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From: Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>
To: "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" <avarab@gmail.com>
Cc: Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>,
	Jeff King <peff@peff.net>, Git <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>,
	"Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>,
	Don Goodman-Wilson <don@goodman-wilson.com>,
	"brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>
Subject: Re: [RFC/PATCH] tests: support testing with an arbitrary default branch (sort of)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 10:00:27 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAMP44s2b7y0WJeJnJG3QoPq5b7yFF2+R-5T0SEx31v=zv1tNvQ@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87pn48p8eo.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 5:36 AM Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
<avarab@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 18 2020, Felipe Contreras wrote:

> > That's a problem for GitHub et al. Fortunately they can tell their
> > users to set init.defaultbranch to whatever they want.
>
> I think this and what you mention in another thread[1] about GitHub's
> instructions for creating a repository takes a narrow view of our
> responsibility for creating a sane UI for users.
>
> For example, right after the instructions you note there GitHub's
> current instructions are:
>
>     git remote add origin $url
>     git branch -M main
>     git push -u origin main
>
> Now, put yourself in the shoes of a novice user who's just been
> introduced to this "git" thing for a job they started 2 days ago. We
> don't take the s/master/main/g change in git.git, GitHub keeps
> theirs.

I am.

But that doesn't change the instructions. The "git branch -M main"
would still be there (for older versions of Git).

And the "git push -u origin main" would still be there, because you
need to specify the branch you want to push to. Although I would have
used HEAD instead of main, or even better @, which apparently doesn't
work, but should work. If GitHub cares so much about these
instructions, they could have fixed this so "git push -u origin @"
works, why haven't they? Because they don't care as much as they claim
to (see the obvious inconsistency below).

> You followed some tutorial or read the manpage to create a local
> repository and made a few commits, then to upload it to GitHub or
> another provider that uses "main" by default you copy/pasted the above
> commands. Now the thing changing from "master" to "main" is one more
> thing you're confused by.

What if the project uses "trunk"? Or "default"?

If a project uses a non-standard name, it's their responsibility to
teach their users how to interact with that project. If GitHub chose
"main", it's *their* responsibility to tell their users that this is a
discrepancy from most of the online documentation, including online
documentation specific to GitHub.

The best way the Git project can help is by not hard-coding any of
these names, so the documentation doesn't have to use "master", or
"main", but can use @, or @{upstream}.

But right now the documentation *has* to hard-code these names,
because of poor triangular workflow support from Git, something I
tried to fix many years ago with my @{publish} patches.

If we had proper @{upstream} and @{publish} support, and taught users
how to use them well, there would be no need for anyone to do "git
rebase -i master" ("git rebase -i" would do).

> That's my motivation for supporting this change. I think most git users
> by number are (hopefully) in the future, yes, as you note we'll have
> version transitions where that's more confusing than not, but the same
> can be said about the dashed command transition.

The number of Git users in the future directly depends on how we treat
Git users in the present. And the Git users of the present would not
appreciate that 99% of documentation out there uses "master", while
Git does not, especially if in their mind it's due to bad (political)
reasons.

What's wrong with *first* fixing the interface so we don't have to
type "master" so much (e.g. by properly supporting triangular
workflows), and *then* consider changing "master" later, *after* a lot
of online documentation has stopped using the name "master" directly
as well?

> Whatever mistakes we made in that transition and should learn from a
> typical git user in 2020 has never used a dashed builtin, just like a
> new user in 2030 probably won't know or have to care about their local
> default being different than a $BIG_HOSTING_PROVIDER default.

That's *if* the current project survives in its current form. Perhaps
in 2030 there will be a libgit with more than one user interface.
Nobody knows the future.

> That *is* our problem, not just a problem for GitHub et al. To claim
> otherwise is to just bury our head in the sand.

It is our problem to improve the interface so users don't have to type
"master" (or "main), so much.

It is not our problem that GitHub decided to get ahead of itself and
change their instructions without first considering other options,
like improving the interface.

> Are we on balance going to not make the change because e.g. we don't
> want various paper books and tutorials to be confusing? Maybe, maybe
> not. But just dismissing those concerns by saying e.g. "that's
> O'Reilly's problem" would be as nonsensical as us pretending that
> perpetuating an (admittedly rather minor) UI difference in perpetuity by
> our inaction is purely GitHub's responsibility.

GitHub can fix that UI difference *today* by retracting their
instructions and instead come here and discuss with us ways to improve
the interface first.

They chose that action *unilaterally* without discussing it with the
Git project. That's on them.

Yes, GitHub users are our users too, but we have many more users, we
shouldn't hurt them just because GitHub has no patience.

As an example of GitHub's impatience, look at GitHub's Hello World
[1], the text has been updated to "main", but all the images say
"master". It's their *first* guide, and it's already inconsistent.

https://guides.github.com/activities/hello-world/readme-edits.gif

Additionally, GitHub cannot say "implement X or we will hurt our
users". That would be manipulative tactics, and the Git project should
not succumb to those. Regardless of what GitHub does, the Git project
should implement X on its own terms, if and when it has determined
it's in the best interest of its users.

Moreover, you have not explained precisely how the issues will be
solved by changing the default name. All the documentation out there
would be inconsistent with "main". Even GitHub's own documentation is
inconsistent at this precise moment.

Take one of the first results you get when googling "github how to"
[2], it says to "git push -u origin master". By keeping the name
"master" we are helping those users that are not using a github.com
guide, and are using one of the hundreds (or thousands) of guides out
there that assume the name is master. In fact, the *only* thing that
is hurting GitHub users right now is those initial instructions they
chose, which you can ignore, and instead use an external guide.

It is very likely that by doing this change we would actually hurt
more GitHub users than not doing it.

Cheers.

[1] https://guides.github.com/activities/hello-world/
[2] https://opensource.com/article/18/1/step-step-guide-git

-- 
Felipe Contreras

  reply	other threads:[~2020-11-20 17:12 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 163+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-12 22:43 [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 01/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 02/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 03/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 04/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 05/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 06/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 07/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 08/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 09/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 10/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 11/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 12/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 13/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 14/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13 10:02   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:18     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:07     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 15/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 16/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 17/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 18/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 19/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 20/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 21/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 22/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 23/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 24/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 25/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 26/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 27/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 28/28] Change the default branch name to `main` Don Goodman-Wilson via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13  9:57   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:09     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:04       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-13  0:11 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 12:55 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:22   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 16:13     ` [RFC/PATCH] tests: support testing with an arbitrary default branch (sort of) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 19:14       ` Jeff King
2020-11-13 22:00         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 22:39           ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 23:49           ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
     [not found]             ` <nycvar.QRO.7.76.6.2011162118060.18437@tvgsbejvaqbjf.bet>
2020-11-18 13:32               ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-18 14:16                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-20 11:36                   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-20 16:00                     ` Felipe Contreras [this message]
2020-11-18 15:56                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:32                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:35                     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 19:07                       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 10:46                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-14  0:25           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 17:42   ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-14  6:13 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-16 19:52   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 16:10     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 19:09       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 20:58         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 16:12 ` [PATCH v2 00/27] tests: use " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 01/27] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 02/27] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 03/27] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 04/27] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 05/27] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 06/27] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 07/27] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 08/27] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 09/27] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 10/27] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 11/27] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 12/27] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 13/27] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 14/27] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 15/27] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 16/27] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 17/27] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 18/27] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 19/27] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 20/27] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 21/27] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 22/27] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 23/27] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 24/27] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 25/27] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 26/27] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 27/27] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 11:48   ` [PATCH v2 28/27] tests: run tests omitted by PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-18 23:56     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:30       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-20 13:09         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-20 18:08           ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 23:44   ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 01/28] tests: mark tests relying on the current default for `init.defaultBranch` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 02/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 03/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 04/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 05/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 06/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 07/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 08/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 09/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 10/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 11/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 12/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 13/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 14/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 15/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 16/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 17/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 18/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 19/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 20/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 21/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 22/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 23/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 24/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 25/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 26/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 27/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 28/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-19 23:35     ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 20:48 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use " Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-17 22:47   ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 23:33     ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  0:07       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  1:25         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:40           ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:43             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 11:32               ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18 15:43                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:22                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18  0:18       ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  1:22         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  1:45           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  2:06             ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:39               ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18 10:12                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  9:04               ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 22:55   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 23:16     ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  0:10       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  0:51         ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 23:45     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:00       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  0:44           ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:55             ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  1:51       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19 10:35         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 11:10           ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-19 11:50             ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 12:33               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-21 23:01             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 10:21               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 11:20                 ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 13:23                   ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 20:18                     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 21:56                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-22 23:54                   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  2:56   ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:57     ` Junio C Hamano

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