hi, "Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? " yes, you are right. that was the point of the first part of my letter.. trying to show how i see Debs letter, fully emotionally charged as was my first part. like a mirror. to show how i see her letter, you understand what i mean (english is not my native, some thoughts are harder to express, sorry)? my main point tough is, that division is making us weak and confused. between was just a try to "open" her eyes in the flawed logic of emotions as a basis for constructive dialog. regards g On 15. 04. 21 21:38, Danny Spitzberg wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM gregor > wrote: > >  hi Deb, all. > >    hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes: > >    i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same >    seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of > decades of a >    lag. > >    reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another > planet. > >    if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would > happen, i >    would bet my arm that it wouldn't. >    your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of >    freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of. > > > >    the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations > > > Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? > > of how to >    conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no > need for >    critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the > ancients >    called wisdom) > >    those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign > country. >    now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same >    force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up > with. (and >    also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as >    such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile) > >    let me walk trough your letter Deb > >    On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: > >    Hi, >    As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours > running >    FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half >    dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS >    treating them differently, > >    differently? as oppose to what? samely? > >  hitting on them at a conference, > >    oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she >    approves of it?) how does that work? > >  loudly >    interrupting a young person's talk > >    only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, > interupting >    someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched > dr. RMS, >    and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i >    would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my > position for >    which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am > sure he >    would go revisiting his. > >  or involving them in a mortifying >    public joke about virginity. > >    mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing >    joke, once you hear it you die > >  In particular, I have had several young >    women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet > because >    RMS might yell at me." > >    hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a > smile and a >    cheer fills the room. > >    Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or > girlfriend to >    these events because the last time they did RMS or other free > software >    representatives were awful to them. > >    were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were >    awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses >    everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends >    feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around >    what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems > like those >    couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of the >    world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a > mans >    club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge >    point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral > pronoun >    which is not sexist at all > >  Having a leader who inspires others >    to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net >    positive for the free software movement. > >    contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to > be the >    way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the whole >    world. it lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you > constantly >    argue against your own principle. > >    Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the >    people who've had these interactions with RMS or his > representatives >    choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their > volunteer time? > >    truth shall prevail. meanwhile bombs are still killing the > innocent ... >    ever, ever, ever much? > >    I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF > mostly still >    support him. What's sad is that the free software movement > should be >    much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only > accepting >    people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement. > >    in all your posts you have managed to belittle yourself in my eyes >    completely. mind you, couldn't it be argued that dr. RMS is > harassed >    and bullied? one could even naively ask by whom? (wink wink) > >  We should >    be able to work on free software without that gate. > >    i can not see the connection between "promote computer user > freedom" >    e.g. free software project and a gate. what gate does dr. RMS > present >    to you that inhibits your work for the computer user freedom? > >    You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I > understand that >    it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that > letter have >    spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free software >    *with RMS.* He hasn't listened. > >    could it be he listened but didn't react the way you wanted? > >  It's completely false to draw a >    parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete > strangers at >    an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free > software >    supporters. > >    would need to see some examples finally of this rudeness you keep >    referring to. try finding ones that weren't provoked so as not > to waste >    more time with a straw man. (down below you used open hardware, > is the >    perfect example where one could scream: not open, free/libre - > after so >    many years in the movement you still spread propaganda mixing > free and >    open) > >    RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving > it and >    that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the > struggle >    for freedom though. > >    the freedom you are fighting for here is known in my world as >    "political correctness". see, its political. FSF is not a political >    platform, find another platform for (in my opinion highjacked, > using >    grassroots and perverting it for some agenda unbeknown to me) > movement >    of political correctness. >    i stand strongly on my political views, but see, they are not > important >    for FSF, i mean: for the part where they intersect they are the > same, >    where they don't intersect i won't bother pushing my flat earth > theory >    on FSF... was a parable, am actually still a globe-er :),  > ohoho and by >    the way, planet is not a correct term, since etimologically it > means >    plane not globe, so lets all start calling the planet globet) > >  And there are many aspects of even computer freedom >    that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against >    persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open Hardware, > >    here you go, this is the point i see myself yelling also > >  pushing >    for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of > algorithms >    that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the > criminal >    justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like > drones or >    amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals. > >    for some of those you should make your own foundation. some > could find >    a sweet spot in FSF projects. also with some i disagree - > technology is >    not bad per se, it's the use of it that can be bad. > > The struggle for >    freedom has to be more than one person and more than one > organization. > >    exactly. why highjack dr. RMS and FSF, when you should make > your own, >    thus making it "more than one organization"??? and you again do > some >    word twisting - struggle for freedom is not what the stated > mission of >    FSF is ("mission to promote computer user freedom."). > >    If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I fear >    that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that > would be >    terrible because software freedom is extremely important and > that's why >    I'm continuing to engage here. > >    hmm, seems to me that by equating people's concerns with your own >    concerns (or of a group of people) puts you in the position of the >    arbiter. you like to do that over and over again, i wonder if >    knowingly? > >    i am sure FSF is willing to listen to all concerns. what they > do with >    them might be different form one concern to other one. and  again, >    different from what you want. > >    Once i wrote a personal letter to dr. RMS, and to my big > surprise, i >    got an answer. me, just a schmuck, i never expected for him to > bother >    with some small talk with just some guy. he took the time. he > took the >    time. > >    Best, >    Deb >    On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva > [1]<[1]lxoliva@fsfla.org > >    wrote: > >      On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson > [2]<[2]deb@eximiousproductions.com > > >      wrote: >      > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to > disbelieve >      former FSF >      > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at >      conferences or MIT >      > and many, many free software creators. >      That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into > account, >      before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and > attackers, >      and >      before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and > distortions >      to >      spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have > failed to >      spark. >      These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the > legitimacy >      of >      claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who >      opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those > of the >      corporate-funded coalition.  That may be illogical, but it's > often a >      valuable heuristics.  Call it karma if you wish. >      Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual sexual >      harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight > from the >      source.  Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people on > dates, >      keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of the >      existence >      of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution against >      leaps >      to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry and >      being >      loud are not it IMHO.  Hearsay about the same half dozen > rumors over >      a >      period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own investigations >      haven't >      hit a dead end before something concrete popped up.  I > encourage you >      to >      let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep me on >      copy. >      > The vast majority of the people who signed the letter > asking for >      RMS >      > to step down, care deeply about free software. >      I encourage them (you) to behave as such, instead of associating >      with >      historical opponents, and working so hard to divide us.  It's > become >      really hard to believe in that commitment, and in good intentions >      behind >      the actions, given the present circumstances. >      -- >      Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker  > [3][3]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ >         Free Software Activist         GNU Toolchain Engineer >              Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar > > References > >    1. [4]mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org >    2. [5]mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com > >    3. [6]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ > > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > [7]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > [8]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > >    i grew up in a socialist country (oh, did i mention that usa > bombed it, >    yes) and what i am seeing now in the west reminds me of the > brainwash >    propaganda i grew up in 40 odd years back. and yes, is totally > wrong >    and always makes me a bit angry when westerners say a communist >    country, it shows the lack of knowledge. all them (us) commies were >    socialist countries, please be politically correct when you > call them. >    also china today is not and never was communist, it is > socialist. read >    up, educate, and be correct. > >    also so many times i hear americans this americans that. so > politically >    incorrect, when referring to citizens of usa and calling them >    americans, you "insult" all central and south americans and > canadians. >    please be politically correct. > >    etc. > >    if you caught my point, there is not always the need to be > politically >    correct, if the exchange of information was correct and no party of >    exchange was insulted, then the strict semantic can loosen up. > but if >    you keep being insulted by this, that and my uncle, well then > you might >    be quite a bigot (for the many times you've insulted south > americans, >    and a billion and a half socialist chinese people, etc) > >    Notice also that i began the letter with an emotionally charged >    personal views/feelings, just as you did, again to show you the > mirror. > >    So, as i began with quite an emotional tone, let me finish with an >    apology. We, the people should stand united in our differences and >    should try understanding each other and even when we don't, we >    shouldn't impose ways of behavior on others (of course, all > within roza >    luxembourg maxim). is not really that hard, even if my reply > doesn't >    show it much. So i hope you can accept my apologies for being > blunt and >    a bit rude (when i grew up, back then, that kind of exchange wasn't >    necessarily being seen as rude at all) >    I hope, truly sincerely hope that one day, we (you and me and > all) will >    no longer fight where fight isn't due. and class struggle > becomes one >    class struggle, all class struggle. it feels even, that once not >    divided, victory is here. > >    i salute you all from once socialist country > >    g > > References > >    1. mailto:[1]lxoliva@fsfla.org >    2. mailto:[2]deb@eximiousproductions.com > >    3. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ >    4. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org >    5. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com > >    6. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ >    7. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > >    8. > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > >