Re: Support RMS

[Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com>]

And honestly, if y'all can't just drop it then I think we
have to escalate it but make it about y'all.

That'll be fun.

If anyone wants to think cooperatively about post-air-travel
libre planet and other software freedom issues intersecting
with the climate emergency, that'd be cool.

For example.

-t


On 2021-04-17 22:19, Thomas Lord wrote:
> THIS IS NOT A LIST FOR SPECULATION ABOUT RMS' OR ANYONE
> ELSE'S INTERIOR LIFE.
> 
> CONSIDER THAT THERE IS A REAL VIRTUE IN JUST SHUTTING UP
> ON SOME TOPICS IN SOME CONTEXTS.
> 
> (Honestly, my current assumption is that the list is dominated
> by a few trolls now and ought to just go the way of all things.)
> 
> 
> -t
> 
> 
> 
> On 2021-04-17 21:48, Aaron Wolf wrote:
>> On 2021-04-17 8:49 p.m., Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>>> On Apr 16, 2021, Aaron Wolf <wolftune@riseup.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Like here's one story: I was at LibrePlanet 2014 and RMS was 
>>>> speaking
>>>> and mentioned offhand how a certain sort of older computer with no 
>>>> disk,
>>>> they used to joke and called it a dickless computer.
>>> 
>>> Ah, yes, that was exactly the tasteless pun I alluded to the other 
>>> day.
>>> 
>>>> I heard second hand that he had to
>>>> have someone pull him aside and emphasize the problem before he 
>>>> realized
>>>> the issue and apologized.
>>> 
>>> Well...  Here the recollections diverge.  To me, it was quite evident
>>> that he realized his own mistake right away.  It may have taken 
>>> someone
>>> to pull him aside and advise him to explicitly apologize for it, I'll
>>> give you that.  But suggesting he didn't realize it by himself fits 
>>> in
>>> perfectly in the pattern of twisting, exaggeration, and false 
>>> reporting
>>> that has led so many to see a false pattern of misbehavior.
>>> 
>> 
>> Oh I had the exact same impression, that he realized the mistake, was
>> 100% sincere in the award and gratitude to the women involved, and 
>> that
>> he sincerely wanted to be respectful of everyone. I also have seen him
>> in his political notes *constantly* promote feminism and women's 
>> rights
>> over years.
>> 
>> But I recall discussing that joke in 2014 that day or maybe it was
>> within the following week, and someone else who was discussing the
>> problem about it told me then the claim that someone had pulled him
>> aside to mention it. I have no idea if they were speculating or not, 
>> and
>> I have nothing but their claim to go on.
>> 
>> I had certainly assumed he was just self-reflective enough on his own
>> (though I assumed that was because he had many past cases of feedback
>> which he has just been slow to fully shift his habits). I'm not going 
>> to
>> even presume what is actually true. I do not know whether or not his
>> apology was entirely independent, I was only in the audience seeing 
>> what
>> everyone was seeing.
>> 
>>> 
>>>> And although I might disagree with Deb in some of her exact tactics 
>>>> in
>>>> engaging, you might notice that she has not made such accusations.
>>> 
>>> She co-drafted and undersigned the hate letter.  Its appendix has 
>>> plenty
>>> of just the sort of accusation you say she did not make.
>> 
>> Well, I suppose my charitable-interpretation inclination is 
>> consistent.
>> I don't know that she co-drafted the letter, I just see her in the
>> medium-long list of primary co-signers. That itself is troubling 
>> enough.
>> The letter is unfair as are the selections of accusations in the
>> letter's appendix.
>> 
>> I sincerely respect many of the signers, several of whom I've met in
>> person and some with whom I've had decently long one-on-one 
>> discussions
>> at conferences and such. I'm a bit sad, confused, and also maybe still
>> open-minded and curious about how these people could have supported 
>> the
>> letter as-is.
>> 
>> In my mind, for all these people to have supported that letter, 
>> there's
>> got to be more going on than what it superficially appears to be.
>> However, I don't jump to concluding what that might be.
>> 
>> Perhaps there are indeed elements of anti-free-software corporate
>> interest in defanging the FSF and RMS. I'm quite skeptical though. 
>> Some
>> of the people who signed are among the most ardent free software 
>> people
>> I've met.
>> 
>> Perhaps there are deeper issues with RMS that are subtle, hard to
>> capture, would *still* not make him evil or anything, but are just 
>> hard
>> to express, and so these folks are failing to make it clear to us (and
>> to me, I really am giving them *some* benefit of the doubt for the 
>> main
>> reason that most everything else I've heard from these people makes
>> sense to me, their credibility is good in my eyes on *other* topics).
>> 
>> Perhaps there's an echo-chamber kind of effect where certain styles of
>> language, certain words (e.g. misogyny) are used in well-meaning 
>> social
>> activist circles, and the letter writers are essentially writing with
>> their own echo-chamber in mind as their audience without considering
>> building a wider coalition or consensus.
>> 
>> Perhaps they are just all feeling *that* outraged, scared, triggered,
>> exasperated, or similar. And people in that state are predictably 
>> likely
>> to exaggerate, take uncharitable interpretations of their targets, and
>> be generally in a state of blame, and it's from that emotional state
>> that the letter comes.
>> 
>> To be most charitable, just maybe they really care about software
>> freedom, really believe that RMS staying in leadership will undermine
>> the cause, and they are engaging from a place of real *fear* as they
>> anticipate losing allies and friends who leave the movement and then 
>> see
>> a downward spiral that results in all the worst outcomes for software
>> freedom. Others may disagree with their assessment of the impact of 
>> RMS
>> continuing in leadership, but it's possible that the drama is all
>> between software-freedom advocates in two camps: one camp who are
>> sincerely scared that RMS will inadvertently sabotage software freedom
>> and lead us to the worst-case future, and the other camp who thinks 
>> RMS
>> is still a valuable leader who will further the cause of software 
>> freedom.
>> 
>>> 
>>> Even if she were to retract them, which would be the honest thing to 
>>> do,
>>> there's no way to gather all of the feathers to put them back in the
>>> pillow after the wind scattered them all over the place.
>>> 
>> 
>> Sure, but every possible scenario is still a chance to learn. It's 
>> never
>> too late to make the best *next* decisions from this very moment
>> forward. And even if Deb or others do not change their views on this
>> issue in the slightest, I *still* would prefer that they and everyone
>> (whether I agree with someone or not) take the experience of drama as 
>> a
>> prompt for self-reflection, take radical responsibility, and practice
>> the most constructive communication.
>> 
>> The story in my mind is: if the style of communication that Deb used 
>> in
>> her more recent posts here had been the style of their initial
>> engagement with this issue, it would have led to less drama, less
>> divisions, and possibly even to constructive discussion where everyone
>> in the movement could creatively seek win-for-all ways to move 
>> forward.
>> 
>> And even though it's too late for that, there's always a question of
>> whether the *next* situation is as productive as possible rather than
>> having such drama and antagonism.
>> 
>> And I'll continue to emphasize that the best way to react to Deb and
>> others is to *show* them what it looks like to treat everyone 
>> (including
>> those you disagree with) with some basic dignity, charity, and 
>> fairness.
>> I don't see any good coming from those people who think it's now okay 
>> to
>> be as unfair to Deb or others as they see them being to RMS.
>> 
>> In solidarity,
>> Aaron
>> 
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