Re: Support RMS

[Robbt E <robbt@azone.org>]

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A someone whose been an associate member of FSF for maybe over a decade 
I do see it as highly problematic that the FSF staff were not given a 
heads up before his return to the board was announced. The fact that 
this seemed to happen impromptu during a live event is a sign of a lack 
of leadership and planning on the part of the FSF board. I've yet to see 
any kind of letter explaining the decision or anything that shows a sign 
of understanding with regards to how divisive this decision was going to be.

I appreciate RMS' many accomplishments and appreciate his unflinching 
principles with regards to Free Software. I felt like his resignation 
from the FSF board in 2019 seemed rushed and done in haste. I don't know 
if the details regarding the deliberations behind his decision where 
ever made public or if they're considered private.

But I also think it is important if the Free Software movement is going 
to have a level of longevity it needs to grow to cultivate new 
leadership for the next generation. Perhaps this should happen in 
efforts parallel to the FSF. I am personally not a big adherent to the 
notion of "software purity" and don't see it as what should be the 
strategic focus of the movement. But I respect those who find this 
useful as an ethical parameter for how they make their decisions 
regarding technology.

I do think we need to not get distracted by the whole focus on RMS and 
judging him as good or bad as a person and continue to think about the 
overall mission of the free software movement.

In my life I tend to be pragmatic in encouraging people to adopt free 
software at whatever level they can. I encourage and have helped many 
organizations deploy websites using free software and have been able to 
introduce free software alternatives to proprietary software. But one 
problem I see is that many people who would likely be supporters of the 
free software movement aren't aware of it and the arguments we make. And 
if they are aware they don't feel capable of adhering to the abstention 
from using proprietary software completely.

We need to continue to make new and useful arguments and also build free 
software that is user friendly and accessible. I think the FSF has done 
this through some educational videos and campaigns and I appreciate the 
work that has been done but the FSF is a relatively small organization 
dwarfed by the immensity of tech giants and so the movement must be much 
larger than a single organization and certainly larger than adherence to 
the thoughts of one individual regardless of how well articulated their 
principles are.

I also think it is short-sighted to dismiss other peoples feelings as 
"their problem" and shows a lack of empathy that is an important thing 
in building community. It is hard to wrangle with these kind of problems 
and I think that electronic communication has certainly made it way 
easier to both offend, find offensive things and rally an angry mob and 
has done very little to facilitate the sort of listening and expansion 
of perspective that is useful for resolving these kind of conflicts. The 
solution should not be exile of those who offend people but it also 
shouldn't be to disregard people who find someone else to be offensive 
or problematic. I don't know what the balance is or how this can be done 
but I kind of doubt that we will be able to accomplish this by tossing 
bytes into the mailboxes of each other and certainly not if we continue 
to feel fueled by righteousness on way or another. Or perhaps I am wrong 
and those who are able to rally the most righteous indignation to their 
side will "win". But I suspect based upon my past experiences with 
organizational conflict that the organization itself (and its mission) 
will be ravaged by the fighting if people continue to raise the 
rhetorical and inflammatory debate.

Anyways, I am not sure how this will be received as I haven't really 
posted all that much and other than my presentation at last year's 
LibreTime and attending the 2019 in person conference I don't know a lot 
of you. I think we all have different perspectives and I just hope we 
can try to figure out how to work together and continue to focus on 
building free software and a movement that empowers people to understand 
its importance and to also increase its importance by getting more 
people to use and create free software. I would love to see the level of 
investment in free software increase to the point that we weren't 
depending upon large corporations to fund "open-source" software 
development and instead could build the social infrastructure to support 
people learning how to code and contributing code with less of a focus 
on profit, but this is a larger discussion and I know there are a lot of 
models out there already.

Later,

    Robbt

On 3/26/21 8:29 AM, Ali Reza Hayati wrote:
> Hello Danny.
>
> I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything wrong 
> here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've seen gay 
> people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, after all, 
> that's just jokes and humor.
>
> About being offended, again that's not a problem with RMS. Maybe he 
> hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice person 
> to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up person. Every 
> person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many people in 
> my life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
>
> If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion and 
> respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's again 
> respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.
>
> However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've signed 
> is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to defending 
> truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
>
> I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because defending 
> truth is important.
>
> Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's just 
> your personal conflict/disappointment.
>
> On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>> I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia shares 
>> several years of experience working at FSF and directly with RMS. 
>> Ali, their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software 
>> movement needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
>> https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232 
>> <https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
>> “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a while. I 
>> recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED John 
>> Sullivan about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s needed 
>> to be removed from gnu.org <http://gnu.org>. rms didn't get why it 
>> was harmful.
>>
>> Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a technical manual? 
>> He threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people (who 
>> respected him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that 
>> wasn't cool.
>>
>> The thing that randos who have never had to actually work with rms 
>> don't understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried 
>> to help him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at 
>> Libreplanet as if it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs 
>> virgins'
>>
>> Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been spent advocating 
>> for free to software and building the inclusive, impractical 
>> community so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over 
>> and over.
>>
>> This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free software 
>> community is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to work 
>> with a bunch of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, 
>> organizing Libreplanet was my job & introduced me to amazing people 
>> from across the world
>>
>> free software has the ability to do so much good, but there's an ugly 
>> cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced consequences 
>> for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the decades of 
>> shitty behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his return
>>
>> It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because we don't 
>> focus on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by assholes 
>> sealioning for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER 
>> enough) it's possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now. 
>> DON'T LET THEM
>>
>> My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I made a pull 
>> request in order to sign on to this letter.
>> https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ <https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
>>
>> One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this. They didn't ask 
>> for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' apparently 
>> impromptu announcement, they labor for the organization and for the 
>> community every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive 
>> director.”
>>
>> The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500 individuals, 
>> including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net 
>> <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board of directors. 
>> Now,
>>     some organizations and people are attacking FSF and RMS and are 
>> asking
>>     them to resign.
>>
>>     Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to resist this
>>     pressure and continue work for the good of the software libre 
>> movement.
>>
>>     Sending message to info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org> is a way of
>>     showing your support. They
>>     are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step down from our
>>     principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
>>
>>     On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>>      > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of support for RMS.
>>      >
>>      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
>>     <hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>
>>      > <mailto:hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>>> wrote:
>>      >
>>      >     People,
>>      >
>>      >     FSF board has received lots of messages today and there's no
>>     need to
>>      >     add
>>      >     to the pile. Please send your support for RMS to info@fsf.org
>>     <mailto:info@fsf.org>
>>      >     <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>> and ask
>>      >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
>>      >
>>      >     Software libre is a matter of justice. If we can learn one
>>     thing from
>>      >     the whole movement is to keep our principals and fight for
>>     justice. FSF
>>      >     made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not to defend RMS
>>     against
>>      >     false
>>      >     accusations. Today, we can make that right by supporting a
>>     wonderful
>>      >     honorable man.
>>      >
>>      >     Show your support by sending messages to info@fsf.org
>>     <mailto:info@fsf.org>
>>      >     <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>>. Do it now, later
>>      >     may be late.
>>      >
>>      >     Best.
>>      >     --
>>      >     Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com
>>     <https://alirezahayati.com> <https://alirezahayati.com
>>     <https://alirezahayati.com>>)
>>      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>>      >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>>      >
>>      >     _______________________________________________
>>      >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>>      > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>>     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
>>      >     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>>     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
>>      >
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>> <https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>
>>      > 
>>  <https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 
>> <https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>>
>>      >
>>
>>     --     Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com 
>> <https://alirezahayati.com>)
>>     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>>     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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   A someone whose been an associate member of FSF for maybe over a decade
   I do see it as highly problematic that the FSF staff were not given a
   heads up before his return to the board was announced. The fact that
   this seemed to happen impromptu during a live event is a sign of a lack
   of leadership and planning on the part of the FSF board. I've yet to
   see any kind of letter explaining the decision or anything that shows a
   sign of understanding with regards to how divisive this decision was
   going to be.

   I appreciate RMS' many accomplishments and appreciate his unflinching
   principles with regards to Free Software. I felt like his resignation
   from the FSF board in 2019 seemed rushed and done in haste. I don't
   know if the details regarding the deliberations behind his decision
   where ever made public or if they're considered private.

   But I also think it is important if the Free Software movement is going
   to have a level of longevity it needs to grow to cultivate new
   leadership for the next generation. Perhaps this should happen in
   efforts parallel to the FSF. I am personally not a big adherent to the
   notion of "software purity" and don't see it as what should be the
   strategic focus of the movement. But I respect those who find this
   useful as an ethical parameter for how they make their decisions
   regarding technology.

   I do think we need to not get distracted by the whole focus on RMS and
   judging him as good or bad as a person and continue to think about the
   overall mission of the free software movement.

   In my life I tend to be pragmatic in encouraging people to adopt free
   software at whatever level they can. I encourage and have helped many
   organizations deploy websites using free software and have been able to
   introduce free software alternatives to proprietary software. But one
   problem I see is that many people who would likely be supporters of the
   free software movement aren't aware of it and the arguments we make.
   And if they are aware they don't feel capable of adhering to the
   abstention from using proprietary software completely.

   We need to continue to make new and useful arguments and also build
   free software that is user friendly and accessible. I think the FSF has
   done this through some educational videos and campaigns and I
   appreciate the work that has been done but the FSF is a relatively
   small organization dwarfed by the immensity of tech giants and so the
   movement must be much larger than a single organization and certainly
   larger than adherence to the thoughts of one individual regardless of
   how well articulated their principles are.

   I also think it is short-sighted to dismiss other peoples feelings as
   "their problem" and shows a lack of empathy that is an important thing
   in building community. It is hard to wrangle with these kind of
   problems and I think that electronic communication has certainly made
   it way easier to both offend, find offensive things and rally an angry
   mob and has done very little to facilitate the sort of listening and
   expansion of perspective that is useful for resolving these kind of
   conflicts. The solution should not be exile of those who offend people
   but it also shouldn't be to disregard people who find someone else to
   be offensive or problematic. I don't know what the balance is or how
   this can be done but I kind of doubt that we will be able to accomplish
   this by tossing bytes into the mailboxes of each other and certainly
   not if we continue to feel fueled by righteousness on way or another.
   Or perhaps I am wrong and those who are able to rally the most
   righteous indignation to their side will "win". But I suspect based
   upon my past experiences with organizational conflict that the
   organization itself (and its mission) will be ravaged by the fighting
   if people continue to raise the rhetorical and inflammatory debate.

   Anyways, I am not sure how this will be received as I haven't really
   posted all that much and other than my presentation at last year's
   LibreTime and attending the 2019 in person conference I don't know a
   lot of you. I think we all have different perspectives and I just hope
   we can try to figure out how to work together and continue to focus on
   building free software and a movement that empowers people to
   understand its importance and to also increase its importance by
   getting more people to use and create free software. I would love to
   see the level of investment in free software increase to the point that
   we weren't depending upon large corporations to fund "open-source"
   software development and instead could build the social infrastructure
   to support people learning how to code and contributing code with less
   of a focus on profit, but this is a larger discussion and I know there
   are a lot of models out there already.

   Later,

      Robbt

   On 3/26/21 8:29 AM, Ali Reza Hayati wrote:

     Hello Danny.
     I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything wrong
     here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've seen
     gay people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said,
     after all, that's just jokes and humor.
     About being offended, again that's not a problem with RMS. Maybe he
     hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice
     person to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up
     person. Every person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset
     many people in my life without any intention, to that I apologize to
     them.
     If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion and
     respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's again
     respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.
     However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've
     signed is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to
     defending truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
     I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because defending
     truth is important.
     Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's just
     your personal conflict/disappointment.
     On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:

     I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia shares
     several years of experience working at FSF and directly with RMS.
     Ali, their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software
     movement needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
     [1]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
     [2]<https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
     “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a while.
     I recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED John
     Sullivan about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s
     needed to be removed from gnu.org [3]<http://gnu.org>. rms didn't
     get why it was harmful.
     Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a technical manual?
     He threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people (who
     respected him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that
     wasn't cool.
     The thing that randos who have never had to actually work with rms
     don't understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried
     to help him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at
     Libreplanet as if it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs
     virgins'
     Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been spent
     advocating for free to software and building the inclusive,
     impractical community so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a
     man's ego, over and over.
     This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free software
     community is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to work
     with a bunch of people I like & respect & feel inspired by,
     organizing Libreplanet was my job & introduced me to amazing people
     from across the world
     free software has the ability to do so much good, but there's an
     ugly cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced
     consequences for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the
     decades of shitty behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses
     his return
     It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because we don't
     focus on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by assholes
     sealioning for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER
     enough) it's possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now.
     DON'T LET THEM
     My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I made a
     pull request in order to sign on to this letter.
     [4]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
     [5]<https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
     One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this. They didn't
     ask for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' apparently
     impromptu announcement, they labor for the organization and for the
     community every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive
     director.”
     The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500 individuals,
     including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
     On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati
     <[6]hayati@riseup.net [7]<mailto:hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
         Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board of
     directors. Now,
         some organizations and people are attacking FSF and RMS and are
     asking
         them to resign.
         Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to resist this
         pressure and continue work for the good of the software libre
     movement.
         Sending message to [8]info@fsf.org [9]<mailto:info@fsf.org> is a
     way of
         showing your support. They
         are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step down from
     our
         principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
         On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
          > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of support for
     RMS.
          >
          > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
         <[10]hayati@riseup.net [11]<mailto:hayati@riseup.net>
          > <[12]mailto:hayati@riseup.net
     [13]<mailto:hayati@riseup.net>>> wrote:
          >
          >     People,
          >
          >     FSF board has received lots of messages today and there's
     no
         need to
          >     add
          >     to the pile. Please send your support for RMS to
     [14]info@fsf.org
         [15]<mailto:info@fsf.org>
          >     <[16]mailto:info@fsf.org [17]<mailto:info@fsf.org>> and
     ask
          >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
          >
          >     Software libre is a matter of justice. If we can learn
     one
         thing from
          >     the whole movement is to keep our principals and fight
     for
         justice. FSF
          >     made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not to defend
     RMS
         against
          >     false
          >     accusations. Today, we can make that right by supporting
     a
         wonderful
          >     honorable man.
          >
          >     Show your support by sending messages to [18]info@fsf.org
         [19]<mailto:info@fsf.org>
          >     <[20]mailto:info@fsf.org [21]<mailto:info@fsf.org>>. Do
     it now, later
          >     may be late.
          >
          >     Best.
          >     --
          >     Ali Reza Hayati ([22]https://alirezahayati.com
         [23]<https://alirezahayati.com> <[24]https://alirezahayati.com
         [25]<https://alirezahayati.com>>)
          >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
          >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
          >
          >     _______________________________________________
          >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
          > [26]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
         [27]<mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
          >     <[28]mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
         [29]<mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
          >

     [30]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss

     [31]<https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
     uss>
          >
     <[32]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
     uss
     [33]<https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
     uss>>
          >
         --     Ali Reza Hayati ([34]https://alirezahayati.com
     [35]<https://alirezahayati.com>)
         Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
         PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
[36]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
[37]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
   2. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
   3. http://gnu.org/
   4. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
   5. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
   6. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   7. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   8. mailto:info@fsf.org
   9. mailto:info@fsf.org
  10. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  11. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  12. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  13. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  14. mailto:info@fsf.org
  15. mailto:info@fsf.org
  16. mailto:info@fsf.org
  17. mailto:info@fsf.org
  18. mailto:info@fsf.org
  19. mailto:info@fsf.org
  20. mailto:info@fsf.org
  21. mailto:info@fsf.org
  22. https://alirezahayati.com/
  23. https://alirezahayati.com/
  24. https://alirezahayati.com/
  25. https://alirezahayati.com/
  26. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  27. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  28. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  29. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  30. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  31. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  32. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  33. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  34. https://alirezahayati.com/
  35. https://alirezahayati.com/
  36. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  37. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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