Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Bouke / VideoToolShed]

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Hi guys,
Trying to merge multiple mono and poly Wave files while piping (to add custom padding to each input file.)
Whatever I do, on input poly files the output channel order is totally unpredictable.

I’m using something like sox -M “| sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1” “|sox 5ch.wav” -b 24 output.wav
I would expect to get the same order of output as in the order of the input / pipe, but that does not happen.

Now, remix could fix it, but I need to know what logic behind the channel remapping is used, and I am clueless…

Thanks for any insight!

Bouke




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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Jan Stary]

On Sep 01 23:24:20, bouke@videotoolshed.com wrote:
> Hi guys,
> Trying to merge multiple mono and poly Wave files while piping (to add custom padding to each input file.)
> Whatever I do, on input poly files the output channel order is totally unpredictable.
> 
> I’m using something like sox -M “| sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1” “|sox 5ch.wav” -b 24 output.wav
> I would expect to get the same order of output as in the order of the input / pipe, but that does not happen.

What happens if you pad the files first
and then do the merge without any extra piping?

	Jan


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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Bouke (VideoToolShed)]

---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jan Stary" <hans@stare.cz>
To: <sox-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2017 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [SoX-users] Merge and pipe channel assignment madness


> On Sep 01 23:24:20, bouke@videotoolshed.com wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>> Trying to merge multiple mono and poly Wave files while piping (to add 
>> custom padding to each input file.)
>> Whatever I do, on input poly files the output channel order is totally 
>> unpredictable.
>>
>> I’m using something like sox -M “| sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1” “|sox 
>> 5ch.wav” -b 24 output.wav
>> I would expect to get the same order of output as in the order of the 
>> input / pipe, but that does not happen.
>
> What happens if you pad the files first
> and then do the merge without any extra piping?

Hi Jan,
That would create a lot of temp files, and take time.
However, I think I have it resolved by putting all inputs as mono into a 
(very long) pipe:
eg
sox - M “| sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1 remix 1" “| sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1 remix 2" “| 
sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1 remix 3" “| sox 5ch.wav -p pad 1 remix 1 ...... etc...

That seems to do the trick!

thx,
Bouke

> Jan
> 

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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Jan Stary]

On Sep 01 23:24:20, bouke@videotoolshed.com wrote:
> Hi guys,
> Trying to merge multiple mono and poly Wave files while piping (to add custom padding to each input file.)
> Whatever I do, on input poly files the output channel order is totally unpredictable.
> 
> I’m using something like sox -M “| sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1” “|sox 5ch.wav” -b 24 output.wav
> I would expect to get the same order of output as in the order of the input / pipe, but that does not happen.

I cannot reproduce this behaviour.

  $ sox -n poly.wav synth 5 sin 200 sin 300 sin 400 
  $ sox -n next.wav synth 5 sin 400 sin 600 sin 800 
  $ sox -M "|sox poly.wav -p pad 1" "|sox next.wav -p pad 1" output.wav
 
This creates a six-channel file with channels ordered as I would expect:
channel one from poly.wav, channel two from poly.wav, up to channel three
from next.wav. I verified that with listening to

  $ play output remix 1
  $ play output remix 2
  $ play output remix 3
  $ play output remix 4
  $ play output remix 5
  $ play output remix 6

What version of SoX are you using?
Does it also happen with the current version?

Can you please upload two of your multichannel files
so that I can reproduce exactly what you are doing?

	Jan


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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Bouke / VideoToolShed]

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> On 05 Sep 2017, at 17:17, Jan Stary <hans@stare.cz> wrote:
> 
> On Sep 01 23:24:20, bouke@videotoolshed.com wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>> Trying to merge multiple mono and poly Wave files while piping (to add custom padding to each input file.)
>> Whatever I do, on input poly files the output channel order is totally unpredictable.
>> 
>> I’m using something like sox -M “| sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1” “|sox 5ch.wav” -b 24 output.wav
>> I would expect to get the same order of output as in the order of the input / pipe, but that does not happen.
> 
> I cannot reproduce this behaviour.
> 
Hi Jan,
> 
> What version of SoX are you using?
> Does it also happen with the current version

Hi Jan,
If you like, try this:
Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox -M "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 0" "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 1" -b 24 J:\Torsten\tst\output.wav

The file has ch1 (a bit) static, ch2 silence, ch3 voice
On merge, the input tracks are reversed (but other files behave random.)
File can be downloaded here:
https://we.tl/4XNMXikv0J <https://we.tl/4XNMXikv0J>

Thx!
Bouke


> Can you please upload two of your multichannel files
> so that I can reproduce exactly what you are doing?
> 
> 	Jan
> 
> 
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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Jan Stary]

> >> Trying to merge multiple mono and poly Wave files while piping (to add custom padding to each input file.)
> >> Whatever I do, on input poly files the output channel order is totally unpredictable.
> >> 
> >> I’m using something like sox -M “| sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1” “|sox 5ch.wav” -b 24 output.wav
> >> I would expect to get the same order of output as in the order of the input / pipe, but that does not happen.
> > 
> > I cannot reproduce this behaviour.
> > 
> > What version of SoX are you using?
> > Does it also happen with the current version

> https://we.tl/4XNMXikv0J
> Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox -M "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 0" "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 1" -b 24 J:\Torsten\tst\output.wav
> 
> The file has ch1 (a bit) static, ch2 silence, ch3 voice
> On merge, the input tracks are reversed (but other files behave random.)

With my installation of SoX, running

	$ sox -M "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 0" "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 1" output.wav

creates an output file with 6 channels, containing (in this order):

	1 static
	2 silence
	3 voice
	4 static
	5 silence
	6 voice

so I still cannot reproduce your problem.
I also tried with the "-b 24" which should be irrelevant - no change.

Can you please also upload your output file?

	Jan


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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Bouke / VideoToolShed]

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> On 07 Sep 2017, at 17:51, Jan Stary <hans@stare.cz> wrote:
> 
>>>> Trying to merge multiple mono and poly Wave files while piping (to add custom padding to each input file.)
>>>> Whatever I do, on input poly files the output channel order is totally unpredictable.
>>>> 
>>>> I’m using something like sox -M “| sox 3ch.wav -p pad 1” “|sox 5ch.wav” -b 24 output.wav
>>>> I would expect to get the same order of output as in the order of the input / pipe, but that does not happen.
>>> 
>>> I cannot reproduce this behaviour.
>>> 
>>> What version of SoX are you using?
>>> Does it also happen with the current version
> 
>> https://we.tl/4XNMXikv0J
>> Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox -M "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 0" "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 1" -b 24 J:\Torsten\tst\output.wav
>> 
>> The file has ch1 (a bit) static, ch2 silence, ch3 voice
>> On merge, the input tracks are reversed (but other files behave random.)
> 
> With my installation of SoX, running
> 
> 	$ sox -M "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 0" "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 1" output.wav
> 
> creates an output file with 6 channels, containing (in this order):
> 
> 	1 static
> 	2 silence
> 	3 voice
> 	4 static
> 	5 silence
> 	6 voice

Hi Jan,
Yeah, that’s what I would expect :-)

> so I still cannot reproduce your problem.
> I also tried with the "-b 24" which should be irrelevant - no change.
> 
> Can you please also upload your output file?

Sure, here you go:
Download link
https://we.tl/lRpO2tMTxu <https://we.tl/lRpO2tMTxu>

I must say, I’ve only checked in Audacity, but I doubt that would matter...
Btw, I’ve only tested on Windows (7, but I doubt that will matter….)
Bouke

> 	Jan
> 
> 
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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Jan Stary]

> >> https://we.tl/4XNMXikv0J
> >> Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox -M "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 0" "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 1" -b 24 J:\Torsten\tst\output.wav
> >> 
> >> The file has ch1 (a bit) static, ch2 silence, ch3 voice
> >> On merge, the input tracks are reversed (but other files behave random.)
> > 
> > With my installation of SoX, running
> > 
> > 	$ sox -M "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 0" "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 1" output.wav
> > 
> > creates an output file with 6 channels, containing (in this order):
> > 
> > 	1 static
> > 	2 silence
> > 	3 voice
> > 	4 static
> > 	5 silence
> > 	6 voice
> 
> Hi Jan,
> Yeah, that’s what I would expect :-)
> 
> > so I still cannot reproduce your problem.
> > I also tried with the "-b 24" which should be irrelevant - no change.
> > 
> > Can you please also upload your output file?
> 
> Sure, here you go:
> https://we.tl/lRpO2tMTxu

Listening to this file with "play output.wav remix 1" etc, I hear:

	1 silence
	2 voice
	3 static
	4 silence
	5 voice
	6 static

Note that the channels are not "reversed" as you said, it's 2 3 1.
Can you also try with two different 3ch files to see
if it behaves consistently?

> I must say, I’ve only checked in Audacity, but I doubt that would matter...

Hm, have you done anything else to the file with Audacity?
Are you sure Audacity does not reorder the channels somehow?
Please keep it simple and only use SoX: what is your exact SoX command,
and what do you hear when listening to the individual channels with play?

Other than that, I don't have any idea why SoX
would change the order of channels at all.

> Btw, I’ve only tested on Windows (7, but I doubt that will matter….)

I don't think that would be causing it.

	Jan


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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Jan Stary]

On Sep 07 21:31:53, hans@stare.cz wrote:
> > >> https://we.tl/4XNMXikv0J
> > >> Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox -M "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 0" "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 1" -b 24 J:\Torsten\tst\output.wav
> > >> 
> > >> The file has ch1 (a bit) static, ch2 silence, ch3 voice
> > >> On merge, the input tracks are reversed (but other files behave random.)
> > > 
> > > With my installation of SoX, running
> > > 
> > > 	$ sox -M "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 0" "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 1" output.wav
> > > 
> > > creates an output file with 6 channels, containing (in this order):
> > > 
> > > 	1 static
> > > 	2 silence
> > > 	3 voice
> > > 	4 static
> > > 	5 silence
> > > 	6 voice
> > 
> > Hi Jan,
> > Yeah, that’s what I would expect :-)
> > 
> > > so I still cannot reproduce your problem.
> > > I also tried with the "-b 24" which should be irrelevant - no change.
> > > 
> > > Can you please also upload your output file?
> > 
> > Sure, here you go:
> > https://we.tl/lRpO2tMTxu
> 
> Listening to this file with "play output.wav remix 1" etc, I hear:
> 
> 	1 silence
> 	2 voice
> 	3 static
> 	4 silence
> 	5 voice
> 	6 static
> 
> Note that the channels are not "reversed" as you said, it's 2 3 1.
> Can you also try with two different 3ch files to see
> if it behaves consistently?
> 
> > I must say, I’ve only checked in Audacity, but I doubt that would matter...

Just to be sure: using Audacity, you do hear the very same
in the channels as I describe above, right?


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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Bouke / VideoToolShed]

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> On 08 Sep 2017, at 10:02, Jan Stary <hans@stare.cz> wrote:
> 
> On Sep 07 21:31:53, hans@stare.cz <mailto:hans@stare.cz> wrote:
>>>>> https://we.tl/4XNMXikv0J
>>>>> Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox -M "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 0" "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 1" -b 24 J:\Torsten\tst\output.wav
>>>>> 
>>>>> The file has ch1 (a bit) static, ch2 silence, ch3 voice
>>>>> On merge, the input tracks are reversed (but other files behave random.)
>>>> 
>>>> With my installation of SoX, running
>>>> 
>>>> 	$ sox -M "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 0" "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 1" output.wav
>>>> 
>>>> creates an output file with 6 channels, containing (in this order):
>>>> 
>>>> 	1 static
>>>> 	2 silence
>>>> 	3 voice
>>>> 	4 static
>>>> 	5 silence
>>>> 	6 voice
>>> 
>>> Hi Jan,
>>> Yeah, that’s what I would expect :-)
>>> 
>>>> so I still cannot reproduce your problem.
>>>> I also tried with the "-b 24" which should be irrelevant - no change.
>>>> 
>>>> Can you please also upload your output file?
>>> 
>>> Sure, here you go:
>>> https://we.tl/lRpO2tMTxu
>> 
>> Listening to this file with "play output.wav remix 1" etc, I hear:
>> 
>> 	1 silence
>> 	2 voice
>> 	3 static
>> 	4 silence
>> 	5 voice
>> 	6 static
>> 
>> Note that the channels are not "reversed" as you said, it's 2 3 1.
>> Can you also try with two different 3ch files to see
>> if it behaves consistently?
>> 
>>> I must say, I’ve only checked in Audacity, but I doubt that would matter...
> 
> Just to be sure: using Audacity, you do hear the very same
> in the channels as I describe above, right?
> 

Hi Jan,
I’ve tested also Avid and WaveAgent,
Output is definitely wrong!
I’ll test some more and look at it with a HEX editor, see if samples are missing.
(But I need to generate some testfiles first…)

Bouke


> 
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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Jan Stary]

On Sep 08 17:05:25, bouke@videotoolshed.com wrote:
> 
> 
> > On 08 Sep 2017, at 10:02, Jan Stary <hans@stare.cz> wrote:
> > 
> > On Sep 07 21:31:53, hans@stare.cz <mailto:hans@stare.cz> wrote:
> >>>>> https://we.tl/4XNMXikv0J
> >>>>> Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox -M "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 0" "| Y:\sox-14-4-2\sox J:\Torsten\tst\T72.WAV -p pad 1" -b 24 J:\Torsten\tst\output.wav
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> The file has ch1 (a bit) static, ch2 silence, ch3 voice
> >>>>> On merge, the input tracks are reversed (but other files behave random.)
> >>>> 
> >>>> With my installation of SoX, running
> >>>> 
> >>>> 	$ sox -M "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 0" "|sox T72.WAV -p pad 1" output.wav
> >>>> 
> >>>> creates an output file with 6 channels, containing (in this order):
> >>>> 
> >>>> 	1 static
> >>>> 	2 silence
> >>>> 	3 voice
> >>>> 	4 static
> >>>> 	5 silence
> >>>> 	6 voice
> >>> 
> >>> Hi Jan,
> >>> Yeah, that’s what I would expect :-)
> >>> 
> >>>> so I still cannot reproduce your problem.
> >>>> I also tried with the "-b 24" which should be irrelevant - no change.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Can you please also upload your output file?
> >>> 
> >>> Sure, here you go:
> >>> https://we.tl/lRpO2tMTxu
> >> 
> >> Listening to this file with "play output.wav remix 1" etc, I hear:
> >> 
> >> 	1 silence
> >> 	2 voice
> >> 	3 static
> >> 	4 silence
> >> 	5 voice
> >> 	6 static
> >> 
> >> Note that the channels are not "reversed" as you said, it's 2 3 1.
> >> Can you also try with two different 3ch files to see
> >> if it behaves consistently?
> >> 
> >>> I must say, I’ve only checked in Audacity, but I doubt that would matter...
> > 
> > Just to be sure: using Audacity, you do hear the very same
> > in the channels as I describe above, right?
> > 
> 

> I’ve tested also Avid and WaveAgent,
> Output is definitely wrong!

I'll repeat the question: do you hear the same
in the individual channels as I describe above?

> (But I need to generate some testfiles first…)

No, use the file you sent me,
so that we listen to the same thing.
https://we.tl/lRpO2tMTxu

	Jan


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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Jeremy Nicoll - ml sox users]

On 2017-09-08 16:53, Jan Stary wrote:

> I'll repeat the question: do you hear the same
> in the individual channels as I describe above?
> 
>> (But I need to generate some testfiles first…)
> 
> No, use the file you sent me,
> so that we listen to the same thing.
> https://we.tl/lRpO2tMTxu


If there's something odd going on with the way that sound is 
processed/routed on
either of your computers, 'listening' might not be the best way to 
discriminate
between behaviour on different machines.

Might it not be better to use soxi or the stat/stats effects to report 
on the
content of each channel in the multi-channel file?

That file might need rebuilt so that instead of (as I think it may have) 
different
frequencies of test tones in each channel, it has significantly 
different levels of
sound on each channel.   The isolation of each channel and stat/stats 
should show
each such channel's different peak level, and the output from those 
effects can be
listed here for everyone to see.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own

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Re: Merge and pipe channel assignment madness

[Jan Stary]

On Sep 08 23:28:35, jn.ml.sxu.88@wingsandbeaks.org.uk wrote:
> On 2017-09-08 16:53, Jan Stary wrote:
> 
> > I'll repeat the question: do you hear the same
> > in the individual channels as I describe above?
> > 
> > > (But I need to generate some testfiles first…)
> > 
> > No, use the file you sent me,
> > so that we listen to the same thing.
> > https://we.tl/lRpO2tMTxu
> 
> 
> If there's something odd going on with the way that sound is
> processed/routed on either of your computers,
> 'listening' might not be the best way to
> discriminate between behaviour on different machines.
> Might it not be better to use soxi or the stat/stats effects to report on
> the content of each channel in the multi-channel file?

No. It's three (resp. six) channels of audio that are
so apparently different (silence, scratches, speech)
that just listening to it is the easiest way to tell them apart.

> That file might need rebuilt so that instead of (as I think it may have)
> different
> frequencies of test tones in each channel, it has significantly different
> levels of
> sound on each channel.

It has completely different material in each channel.
Computing peaks/frequencies/whatnot would be completely pointless.

> The isolation of each channel and stat/stats should
> show each such channel's different peak level,
> and the output from those effects
> can be listed here for everyone to see.

The OP has already posted the actual audio output file
for everyone to see.

	Jan


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