open letter to the Community:

open letter to the Community:

[alimiracle]

open letter to the Community:

I don't know where you are now.
Maybe close to me.
Or in a distant country or outside the solar system
But I'm sure you can read this letter
"""
Hello
Do you remember me
i'm ali, a useless person as you call me
Do you remember when you were telling me "you can't do anything"
Do you remember when you were telling me "you can't Walk in this way".
Do you remember when you were telling me "you cant become a programmer".
Do you remember when you were telling me "you're useless".
Maybe you forgot everything
But I still remember
I still have memories from when I was child: no one wanted to play with
me, they would tell me things like "you're blind— we can't play with
you. Go and look for [another] blind person to play with you. You're
different from me, go away."
You stand in my face.
Whenever you make fun of me
I Become even more powerful
Because I don't want to become like another entry in the life database .
Been a long time for this events,
i grew up, and My dreams grew up with me.
People lived. People died. Programs booted. Programs -9'd. The world
spun. 
I sat. How could I? How could I? I put 10 and 10 together, and soon I
knew my mission: to code, to collaborate, to contribute.

At this time I learned a lot, and made great changes in my life
I Still walking in that way.
I walked a long distance
I fell a lot
but I Stand again.
I Fought a lot To become a programmer
and I will keep standing
I will be rising from the ground
I will be rising to the cloud,
like the plane...
now I'd like to thank you.
Without the wounds you've caused me.
I didn't have that immunity to resist.
Without underestimating my abilities.
I didn't have that kind of strength to stand up and fight

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Re: open letter to the Community:

[Lyberta]

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alimiracle@riseup.net:
> Hello
> Do you remember me
> i'm ali, a useless person as you call me
> Do you remember when you were telling me "you can't do anything"
> Do you remember when you were telling me "you can't Walk in this way".
> Do you remember when you were telling me "you cant become a programmer".
> Do you remember when you were telling me "you're useless".
Yes! Hatred and revenge. That's what keeps me going. Knowing that one
day I will kill my parents, then proceed to kill my schoolmates, then
people who create proprietary software, then capitalism, governments.

Hatred gives meaning to the meaningless existence. It keeps you going
even when you know that the only logical thing to do is to kill
yourself. But you have other people to kill first, you have to keep going.


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Re: open letter to the Community:

[Greg Farough]

Let's not even joke about suicide or doing violence to people who use the wrong kind of computer program.

On February 14, 2019 3:15:00 PM CST, Lyberta <lyberta@lyberta.net> wrote:
>alimiracle@riseup.net:
>> Hello
>> Do you remember me
>> i'm ali, a useless person as you call me
>> Do you remember when you were telling me "you can't do anything"
>> Do you remember when you were telling me "you can't Walk in this
>way".
>> Do you remember when you were telling me "you cant become a
>programmer".
>> Do you remember when you were telling me "you're useless".
>Yes! Hatred and revenge. That's what keeps me going. Knowing that one
>day I will kill my parents, then proceed to kill my schoolmates, then
>people who create proprietary software, then capitalism, governments.
>
>Hatred gives meaning to the meaningless existence. It keeps you going
>even when you know that the only logical thing to do is to kill
>yourself. But you have other people to kill first, you have to keep
>going.

-- 
-g

"A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral."
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Re: open letter to the Community:

[John Sullivan]

Greg Farough <gregf@riseup.net> writes:

> Let's not even joke about suicide or doing violence to people who use the wrong kind of computer program.
>

Agreed, and let's let this thread drop. Lyberta is now on moderation,
and I'll reach out to them further.

-john

-- 
John Sullivan | Executive Director, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: A462 6CBA FF37 6039 D2D7 5544 97BA 9CE7 61A0 963B
https://status.fsf.org/johns | https://fsf.org/blogs/RSS

Do you use free software? Donate to join the FSF and support freedom at
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Re: open letter to the Community:

[Lyberta]

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John Sullivan:
> Greg Farough <gregf@riseup.net> writes:
> 
>> Let's not even joke about suicide or doing violence to people who use the wrong kind of computer program.
>>
> 
> Agreed, and let's let this thread drop. Lyberta is now on moderation,
> and I'll reach out to them further.
> 
> -john
> 

What joking? I wasn't joking. People who create proprietary software
drive me and other people to suicide. It's a fact. When the only safe
place on Earth is your PC and the only thing that keeps you sane is
software, you see that proprietary software strips the last bits of
happiness from you. Free software saves lives, proprietary software
literally kills people.


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Re: open letter to the Community:

[Miles Fidelman]

On 2/14/19 5:20 PM, John Sullivan wrote:

> Greg Farough <gregf@riseup.net> writes:
>
>> Let's not even joke about suicide or doing violence to people who use the wrong kind of computer program.
>>
> Agreed, and let's let this thread drop. Lyberta is now on moderation,
> and I'll reach out to them further.


Whoa... when did this become such a humorless group.  Putting someone on 
moderation for what was a perfectly reasonable extension to a message 
that included:

> Whenever you make fun of me
> I Become even more powerful
<snip>
> Without the wounds you've caused me.
> I didn't have that immunity to resist.
> Without underestimating my abilities.
> I didn't have that kind of strength to stand up and fight
>
Lyberta's comment was, IMHO, perfectly appropriate, if a little on the 
dark & sarcastic side.

Miles Fidelman

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

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Re: open letter to the Community:

[Aaron Wolf]

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On 2/14/19 2:54 PM, Lyberta wrote:
> John Sullivan:
>> Greg Farough <gregf@riseup.net> writes:
>>
>>> Let's not even joke about suicide or doing violence to people who use the wrong kind of computer program.
>>>
>>
>> Agreed, and let's let this thread drop. Lyberta is now on moderation,
>> and I'll reach out to them further.
>>
>> -john
>>
> 
> What joking? I wasn't joking. People who create proprietary software
> drive me and other people to suicide. It's a fact. When the only safe
> place on Earth is your PC and the only thing that keeps you sane is
> software, you see that proprietary software strips the last bits of
> happiness from you. Free software saves lives, proprietary software
> literally kills people.
> 
> 


But that rhetoric has no tie to any particular philosophy or perspective
otherwise. Any situation where someone gets into caring about something
and threatens (or even commits) suicide because of something in the
world going in a way they don't prefer… that can be used to justify any
position at all, depending on how real it is. In any situation that
isn't just a total anomaly, we can jump to the reasons behind the
suicide threat and they will be compelling enough. Using the
suicide-threat itself is never justified.

There's even a phenomenon of copycat-suicide where focusing on the
righteousness of a suicide victim can encourage more people to commit
suicide.

So, please stay on the focus of what the direct harms are and not on the
extreme reactions that people suffering harms might have.


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Re: open letter to the Community:

[John Sullivan]

My apologies to everyone -- this second message was let through
moderation by mistake.

-john

-- 
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GPG Key: A462 6CBA FF37 6039 D2D7 5544 97BA 9CE7 61A0 963B
https://status.fsf.org/johns | https://fsf.org/blogs/RSS

Do you use free software? Donate to join the FSF and support freedom at
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Re: open letter to the Community:

[Miles Fidelman]

On 2/14/19 9:40 PM, John Sullivan wrote:

> My apologies to everyone -- this second message was let through
> moderation by mistake.
>
> -john


Personally, I find your censorship of a perfectly reasonable statement, 
to be offensive.

Miles Fidelman

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra


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list setup [was: Re: open letter to the Community:]

[Ineiev]

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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 08:24:59PM -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> On 2/14/19 5:20 PM, John Sullivan wrote:
> >Agreed, and let's let this thread drop. Lyberta is now on moderation,
> >and I'll reach out to them further.
> 
> Whoa... when did this become such a humorless group...

I wonder if this mailing list admins also have resources to debug
its settings. Lyberta's and Aaron's messages came with bad
GPG signatures.

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Re: list setup

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

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Ineiev <ineiev@gnu.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 08:24:59PM -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> On 2/14/19 5:20 PM, John Sullivan wrote:
>> >Agreed, and let's let this thread drop. Lyberta is now on moderation,
>> >and I'll reach out to them further.
>>
>> Whoa... when did this become such a humorless group...
>
> I wonder if this mailing list admins also have resources to debug
> its settings. Lyberta's and Aaron's messages came with bad
> GPG signatures.

+1.  I bet, this header must have something to do with the issue:

| X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21

The name itself suggests that this thing is supposed to mangle MIME messages by design, so it is not surprising, that their integrity is broken.  I cannot imagine a single valid reason to mangle mail that is passing through a list, whether MIME or legacy, though.  So this is presumably some outdated default of an old version of GNU Mailman used here.  Thus, the right way to fix it is as simple as just disable that thing.

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Re: list setup

[Bob Proulx]

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Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> > > > came with bad GPG signatures
>
> | X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21
>
> The name itself suggests that this thing is supposed to mangle MIME
> messages by design, so it is not surprising, that their integrity is
> broken.  I cannot imagine a single valid reason to mangle mail that
> is passing through a list, whether MIME or legacy, though.

The libreplanet-discuss mailing list adds a subject tag
"[libreplanet-discuss] " and a footer saying:

  libreplanet-discuss mailing list
  libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Personally I dislike these and would love to see them removed from all
mailing lists.  However they have been in use for a long time and many
people (pedantically incorrectly) use the subject tag for mail
filtering and many people need to see the footer to remind them how to
unsubscribe from the list.

Fortunately adding these will not cause a properly signed message to
fail signature validation.

Bob

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Re: list setup

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

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Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> wrote:
> Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
>> > > > came with bad GPG signatures
>>
>> | X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21
>>
>> The name itself suggests that this thing is supposed to mangle MIME
>> messages by design, so it is not surprising, that their integrity is
>> broken.  I cannot imagine a single valid reason to mangle mail that
>> is passing through a list, whether MIME or legacy, though.
>
> The libreplanet-discuss mailing list adds a subject tag
> "[libreplanet-discuss] " and a footer…
>
> Personally I dislike these and would love to see them removed from all
> mailing lists.

Me too.

> However they have been in use for a long time and many
> people (pedantically incorrectly) use the subject tag for mail
> filtering and many people need to see the footer to remind them how to
> unsubscribe from the list.
>
> Fortunately adding these will not cause a properly signed message to
> fail signature validation.

So there are two options: (1) to debug it to find what wrong it does with some mail besides harmlessly appending a footer; (2) take a determined decision and for all that disable any body processing entirely.  Prefixing subject with a list name, I believe, is done by separate facility, so that’s another question.

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Re: list setup

[bill-auger]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2019 15:11:34 +0300 Dmitry wrote:
> So there are two options:

i will suggest a third option, as i did on the new trisquel
"General Free Software Talk" web forum which is actually backed by the
'freedom-misc' mailing list, and apparently serves very much the same
purpose as this list, both practically and semantically, but apparently
gets far more use than this list - i suggest that is not because
trisquel users do not care to interact with the greater free software
community, but could be simply because it is a web forum and many
people prefer that these days

so a very reasonable third option that would unite the community general
discussions, would be to upgrade this list to mailman3 which has web
integration, and entice trisquel to close it's "General Free Software
Talk" forum and ask users of that forum to use the web interface of this
list instead, or vice-versa, or otherwise use the same back-end mail
store for both lists


https://trisquel.info/en/forum/connect-web-forum-list-libreplanet-instead
https://listas.trisquel.info/mailman/listinfo/freedom-misc

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Re: list setup

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

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bill-auger <bill-auger@peers.community> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2019 15:11:34 +0300 Dmitry wrote:
>> So there are two options:
>
> i will suggest a third option, as i did on the new trisquel
> "General Free Software Talk" web forum which is actually backed by the
> 'freedom-misc' mailing list, and apparently serves very much the same
> purpose as this list, both practically and semantically, but apparently
> gets far more use than this list - i suggest that is not because
> trisquel users do not care to interact with the greater free software
> community, but could be simply because it is a web forum and many
> people prefer that these days
>
> so a very reasonable third option that would unite the community general
> discussions, would be to upgrade this list to mailman3 which has web
> integration
>
> https://trisquel.info/en/forum/connect-web-forum-list-libreplanet-instead
> https://listas.trisquel.info/mailman/listinfo/freedom-misc

Well.  I meant only options that address the issue directly and are quickly doable — like switching off an offending toggle, not something that might take a good year.  :-)

However, that indeed looks like a great idea: both to upgrade in general, and to start from @libreplanet.org prior to (sooner or later) approach much higher-volume @gnu.org lists.

Let me share some concerns, though.

One is Mailman itself.  I am not quite sure, that its web interface is implemented in a sane way.  At least, its NNTP gateway is not.

Namely, it has an obnoxious habit of _rewriting all message ID’s_, for no particular reason I can imagine.  Check the hell that is going on, say, at mozilla-support-firefox@lists.mozilla.org, as it presented by:

— Mailman NNTP: nntp://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.firefox
— Gmane:        nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.mozilla.firefox.user

Mailman is broken, Gmane is not (in a sense that it does not rewrite any ID’s, all is as if you’re subscribed by yourself; as of now that group is also stalled, but that is not the point).  Yet both halves of subscribers: a one that is uses Mailman gateway either directly or indirectly (groups from there are propagated all over the old federated Usenet) and another that is not — both are affected by annoyances: depending on how your UA is aggressive on threading, you will either see randomly broken threads or numerous allegedly lost messages.

Another possible negative consequence of a future upgrading I am afraid of, is that listmasters will either forget or decide that is no longer feasible to publish its full and uncrippled archives <ftp://lists.gnu.org>.

> and entice trisquel to close it's "General Free Software
> Talk" forum and ask users of that forum to use the web interface of this
> list instead, or vice-versa

Their list’s web-interface looks nice on a first glance (yet it hardly more usable than the proper mail interface, of course).  How is it implemented?  It does not seem to be an aforementioned Mailman 3.  I am confused, as there is no usual link to sources in footer, neither anything related on <https://devel.trisquel.info>, as far as I see.  Don’t you know?

> or otherwise use the same back-end mail
> store for both lists

If the task is merging userbase of two existing lists (and not centralising everything on FSF infrastructure ;-), is not it easily solved by subscribing both one for another, I wonder?

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[gnu.org #1362369] Re: list setup

[Ian Kelling via RT]

On Sat Feb 23 07:12:19 2019, 321942@gmail.com wrote:
> Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> wrote:
> > Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> >> > > > came with bad GPG signatures
> >>
> >> | X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21
> >>
> >> The name itself suggests that this thing is supposed to mangle MIME
> >> messages by design, so it is not surprising, that their integrity is
> >> broken.  I cannot imagine a single valid reason to mangle mail that
> >> is passing through a list, whether MIME or legacy, though.
> >
> > The libreplanet-discuss mailing list adds a subject tag
> > "[libreplanet-discuss] " and a footer…
> >
> > Personally I dislike these and would love to see them removed from
> > all
> > mailing lists.
> 
> Me too.
> 
> > However they have been in use for a long time and many
> > people (pedantically incorrectly) use the subject tag for mail
> > filtering and many people need to see the footer to remind them how
> > to
> > unsubscribe from the list.
> >
> > Fortunately adding these will not cause a properly signed message to
> > fail signature validation.
> 
> So there are two options: (1) to debug it to find what wrong it does
> with some mail besides harmlessly appending a footer; (2) take a
> determined decision and for all that disable any body processing
> entirely.  Prefixing subject with a list name, I believe, is done by
> separate facility, so that’s another question.

I'm working on upgrading the server, then I will look into this. I
will see if removing the footer helps. Footer and subject prefixes
are likely going away for other reasons anyways.

-- 
Ian Kelling | Senior Systems Administrator, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: B125 F60B 7B28 7FF6 A2B7  DF8F 170A F0E2 9542 95DF
https://fsf.org | https://gnu.org


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