From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Original-To: poffice@blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp Delivered-To: poffice@blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp Received: from kankan.nagaokaut.ac.jp (kankan.nagaokaut.ac.jp [133.44.2.24]) by blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87D119E002C for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:37:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from voscc.nagaokaut.ac.jp (voscc.nagaokaut.ac.jp [133.44.1.100]) by kankan.nagaokaut.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32BCFB5D853 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:11:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from neon.ruby-lang.org (neon.ruby-lang.org [221.186.184.75]) by voscc.nagaokaut.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE2818CC7D0 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:11:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from [221.186.184.76] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by neon.ruby-lang.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A073F1204C0; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:11:17 +0900 (JST) X-Original-To: ruby-core@ruby-lang.org Delivered-To: ruby-core@ruby-lang.org Received: from mail-oi0-f54.google.com (mail-oi0-f54.google.com [209.85.218.54]) by neon.ruby-lang.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74FC4120483 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:11:12 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-oi0-f54.google.com with SMTP id o124so79825008oia.3 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 19:11:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=/2Fz4wwqva8h0dYv4kOACHj6wOM/Yk49AZ1Kp66/L90=; b=XAQbazyheBX9WGAF0tX2RR/yV8FXGGe4vnTE1sQo592G4kttLyg3y//3ForNjS7047 cM/1IfGr+noSMaSNdL7jqmU3fcrDpucgUPSnHWBmHiPPzVudKPq18tIhRChQGM2hNY1/ 181GayyF4owTxVe1E3oK+dw7XTYx6Ropx+ZnON9NFCO0TV+0+1N0xrVEiz9wqpTKe7XK pxNmphEdGFV1y8O9AROeGoTaFzbE6niPIsVg3nN+2zRTEpfkE02HhNTTTEu+Ls0SmPYx xshiyvXUHd3kU6Bgb3AS97eF6YnZJ+nt7UteF4jOlwhciGspLiyxUshRnf2gmhiBmQpd 4PdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=/2Fz4wwqva8h0dYv4kOACHj6wOM/Yk49AZ1Kp66/L90=; b=Rgyt5yWQXCTtOOGBaNj1mJiykrkJuiDgLrWCQRy1NRpLrnTFR4RQGRTtcYQu27MxiP ILysieu/khlgbftlwHVvkv8sQN627SdKV2Yt+zJ6sn8kKZfPSa3+J+x5XII6KGekXDjH 8GAjU/b8q9TzcBz0rPs7UwQh7SElXJ4Ngd5xDw6QQaTkqznZ5ulwXaO01QylGG8RB3YZ piwSoQ6uxyNqlGmrOgl0lYt3XcKCavZ0WOdq2b5jLOCssH163IEZuux5f67/oIV9eCbD 4oYc0gxM8MYliTwoqyzy0hx68/ZrO2o6ra4Evw+ebh+9kMAWj4IeTq9VrvydGtB7tU25 kTKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YORAuLbDHaj68BEw7KO9bI37AbvwA2vu46puAeKVJaGGco8ob6q/OK5y3wP9SkMN1WVWiB07rp2ZblBzLg== X-Received: by 10.202.213.78 with SMTP id m75mr11364291oig.56.1453691470225; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 19:11:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.211.72 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Jan 2016 19:10:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Austin Ziegler Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 22:10:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ruby developers X-ML-Name: ruby-core X-Mail-Count: 73391 Subject: [ruby-core:73391] Re: [Ruby trunk - Misc #12004] Code of Conduct X-BeenThere: ruby-core@ruby-lang.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ruby developers List-Id: Ruby developers List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0100153093==" Errors-To: ruby-core-bounces@ruby-lang.org Sender: "ruby-core" --===============0100153093== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113aca4eb22735052a1feb26 --001a113aca4eb22735052a1feb26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 3:48 PM, wrote: > Issue #12004 has been updated by ph ph. > > Coraline Ada Ehmke wrote: > > Suggested draft for community guidelines. I've tried to incorporate > language that other people have suggested without losing any context or > important criteria. > > > > -- > > > > =3D=3D Ruby Community Guidelines =3D=3D > > > > As part of our collective culture we believe that the Ruby community > should be open and welcoming to everyone, regardless of age, body size, > disability, culture, ethnicity, gender, gender identity and expression, > level of experience, nationality, personal appearance, race, religion, or > sexual orientation. > > What on earth is "gender" VS "gender identity" VS "gender expression" ? > Gender is a person=E2=80=99s biological gender. Gender identity is the gend= er that a person identifies as; the medical condition gender dysphoria describes the situation when the biological gender does not match that of gender identity. Gender expression is how one=E2=80=99s gender is expressed visibl= y. Someone born female (gender) that identifies as male (gender identity) has gender dysphoria. They may not dress as or act male (gender expression). Asking this question is legitimate, because if one does not know anyone who has gender dysphoria, you won=E2=80=99t necessarily know these terms. If english is not the language to be used, I would suggest we switch to > Japanese. Using a language that the legitimate curator of Ruby understand > instead would seem appropriate This statement, however, is out of bounds. The words are easily searched if you actually wanted to. > > This document provides community guidelines for a safe, respectful, > productive, and collaborative place for people engaging with and > contributing to to the Ruby community. It applies to all collaborative > spaces and documents, including mailing lists, IRC, submitted patches, bi= g > reports, and pull requests. > > > > Who said providing a "safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative > place" was the priority ? > Who says that those guidelines provide a "safer, respectfuler, > productiver, and collaborativer place" > than not having this guidelines ? > A large number of people in this thread have said both of these. > * Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free of > personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks. > > What about "Audience must ensure that their ears only listen to language > and actions which they > deem to be free of personnel attacks" ? > This is called =E2=80=9Cblaming the victim=E2=80=9D. > Ruby is a programming language. There is no specific reason to be taking > extra care apart from what is > normally taken. The consensus is given by the law. Any action you will > take against the law will > be punished by the law. > If only this were true. Harassment is against the law in many countries, but investigations and enforcement actions are rarely taken largely because of biases by law enforcement=E2=80=94and handling online harassment is even= harder (consider the cases of Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu, and Zo=C3=AB Quinn as instructive on this matter). It gets even worse with international and virtual communities like Ruby=E2=80=99s. Communities (like Ruby=E2=80=99s) = are often left to police themselves. This is one of the reasons people ask for CoCs and they get support from a lot of people in a community. > * Participants must agree that the use of sexual imagery, sexual > language, and sexual > > advances are not conducive to a professional environment and must be > avoided. > > Again, those points have nothing to do with Ruby, and the various. > In Europe, breast in public at the beach are not considered sexual. > Among the victorian society you represent, it is considered so. > Now Ruby should have an opinion too ? > Even in Europe, these things are not considered acceptable in a *professional context*. Because developing Ruby is=E2=80=94for at least som= e people=E2=80=94a job, putting this sort of wording is perfectly acceptable = and understandable. On top of that given that the subtle and understandable distinction you > make yourself of "gender" VS "gender expression" VS "gender other", > byzantine discussion are guaranteed as to what is sexual and what is not. > This is disingenuous. > And honestly, your opinion on those subject are irrelevant to > Ruby the language in the first place. Take them with you, and tell them > to interested people, not to a technical community. > So=E2=80=A6what happens to people who are=E2=80=94or want to be=E2=80=94par= t of the technical community, but feel excluded because of people who mock their gender dysphoria? This means that, despite what you *incorrectly* believe, this sort of thing *is* a matter for the technical community (because while Ruby as a language is technical, the community is made of people and we should work to build people *up* rather than tear them down or allow others to tear them down). Should you persist on perturbing this technical community with your > political ideas, it will be perfectly warranted to take positive action > unambiguously opposite of the ones you are promoting, in order to > deincitize you to persist to impose your crazy ideas. > In other words, because someone thinks, acts, and feels differently than *you* (ph ph) do, you have the right to harass them and drive them out of the community. Right. > > * Participants must not publish non-public contact information about > other members of the community, including physical addresses or other > private information. > > * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a > pattern of behaviour which could reasonably be considered harassment will > not be tolerated. > > What about animal cruelty and pedophilia ? > What makes those subjects unrelated to Ruby less worthy than the other > subject > unrelated to Ruby any less worthy ? > This discussion is a sideshow. > > * Anyone asked to stop unacceptable behavior is expected to comply > immediately. > > I ask you to stop your unacceptable behavior. > Please comply immediately. > There is nothing unacceptable about asking for anti-harassment policies, except in the minds of people who are looking for reasons to enable harassers. > > Instances of abusive, harassing, or otherwise unacceptable behavior may > be reported by sending an email to [INSERT EMAIL ADDRESS]. All complaints > will be reviewed and investigated and will result in a response that is > deemed necessary and appropriate to the circumstances. Respondents are > obligated to maintain confidentiality with regard to the reporter of an > incident. > > > > Please stop abusing this technical community by polluting it with your > political ideas. > Please stop considering you entitled to be able to judge anyone. > Please be respectful of others, and the collective effort they have put i= n > having > such a wonderful language. > Please be humble enough to not think they were waiting for you to start > respecting other. > There are enough people=E2=80=94including Matz=E2=80=94who think that *a* C= ode of Conduct is a good thing. Therefore, the only abuser in the last couple of posts is you. > > We believe that by thoughtfully abiding by these community guidelines, > we help Ruby fulfill its promise to make people happy and to put the need= s > of the community first. > > You believe many things that the rest of the world does not believe > This is true. That does not mean that we, as a community, shouldn=E2=80=99t= strive to be better than we are or that we, as a community, shouldn=E2=80=99t stri= ve to be nicer. Your post, just now, is neither nice nor better. Coraline is as much a part of this community as you are, and your treatment of her is disappointing. -a --=20 Austin Ziegler =E2=80=A2 halostatue@gmail.com =E2=80=A2 austin@halostatue.c= a http://www.halostatue.ca/ =E2=80=A2 http://twitter.com/halostatue --001a113aca4eb22735052a1feb26 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 3:48 PM, <shrubby@yopmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
Issue #12004 has been updated by ph ph.

Coraline Ada Ehmke wrote:
> Suggested draft for community guidelines. I've tried to incorporat= e language that other people have suggested without losing any context or i= mportant criteria.
>
> --
>
> =3D=3D Ruby Community Guidelines =3D=3D
>
> As part of our collective culture we believe that the Ruby community s= hould be open and welcoming to everyone, regardless of age, body size, disa= bility, culture, ethnicity, gender, gender identity and expression, level o= f experience, nationality, personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual o= rientation.

What on earth is "gender"=C2=A0 VS "gender identity&q= uot; VS "gender expression" ?

Gender is a person=E2=80=99s biological gender. Gender identity is the gen= der that a person identifies as; the medical condition gender dysphoria des= cribes the situation when the biological gender does not match that of gend= er identity. Gender expression is how one=E2=80=99s gender is expressed vis= ibly. Someone born female (gender) that identifies as male (gender identity= ) has gender dysphoria. They may not dress as or act male (gender expressio= n).

Asking this question is legitimate, because if= one does not know anyone who has gender dysphoria, you won=E2=80=99t neces= sarily know these terms.

If english is not the language to be used, I would suggest we switch to Jap= anese. Using a language that the legitimate curator of Ruby understand inst= ead would seem appropriate

This statement, = however, is out of bounds. The words are easily searched if you actually wa= nted to.
=C2=A0
> This document provides community guidelines for a safe, respectful, pr= oductive, and collaborative place for people engaging with and contributing= to to the Ruby community. It applies to all collaborative spaces and docum= ents, including mailing lists, IRC, submitted patches, big reports, and pul= l requests.
>

Who said providing a "safe, respectful, productive, and collabo= rative place" was the priority ?
Who says that those guidelines provide a "safer, respectfuler, product= iver, and collaborativer place"
than not having this guidelines ?
<= div>
A large number of people in this thread have said both o= f these.

> * Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free of= personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

What about "Audience must ensure that their ears only listen to= language and actions which they
deem to be free of personnel attacks" ?

This is called =E2=80=9Cblaming the victim=E2=80=9D.
=C2=A0=
Ruby is a programming language. There is no specific= reason to be taking extra care apart from what is
normally taken. The consensus is given by the law. Any action you will take= against the law will
be punished by the law.

If only this we= re true. Harassment is against the law in many countries, but investigation= s and enforcement actions are rarely taken largely because of biases by law= enforcement=E2=80=94and handling online harassment is even harder (conside= r the cases of Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu, and Zo=C3=AB Quinn as instruct= ive on this matter). It gets even worse with international and virtual comm= unities like Ruby=E2=80=99s. Communities (like Ruby=E2=80=99s) are often le= ft to police themselves. This is one of the reasons people ask for CoCs and= they get support from a lot of people in a community.

=
> * Participants must agree that the u= se of sexual imagery, sexual language, and sexual
> advances are not conducive to a professional environment and must be a= voided.

Again, those points have nothing to do with Ruby, and the various. In Europe, breast in public at the beach are not considered sexual.
Among the victorian society you represent, it is considered so.
Now Ruby should have an opinion too ?

E= ven in Europe, these things are not considered acceptable in a *professiona= l context*. Because developing Ruby is=E2=80=94for at least some people=E2= =80=94a job, putting this sort of wording is perfectly acceptable and under= standable.

On top of that given that t= he subtle and understandable distinction you
make yourself of "gender" VS "gender expression" VS &qu= ot;gender other",
byzantine discussion are guaranteed as to what is sexual and what is not.

This is disingenuous.
=C2=A0
And honestly, your opinion on those subject are irrele= vant to
Ruby the language in the first place. Take them with you, and tell them
to interested people, not to a technical community.
So=E2=80=A6what happens to people who are=E2=80=94or want to b= e=E2=80=94part of the technical community, but feel excluded because of peo= ple who mock their gender dysphoria? This means that, despite what you *inc= orrectly* believe, this sort of thing *is* a matter for the technical commu= nity (because while Ruby as a language is technical, the community is made = of people and we should work to build people *up* rather than tear them dow= n or allow others to tear them down).

= Should you persist on perturbing this technical community with your
political ideas, it will be perfectly warranted to take positive action
unambiguously opposite of the ones you are promoting, in order to
deincitize you to persist to impose your crazy ideas.
=
In other words, because someone thinks, acts, and feels diff= erently than *you* (ph ph) do, you have the right to harass them and drive = them out of the community. Right.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
> * Participants must not publish non-public contac= t information about other members of the community, including physical addr= esses or other private information.
> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in = a pattern of behaviour which could reasonably be considered harassment will= not be tolerated.

What about animal cruelty and pedophilia ?
What makes those subjects unrelated to Ruby less worthy than the other subj= ect
unrelated to Ruby any less worthy ?

Thi= s discussion is a sideshow.
=C2=A0
> * Anyone asked to stop unacceptable behavior is expected to c= omply immediately.

I ask you to stop your unacceptable behavior.
Please comply immediately.
There is nothing unacceptable about asking for anti-harassment = policies, except in the minds of people who are looking for reasons to enab= le harassers.
=C2=A0
> = Instances of abusive, harassing, or otherwise unacceptable behavior may be = reported by sending an email to [INSERT EMAIL ADDRESS]. All complaints will= be reviewed and investigated and will result in a response that is deemed = necessary and appropriate to the circumstances. Respondents are obligated t= o maintain confidentiality with regard to the reporter of an incident.
>

Please stop abusing this technical community by polluting it with yo= ur political ideas.
Please stop considering you entitled to be able to judge anyone.
Please be respectful of others, and the collective effort they have put in = having
such a wonderful language.
Please be humble enough to not think they were waiting for you to start res= pecting other.

There are enough people= =E2=80=94including Matz=E2=80=94who think that *a* Code of Conduct is a goo= d thing. Therefore, the only abuser in the last couple of posts is you.
=C2=A0
> We believe that b= y thoughtfully abiding by these community guidelines, we help Ruby fulfill = its promise to make people happy and to put the needs of the community firs= t.
=C2=A0
You believe man= y things that the rest of the world does not believe

This is true. That does not mean that= we, as a community, shouldn=E2=80=99t strive to be better than we are or t= hat we, as a community, shouldn=E2=80=99t strive to be nicer. Your post, ju= st now, is neither nice nor better. Coraline is as much a part of this comm= unity as you are, and your treatment of her is disappointing.

-a
--
Austin Zieg= ler =E2=80=A2 hal= ostatue@gmail.com =E2=80=A2 austin@halostatue.ca
http://www.halostatue.ca/ =E2=80=A2 http://twitter.com/halosta= tue
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