* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward [not found] <mailman.79.1569168040.13821.libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> @ 2019-09-22 17:23 ` Cinder Roxley 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Cinder Roxley @ 2019-09-22 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 894 bytes --] On September 22, 2019 at 11:04:46 AM: Given the extent to which recent discussions demonstrate misunderstandings about membership status, it doesn't feel correct for the FSF to continue using the term "associate member", as this term and the marketing around it (phrases like "Renew your membership!") appear to be giving people an inaccurate understanding of their status. “Associate membership” is the correct term for what is being offered. An Associate Member is defined as "a person who is a member of a club, organization, etc. but only has partial rights and privileges or subordinate status.” [1] You would be hard pressed to find *any* organization that gives associate members voting rights much less selection of board members. If the term is being misconstrued, the blame can be assigned to assumptions made based in ignorance. [1] Harper-Collins Dictionary [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 923 bytes --] On September 22, 2019 at 11:04:46 AM: Given the extent to which recent discussions demonstrate misunderstandings about membership status, it doesn't feel correct for the FSF to continue using the term "associate member", as this term and the marketing around it (phrases like "Renew your membership!") appear to be giving people an inaccurate understanding of their status. “Associate membership” is the correct term for what is being offered. An Associate Member is defined as "a person who is a member of a club, organization, etc. but only has partial rights and privileges or subordinate status.” [1] You would be hard pressed to find *any* organization that gives associate members voting rights much less selection of board members. If the term is being misconstrued, the blame can be assigned to assumptions made based in ignorance. [1] Harper-Collins Dictionary [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* membership confusion, FSF way forward @ 2019-09-22 15:49 Daniel Pocock 2019-09-22 16:06 ` Adrienne G. Thompson ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Daniel Pocock @ 2019-09-22 15:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss Recent discussions show a lot of confusion about FSF (associate) membership. The FSF publishes[1] copies of the financial statements The 2018 filing[2] shows that FSF has only registered 7 people as voting members and the other 1466 people only registered as volunteers. Why the distinction? Given the scale of the recent problems, a change of leadership is not just about changing the president. The existing board have supported the president through many years. Any of them could have resigned at any time if they didn't agree with his leadership. Therefore, it is my personal view that: 1. all the 1466 volunteers, associate members and any new volunteers who joined recently must be given equal voting rights. 2. the entire board resigns and the entire organization is then engaged in the election of both a new board and president. The actual resignation date could be deferred until LibrePlanet so there is time for reasoned decision making. A new president alone doesn't mean much if the existing board or staff carry on doing different things. It may take time to see just what success the president really has. People may want to know who the president will be and what their platform is before deciding to renew membership or make further donations, it is too early to decide right now. Given the extent to which recent discussions demonstrate misunderstandings about membership status, it doesn't feel correct for the FSF to continue using the term "associate member", as this term and the marketing around it (phrases like "Renew your membership!") appear to be giving people an inaccurate understanding of their status. Regards, Daniel 1. https://www.fsf.org/about/financial 2. https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/financial-statements/Form990-FY2018.pdf _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-22 15:49 Daniel Pocock @ 2019-09-22 16:06 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-22 23:16 ` Will Hill 2019-09-23 3:18 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-22 16:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Daniel Pocock; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2476 bytes --] Daniel, It is my opinion too that the membership of the FSF board needs re-evaluation. I'm off to get some rest. Sincerely Adrienne On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 10:50 AM Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote: > > Recent discussions show a lot of confusion about FSF (associate) > membership. > > The FSF publishes[1] copies of the financial statements > > The 2018 filing[2] shows that FSF has only registered 7 people as voting > members and the other 1466 people only registered as volunteers. Why > the distinction? > > Given the scale of the recent problems, a change of leadership is not > just about changing the president. The existing board have supported > the president through many years. Any of them could have resigned at > any time if they didn't agree with his leadership. > > Therefore, it is my personal view that: > > 1. all the 1466 volunteers, associate members and any new volunteers who > joined recently must be given equal voting rights. > > 2. the entire board resigns and the entire organization is then engaged > in the election of both a new board and president. > > The actual resignation date could be deferred until LibrePlanet so there > is time for reasoned decision making. > > A new president alone doesn't mean much if the existing board or staff > carry on doing different things. It may take time to see just what > success the president really has. People may want to know who the > president will be and what their platform is before deciding to renew > membership or make further donations, it is too early to decide right now. > > Given the extent to which recent discussions demonstrate > misunderstandings about membership status, it doesn't feel correct for > the FSF to continue using the term "associate member", as this term and > the marketing around it (phrases like "Renew your membership!") appear > to be giving people an inaccurate understanding of their status. > > Regards, > > Daniel > > > 1. https://www.fsf.org/about/financial > 2. https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/financial-statements/Form990-FY2018.pdf > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 3082 bytes --] Daniel, It is my opinion too that the membership of the FSF board needs re-evaluation. I'm off to get some rest. Sincerely Adrienne On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 10:50 AM Daniel Pocock <[1]daniel@pocock.pro> wrote: Recent discussions show a lot of confusion about FSF (associate) membership. The FSF publishes[1] copies of the financial statements The 2018 filing[2] shows that FSF has only registered 7 people as voting members and the other 1466 people only registered as volunteers. Why the distinction? Given the scale of the recent problems, a change of leadership is not just about changing the president. The existing board have supported the president through many years. Any of them could have resigned at any time if they didn't agree with his leadership. Therefore, it is my personal view that: 1. all the 1466 volunteers, associate members and any new volunteers who joined recently must be given equal voting rights. 2. the entire board resigns and the entire organization is then engaged in the election of both a new board and president. The actual resignation date could be deferred until LibrePlanet so there is time for reasoned decision making. A new president alone doesn't mean much if the existing board or staff carry on doing different things. It may take time to see just what success the president really has. People may want to know who the president will be and what their platform is before deciding to renew membership or make further donations, it is too early to decide right now. Given the extent to which recent discussions demonstrate misunderstandings about membership status, it doesn't feel correct for the FSF to continue using the term "associate member", as this term and the marketing around it (phrases like "Renew your membership!") appear to be giving people an inaccurate understanding of their status. Regards, Daniel 1. [2]https://www.fsf.org/about/financial 2. [3]https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/financial-statements/Form990-FY2018. pdf _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus s -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - [6]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - [7]http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - [8]http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph References 1. mailto:daniel@pocock.pro 2. https://www.fsf.org/about/financial 3. https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/financial-statements/Form990-FY2018.pdf 4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 6. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 7. http://codeartnow.com/ 8. http://www.abertheid.info/ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-22 15:49 Daniel Pocock 2019-09-22 16:06 ` Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-22 23:16 ` Will Hill 2019-09-22 23:54 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-23 15:22 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-23 3:18 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Will Hill @ 2019-09-22 23:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss On Sunday 22 September 2019, Daniel Pocock wrote: > all the 1466 volunteers, associate members and any new volunteers who > joined recently must be given equal voting rights. The next day, Bill Gates would have 20,000 Microsoft employees join as voting members. For the low price of $40,000/month, Bill Gates would own the FSF and I'd vote by dropping my membership. _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-22 23:16 ` Will Hill @ 2019-09-22 23:54 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-22 23:55 ` Caleb Herbert 2019-09-23 0:00 ` Daniel Pocock 2019-09-23 15:22 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 1 sibling, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-22 23:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Will Hill; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 929 bytes --] On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 6:19 PM Will Hill <will.hillnotes@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sunday 22 September 2019, Daniel Pocock wrote: > > all the 1466 volunteers, associate members and any new volunteers who > > joined recently must be given equal voting rights. > > The next day, Bill Gates would have 20,000 Microsoft employees join as > voting > members. For the low price of $40,000/month, Bill Gates would own the FSF > and I'd vote by dropping my membership. They wouldn't just be Microsoft employees either. All the corporate empires could participate. There would be no need to take down the FSF President in the manner in which they've done. The era of Free Software (as we know it) would be over. Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 1160 bytes --] On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 6:19 PM Will Hill <[1]will.hillnotes@gmail.com> wrote: On Sunday 22 September 2019, Daniel Pocock wrote: > all the 1466 volunteers, associate members and any new volunteers who > joined recently must be given equal voting rights. The next day, Bill Gates would have 20,000 Microsoft employees join as voting members. For the low price of $40,000/month, Bill Gates would own the FSF and I'd vote by dropping my membership. They wouldn't just be Microsoft employees either. All the corporate empires could participate. There would be no need to take down the FSF President in the manner in which they've done. The era of Free Software (as we know it) would be over. Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph References 1. mailto:will.hillnotes@gmail.com 2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 3. http://codeartnow.com/ 4. http://www.abertheid.info/ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-22 23:54 ` Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-22 23:55 ` Caleb Herbert 2019-09-23 6:36 ` Félicien Pillot 2019-09-23 0:00 ` Daniel Pocock 1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Caleb Herbert @ 2019-09-22 23:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 127 bytes --] Just because you have no vote does not mean you are not heard. -- Caleb Herbert KE0VVT 816-892-9669 https://bluehome.net/csh [-- Attachment #2: csh.vcf --] [-- Type: text/x-vcard, Size: 275 bytes --] begin:vcard fn:Caleb Herbert n:Herbert;Caleb adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America email;internet:csh@bluehome.net tel;home:816-869-3111 tel;cell:816-892-9669 note:KE0VVT x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:https://bluehome.net/csh/ version:2.1 end:vcard [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-22 23:55 ` Caleb Herbert @ 2019-09-23 6:36 ` Félicien Pillot 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Félicien Pillot @ 2019-09-23 6:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Caleb Herbert; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss Caleb Herbert <csh@bluehome.net> writes: > Just because you have no vote does not mean you are not heard. This is right. RMS himself asked (at least to me, but I am sure also to others) to make our voice as associate members, heard by the FSF. Precisely, he said: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > If you wish, speaking as an associate member, you can tell the > organization something about how you would like it to carry on. > Such a statement does NOT require making any threats to stop > contributing. -- Félicien Pillot 2C7C ACC0 FBDB ADBA E7BC 50D9 043C D143 6C87 9372 felicien@gnu.org - felicien.pillot@riseup.net _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-22 23:54 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-22 23:55 ` Caleb Herbert @ 2019-09-23 0:00 ` Daniel Pocock 1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Daniel Pocock @ 2019-09-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss On 23/09/2019 01:54, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote: > On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 6:19 PM Will Hill <[1]will.hillnotes@gmail.com> > wrote: > > On Sunday 22 September 2019, Daniel Pocock wrote: > > all the 1466 volunteers, associate members and any new volunteers > who > > joined recently must be given equal voting rights. > The next day, Bill Gates would have 20,000 Microsoft employees join > as voting > members. For the low price of $40,000/month, Bill Gates would own > the FSF > and I'd vote by dropping my membership. > > They wouldn't just be Microsoft employees either. All the corporate > empires could participate. There would be no need to take down the FSF > President in the manner in which they've done. The era of Free Software > (as we know it) would be over. Having been a member of a number of organizations outside the free software space, I feel these problems are over-exaggerated and can be easily mitigated with the right strategies. These problems are not new by any means. The big problem for free software organizations is a DIY-culture: people refuse to get outside help and insist on re-inventing the wheel. Other organizations in other fields of endeavour have solved these problems before and FSF can learn from them. I agree with your concerns, I simply don't agree that they are an insurmountable barrier. Regards, Daniel _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-22 23:16 ` Will Hill 2019-09-22 23:54 ` Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-23 15:22 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-23 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Will Hill; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1619 bytes --] On Sun, 22 Sep 2019 18:16:01 -0500 Will Hill <will.hillnotes@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sunday 22 September 2019, Daniel Pocock wrote: > > all the 1466 volunteers, associate members and any new volunteers > > who joined recently must be given equal voting rights. > > The next day, Bill Gates would have 20,000 Microsoft employees join > as voting members. For the low price of $40,000/month, Bill Gates > would own the FSF and I'd vote by dropping my membership. > I agree 1000%. When I talked about collective efforts I was mainly thinking of the members, in terms of better coordinating people to advance the FSF's status and to advance the movement in positive ways. If members could vote on FSF decisions, the organisation would die overnight; or more likely, it would still exist but its strength would be degraded greatly. We need a strong leadership (led by RMS or someone like him) to steer the movement. -- Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-22 15:49 Daniel Pocock 2019-09-22 16:06 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-22 23:16 ` Will Hill @ 2019-09-23 3:18 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-23 5:49 ` Nishant Sharma ` (2 more replies) 2 siblings, 3 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-23 3:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Daniel Pocock; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3057 bytes --] I take issue with this: there is the issue of vetting regular members. What if a bunch of members are present who do not share the FSF's hardline stance on free software? On Sun, 22 Sep 2019 17:49:45 +0200 Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote: > > Recent discussions show a lot of confusion about FSF (associate) > membership. > > The FSF publishes[1] copies of the financial statements > > The 2018 filing[2] shows that FSF has only registered 7 people as > voting members and the other 1466 people only registered as > volunteers. Why the distinction? > > Given the scale of the recent problems, a change of leadership is not > just about changing the president. The existing board have supported > the president through many years. Any of them could have resigned at > any time if they didn't agree with his leadership. > > Therefore, it is my personal view that: > > 1. all the 1466 volunteers, associate members and any new volunteers > who joined recently must be given equal voting rights. > > 2. the entire board resigns and the entire organization is then > engaged in the election of both a new board and president. > > The actual resignation date could be deferred until LibrePlanet so > there is time for reasoned decision making. > > A new president alone doesn't mean much if the existing board or staff > carry on doing different things. It may take time to see just what > success the president really has. People may want to know who the > president will be and what their platform is before deciding to renew > membership or make further donations, it is too early to decide right > now. > > Given the extent to which recent discussions demonstrate > misunderstandings about membership status, it doesn't feel correct for > the FSF to continue using the term "associate member", as this term > and the marketing around it (phrases like "Renew your membership!") > appear to be giving people an inaccurate understanding of their > status. > > Regards, > > Daniel > > > 1. https://www.fsf.org/about/financial > 2. > https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/financial-statements/Form990-FY2018.pdf > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss -- Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-23 3:18 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-23 5:49 ` Nishant Sharma 2019-09-23 9:04 ` Daniel Pocock 2019-09-23 12:49 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Nishant Sharma @ 2019-09-23 5:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Rowe, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss, Daniel Pocock Cc: libreplanet-discuss On 23 September 2019 8:48:42 AM IST, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > >I take issue with this: there is the issue of vetting regular members. >What if a bunch of members are present who do not share the FSF's >hardline stance on free software? > I agree. The governance and other decisions should remain with the core members who believe and support the hardline stance. In comparison to democratic governance of a nation, a government doesn't ask for views / vote from every citizen on every matter. We trust our representatives to speak for us and take decisions in the best interest of the nation. Let's have faith in the board members of the FSF and at the same time keep a check on them. It is our responsibility to keep writing/talking to them to not let them deviate from the principles and ethics it was founded on and for. Regards, Nishant -- https://unmukti.in - Embedding FOSS https://hopbox.in - Networking with Free Software & Open Hardware http://charcoal.io - URL redirector for distributed squid proxies _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-23 3:18 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-23 5:49 ` Nishant Sharma @ 2019-09-23 9:04 ` Daniel Pocock 2019-09-23 16:49 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-23 12:49 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Daniel Pocock @ 2019-09-23 9:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss On 23/09/2019 05:18, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss wrote: > > I take issue with this: there is the issue of vetting regular members. > What if a bunch of members are present who do not share the FSF's > hardline stance on free software? If I understand correctly, RMS was always true to the philosophy and he may well be the gold standard. His resignation coincided with vocal pressure from certain donors and partners. So the importance of money is already getting an edge over the importance of philosophy. What you describe is a problem that is well understood and shared by many organizations. There are many articles and books about it, for example: https://sheilamargolis.com/core-culture-and-five-ps/the-five-ps-and-organizational-alignment/philosophy/ Going forward, do you think FSF will be more successful with a fear-based approach or by exploring and consulting more widely on how to ensure an enduring philosophy? With 1500 voting members, RMS may have had a third option: calling for a vote of confidence in his leadership. Sometimes a vote carried by the silent majority can be a powerful buffer against the loud criticism that appeared recently. Regards, Daniel -- Debian Developer https://danielpocock.com _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-23 9:04 ` Daniel Pocock @ 2019-09-23 16:49 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-23 19:03 ` Caleb Herbert 0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-23 16:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Daniel Pocock; +Cc: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3271 bytes --] On Mon, 23 Sep 2019 11:04:46 +0200 Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote: > On 23/09/2019 05:18, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss wrote: > > > > I take issue with this: there is the issue of vetting regular > > members. What if a bunch of members are present who do not share > > the FSF's hardline stance on free software? > > If I understand correctly, RMS was always true to the philosophy and > he may well be the gold standard. His resignation coincided with > vocal pressure from certain donors and partners. So the importance > of money is already getting an edge over the importance of philosophy. > > What you describe is a problem that is well understood and shared by > many organizations. There are many articles and books about it, for > example: > > https://sheilamargolis.com/core-culture-and-five-ps/the-five-ps-and-organizational-alignment/philosophy/ > > Going forward, do you think FSF will be more successful with a > fear-based approach or by exploring and consulting more widely on how > to ensure an enduring philosophy? Money is the main cause of fear in any movement. Fear of something to lose. This is especially true the larger you get. I can't speak for the efficacy of FSF's board of directors in terms of integrity to the movement. My experience has been that the FSF, despite taking money from some questionable sources, has maintained its integrity. At times, I've raised by eyebrows about certain members of the board. At present, I don't think the FSF is in a bad spot. Of course, my answer is always: Fuck the money. You have to stand by your convictions. This is how the free software movement started; RMS was saddened deeply by the increasing dominance of proprietary software in the hacker community. He could have gotten filthy rich, but instead he created the GNU project and the FSF. *That* is what we need. RMS has always made a point of not being paid by the FSF for instance; this means he is not influenced by whomever donates to or sponsors the FSF. He is his own person. When you have something to lose, it better be your ideology and not money. If you have money to lose, you've already lost everything. This is why I'm a perfect leader in my (albiet much smaller than the FSF) organisations, because I'm not wealthy at all. Wealth is what kills all ideological movements. You don't make progress with money; you can build bridges with money, write software with money and build infrastructure with it, but you can't buy ideology. Ideology exists in its own universe. -- Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> Company Director & Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/ Do you know you have rights? The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on and censored by the government. Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software. Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it! https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom. Registered in England, registration No. 9361826 VAT Registration No. GB202190462 Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom United Kingdom [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-23 16:49 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss @ 2019-09-23 19:03 ` Caleb Herbert 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Caleb Herbert @ 2019-09-23 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 92 bytes --] Speaking of money, where do I donate to get people to reverse engineer a site's JavaScript? [-- Attachment #2: csh.vcf --] [-- Type: text/x-vcard, Size: 275 bytes --] begin:vcard fn:Caleb Herbert n:Herbert;Caleb adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America email;internet:csh@bluehome.net tel;home:816-869-3111 tel;cell:816-892-9669 note:KE0VVT x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:https://bluehome.net/csh/ version:2.1 end:vcard [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-23 3:18 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-23 5:49 ` Nishant Sharma 2019-09-23 9:04 ` Daniel Pocock @ 2019-09-23 12:49 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-23 18:51 ` Caleb Herbert 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-23 12:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Rowe; +Cc: Daniel Pocock, libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 577 bytes --] On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 10:19 PM Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss < libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: > I take issue with this: there is the issue of vetting regular members. > What if a bunch of members are present who do not share the FSF's > hardline stance on free software? > Those who disagree with FSF policies are free to go elsewhere. Adrienne Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 790 bytes --] On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 10:19 PM Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: I take issue with this: there is the issue of vetting regular members. What if a bunch of members are present who do not share the FSF's hardline stance on free software? Those who disagree with FSF policies are free to go elsewhere. Adrienne Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 3. http://codeartnow.com/ 4. http://www.abertheid.info/ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: membership confusion, FSF way forward 2019-09-23 12:49 ` Adrienne G. Thompson @ 2019-09-23 18:51 ` Caleb Herbert 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Caleb Herbert @ 2019-09-23 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: libreplanet-discuss [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 435 bytes --] It is important to support the FSF, even though we may not agree totally with all its policies. The FSF is the only one doing work against JavaScript and other issues most developers don't care about. This is similar to vegans who are against PETA. They don't realize that PETA's size allows them to buy influence in companies to minimize use of animal products. Vegetarians can now eat the pinto beans at Chipotle thanks to PETA. [-- Attachment #2: csh.vcf --] [-- Type: text/x-vcard, Size: 275 bytes --] begin:vcard fn:Caleb Herbert n:Herbert;Caleb adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America email;internet:csh@bluehome.net tel;home:816-869-3111 tel;cell:816-892-9669 note:KE0VVT x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:https://bluehome.net/csh/ version:2.1 end:vcard [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --] _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2019-09-23 19:05 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 16+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <mailman.79.1569168040.13821.libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> 2019-09-22 17:23 ` membership confusion, FSF way forward Cinder Roxley 2019-09-22 15:49 Daniel Pocock 2019-09-22 16:06 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-22 23:16 ` Will Hill 2019-09-22 23:54 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-22 23:55 ` Caleb Herbert 2019-09-23 6:36 ` Félicien Pillot 2019-09-23 0:00 ` Daniel Pocock 2019-09-23 15:22 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-23 3:18 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-23 5:49 ` Nishant Sharma 2019-09-23 9:04 ` Daniel Pocock 2019-09-23 16:49 ` Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 2019-09-23 19:03 ` Caleb Herbert 2019-09-23 12:49 ` Adrienne G. Thompson 2019-09-23 18:51 ` Caleb Herbert
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