Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Peter P.]

* Erich Eckner <erich@eckner.net> [2016-12-08 13:08]:
> On 08.12.2016 12:45, Peter P. wrote:
> > * Dr. Mark Bugeja MD <marcusfb@gmail.com> [2016-12-08 12:00]:
> >> If Sox does not preserve loops and cues yet.... then please add that to the
> >> wish list. It would be very handy for several people doing serious digital
> >> sound processing. :-)
> > I was thinking about the problem of markers in the file headers when
> > mixing files together, as Dr. Mark is trying to do. What if the
> > markers in the left channel and the right channel are not completely
> > identical? I think this is a more complicated task than just copying
> > input file markers to the output file when mixing.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> in that case I would propose to issue a warning and copy the markers
> from one source - this can be achieved without understanding the markers.
> A more elaborate solution could use both markers, but ommit markers
> which are too close together. This, however requires extracting and
> understanding the information of the markers.

Thanks for your Ideas Erich!

As someone else already said it is not precisely known how sox handles
markers, and I don't feel that it should become a marker editing/merging
application. Speaking of that, is anyone aware of audio editors / DAW
that do precisely that, eg. displaying markers and allowing user to
edit/rename them, espeicllay on linux?

Thanks!
Peter

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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Dr. Mark Bugeja MD]

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I am able to process these files with Sony Soundforge. This software 
does not come free though. I need to simply copy and paste. So it is as 
easy as a-b-c as the saying goes. It's the sheer volume of files that is 
of concern.

Mark


On 08/12/2016 14:47, Peter P. wrote:
> * Erich Eckner <erich@eckner.net> [2016-12-08 13:08]:
>> On 08.12.2016 12:45, Peter P. wrote:
>>> * Dr. Mark Bugeja MD <marcusfb@gmail.com> [2016-12-08 12:00]:
>>>> If Sox does not preserve loops and cues yet.... then please add that to the
>>>> wish list. It would be very handy for several people doing serious digital
>>>> sound processing. :-)
>>> I was thinking about the problem of markers in the file headers when
>>> mixing files together, as Dr. Mark is trying to do. What if the
>>> markers in the left channel and the right channel are not completely
>>> identical? I think this is a more complicated task than just copying
>>> input file markers to the output file when mixing.
>> Hi,
>>
>> in that case I would propose to issue a warning and copy the markers
>> from one source - this can be achieved without understanding the markers.
>> A more elaborate solution could use both markers, but ommit markers
>> which are too close together. This, however requires extracting and
>> understanding the information of the markers.
> Thanks for your Ideas Erich!
>
> As someone else already said it is not precisely known how sox handles
> markers, and I don't feel that it should become a marker editing/merging
> application. Speaking of that, is anyone aware of audio editors / DAW
> that do precisely that, eg. displaying markers and allowing user to
> edit/rename them, espeicllay on linux?
>
> Thanks!
> Peter
>
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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[RT]

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You may want to look into Octave which is like a free version of Matlab I
use it to batch process / create 1000's of audio files at once.  The time
this takes will vary on the length and bit rate of your file.

Here's some simple examples.

http://homepages.udayton.edu/~hardierc/ece203/sound.htm

Rick



On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 8:59 AM, Dr. Mark Bugeja MD <marcusfb@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I am able to process these files with Sony Soundforge. This software does
> not come free though. I need to simply copy and paste. So it is as easy as
> a-b-c as the saying goes. It's the sheer volume of files that is of concern.
>
> Mark
>
> On 08/12/2016 14:47, Peter P. wrote:
>
> * Erich Eckner <erich@eckner.net> <erich@eckner.net> [2016-12-08 13:08]:
>
> On 08.12.2016 12:45, Peter P. wrote:
>
> * Dr. Mark Bugeja MD <marcusfb@gmail.com> <marcusfb@gmail.com> [2016-12-08 12:00]:
>
> If Sox does not preserve loops and cues yet.... then please add that to the
> wish list. It would be very handy for several people doing serious digital
> sound processing. :-)
>
> I was thinking about the problem of markers in the file headers when
> mixing files together, as Dr. Mark is trying to do. What if the
> markers in the left channel and the right channel are not completely
> identical? I think this is a more complicated task than just copying
> input file markers to the output file when mixing.
>
> Hi,
>
> in that case I would propose to issue a warning and copy the markers
> from one source - this can be achieved without understanding the markers.
> A more elaborate solution could use both markers, but ommit markers
> which are too close together. This, however requires extracting and
> understanding the information of the markers.
>
> Thanks for your Ideas Erich!
>
> As someone else already said it is not precisely known how sox handles
> markers, and I don't feel that it should become a marker editing/merging
> application. Speaking of that, is anyone aware of audio editors / DAW
> that do precisely that, eg. displaying markers and allowing user to
> edit/rename them, espeicllay on linux?
>
> Thanks!
> Peter
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Dr. Mark Bugeja MD]

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Thanks Rick.

Whilst the software you mention looks interesting, it does not appear to 
carry the features I am looking for ie merging 2 mono wav files into one 
without losing loop and marker data.

Mark

On 08/12/2016 15:45, RT wrote:
> You may want to look into Octave which is like a free version of 
> Matlab I use it to batch process / create 1000's of audio files at 
> once.  The time this takes will vary on the length and bit rate of 
> your file.
>
> Here's some simple examples.
>
> http://homepages.udayton.edu/~hardierc/ece203/sound.htm 
> <http://homepages.udayton.edu/%7Ehardierc/ece203/sound.htm>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 8:59 AM, Dr. Mark Bugeja MD <marcusfb@gmail.com 
> <mailto:marcusfb@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I am able to process these files with Sony Soundforge. This
>     software does not come free though. I need to simply copy and
>     paste. So it is as easy as a-b-c as the saying goes. It's the
>     sheer volume of files that is of concern.
>
>     Mark
>
>
>     On 08/12/2016 14:47, Peter P. wrote:
>>     * Erich Eckner<erich@eckner.net> <mailto:erich@eckner.net>  [2016-12-08 13:08]:
>>>     On 08.12.2016 12:45, Peter P. wrote:
>>>>     * Dr. Mark Bugeja MD<marcusfb@gmail.com> <mailto:marcusfb@gmail.com>  [2016-12-08 12:00]:
>>>>>     If Sox does not preserve loops and cues yet.... then please add that to the
>>>>>     wish list. It would be very handy for several people doing serious digital
>>>>>     sound processing. :-)
>>>>     I was thinking about the problem of markers in the file headers when
>>>>     mixing files together, as Dr. Mark is trying to do. What if the
>>>>     markers in the left channel and the right channel are not completely
>>>>     identical? I think this is a more complicated task than just copying
>>>>     input file markers to the output file when mixing.
>>>     Hi,
>>>
>>>     in that case I would propose to issue a warning and copy the markers
>>>     from one source - this can be achieved without understanding the markers.
>>>     A more elaborate solution could use both markers, but ommit markers
>>>     which are too close together. This, however requires extracting and
>>>     understanding the information of the markers.
>>     Thanks for your Ideas Erich!
>>
>>     As someone else already said it is not precisely known how sox handles
>>     markers, and I don't feel that it should become a marker editing/merging
>>     application. Speaking of that, is anyone aware of audio editors / DAW
>>     that do precisely that, eg. displaying markers and allowing user to
>>     edit/rename them, espeicllay on linux?
>>
>>     Thanks!
>>     Peter
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>     With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Jeremy Nicoll - ml sox users]

On 2016-12-08 17:56, Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:
> Thanks Rick.
> 
> Whilst the software you mention looks interesting, it does not appear
> to carry the features I am looking for ie merging 2 mono wav files
> into one without losing loop and marker data.

But it might offer a way of extracting marker data from an audio file 
that contains such?

Your bat file might need to examine aspects of the left & right files 
(perhaps via soxi
or the stat/stats effects), eg checking (for the sake of sanity) that 
each file has the
same number of samples, and perhaps approximately the same dynamic 
level.  It might need
to run other commands to extract marker data from both files and (say) 
check that those
values are the same.  Then it might want to use sox to merge the audio 
data.  And then
after that it might want to use some other tool to place the marker data 
back into the
merged file.

You shouldn't expect that all of this can be done in one step.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own

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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Jan Stary]

On Dec 08 09:45:38, ratulloch@gmail.com wrote:
> You may want to look into Octave which is like a free version of Matlab I
> use it to batch process / create 1000's of audio files at once.  The time
> this takes will vary on the length and bit rate of your file.
> 
> http://homepages.udayton.edu/~hardierc/ece203/sound.htm
> 

I have so far ignored Octave a a sound processor.
I believe it does process audio samples just fine,
as it does process any other number data (including
the fine points of harmonic analysis and whatnot),
but does it support makers in audio files?
(i.e. does it save Mark's problem?)


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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Jan Stary]

On Dec 08 14:59:17, marcusfb@gmail.com wrote:
> I am able to process these files with Sony Soundforge. This software does
> not come free though. I need to simply copy and paste.

Copy and paste what, exactly?
Do you copy the left and the right channel
into the newly created stereo file?
And the stereo file has both all the markers
of the original left channel and all the markers
of the original right channels? (Mostly duplicate
of each other if I understand correctly?)


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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Dr. Mark Bugeja MD]

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I select the entire channel in one file, copy then paste into the other, 
Save.... keeping the name corresponding to the mono sample (overwriting 
the original mono file).


On 09/12/2016 14:58, Jan Stary wrote:
> On Dec 08 14:59:17, marcusfb@gmail.com wrote:
>> I am able to process these files with Sony Soundforge. This software does
>> not come free though. I need to simply copy and paste.
> Copy and paste what, exactly?
> Do you copy the left and the right channel
> into the newly created stereo file?
> And the stereo file has both all the markers
> of the original left channel and all the markers
> of the original right channels? (Mostly duplicate
> of each other if I understand correctly?)
>
>
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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Stuart Bruce]

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Forgive me dipping into a conversation I know little about, but if the
process really is as repetitive as that, can it be reduced to a series of
keyboard operations? If so, could it be a job for a macro such as
AutoHotkey ( www.autohotkey.com )?

Just a suggestion, my apologies if it's not helpful or has already been
tried.

Stuart


On 9 December 2016 at 14:14, Dr. Mark Bugeja MD <marcusfb@gmail.com> wrote:

> I select the entire channel in one file, copy then paste into the other,
> Save.... keeping the name corresponding to the mono sample (overwriting the
> original mono file).
>
-- 
Stuart Bruce - stuart@stuartbruce.co.uk - www.stuartbruce.co.uk

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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Dr. Mark Bugeja MD]

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Interesting..... interesting indeed. Off to try it!

Mark


On 09/12/2016 16:38, Stuart Bruce wrote:
> Forgive me dipping into a conversation I know little about, but if the 
> process really is as repetitive as that, can it be reduced to a series 
> of keyboard operations? If so, could it be a job for a macro such as 
> AutoHotkey ( www.autohotkey.com <http://www.autohotkey.com> )?
>
> Just a suggestion, my apologies if it's not helpful or has already 
> been tried.
>
> Stuart
>
>
> On 9 December 2016 at 14:14, Dr. Mark Bugeja MD <marcusfb@gmail.com 
> <mailto:marcusfb@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I select the entire channel in one file, copy then paste into the
>     other, Save.... keeping the name corresponding to the mono sample
>     (overwriting the original mono file).
>
> -- 
> Stuart Bruce - stuart@stuartbruce.co.uk 
> <mailto:stuart@stuartbruce.co.uk> - www.stuartbruce.co.uk 
> <http://www.stuartbruce.co.uk>
>
>
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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Dr. Mark Bugeja MD]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1514 bytes --]

Nothing comes easy. :-(


On 09/12/2016 16:38, Stuart Bruce wrote:
> Forgive me dipping into a conversation I know little about, but if the 
> process really is as repetitive as that, can it be reduced to a series 
> of keyboard operations? If so, could it be a job for a macro such as 
> AutoHotkey ( www.autohotkey.com <http://www.autohotkey.com> )?
>
> Just a suggestion, my apologies if it's not helpful or has already 
> been tried.
>
> Stuart
>
>
> On 9 December 2016 at 14:14, Dr. Mark Bugeja MD <marcusfb@gmail.com 
> <mailto:marcusfb@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I select the entire channel in one file, copy then paste into the
>     other, Save.... keeping the name corresponding to the mono sample
>     (overwriting the original mono file).
>
> -- 
> Stuart Bruce - stuart@stuartbruce.co.uk 
> <mailto:stuart@stuartbruce.co.uk> - www.stuartbruce.co.uk 
> <http://www.stuartbruce.co.uk>
>
>
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>
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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Dr. Mark Bugeja MD]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2218 bytes --]

If loops are not identical they would be useless and would have to be 
re-done eg with Loopauditioneer (also a free program on souceforge).


On 08/12/2016 14:47, Peter P. wrote:
> * Erich Eckner <erich@eckner.net> [2016-12-08 13:08]:
>> On 08.12.2016 12:45, Peter P. wrote:
>>> * Dr. Mark Bugeja MD <marcusfb@gmail.com> [2016-12-08 12:00]:
>>>> If Sox does not preserve loops and cues yet.... then please add that to the
>>>> wish list. It would be very handy for several people doing serious digital
>>>> sound processing. :-)
>>> I was thinking about the problem of markers in the file headers when
>>> mixing files together, as Dr. Mark is trying to do. What if the
>>> markers in the left channel and the right channel are not completely
>>> identical? I think this is a more complicated task than just copying
>>> input file markers to the output file when mixing.
>> Hi,
>>
>> in that case I would propose to issue a warning and copy the markers
>> from one source - this can be achieved without understanding the markers.
>> A more elaborate solution could use both markers, but ommit markers
>> which are too close together. This, however requires extracting and
>> understanding the information of the markers.
> Thanks for your Ideas Erich!
>
> As someone else already said it is not precisely known how sox handles
> markers, and I don't feel that it should become a marker editing/merging
> application. Speaking of that, is anyone aware of audio editors / DAW
> that do precisely that, eg. displaying markers and allowing user to
> edit/rename them, espeicllay on linux?
>
> Thanks!
> Peter
>
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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Jan Stary]

On Dec 08 15:08:40, marcusfb@gmail.com wrote:
> If loops are not identical they would be useless.

Well, I can imagine instruments where the left and right channel
behave differently even in respect to attack and release etc.
Think Pat Metheny's Orchestrion and other weirdnesses?

But this mostly points to how strange it is what you need to do:
there was an original "stereo version" of what you have
on your hands now, right?

	Jan


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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Dr. Mark Bugeja MD]

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Yes. The person who was processing these files died 14 months ago so 
there is no way we can get the files he was working on. We're luck to 
have the rest of the instrument where most of the ranks are in combined 
stereo. It's just these few folders that were different but between them 
there are 4000+ mono files that must be processed to produce the 2000+ 
stereo files we need.

I must add that the mono samples are really stereo.... one channel 
having been deleted and therefore blank and saved as the other channel 
in a separate stereo file with the opposite channel being blank.


On 09/12/2016 15:05, Jan Stary wrote:
> On Dec 08 15:08:40, marcusfb@gmail.com wrote:
>> If loops are not identical they would be useless.
> Well, I can imagine instruments where the left and right channel
> behave differently even in respect to attack and release etc.
> Think Pat Metheny's Orchestrion and other weirdnesses?
>
> But this mostly points to how strange it is what you need to do:
> there was an original "stereo version" of what you have
> on your hands now, right?
>
> 	Jan
>
>
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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Jan Stary]

> > in that case I would propose to issue a warning and copy the markers
> > from one source - this can be achieved without understanding the markers.
> > A more elaborate solution could use both markers, but ommit markers
> > which are too close together. This, however requires extracting and
> > understanding the information of the markers.
> 
> As someone else already said it is not precisely known how sox handles
> markers, and I don't feel that it should become a marker editing/merging
> application.

SoX ignores them when writing the output.

Recently, new maintainers of SoX have kinda been established
- do they have an opinion on this? I believe keeping the markers
should not be much different from keeping the ID3 tags and other
extras from the headers. (Not to play down the work to do.)

	Jan


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Re: Sox marker handling Was: Re: merging mono files

[Måns Rullgård]

Jan Stary <hans@stare.cz> writes:

>> > in that case I would propose to issue a warning and copy the markers
>> > from one source - this can be achieved without understanding the markers.
>> > A more elaborate solution could use both markers, but ommit markers
>> > which are too close together. This, however requires extracting and
>> > understanding the information of the markers.
>> 
>> As someone else already said it is not precisely known how sox handles
>> markers, and I don't feel that it should become a marker editing/merging
>> application.
>
> SoX ignores them when writing the output.
>
> Recently, new maintainers of SoX have kinda been established
> - do they have an opinion on this? I believe keeping the markers
> should not be much different from keeping the ID3 tags and other
> extras from the headers. (Not to play down the work to do.)

Preserving unknown chunks when the input and output file formats are the
same is of course fairly simple and sometimes useful.  However, there is
no way of knowing whether whatever processing was done invalidated the
information contained therein.  For example, if the sample rate was
changed, any reference to sample numbers would need adjusting.
Likewise, if the audio has been trimmed or padded, time references will
need shifting.  And so on.

The safe choice here is to add an option to pass through specific header
chunks.  That way, the user can request it if he/she knows it to be safe.

Copying ID3 tags is generally safe since very few, if any, are directly
dependent on the actual audio samples.  Of course, depending on what
processing has been done, calling it by the original title may no longer
be accurate, but it won't affect the correct downstream processing of
the audio data.

-- 
Måns Rullgård

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