernel.org, Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>,
	Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>,
	Don Goodman-Wilson <don@goodman-wilson.com>,
	"brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>,
	Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC/PATCH] tests: support testing with an arbitrary default branch (sort of)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:46:45 +0100 (CET)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <nycvar.QRO.7.76.6.2011191050550.56@tvgsbejvaqbjf.bet> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87ima2rdsm.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4483 bytes --]

Hi Ævar,

I agree with pretty much all you said, just wanted to comment on a couple
things:

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:

> In case I didn't make it clear I have no objection entirely replacing
> "master" with "main" in the tests. I just had a practical
> concern/question about coverage while it was landing, and a suggestion
> of whether perhaps there was an easier/faster way to do the "init"
> change first by omitting some of the test churn.
>
> But if you want to do all the legwork that's fine by me :)

I started it, I finish it, I guess. Well, technically Don started it...

> I think some of the people advocating this change can rightly look at
> some of the previous E-Mail traffic and see what are at best rants and
> at worst some political grandstanding that's at best pretty irrelevant
> to any proposed changes in git.git.
>
> But that doesn't mean that there aren't some legitimate concerns.

And that's so sad to read. It is disheartening how eager certain people
were to drown out others' voices, then claiming that they had not heard
any views opposing their own. I mean, yeah, if you want to hear other
opinions, it sure helps to stop talking for a while, and to start
listening.

I consider myself lucky that I _did_ get the chance to listen. Related to
my work in GSoC and Outreachy, and through my day job, wonderful people
approached me with their stories and perspectives. I am really glad that I
had the opportunity to hear those.

As to legitimate concerns: yes, you are right. There are those. If your
documentation says that you should avoid committing directly to the
`master` branch, and then you clone a popular Open Source project and it
does not even _have_ a `master` branch, that might be a bit puzzling.

Note that I used a clone as an example, not `git init`, because it is a
much more common operation. Git is a tool for developers to communicate,
in a way, after all, even if it _can_ be used for working in isolation,
too. Hence clones outnumber inits. And that communication of ideas, of
code, and to combine efforts, to collaborate, that is what Git really
facilitates. That is why I find it so important to be inclusive, to be
inviting underrepresented developers. There is such a lot of untapped
potential there, and even if using a non-offensive default branch name is
but a _teeny_ tiny step to open the door a little, it is at least a step
in the right direction.

Now, since I mentioned `clone`: please note that the default branch name
used in a `clone` is squarely outside the Git project's control. It is
decided by the maintainer(s)/communities of the respective projects. And
that's exactly how it should be.

Therefore, as you said before, it does not really matter all that much
at what date we will change the fall-back for `init.defaultBranch`.

At the same time, I still think that it is valuable to transition the test
suite _now_, to be as independent on a specific default branch name as
possible, if only to ensure that above-mentioned projects can choose
freely what they want their primary branch to be called and Git works just
fine.

> I do 100% agree that the s/master/main/g change of the default should be
> made in one form or another. In my mind that doesn't even require a
> consideration of the political motivations at this point as far as
> git.git is concerned, just:
>
>  1. Major Git hosting providers already made the change
>
>  2. Realistically a lot/majority of git's user base interact with that
>     in a major way.
>
>  3. A discrepancy in any default between /usr/bin/git and those
>     providers is more confusing than not.

Right.

I originally thought that we should switch the default branch name in
v2.30 for that reason, but I now think that adding that advice is probably
a less disruptive, and almost equally supportive solution.

>  4. #3 doesn't mean they say "jump" we say "how high" whatever the
>     change is.
>
>     But in this case the default is an entirely arbitrary default. Not
>     e.g. that they decided to add some ill-thought out header to the
>     object format or whatever.
>
> P.S.: Shouldn't the pull patch in d18c950a69f be using the advice
>      facility, not warning()?

I submitted a patch for that, but unfortunately forgot to Cc: you:
https://lore.kernel.org/git/pull.795.git.1605781349528.gitgitgadget@gmail.com

Ciao,
Dscho

  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-11-19 10:49 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 163+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-12 22:43 [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 01/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 02/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 03/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 04/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 05/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 06/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 07/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 08/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 09/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 10/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 11/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 12/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 13/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 14/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13 10:02   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:18     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:07     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 15/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 16/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 17/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 18/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 19/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 20/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 21/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 22/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 23/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 24/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 25/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 26/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 27/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 28/28] Change the default branch name to `main` Don Goodman-Wilson via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13  9:57   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:09     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:04       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-13  0:11 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 12:55 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:22   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 16:13     ` [RFC/PATCH] tests: support testing with an arbitrary default branch (sort of) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 19:14       ` Jeff King
2020-11-13 22:00         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 22:39           ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 23:49           ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
     [not found]             ` <nycvar.QRO.7.76.6.2011162118060.18437@tvgsbejvaqbjf.bet>
2020-11-18 13:32               ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-18 14:16                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-20 11:36                   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-20 16:00                     ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 15:56                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:32                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:35                     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 19:07                       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 10:46                 ` Johannes Schindelin [this message]
2020-11-14  0:25           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 17:42   ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-14  6:13 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-16 19:52   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 16:10     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 19:09       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 20:58         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 16:12 ` [PATCH v2 00/27] tests: use " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 01/27] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 02/27] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 03/27] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 04/27] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 05/27] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 06/27] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 07/27] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 08/27] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 09/27] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 10/27] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 11/27] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 12/27] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 13/27] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 14/27] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 15/27] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 16/27] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 17/27] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 18/27] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 19/27] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 20/27] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 21/27] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 22/27] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 23/27] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 24/27] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 25/27] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 26/27] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 27/27] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 11:48   ` [PATCH v2 28/27] tests: run tests omitted by PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-18 23:56     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:30       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-20 13:09         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-20 18:08           ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 23:44   ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 01/28] tests: mark tests relying on the current default for `init.defaultBranch` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 02/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 03/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 04/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 05/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 06/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 07/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 08/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 09/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 10/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 11/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 12/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 13/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 14/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 15/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 16/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 17/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 18/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 19/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 20/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 21/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 22/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 23/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 24/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 25/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 26/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 27/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 28/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-19 23:35     ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 20:48 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use " Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-17 22:47   ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 23:33     ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  0:07       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  1:25         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:40           ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:43             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 11:32               ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18 15:43                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:22                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18  0:18       ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  1:22         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  1:45           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  2:06             ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:39               ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18 10:12                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  9:04               ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 22:55   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 23:16     ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  0:10       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  0:51         ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 23:45     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:00       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  0:44           ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:55             ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  1:51       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19 10:35         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 11:10           ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-19 11:50             ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 12:33               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-21 23:01             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 10:21               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 11:20                 ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 13:23                   ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 20:18                     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 21:56                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-22 23:54                   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  2:56   ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:57     ` Junio C Hamano

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