git@vger.kernel.org list mirror (unofficial, one of many)
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Walter Bright <boost@digitalmars.com>
To: git@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC] Convert builin-mailinfo.c to use The Better String Library.
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:23:16 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <fbs8es$1cd$1@sea.gmane.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <46E11CE1.4030209@op5.se>

Andreas Ericsson wrote:
> Walter Bright wrote:
>> 1) You wind up having to implement the complex, dirty details of 
>> things yourself. The consequences of this are:
>>
>>    a) you pick a simpler algorithm (which is likely less efficient - I 
>> run across bubble sorts all the time in code)
>>
>>    b) once you implement, tune, and squeeze all the bugs out of those 
>> complex, dirty details, you're reluctant to change it. You're 
>> reluctant to try a different algorithm to see if it's faster. I've 
>> seen this effect a lot in my own code. (I translated a large body of 
>> my own C++ code that I'd spent months tuning to D, and quickly managed 
>> to get significantly more speed out of it, because it was much simpler 
>> to try out different algorithms/data structures.)
>>
> 
> I haven't seen this in the development of git, although to be fair, you
> didn't mention the number of developers that were simultaneously working
> on your project.

On my project, one. But I've seen this problem repeatedly in other 
projects that had multiple developers. For example, I used to use 
version 1 of an assembler. It was itself written entirely in assembler. 
It ran *incredibly* slowly on large asm files. But it was written in 
assembler, which is very fast, so how could that be?

Turns out, the symbol table used internally was a linear one. A linear 
symbol table is easy to implement, but doesn't scale well at all. A 
linear symbol table was implemented because it was just harder to do 
more advanced symbol table algorithms in assembler. In this case, a 
higher level language re-implementation made the assembler much faster, 
even though that implementation was SLOWER in every detail. It was 
faster overall, because it was easier to develop faster algorithms.


> If it was you alone, I can imagine you were reluctant to
> change it just to see if something is faster.

My point was that when I reimplemented it in D, the cost of changing the 
algorithms got much lower, so I was much more tempted to muck around 
trying out different ones. The result was I found faster ones.


> Opensource projects with many contributors (git, linux) work differently,
> since one or a few among the plethora of authors will almost always be
> a true expert at the problem being solved.

That is a nice advantage. I don't think many projects can rely on having 
the best in the business working on them, though <g>.


> The point is that, given enough developers, *someone* is bound to
> find an algorithm that works so well that it's no longer worth
> investing time to even discuss if anything else would work better,
> either because it moves the performance bottleneck to somewhere else
> (where further speedups would no longer produce humanly measurable
> improvements), or because the action seems instantanous to the user
> (further improvements simply aren't worth it, because no valuable
> resource will be saved from it).

Sure, but I suggest that few projects reach this maxima. Case in point: 
ld, the gnu linker. It's terribly slow. To see how slow it is, compare 
it to optlink (the 15 years old one that comes with D for Windows). So I 
don't believe there is anything inherent about linking that should make 
ld so slow. There's some huge leverage possible in speeding up ld 
(spreading out that saved time among all the gnu developers).

So while git may have reached a maxima in performance, I don't think 
this principle is applicable in general, even for very widely used open 
source projects that would profit greatly from improved performance.

------
Walter Bright
http://www.digitalmars.com  C, C++, D programming language compilers
http://www.astoriaseminar.com  Extraordinary C++

  reply	other threads:[~2007-09-07 19:23 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 102+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2007-09-04 20:50 Lukas Sandström
2007-09-04 21:38 ` Alex Riesen
2007-09-04 23:01   ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-05 14:54 ` Kristian Høgsberg
2007-09-05 17:29   ` Matthieu Moy
2007-09-06  2:30     ` Miles Bader
2007-09-06  4:48     ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-06  4:59       ` Shawn O. Pearce
2007-09-06  9:12         ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-06  9:35           ` Junio C Hamano
2007-09-06 10:21             ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-06  9:52           ` David Kastrup
2007-09-06  5:03       ` Miles Bader
2007-09-06 12:08         ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-06 17:50       ` Linus Torvalds
2007-09-07  0:21         ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-07  0:38           ` Linus Torvalds
2007-09-07  1:08             ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-07  1:27               ` Linus Torvalds
2007-09-07  3:09                 ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-07  5:48                   ` David Symonds
2007-09-07  6:15                   ` Theodore Tso
2007-09-20 14:06                     ` Steven Burns
2007-09-20 14:56                       ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07  6:31                   ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 22:17                     ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-07 22:28                       ` David Kastrup
2007-09-08  0:37                         ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-08  6:25                           ` David Kastrup
2007-09-09  0:29                       ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07  6:52                   ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 10:28                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-07 10:26                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-07  6:50               ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07  1:12             ` Linus Torvalds
2007-09-07  1:40               ` alan
2007-09-07  5:09               ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07  7:40                 ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07  8:15                   ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07  8:26                     ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07  9:14                       ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07  9:31                         ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 20:22                           ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07 20:27                             ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 23:16                               ` Walter Bright
2007-09-08 23:50                             ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-09  0:37                               ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-09  1:36                                 ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 11:36                   ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07  9:41                 ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-07 19:03                   ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07 19:31                     ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 20:49                       ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07 19:41                     ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-07 19:51                       ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 19:59                         ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-07 20:40                       ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07 20:56                         ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-07 22:54                           ` Walter Bright
2007-09-08  0:56               ` John 'Z-Bo' Zabroski
2007-09-08  6:36                 ` David Kastrup
2007-09-19 19:56               ` Steven Burns
2007-09-07  3:06           ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07  4:06             ` Paul Wankadia
2007-09-07  4:30               ` Nicolas Pitre
2007-09-07  9:19               ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07  6:25             ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 10:56               ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-07 11:54                 ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 12:33                   ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07 12:55                     ` Karl Hasselström
2007-09-07 13:58                     ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 14:13                       ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-09  0:09                         ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 16:09                 ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 11:30               ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07  8:36             ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07  9:41               ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 19:23                 ` Walter Bright [this message]
2007-09-07 19:40                   ` David Kastrup
2007-09-09  0:25                   ` Andreas Ericsson
2009-09-17 16:23                   ` Bernd Jendrissek
2007-09-07 11:52               ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07 19:25                 ` Walter Bright
2007-09-22 16:52               ` Steven Burns
2007-09-07  6:47           ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07  7:41             ` Andy Parkins
2007-09-07  8:08               ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 10:21           ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-08  0:32             ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-08  6:24               ` David Kastrup
2007-09-08 23:25               ` Alex Riesen
2007-09-24 13:41         ` figo
2007-09-24 13:57           ` David Kastrup
2007-09-25 19:19             ` Steven Burns
2007-09-25 19:55               ` David Kastrup
2012-05-22 18:30         ` Syed M Raihan
2010-06-10 19:12       ` Ian Molton
2010-06-11 12:23         ` Jakub Narebski
2010-06-11 13:33           ` Dario Rodriguez
2007-09-05 15:27 ` Kristian Høgsberg
2007-09-07 10:47 ` Lukas Sandström

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to='fbs8es$1cd$1@sea.gmane.org' \
    --to=boost@digitalmars.com \
    --cc=git@vger.kernel.org \
    --subject='Re: [RFC] Convert builin-mailinfo.c to use The Better String Library.' \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

git@vger.kernel.org list mirror (unofficial, one of many)

This inbox may be cloned and mirrored by anyone:

	git clone --mirror https://public-inbox.org/git
	git clone --mirror http://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/git
	git clone --mirror http://czquwvybam4bgbro.onion/git
	git clone --mirror http://hjrcffqmbrq6wope.onion/git

	# If you have public-inbox 1.1+ installed, you may
	# initialize and index your mirror using the following commands:
	public-inbox-init -V1 git git/ https://public-inbox.org/git \
		git@vger.kernel.org
	public-inbox-index git

Example config snippet for mirrors.
Newsgroups are available over NNTP:
	nntp://news.public-inbox.org/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://7fh6tueqddpjyxjmgtdiueylzoqt6pt7hec3pukyptlmohoowvhde4yd.onion/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://ie5yzdi7fg72h7s4sdcztq5evakq23rdt33mfyfcddc5u3ndnw24ogqd.onion/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://4uok3hntl7oi7b4uf4rtfwefqeexfzil2w6kgk2jn5z2f764irre7byd.onion/inbox.comp.version-control.git
	nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.version-control.git
 note: .onion URLs require Tor: https://www.torproject.org/

code repositories for project(s) associated with this inbox:

	https://80x24.org/mirrors/git.git

AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/public-inbox.git