What did you enjoy about LibrePlanet 2019?

What did you enjoy about LibrePlanet 2019?

[Philip Durbin]

This is just a friendly reminder that LibrePlanet 2019 feedback is due
tomorrow, April 8th. I just filled in the form myself and I thought I'd
share the positive things I had to say with the hopes that others would
share what they enjoyed as well. Here goes:

The people, the FSF open house, the talks, the hallway track, hanging out
at Scholar's, Deb being recognized, hanging out at Grendel's. It was all
great. Tarek Loubani's talk was moving.

I probably should have written more. I really enjoyed the visuals in the
Hackerspace Rancho Electrónico talk. I liked Shauna's "Governing the
software commons" talk and plan to watch it again. I liked the "Sharing
global opportunities for new developers in the Wikipedia community" talk by
Srishti Sethi. The DistrictBuilder talk was interesting for residents of
the US who are concerned about gerrymandering.

I enjoyed seeing familiar faces and meeting some people I'd only heard of
before.

What about you? Did you attend in person or online? What did you enjoy
about LibrePlanet 2019?

Thanks,

Phil
https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Pdurbin

p.s.
Here's a handy link to the feedback form: https://my.fsf.org/node/22
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Re: What did you enjoy about LibrePlanet 2019?

[Taiidan]

Did the pur.idiots show up and peddle their fake "open source" firmware
computers again?

Any booths for honest companies like raptorcs vikings, minifree etc? or
explanations about firmware and hardware freedom?

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Re: What did you enjoy about LibrePlanet 2019?

[John Sullivan]

On April 8, 2019 2:34:27 PM EDT, "Taiidan@gmx.com" <Taiidan@gmx.com> wrote:
>Did the pur.idiots show up and peddle their fake "open source" firmware
>computers again?
>
>Any booths for honest companies like raptorcs vikings, minifree etc? or
>explanations about firmware and hardware freedom?
>
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Don't call people or groups of people names on this list, please. Disagreement and criticism are otherwise welcome.


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Re: What did you enjoy about LibrePlanet 2019?

[Quiliro Ordonez]

El 2019-04-08 18:34, Taiidan@gmx.com escribió:
> Did the pur.idiots show up and peddle their fake "open source" firmware
> computers again?

I don't think it is necesary to insult them. Anyway, please explain why
you think they are fake.

> Any booths for honest companies like raptorcs vikings, minifree etc? or
> explanations about firmware and hardware freedom?

Why do you think these are legitimate and the others are not?

These are important issue for me. But if you insult them you do not
discredit them; you discredit yourself. So, explain what you think
without agresivity so we can also understand what you know.

Regards,
Quiliro
FSF LA

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Re: What did you enjoy about LibrePlanet 2019?

[Kip Warner]

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On Mon, 2019-04-08 at 14:34 -0400, Taiidan@gmx.com wrote:
> Did the pur.idiots show up and peddle their fake "open source"
> firmware computers again?
> 
> Any booths for honest companies like raptorcs vikings, minifree etc?
> or explanations about firmware and hardware freedom?

Not cool. Please take that kind of rhetoric off the list.

-- 
Kip Warner | Senior Software Engineer
OpenPGP signed/encrypted mail preferred
https://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: What did you enjoy about LibrePlanet 2019?

[Taiidan]

On 04/08/2019 04:58 PM, Quiliro Ordonez wrote:
> El 2019-04-08 18:34, Taiidan@gmx.com escribió:
>> Did the pur.idiots show up and peddle their fake "open source" firmware
>> computers again?
>
> I don't think it is necesary to insult them.

You're right, sometimes I get intensely bothered by them and their
dishonesty, apparent leverage over the FSF, insults of legitimate
companies etc. I wish I could say it was a "mistake by a new employee"
as they do but I can't as I am only one person.

They are not idiots - in fact they're far from it - they're expert level
madison avenue marketing, VC funded scam artists peddling not-libre
computers.

> Anyway, please explain why
> you think they are fake.

They sell "libre" laptops that have the hardware init entirely performed
via the Intel FSP binary blob, their website is dishonest and not up
front and even the name "Libre-M" is dishonest. They claim the ME is
disabled although the kernel and hw init code still runs.

They claim that they will "free" FSP and ME but that is functionally
impossible let alone in a timely fashion that would let them sell new
stuff, they also claim that they will backport that but as of now they
have 5 generations of hardware making such a thing inordinately
expensive even if they suddenly obtained legal source code.

Reverse engineering FSP, ME etc is something that would take tens of
millions, an expert team and 5 years of work per chipset.

Reverse engineering ME is illegal in the US under the DMCA as it is
bypassing a DRM mechanism and even if they could somehow accomplish this
(me cleaner not made by them!) they would be sued by intel and hollywood
as ME is used for PAVP, intel insider, HDCP etc.

In 5 years they'll still be saying they are "doing our best" while many
other companies are just doing.

Can you find the truth on their site? Yes they did in fact add it
eventually after many people complained but it is hidden in the fine
print and I haven't ever met anyone who wanted to buy one of their
products that knew the truth and they were all shocked when I told them.

They are Teflon, everything just goes off them like water off a raincoat.

>
>> Any booths for honest companies like raptorcs vikings, minifree etc? or
>> explanations about firmware and hardware freedom?
>
> Why do you think these are legitimate and the others are not?

They don't lie.

Vikings claims to sell owner controlled libre firmware systems flashed
with coreboot, they do.

RaptorCS claims to sell american made OpenPOWER CPU's and motherboards
with libre firmware, both of those claims are true.

Minifree claims to sell owner controlled libre firmware computers, they do.

Pur.company[1] claims to sell Libre laptops with a disabled me, they
don't - the hw init is entirely performed via binary blobs and the ME is
not disabled since the hw init code and the kernel still run. They also
imply they did more than just run ME cleaner which someone did the work on.
System-sevensix claims to sell american made computers with a disabled
ME, it is the same situation as above with the ME. The legal standard of
american made is "all or virtually all" components of a "made in usa"
product must also be from america but in this case the truth is obvious
as only the case is made in usa (maybe not even, probably china metal)
and even a layman knows computers are not a metal box.

[1](I don't want to up their search ranking)

This isn't a new thing, many people have talked about their dishonesty
before and nothing has changed on their end.

I do not understand why they continue to lie, they know it is wrong and
they also know people would buy honestly sold products.

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Claims about Purism need backing: sources, quotes, further explanation

[J.B. Nicholson]

Taiidan@gmx.com wrote:
> You're right, sometimes I get intensely bothered by them and their
> dishonesty, apparent leverage over the FSF, insults of legitimate
> companies etc.

I think we all deserve sources and quotes to back up your assertions. 
Exactly what leverage does Purism have over the FSF? Where can we find 
these insults of legitimate companies (presumably made by Purism), and what 
exact text do you find to be insulting?

> They sell "libre" laptops that have the hardware init entirely performed
> via the Intel FSP binary blob, their website is dishonest and not up
> front and even the name "Libre-M" is dishonest. They claim the ME is
> disabled although the kernel and hw init code still runs.

I think your point here could use some expansion: is it possible for a 
program running on the OS to get data to and from the ME? If so, how is 
this different from having an ME work like it does on most modern 
Intel-based computers?

> They also imply they did more than just run ME cleaner which someone did
> the work on.

What's the URL for this and precisely where on that page would we find this 
implication? Please do quote the exact text.

> [1](I don't want to up their search ranking)

This pseudo-footnote is not good enough. Your desire to not increase their 
search ranking doesn't free you from an obligation to back up your point.

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Re: Claims about Purism need backing: sources, quotes, further explanation

[Taiidan]

On 04/27/2019 06:42 PM, J.B. Nicholson wrote:
> Taiidan@gmx.com wrote:
>> You're right, sometimes I get intensely bothered by them and their
>> dishonesty, apparent leverage over the FSF, insults of legitimate
>> companies etc.
>
> I think we all deserve sources and quotes to back up your assertions.
> Exactly what leverage does Purism have over the FSF?

Money, they donate and I assume that is how they managed to convince the
FSF to certify their debian clone PurOS, advertise their not actually
special phones and all but endorse them.

The FSF somehow believes even despite being told by the experts to the
contrary again and again that their products are special and has
repeatedly said stuff like "Makers of fine free hardware" only to later
claim it is a mistake in the classic todd weaver style.

Everyone is misunderstanding me and my goals, I want them to be honest
and apologize for what they have done not go out of business - what is
so unreasonable about wanting honesty? About wanting them to be up
front? not hide the truth in the fine print and technical lingo that no
one understands not even the FSF's people.

They have set the freedom hardware movement back years by convincing
people via slick marketing that new x86 hardware can somehow be freed
when it can't, it simply can't and you don't need to have a PhD to
understand how difficult it would be to reverse engineer intels hardware
in a timely manner and not get sued or shut down via DMCA for illegally
bypassing a hollywood DRM mechanism.

> Where can we find
> these insults of legitimate companies (presumably made by Purism), and
> what exact text do you find to be insulting?


Here are informative links for you.

https://goblinrefuge.com/mediagoblin/u/onpon4/m/what-purism-s-road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-chart-should-look-like/
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3anjgm/on_the_librem_laptop_purism_doesnt_believe_in/
https://web.archive.org/web/20161010040458/https://blogs.coreboot.org/blog/2015/02/23/the-truth-about-purism-why-librem-is-not-the-same-as-libre/

https://puri.sm/faq/
"Libreboot is a downstream distribution (or fork) of coreboot which
doesn’t allow non-free binaries (“blobs”), and only supports a small
number of devices, the vast majority of which are over 10 years old.
Libreboot also doesn’t “keep track” with coreboot; its most recent
release is from mid-2016, whereas coreboot’s is late 2018."

This implies that old is useless which it isnt, also libreboot devices
are not 10+ years old! "keeping track" of coreboot wouldn't make it
better either, neither also has a "release" since that isn't how open
source software projects work.

https://web.archive.org/web/20161010100959/https://blogs.coreboot.org/blog/2015/08/09/the-truth-about-purism-behind-the-coreboot-scenes/
"Lug around a heavy old IBM thinkpad? Or the sleek new beautiful
productname15"

Later after people complain and it comes to the attention of the media
todd claims it was a mistake, another in a long line of "mistakes".

"Ouch, that is not an approved tweet. I asked to have it removed, since
I am a big fan of what Gluglug did/does. And we provide it as an
alternative from our own website."

There have been others but this is the only one I still have a link to.

They pressured coreboot to have these removed and now mentioning purism
in any negative light on the coreboot mailinglist will have you
moderated and threatened with a permanent ban.


>
>> They sell "libre" laptops that have the hardware init entirely performed
>> via the Intel FSP binary blob, their website is dishonest and not up
>> front and even the name "Libre-M" is dishonest. They claim the ME is
>> disabled although the kernel and hw init code still runs.
>
> I think your point here could use some expansion: is it possible for a
> program running on the OS to get data to and from the ME? If so, how is
> this different from having an ME work like it does on most modern
> Intel-based computers?

The ME DMA device can read any and all memory, connect to devices etc
and is exempt from IOMMU restrictions.

Normally of course they shouldn't be chatty but the point is that they
claim it to be disabled whilst it isn't so any theoretical backdoor is
still there and can activate the management functions of a nic or run
arbitrary code on the OS.

There is a huge difference between ME/PSP and say OpenBMC, one of which
is ethical libre remote management of your own devices and one is
something that is put there for no real reason and can't be turned off.
They say the corporate types wanted ME? What was wrong with a regular
BMC? The answer - BMC's don't support DRM functions for hollywood and
don't let governments do stealthy hacking and backdoors.

>
>> They also imply they did more than just run ME cleaner which someone did
>> the work on.
>
> What's the URL for this and precisely where on that page would we find
> this implication? Please do quote the exact text.

https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disable-intel-management-engine/

This page doesn't mention MEcleaner or any real information about how
they did it.

"COMPANYNAME, because it runs coreboot and maintains its own BIOS
firmware update process has been able to release and ship coreboot that
disables the Management Engine from running, directly halting the ME CPU
without the ability of recovery."

This implies that what they did is something special that people can't
do on their own to any firmware, which anyone can.

It also claims that they disable ME, that it doesn't run although it
does. Again later they claim this article to be a "mistake".

They changed the definition of disabled, a kernel and hw init code still
run on their "disabled" ME but somehow that is "disabled" since (and
they have no way to verify) they think that it doesn't do anything and
politely shuts off after it boots the computer.

Forget to include the ME blob on their "disabled ME" laptops and they
WILL shut off after 30 minutes, intel says its for the users own good
but I don't know of any legitimate BMC that does that.

https://puri.sm/faq/
"Libreboot is a downstream distribution (or fork) of coreboot which
doesn’t allow non-free binaries (“blobs”), and only supports a small
number of devices, the vast majority of which are over 10 years old.
Libreboot also doesn’t “keep track” with coreboot; its most recent
release is from mid-2016, whereas coreboot’s is late 2018."

Again with the insults of their real alternatives, implying that
old=useless.

"Our coreboot firmware still has some blobs,

Some? SOME? The entire hardware init is done via fsp binary blobs!

"as all modern Intel-based systems require them, but our our goal is to
ship devices with blob-free coreboot.

Which will never happen with x86 hardware, it just can't be done in any
reasonable amount of time no matter how much money you have. Even if you
could say spend millions on reverse engineering why not spend that money
on making an OpenPOWER laptop? since OpenPOWER already has libre
firmware and is also american made so is much more trustworthy than
chinese made ME'ed propriatary x86 junk.

AFAIK their only legitimately skilled employee (youness, I like and
respect him both before/after that) left for some reason so I doubt they
are doing anything at all at this time.

>
>> [1](I don't want to up their search ranking)
>
> This pseudo-footnote is not good enough. Your desire to not increase
> their search ranking doesn't free you from an obligation to back up your
> point.

I meant that I don't want to use the actual company names not provide
sources I would never say something that isn't real.

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