purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
and fsf.

I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ


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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[Félicien Pillot]

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Hi "a",

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:10:09 +0100
a via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

> This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
> and fsf.
> 
> I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
> https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ

If I understand correctly...

First, you criticise Purism for saying that soon they would be supported
by the FSF.
Then, you criticise the FSF for having supported Purism soon after that.

What's wrong??

PS: Why don't you copy-paste that text in your message?
-- 
Félicien Pillot
2C7C ACC0 FBDB ADBA E7BC  50D9 043C D143 6C87 9372
felicien@gnu.org - felicien.pillot@riseup.net

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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My post is about getting official comments from
libreplanet and fsf. Of course anybody can
reply, but I already know how people attempt
to defend purism's behavior.


On 3/11/20 8:48 PM, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> If I understand you correctly, you believe: Purism marketing talks about
> software freedom and the goal of RYF 100% free hardware, but they don't
> deliver to that level, and they minimize or hide the details. You worry
> that people buy Purism products believing they are getting more complete
> freedom than they actually receive. You doubt Purism's good faith, and
> because you feel FSF should be skeptical rather than gracious about
> these concerns, FSF is making a mistake by giving Purism a platform or
> acknowledgment (at least without some explicit qualifiers from FSF about
> these concerns). Is that right?


Correct.



>
> I agree with you that marketing claims should not mislead people about
> the facts of products. Stating a goal of reaching some standard is not
> the same as already being there, and the difference should be plain and
> transparent.


Correct.

>
> I don't find your jump to speculating about bad faith at all warranted.
> There's no evidence that FSF is corrupted in any way around this. And
> there's inadequate (though perhaps non-zero) evidence that Purism has
> any bad faith.


https://trisquel.info/en/forum/librem13-fully-free-time

educate yourself.

About purism they claimed about their notebooks that
there was a real possibility that intel would publish
the software in question. Everybody in the field
know, intel does not publish such
pieces of source software.

purism claimed reverse engineering was an option. The
software in question is signed. Name a cryptographer who will
agree, that breaking the cryptography is an option?

As I said, one email to libreboot would have been enough.
Also after people told purism that their claims were
unfounded, purism did not rectify their websites.

It is swindle if you deceive people in order to gain
money.

About fsf.
fsf is known to be strict and harsh in matters of free
software. It is a mystery why fsf has acted that amateurishly
about purism. That is why I ask, has fsf received money
or hardware from purism? Are there people who at the
same time represent both fsf and purism?

> In general, you're more likely to learn and also to get others to listen
> when you express concerns from a position of genuine curiosity without
> hints of accusations and other attacks.


You do realize I have stated arguments? You have not. A
pattern I have noticed from other defenders of purism.

fsf has been informed by me and maybe others, how
purism has acted. It makes fsf an accessory in
purism's fraud. fsf failure on this matter results in loss of
credibility among those who are able to look behind
purism's deceptions.



>
> It can also help to try to create a *strong-man* argument. Generate the
> strongest argument you can for a defense of Purism and FSF, and then see
> if that holds up to scrutiny. That's much more insightful than
> generating weak or straw-man arguments or speculative suspicions.


Start rebut my arguments.



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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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> If I understand correctly...
>
> First, you criticise Purism for saying that soon they would be supported
> by the FSF.
> Then, you criticise the FSF for having supported Purism soon after that.
>
> What's wrong??


I am criticizing purism for fraudulent behavior. I say purism
is using fsf in purism's deceptions. The major question
is why fsf has let it
take place?

> PS: Why don't you copy-paste that text in your message?
>
>
>
>

The link makes my post more compact. And a link is
easier to share.



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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss]

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 I'm not really sure how Purism is any worse than companies like Think Penguin, or than the machines are any less freedom respecting than anything else that can run a FSF endorsed distro and coreboot.  Even some new system76 machines are running coreboot now from what I understand.  I understand it is hard to find hardware that gets a RYF certification because of some stuff with intel, but I understand this is not necessarily an issue with every chip, just most desktops and laptops. (with the exception of some old ones such as the refurbished ThinkPads like the t400)

    On Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 3:12:10 PM EDT, a via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:  
 
 This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
and fsf.

I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
_______________________________________________
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libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss  

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   I'm not really sure how Purism is any worse than companies like Think
   Penguin, or than the machines are any less freedom respecting than
   anything else that can run a FSF endorsed distro and coreboot.  Even
   some new system76 machines are running coreboot now from what I
   understand.  I understand it is hard to find hardware that gets a RYF
   certification because of some stuff with intel, but I understand this
   is not necessarily an issue with every chip, just most desktops and
   laptops. (with the exception of some old ones such as the refurbished
   ThinkPads like the t400)

   On Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 3:12:10 PM EDT, a via libreplanet-discuss
   <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
   This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
   and fsf.
   I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
   [1]https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVo
   YkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
   _______________________________________________
   libreplanet-discuss mailing list
   [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
   2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[Hector Espinoza]

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In my opinion moving in one step from all closed source to all open source
freedom respecting is very hard or practically impossible. I am happy
people are doing steps towards all open source and no hidden stuff. One
valid step is modern hardware running open source Operating System out of
the box. Another valid step is adding open source freedom respecting bios
(i.e. libreboot) to that. Another valid step is ... Let us not forget the
goal and keep doing steps. Small or big. All is welcome for the benefit of
mankind.

Cheers,

Héctor Espinoza

El mié., 11 de mar. de 2020, 17:11, Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss <
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> escribió:

>    I'm not really sure how Purism is any worse than companies like Think
>    Penguin, or than the machines are any less freedom respecting than
>    anything else that can run a FSF endorsed distro and coreboot.  Even
>    some new system76 machines are running coreboot now from what I
>    understand.  I understand it is hard to find hardware that gets a RYF
>    certification because of some stuff with intel, but I understand this
>    is not necessarily an issue with every chip, just most desktops and
>    laptops. (with the exception of some old ones such as the refurbished
>    ThinkPads like the t400)
>
>    On Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 3:12:10 PM EDT, a via libreplanet-discuss
>    <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
>    This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
>    and fsf.
>    I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
>    [1]https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVo
>    YkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>    _______________________________________________
>    libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>    [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
> References
>
>    1.
> https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>    2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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   In my opinion moving in one step from all closed source to all open
   source freedom respecting is very hard or practically impossible. I am
   happy people are doing steps towards all open source and no hidden
   stuff. One valid step is modern hardware running open source Operating
   System out of the box. Another valid step is adding open source freedom
   respecting bios (i.e. libreboot) to that. Another valid step is ... Let
   us not forget the goal and keep doing steps. Small or big. All is
   welcome for the benefit of mankind.
   Cheers,
   Héctor Espinoza

   El mié., 11 de mar. de 2020, 17:11, Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss
   <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> escribió:

        I'm not really sure how Purism is any worse than companies like
     Think
        Penguin, or than the machines are any less freedom respecting
     than
        anything else that can run a FSF endorsed distro and coreboot.
     Even
        some new system76 machines are running coreboot now from what I
        understand.  I understand it is hard to find hardware that gets a
     RYF
        certification because of some stuff with intel, but I understand
     this
        is not necessarily an issue with every chip, just most desktops
     and
        laptops. (with the exception of some old ones such as the
     refurbished
        ThinkPads like the t400)
        On Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 3:12:10 PM EDT, a via
     libreplanet-discuss
        <[2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
        This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
        and fsf.
        I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.

     [1][3]https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN
     74cVVo
        YkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
        _______________________________________________
        libreplanet-discuss mailing list
        [2][4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

     [3][5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-dis
     cuss
     References
        1.
     [6]https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74c
     VVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
        2. mailto:[7]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
        3.
     [8]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [9]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [10]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss

References

   1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   3. https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVo
   4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
   6. https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
   7. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   8. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
   9. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  10. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[Aaron Wolf]

On 2020-03-11 14:33, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> My post is about getting official comments from
> libreplanet and fsf. Of course anybody can
> reply, but I already know how people attempt
> to defend purism's behavior.
> 
> 
> On 3/11/20 8:48 PM, Aaron Wolf wrote:
>> If I understand you correctly, you believe: Purism marketing talks about
>> software freedom and the goal of RYF 100% free hardware, but they don't
>> deliver to that level, and they minimize or hide the details. You worry
>> that people buy Purism products believing they are getting more complete
>> freedom than they actually receive. You doubt Purism's good faith, and
>> because you feel FSF should be skeptical rather than gracious about
>> these concerns, FSF is making a mistake by giving Purism a platform or
>> acknowledgment (at least without some explicit qualifiers from FSF about
>> these concerns). Is that right?
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> I agree with you that marketing claims should not mislead people about
>> the facts of products. Stating a goal of reaching some standard is not
>> the same as already being there, and the difference should be plain and
>> transparent.
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
>>
>> I don't find your jump to speculating about bad faith at all warranted.
>> There's no evidence that FSF is corrupted in any way around this. And
>> there's inadequate (though perhaps non-zero) evidence that Purism has
>> any bad faith.
> 
> 
> https://trisquel.info/en/forum/librem13-fully-free-time
> 
> educate yourself.
> 
> About purism they claimed about their notebooks that
> there was a real possibility that intel would publish
> the software in question. Everybody in the field
> know, intel does not publish such
> pieces of source software.
> 
> purism claimed reverse engineering was an option. The
> software in question is signed. Name a cryptographer who will
> agree, that breaking the cryptography is an option?
> 
> As I said, one email to libreboot would have been enough.
> Also after people told purism that their claims were
> unfounded, purism did not rectify their websites.
> 
> It is swindle if you deceive people in order to gain
> money.
> 
> About fsf.
> fsf is known to be strict and harsh in matters of free
> software. It is a mystery why fsf has acted that amateurishly
> about purism. That is why I ask, has fsf received money
> or hardware from purism? Are there people who at the
> same time represent both fsf and purism?
> 
>> In general, you're more likely to learn and also to get others to listen
>> when you express concerns from a position of genuine curiosity without
>> hints of accusations and other attacks.
> 
> 
> You do realize I have stated arguments? You have not. A
> pattern I have noticed from other defenders of purism.
> 
> fsf has been informed by me and maybe others, how
> purism has acted. It makes fsf an accessory in
> purism's fraud. fsf failure on this matter results in loss of
> credibility among those who are able to look behind
> purism's deceptions.
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> It can also help to try to create a *strong-man* argument. Generate the
>> strongest argument you can for a defense of Purism and FSF, and then see
>> if that holds up to scrutiny. That's much more insightful than
>> generating weak or straw-man arguments or speculative suspicions.
> 
> 
> Start rebut my arguments.
> 

I made no arguments because I don't have a position on this, I don't
know that you are are, and I wasn't defending Purism.

What I did was demonstrate a more effective way of communicating by
verifying if I understood, describing where I agree, and offering
feedback. All I'm saying is that you are inherently likely to be read
dismissively with the style of posting you used. Style has no relation
to accuracy. Someone can have effective style and be wrong or have lousy
style and be right. But people won't listen to badly-communicated ideas
that are still right.

To avoid dismissal by others, I suggest you state the clear facts
distinctly from the accusations and stories. You already did better in
your reply to me. But for further clarification, something like this:

"Purism claimed working toward X, but X is effectively impossible.
The suspicion I have is that they are not acting in good faith.
FSF let them present at LibrePlanet. The story in my mind is: FSF should
have independently recognized the concerns I have and not trust Purism
to be acting in good faith."

I don't know if your suspicions are valid or not. All I know is that the
type of animosity I've seen toward Purism has resulted in posts
attacking them with language that assumes bad faith rather than posts
that lead me to share that conclusion. There's a spectrum from misguided
good faith to all-out bad faith. I don't have enough evidence to convict
Purism of bad faith, even though I can accept the criticism of some of
their marketing.

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[Mike Gerwitz]

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On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 20:10:09 +0100, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
> and fsf.
>
> I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
> https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ

Would you mind pasting the text of your message on this list?  I get
this when I visit the site, and I do not intend to enable JS:

   JavaScript is required for Such PrivateBin to work. Sorry for the
   inconvenience.

Pasting will also allow people to quote inline and respond to specific points.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
https://mikegerwitz.com

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 601 bytes --]

I got aware, I have made a big mistake. The subject
should have said
purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace
misleading company?

I will restart my post having the correct subject
and a couple of adjustments in the text.
People can then resend their responses to the
new post.

Can they posts I wrote having the wrong
subject get deleted?


> Would you mind pasting the text of your message on this list?  I get
> this when I visit the site, and I do not intend to enable JS:


I did not think of this. To my knowledge the paste bin runs
free js. I will display the text.

>

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

a via libreplanet-discuss, 11/03/20 23:58:
> And a link is
> easier to share.

This mailing list has a public archive which you can link just fine and 
doesn't require JavaScript to be read:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2020-03/msg00033.html

So, no, your external text is not easier to share than an actual message 
to this mailing list.

Federico

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Félicien Pillot, 11/03/20 23:05:
> What's wrong??

ninhar has raised such topics earlier in the Replicant mailing list, see 
for instance:
https://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/replicant/2019-November/002268.html

"Report from 36C3" is AFAICT the best summary of the status of play as 
we know it.
https://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/replicant/2020-January/002441.html

If the proposal is to ban from LibrePlanet all companies and products 
which are not RYF certified, I doubt that's advisable.

Federico

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purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2122 bytes --]


On 3/11/20 8:48 PM, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> If I understand you correctly, you believe: Purism marketing talks about
> software freedom and the goal of RYF 100% free hardware, but they don't
> deliver to that level, and they minimize or hide the details. You worry
> that people buy Purism products believing they are getting more complete
> freedom than they actually receive. You doubt Purism's good faith, and
> because you feel FSF should be skeptical rather than gracious about
> these concerns, FSF is making a mistake by giving Purism a platform or
> acknowledgment (at least without some explicit qualifiers from FSF about
> these concerns). Is that right?
>
> I agree with you that marketing claims should not mislead people about
> the facts of products. Stating a goal of reaching some standard is not
> the same as already being there, and the difference should be plain and
> transparent.
>
> I don't find your jump to speculating about bad faith at all warranted.
> There's no evidence that FSF is corrupted in any way around this. And
> there's inadequate (though perhaps non-zero) evidence that Purism has
> any bad faith.
>
> In general, you're more likely to learn and also to get others to listen
> when you express concerns from a position of genuine curiosity without
> hints of accusations and other attacks.
>
> It can also help to try to create a *strong-man* argument. Generate the
> strongest argument you can for a defense of Purism and FSF, and then see
> if that holds up to scrutiny. That's much more insightful than
> generating weak or straw-man arguments or speculative suspicions.
>
> On 2020-03-11 12:10, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
>> This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
>> and fsf.
>>
>> I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
>> https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>>

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/11/20 9:11 PM, Stanisława Pałętka wrote:
> W dniu środa, 11 marca 2020 a via libreplanet-discuss <
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> napisał(a):
>
>> This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
>> and fsf.
>>
>> I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
>> https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqC
>> GWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>>
>>

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purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/11/20 9:11 PM, Stanisława Pałętka wrote:
> W dniu środa, 11 marca 2020 a via libreplanet-discuss <
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> napisał(a):
>
>> This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
>> and fsf.
>>
>> I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
>> https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqC
>> GWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>>
>>

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purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/11/20 10:33 PM, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> My post is about getting official comments from
> libreplanet and fsf. Of course anybody can
> reply, but I already know how people attempt
> to defend purism's behavior.
>
>
> On 3/11/20 8:48 PM, Aaron Wolf wrote:
>> If I understand you correctly, you believe: Purism marketing talks about
>> software freedom and the goal of RYF 100% free hardware, but they don't
>> deliver to that level, and they minimize or hide the details. You worry
>> that people buy Purism products believing they are getting more complete
>> freedom than they actually receive. You doubt Purism's good faith, and
>> because you feel FSF should be skeptical rather than gracious about
>> these concerns, FSF is making a mistake by giving Purism a platform or
>> acknowledgment (at least without some explicit qualifiers from FSF about
>> these concerns). Is that right?
>
> Correct.
>
>
>
>> I agree with you that marketing claims should not mislead people about
>> the facts of products. Stating a goal of reaching some standard is not
>> the same as already being there, and the difference should be plain and
>> transparent.
>
> Correct.
>
>> I don't find your jump to speculating about bad faith at all warranted.
>> There's no evidence that FSF is corrupted in any way around this. And
>> there's inadequate (though perhaps non-zero) evidence that Purism has
>> any bad faith.
>
> https://trisquel.info/en/forum/librem13-fully-free-time
>
> educate yourself.
>
> About purism they claimed about their notebooks that
> there was a real possibility that intel would publish
> the software in question. Everybody in the field
> know, intel does not publish such
> pieces of source software.
>
> purism claimed reverse engineering was an option. The
> software in question is signed. Name a cryptographer who will
> agree, that breaking the cryptography is an option?
>
> As I said, one email to libreboot would have been enough.
> Also after people told purism that their claims were
> unfounded, purism did not rectify their websites.
>
> It is swindle if you deceive people in order to gain
> money.
>
> About fsf.
> fsf is known to be strict and harsh in matters of free
> software. It is a mystery why fsf has acted that amateurishly
> about purism. That is why I ask, has fsf received money
> or hardware from purism? Are there people who at the
> same time represent both fsf and purism?
>
>> In general, you're more likely to learn and also to get others to listen
>> when you express concerns from a position of genuine curiosity without
>> hints of accusations and other attacks.
>
> You do realize I have stated arguments? You have not. A
> pattern I have noticed from other defenders of purism.
>
> fsf has been informed by me and maybe others, how
> purism has acted. It makes fsf an accessory in
> purism's fraud. fsf failure on this matter results in loss of
> credibility among those who are able to look behind
> purism's deceptions.
>
>
>
>> It can also help to try to create a *strong-man* argument. Generate the
>> strongest argument you can for a defense of Purism and FSF, and then see
>> if that holds up to scrutiny. That's much more insightful than
>> generating weak or straw-man arguments or speculative suspicions.
>
> Start rebut my arguments.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/11/20 10:58 PM, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
>> If I understand correctly...
>>
>> First, you criticise Purism for saying that soon they would be supported
>> by the FSF.
>> Then, you criticise the FSF for having supported Purism soon after that.
>>
>> What's wrong??
>
> I am criticizing purism for fraudulent behavior. I say purism
> is using fsf in purism's deceptions. The major question
> is why fsf has let it
> take place?
>
>> PS: Why don't you copy-paste that text in your message?
>>
>>
>>
>>
> The link makes my post more compact. And a link is
> easier to share.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/11/20 11:10 PM, Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
>    I'm not really sure how Purism is any worse than companies like Think
>    Penguin, or than the machines are any less freedom respecting than
>    anything else that can run a FSF endorsed distro and coreboot.  Even
>    some new system76 machines are running coreboot now from what I
>    understand.  I understand it is hard to find hardware that gets a RYF
>    certification because of some stuff with intel, but I understand this
>    is not necessarily an issue with every chip, just most desktops and
>    laptops. (with the exception of some old ones such as the refurbished
>    ThinkPads like the t400)
>
>    On Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 3:12:10 PM EDT, a via libreplanet-discuss
>    <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
>    This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
>    and fsf.
>    I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
>    [1]https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVo
>    YkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>    _______________________________________________
>    libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>    [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
> References
>
>    1. https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>    2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/11/20 11:30 PM, Hector Espinoza wrote:
>    In my opinion moving in one step from all closed source to all open
>    source freedom respecting is very hard or practically impossible. I am
>    happy people are doing steps towards all open source and no hidden
>    stuff. One valid step is modern hardware running open source Operating
>    System out of the box. Another valid step is adding open source freedom
>    respecting bios (i.e. libreboot) to that. Another valid step is ... Let
>    us not forget the goal and keep doing steps. Small or big. All is
>    welcome for the benefit of mankind.
>    Cheers,
>    Héctor Espinoza
>
>    El mié., 11 de mar. de 2020, 17:11, Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss
>    <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> escribió:
>
>         I'm not really sure how Purism is any worse than companies like
>      Think
>         Penguin, or than the machines are any less freedom respecting
>      than
>         anything else that can run a FSF endorsed distro and coreboot.
>      Even
>         some new system76 machines are running coreboot now from what I
>         understand.  I understand it is hard to find hardware that gets a
>      RYF
>         certification because of some stuff with intel, but I understand
>      this
>         is not necessarily an issue with every chip, just most desktops
>      and
>         laptops. (with the exception of some old ones such as the
>      refurbished
>         ThinkPads like the t400)
>         On Wednesday, March 11, 2020, 3:12:10 PM EDT, a via
>      libreplanet-discuss
>         <[2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:
>         This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
>         and fsf.
>         I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
>
>      [1][3]https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN
>      74cVVo
>         YkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>         _______________________________________________
>         libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>         [2][4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>
>      [3][5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-dis
>      cuss
>      References
>         1.
>      [6]https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74c
>      VVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>         2. mailto:[7]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>         3.
>      [8]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
>      s
>      _______________________________________________
>      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      [9]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      [10]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
>      ss
>
> References
>
>    1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    3. https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVo
>    4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    6. https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
>    7. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    8. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    9. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   10. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/12/20 5:25 AM, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> On 2020-03-11 14:33, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
>> My post is about getting official comments from
>> libreplanet and fsf. Of course anybody can
>> reply, but I already know how people attempt
>> to defend purism's behavior.
>>
>>
>> On 3/11/20 8:48 PM, Aaron Wolf wrote:
>>> If I understand you correctly, you believe: Purism marketing talks about
>>> software freedom and the goal of RYF 100% free hardware, but they don't
>>> deliver to that level, and they minimize or hide the details. You worry
>>> that people buy Purism products believing they are getting more complete
>>> freedom than they actually receive. You doubt Purism's good faith, and
>>> because you feel FSF should be skeptical rather than gracious about
>>> these concerns, FSF is making a mistake by giving Purism a platform or
>>> acknowledgment (at least without some explicit qualifiers from FSF about
>>> these concerns). Is that right?
>>
>> Correct.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I agree with you that marketing claims should not mislead people about
>>> the facts of products. Stating a goal of reaching some standard is not
>>> the same as already being there, and the difference should be plain and
>>> transparent.
>>
>> Correct.
>>
>>> I don't find your jump to speculating about bad faith at all warranted.
>>> There's no evidence that FSF is corrupted in any way around this. And
>>> there's inadequate (though perhaps non-zero) evidence that Purism has
>>> any bad faith.
>>
>> https://trisquel.info/en/forum/librem13-fully-free-time
>>
>> educate yourself.
>>
>> About purism they claimed about their notebooks that
>> there was a real possibility that intel would publish
>> the software in question. Everybody in the field
>> know, intel does not publish such
>> pieces of source software.
>>
>> purism claimed reverse engineering was an option. The
>> software in question is signed. Name a cryptographer who will
>> agree, that breaking the cryptography is an option?
>>
>> As I said, one email to libreboot would have been enough.
>> Also after people told purism that their claims were
>> unfounded, purism did not rectify their websites.
>>
>> It is swindle if you deceive people in order to gain
>> money.
>>
>> About fsf.
>> fsf is known to be strict and harsh in matters of free
>> software. It is a mystery why fsf has acted that amateurishly
>> about purism. That is why I ask, has fsf received money
>> or hardware from purism? Are there people who at the
>> same time represent both fsf and purism?
>>
>>> In general, you're more likely to learn and also to get others to listen
>>> when you express concerns from a position of genuine curiosity without
>>> hints of accusations and other attacks.
>>
>> You do realize I have stated arguments? You have not. A
>> pattern I have noticed from other defenders of purism.
>>
>> fsf has been informed by me and maybe others, how
>> purism has acted. It makes fsf an accessory in
>> purism's fraud. fsf failure on this matter results in loss of
>> credibility among those who are able to look behind
>> purism's deceptions.
>>
>>
>>
>>> It can also help to try to create a *strong-man* argument. Generate the
>>> strongest argument you can for a defense of Purism and FSF, and then see
>>> if that holds up to scrutiny. That's much more insightful than
>>> generating weak or straw-man arguments or speculative suspicions.
>>
>> Start rebut my arguments.
>>
> I made no arguments because I don't have a position on this, I don't
> know that you are are, and I wasn't defending Purism.
>
> What I did was demonstrate a more effective way of communicating by
> verifying if I understood, describing where I agree, and offering
> feedback. All I'm saying is that you are inherently likely to be read
> dismissively with the style of posting you used. Style has no relation
> to accuracy. Someone can have effective style and be wrong or have lousy
> style and be right. But people won't listen to badly-communicated ideas
> that are still right.
>
> To avoid dismissal by others, I suggest you state the clear facts
> distinctly from the accusations and stories. You already did better in
> your reply to me. But for further clarification, something like this:
>
> "Purism claimed working toward X, but X is effectively impossible.
> The suspicion I have is that they are not acting in good faith.
> FSF let them present at LibrePlanet. The story in my mind is: FSF should
> have independently recognized the concerns I have and not trust Purism
> to be acting in good faith."
>
> I don't know if your suspicions are valid or not. All I know is that the
> type of animosity I've seen toward Purism has resulted in posts
> attacking them with language that assumes bad faith rather than posts
> that lead me to share that conclusion. There's a spectrum from misguided
> good faith to all-out bad faith. I don't have enough evidence to convict
> Purism of bad faith, even though I can accept the criticism of some of
> their marketing.
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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_______________________________________________
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https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/12/20 5:25 AM, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> On 2020-03-11 14:33, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
>> My post is about getting official comments from
>> libreplanet and fsf. Of course anybody can
>> reply, but I already know how people attempt
>> to defend purism's behavior.
>>
>>
>> On 3/11/20 8:48 PM, Aaron Wolf wrote:
>>> If I understand you correctly, you believe: Purism marketing talks about
>>> software freedom and the goal of RYF 100% free hardware, but they don't
>>> deliver to that level, and they minimize or hide the details. You worry
>>> that people buy Purism products believing they are getting more complete
>>> freedom than they actually receive. You doubt Purism's good faith, and
>>> because you feel FSF should be skeptical rather than gracious about
>>> these concerns, FSF is making a mistake by giving Purism a platform or
>>> acknowledgment (at least without some explicit qualifiers from FSF about
>>> these concerns). Is that right?
>>
>> Correct.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I agree with you that marketing claims should not mislead people about
>>> the facts of products. Stating a goal of reaching some standard is not
>>> the same as already being there, and the difference should be plain and
>>> transparent.
>>
>> Correct.
>>
>>> I don't find your jump to speculating about bad faith at all warranted.
>>> There's no evidence that FSF is corrupted in any way around this. And
>>> there's inadequate (though perhaps non-zero) evidence that Purism has
>>> any bad faith.
>>
>> https://trisquel.info/en/forum/librem13-fully-free-time
>>
>> educate yourself.
>>
>> About purism they claimed about their notebooks that
>> there was a real possibility that intel would publish
>> the software in question. Everybody in the field
>> know, intel does not publish such
>> pieces of source software.
>>
>> purism claimed reverse engineering was an option. The
>> software in question is signed. Name a cryptographer who will
>> agree, that breaking the cryptography is an option?
>>
>> As I said, one email to libreboot would have been enough.
>> Also after people told purism that their claims were
>> unfounded, purism did not rectify their websites.
>>
>> It is swindle if you deceive people in order to gain
>> money.
>>
>> About fsf.
>> fsf is known to be strict and harsh in matters of free
>> software. It is a mystery why fsf has acted that amateurishly
>> about purism. That is why I ask, has fsf received money
>> or hardware from purism? Are there people who at the
>> same time represent both fsf and purism?
>>
>>> In general, you're more likely to learn and also to get others to listen
>>> when you express concerns from a position of genuine curiosity without
>>> hints of accusations and other attacks.
>>
>> You do realize I have stated arguments? You have not. A
>> pattern I have noticed from other defenders of purism.
>>
>> fsf has been informed by me and maybe others, how
>> purism has acted. It makes fsf an accessory in
>> purism's fraud. fsf failure on this matter results in loss of
>> credibility among those who are able to look behind
>> purism's deceptions.
>>
>>
>>
>>> It can also help to try to create a *strong-man* argument. Generate the
>>> strongest argument you can for a defense of Purism and FSF, and then see
>>> if that holds up to scrutiny. That's much more insightful than
>>> generating weak or straw-man arguments or speculative suspicions.
>>
>> Start rebut my arguments.
>>
> I made no arguments because I don't have a position on this, I don't
> know that you are are, and I wasn't defending Purism.
>
> What I did was demonstrate a more effective way of communicating by
> verifying if I understood, describing where I agree, and offering
> feedback. All I'm saying is that you are inherently likely to be read
> dismissively with the style of posting you used. Style has no relation
> to accuracy. Someone can have effective style and be wrong or have lousy
> style and be right. But people won't listen to badly-communicated ideas
> that are still right.
>
> To avoid dismissal by others, I suggest you state the clear facts
> distinctly from the accusations and stories. You already did better in
> your reply to me. But for further clarification, something like this:
>
> "Purism claimed working toward X, but X is effectively impossible.
> The suspicion I have is that they are not acting in good faith.
> FSF let them present at LibrePlanet. The story in my mind is: FSF should
> have independently recognized the concerns I have and not trust Purism
> to be acting in good faith."
>
> I don't know if your suspicions are valid or not. All I know is that the
> type of animosity I've seen toward Purism has resulted in posts
> attacking them with language that assumes bad faith rather than posts
> that lead me to share that conclusion. There's a spectrum from misguided
> good faith to all-out bad faith. I don't have enough evidence to convict
> Purism of bad faith, even though I can accept the criticism of some of
> their marketing.

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purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/12/20 6:43 AM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 20:10:09 +0100, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
>> This post is directed at officials from libreplanet
>> and fsf.
>>
>> I wrote this post on trisquel's forum.
>> https://paste.nolsen.xyz/?98e7462461e8a46c#8YchW86Fn3UvkxdHbfN74cVVoYkFqCGWCx2tWVX5uvZJ
> Would you mind pasting the text of your message on this list?  I get
> this when I visit the site, and I do not intend to enable JS:
>
>    JavaScript is required for Such PrivateBin to work. Sorry for the
>    inconvenience.
>
> Pasting will also allow people to quote inline and respond to specific points.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/12/20 9:56 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> Félicien Pillot, 11/03/20 23:05:
>> What's wrong??
>
> ninhar has raised such topics earlier in the Replicant mailing list,
> see for instance:
> https://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/replicant/2019-November/002268.html
>
> "Report from 36C3" is AFAICT the best summary of the status of play as
> we know it.
> https://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/replicant/2020-January/002441.html
>
> If the proposal is to ban from LibrePlanet all companies and products
> which are not RYF certified, I doubt that's advisable.
>
> Federico
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/14/20 11:04 AM, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> On 3/11/20 11:10 PM, Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
>>    I'm not really sure how Purism is any worse than companies like Think
>>    Penguin, or than the machines are any less freedom respecting


No. You are not. Purism is worse because
they have lied about which level in terms of free software buyers
could expect purism products to achieve.

You are insulting thinkpenguin by your statement. There
are no reports of thinkpenguin having lied about how free software
thinkpenguin products are.



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Re: purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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>>    In my opinion moving in one step from all closed source to all open
>>    source freedom respecting is very hard or practically impossible. I am
>>    happy people are doing steps towards all open source and no hidden
>>    stuff. One valid step is modern hardware running open source Operating
>>    System out of the box. Another valid step is adding open source freedom
>>    respecting bios (i.e. libreboot) to that. Another valid step is ... Let
>>    us not forget the goal and keep doing steps. Small or big. All is
>>    welcome for the benefit of mankind.


You are mixing things up. purism can make what products they
want. What they cannot do is lie about the properties
of their products. Do not tell people respect your freedom
certification is an option, when it is not. And at every given
opportunity, people should get to know, purism has
a track record of lying.



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Re: purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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On 3/14/20 11:09 AM, a via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> On 3/12/20 9:56 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
>> Félicien Pillot, 11/03/20 23:05:
>>> What's wrong??
>> ninhar has raised such topics earlier in the Replicant mailing list,
>> see for instance:
>> https://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/replicant/2019-November/002268.html
>>

I always tell people.
you should too.

>>
>> "Report from 36C3" is AFAICT the best summary of the status of play as
>> we know it.
>> https://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/replicant/2020-January/002441.html
>>
>> If the proposal is to ban from LibrePlanet all companies and products
>> which are not RYF certified, I doubt that's advisable.

It is not. It it about not giving a lying company an
option to speak unchallenged. If steps would be
taken such that purism would be confronted with their
history of lies then I have no objection about purism
giving a talk.





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Re: purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[Hector Espinoza]

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I agree about liying or misleading. Without ethics nothing works. I am
talking in general not specific case.

El dom., 15 de mar. de 2020, 09:15, a via libreplanet-discuss <
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> escribió:

>
>
> >>    In my opinion moving in one step from all closed source to all open
> >>    source freedom respecting is very hard or practically impossible. I
> am
> >>    happy people are doing steps towards all open source and no hidden
> >>    stuff. One valid step is modern hardware running open source
> Operating
> >>    System out of the box. Another valid step is adding open source
> freedom
> >>    respecting bios (i.e. libreboot) to that. Another valid step is ...
> Let
> >>    us not forget the goal and keep doing steps. Small or big. All is
> >>    welcome for the benefit of mankind.
>
>
> You are mixing things up. purism can make what products they
> want. What they cannot do is lie about the properties
> of their products. Do not tell people respect your freedom
> certification is an option, when it is not. And at every given
> opportunity, people should get to know, purism has
> a track record of lying.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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   I agree about liying or misleading. Without ethics nothing works. I am
   talking in general not specific case.

   El dom., 15 de mar. de 2020, 09:15, a via libreplanet-discuss
   <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> escribió:

     >>    In my opinion moving in one step from all closed source to all
     open
     >>    source freedom respecting is very hard or practically
     impossible. I am
     >>    happy people are doing steps towards all open source and no
     hidden
     >>    stuff. One valid step is modern hardware running open source
     Operating
     >>    System out of the box. Another valid step is adding open
     source freedom
     >>    respecting bios (i.e. libreboot) to that. Another valid step
     is ... Let
     >>    us not forget the goal and keep doing steps. Small or big. All
     is
     >>    welcome for the benefit of mankind.
     You are mixing things up. purism can make what products they
     want. What they cannot do is lie about the properties
     of their products. Do not tell people respect your freedom
     certification is an option, when it is not. And at every given
     opportunity, people should get to know, purism has
     a track record of lying.
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s

References

   1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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> I agree about liying or misleading. Without ethics nothing works. I am
> talking in general not specific case.


It is shameless how purism
has deceived people.





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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[Jean Louis]

Hello,

* a via libreplanet-discuss <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> [2020-03-12 04:18]:
> > If I understand correctly...
> >
> > First, you criticise Purism for saying that soon they would be supported
> > by the FSF.
> > Then, you criticise the FSF for having supported Purism soon after that.
> >
> > What's wrong??
> 
> 
> I am criticizing purism for fraudulent behavior. I say purism is
> using fsf in purism's deceptions. The major question is why fsf has
> let it take place?

Purism is a company, if you have a problem with that company, complain
to that.

When you already mentioned it, what exactly is then "fraudulent
behavior"? Why you not give the exact facts?

Then finally what is "fraudulent" is defined by the law, if you have
been deceived by Purism, which I deeply doubt, please complain to
proper authorities.

How is Purism using FSF in Purism's deceptions? I would like to
understand what you are talking about.

Jean

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Re: purism why does fsf and libreboot embrace a misleading company?

[a via libreplanet-discuss]

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> Purism is a company, if you have a problem with that company, complain
> to that.


Read the initial post. The message is directed at fsf and
libreplanet officials. Others answered and I decided not
to ignore their posts. I responded. About purism, they
know because they have been told. Posting here was
about getting fsf and libreplanet to step away from purism.

>
> When you already mentioned it, what exactly is then "fraudulent
> behavior"? Why you not give the exact facts?


Read my replies to aaron.

>
> Then finally what is "fraudulent" is defined by the law, if you have
> been deceived by Purism, which I deeply doubt, please complain to
> proper authorities.


purism has not swindled me, because I have not purchased any of
their products. I doubt an american prosecutor will take interest
in this case.

>
> How is Purism using FSF in Purism's deceptions? I would like to
> understand what you are talking about.

purism knows even guarded recommendations from
fsf can be favorable for purism's sale. Therefore my request to
fsf about not making announcements on purism without
mentioning purism's lies.


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