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From: Pierre Habouzit <madcoder@debian.org>
To: Andreas Ericsson <ae@op5.se>
Cc: Walter Bright <boost@digitalmars.com>, git@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC] Convert builin-mailinfo.c to use The Better String   Library.
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 02:37:18 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20070909003718.GE13385@artemis.corp> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <46E3354A.7030407@op5.se>

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On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 11:50:34PM +0000, Andreas Ericsson wrote:
> Walter Bright wrote:
> > David Kastrup wrote:
> > > Again, C won't keep you from shooting yourself in the foot.
> > Right, it won't. A good systems language should do what it can to 
> > prevent the programmer from *inadvertently* shooting himself in the 
> > foot, while allowing him to *deliberately* shoot himself in the foot.
>
> No, a good systems language should do exactly what it's told.
> Supporting tools should tell the programmer if he's risking shooting
> himself in the foot.

  I beg to differ. I mean, knowing enough of D, I think that what Walter
tries to say is that a good language should provide constructions that
when used prevent the programmer to shoot himself in both foot at the
same time.

  D supports most of the C constructions, so when you want to juggle
with razor blades, you're free to do so in D. Though, the language
provides idioms that prevent you to write stupid mistakes when used. And
that is great.

  D is not Java, you have pointers, you can deal with memory
explicitely, you can do whatever you can do in C with no or very little
overhead. Or you can use higher level D, at your own discretion.

> > > You can tell C compilers to
> > > check all array accesses, but that is a performance issue.
> > Runtime checking of arrays in D is a performance issue too, so it is 
> > selectable via a command line switch.
>
> Same as in C then.

  HAHAHAHAHAHA. Please, who do you try to convince here ? Except in the
local scope, there is few differences between a foo* and a foo[] in C.

> > But more importantly,
> > 2) For dynamically sized arrays, the dimension of the array is carried
> > with the array, so loops automatically loop the correct number of times.
> > No runtime check is necessary, and it's easier for the code reviewer to
> > visually check the code for correctness.
>
> But this introduces handy but, strictly speaking, unnecessary overhead
> as well, meaning, in short; 'D is slower than C, but easier to write
> code in'.

  That's BS. See the strbuf API I've been pushing recently ? It has
simplified git's code a lot, because each time git had to deal with a
growing string, it had to deal with at least three variables: the buffer
pointer, the current occupied length, and its allocated size. That was
three thing to have variable names for, and to pass to functions.

  Now instead, it's just one struct. D gives that gratis. There is no
performance loss because you _need_ to do the same. How do you deal with
dynamic arrays if you dont't store their lenght and size somewhere ? Or
are you the kind of programmer that write:

  /* 640kb should be enough for everyone… */
  some_type *array = malloc(640 << 10);


> So in essence, it's a bit like Python, but a teensy bit faster and a
> lot easier to shoot yourself in the foot with.

> What was the niche you were going for when you thought up D? It can't
> have been systems programming, because *any* extra baggage is baggage
> one would like to get rid of. If it was application programming I fail
> to see how one more language would help, as there will be portability
> problems galore and it's still considerably slower to develop in than
> fe Python, while at the same time being considerably easier to mess up
> in.

  Right now I'm just laughing. There is for sure overheads in some
places of D, but the example you take, and what you try to attack in D
is definitely not where you lose any kind of performance. You could have
attacked the GC instead (which is after all an easy classical target).

  Just to evaluate the silliness of your arguments:
  * http://www.digitalmars.com/d/comparison.html so that you can tell
    what the D features really are,
  * http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all
    so that you can know what the D performance really is about. Of
    course those are only micro benchmarks, but well, python is "just"
    15 times slower than D, and D seems to be 10% slower. Well then I'm
    okay with D, I'm ready to buy 10% faster CPUs and avoid a lot of
    painful debugging time. In my world, 10% faster hardware is cheaper
    by many orders of magnitude than skilled programmers, but YMMV.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O                                                madcoder@debian.org
OOO                                                http://www.madism.org

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  reply	other threads:[~2007-09-09  8:43 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 102+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2007-09-04 20:50 Lukas Sandström
2007-09-04 21:38 ` Alex Riesen
2007-09-04 23:01   ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-05 14:54 ` Kristian Høgsberg
2007-09-05 17:29   ` Matthieu Moy
2007-09-06  2:30     ` Miles Bader
2007-09-06  4:48     ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-06  4:59       ` Shawn O. Pearce
2007-09-06  9:12         ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-06  9:35           ` Junio C Hamano
2007-09-06 10:21             ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-06  9:52           ` David Kastrup
2007-09-06  5:03       ` Miles Bader
2007-09-06 12:08         ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-06 17:50       ` Linus Torvalds
2007-09-07  0:21         ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-07  0:38           ` Linus Torvalds
2007-09-07  1:08             ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-07  1:27               ` Linus Torvalds
2007-09-07  3:09                 ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-07  5:48                   ` David Symonds
2007-09-07  6:15                   ` Theodore Tso
2007-09-20 14:06                     ` Steven Burns
2007-09-20 14:56                       ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07  6:31                   ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 22:17                     ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-07 22:28                       ` David Kastrup
2007-09-08  0:37                         ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-08  6:25                           ` David Kastrup
2007-09-09  0:29                       ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07  6:52                   ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 10:28                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-07 10:26                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-07  6:50               ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07  1:12             ` Linus Torvalds
2007-09-07  1:40               ` alan
2007-09-07  5:09               ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07  7:40                 ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07  8:15                   ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07  8:26                     ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07  9:14                       ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07  9:31                         ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 20:22                           ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07 20:27                             ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 23:16                               ` Walter Bright
2007-09-08 23:50                             ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-09  0:37                               ` Pierre Habouzit [this message]
2007-09-09  1:36                                 ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 11:36                   ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07  9:41                 ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-07 19:03                   ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07 19:31                     ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 20:49                       ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07 19:41                     ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-07 19:51                       ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 19:59                         ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-07 20:40                       ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07 20:56                         ` Pierre Habouzit
2007-09-07 22:54                           ` Walter Bright
2007-09-08  0:56               ` John 'Z-Bo' Zabroski
2007-09-08  6:36                 ` David Kastrup
2007-09-19 19:56               ` Steven Burns
2007-09-07  3:06           ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07  4:06             ` Paul Wankadia
2007-09-07  4:30               ` Nicolas Pitre
2007-09-07  9:19               ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07  6:25             ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 10:56               ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-07 11:54                 ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 12:33                   ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07 12:55                     ` Karl Hasselström
2007-09-07 13:58                     ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 14:13                       ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-09  0:09                         ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 16:09                 ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 11:30               ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07  8:36             ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07  9:41               ` Andreas Ericsson
2007-09-07 19:23                 ` Walter Bright
2007-09-07 19:40                   ` David Kastrup
2007-09-09  0:25                   ` Andreas Ericsson
2009-09-17 16:23                   ` Bernd Jendrissek
2007-09-07 11:52               ` Wincent Colaiuta
2007-09-07 19:25                 ` Walter Bright
2007-09-22 16:52               ` Steven Burns
2007-09-07  6:47           ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07  7:41             ` Andy Parkins
2007-09-07  8:08               ` David Kastrup
2007-09-07 10:21           ` Johannes Schindelin
2007-09-08  0:32             ` Dmitry Kakurin
2007-09-08  6:24               ` David Kastrup
2007-09-08 23:25               ` Alex Riesen
2007-09-24 13:41         ` figo
2007-09-24 13:57           ` David Kastrup
2007-09-25 19:19             ` Steven Burns
2007-09-25 19:55               ` David Kastrup
2012-05-22 18:30         ` Syed M Raihan
2010-06-10 19:12       ` Ian Molton
2010-06-11 12:23         ` Jakub Narebski
2010-06-11 13:33           ` Dario Rodriguez
2007-09-05 15:27 ` Kristian Høgsberg
2007-09-07 10:47 ` Lukas Sandström

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