From: Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net>
To: Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com>
Cc: Danny Spitzberg <stationaery@gmail.com>,
"Libre Planet, World" <libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
Subject: Re: Support RMS
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:38:55 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <F18ABDFC-C16B-41AA-A0A5-8A9CA4CC593A@riseup.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAE3dWx-VLwkQMG_5GLnCKYb4T3WTQBKLgcLsfw7sixDT9gPcwA@mail.gmail.com>
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Hello Deb,
I hope you're well.
Sorry for your experience. However, I should mention that I've been working directly with RMS along with many women and never seen such thing. I can't explain anything on behalf of RMS or GNU, but I can talk about my personal experience and my women colleagues which was nothing but nice.
You mentioned people leaving, I should mention thousands who are coming back because of RMS.
As far as I'm concerned, RMS is not convicted of anything and there is no proof of harassment. Until then, I urge everybody to defend truth against false accusations.
On March 26, 2021 1:18:13 PM UTC, Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who has left most
>of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the extremely
>toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I stayed on the
>LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate seeing the
>occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support of free
>software.
>
>RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm one of the people
>who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance against sexism
>in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens, and to re-consider
>his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of transgender people in
>our communities.
>
>I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to choose free
>software for everything. There is no way for free software to win if
>hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after they get sick of
>the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our communities. People take
>their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over again that he is
>not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a movement that grows,
>instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then RMS shouldn't lead.
>
>Sincerely,
>Deb Nicholson
>
>On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net> wrote:
>
>> Hello Danny.
>>
>> I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything wrong
>> here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've seen gay
>> people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, after all,
>> that's just jokes and humor.
>>
>> About being offended, again that's not a problem with RMS. Maybe he
>> hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice person
>> to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up person. Every
>> person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many people in my
>> life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
>>
>> If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion and
>> respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's again
>> respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.
>>
>> However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've signed
>> is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to defending
>> truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
>>
>> I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because defending
>> truth is important.
>>
>> Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's just your
>> personal conflict/disappointment.
>>
>> On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>> > I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia shares
>> > several years of experience working at FSF and directly with RMS. Ali,
>> > their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software movement
>> > needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
>> > https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
>> > <https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
>> > “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a while. I
>> > recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED John Sullivan
>> > about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s needed to be
>> > removed from gnu.org <http://gnu.org>. rms didn't get why it was
>> harmful.
>> >
>> > Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a technical manual? He
>> > threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people (who respected
>> > him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that wasn't cool.
>> >
>> > The thing that randos who have never had to actually work with rms don't
>> > understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried to help
>> > him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at Libreplanet as if
>> > it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'
>> >
>> > Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been spent advocating
>> > for free to software and building the inclusive, impractical community
>> > so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over and over.
>> >
>> > This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free software community
>> > is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to work with a bunch
>> > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, organizing Libreplanet
>> > was my job & introduced me to amazing people from across the world
>> >
>> > free software has the ability to do so much good, but there's an ugly
>> > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced consequences
>> > for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the decades of shitty
>> > behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his return
>> >
>> > It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because we don't focus
>> > on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by assholes sealioning
>> > for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER enough) it's
>> > possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now. DON'T LET THEM
>> >
>> > My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I made a pull
>> > request in order to sign on to this letter.
>> > https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ <https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
>> >
>> > One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this. They didn't ask
>> > for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' apparently impromptu
>> > announcement, they labor for the organization and for the community
>> > every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive director.”
>> >
>> > The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500 individuals,
>> > including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net
>> > <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board of directors.
>> Now,
>> > some organizations and people are attacking FSF and RMS and are
>> asking
>> > them to resign.
>> >
>> > Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to resist this
>> > pressure and continue work for the good of the software libre
>> movement.
>> >
>> > Sending message to info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org> is a way of
>> > showing your support. They
>> > are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step down from our
>> > principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
>> >
>> > On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>> > > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of support for RMS.
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
>> > <hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>
>> > > <mailto:hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > People,
>> > >
>> > > FSF board has received lots of messages today and there's no
>> > need to
>> > > add
>> > > to the pile. Please send your support for RMS to info@fsf.org
>> > <mailto:info@fsf.org>
>> > > <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>> and ask
>> > > them to resist pressures and stay with us.
>> > >
>> > > Software libre is a matter of justice. If we can learn one
>> > thing from
>> > > the whole movement is to keep our principals and fight for
>> > justice. FSF
>> > > made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not to defend RMS
>> > against
>> > > false
>> > > accusations. Today, we can make that right by supporting a
>> > wonderful
>> > > honorable man.
>> > >
>> > > Show your support by sending messages to info@fsf.org
>> > <mailto:info@fsf.org>
>> > > <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>>. Do it now, later
>> > > may be late.
>> > >
>> > > Best.
>> > > --
>> > > Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com
>> > <https://alirezahayati.com> <https://alirezahayati.com
>> > <https://alirezahayati.com>>)
>> > > Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>> > > PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> > <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
>> > > <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> > <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
>> > >
>> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>> > <https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>
>> > >
>> > <
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss <
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>>
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com <
>> https://alirezahayati.com>)
>> > Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>> > PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
>> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
--
Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-03-26 13:40 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 216+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-03-25 23:57 Support RMS Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 0:19 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 1:04 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 1:40 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-03-26 3:29 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-03-26 4:57 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 1:47 ` Steve M Bibayoff
2021-03-26 14:50 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 15:54 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-26 16:40 ` Yuchen Pei
2021-03-26 16:53 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-26 17:03 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 21:27 ` quiliro
2021-03-27 21:52 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-26 17:05 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 17:28 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 19:59 ` quiliro
2021-03-27 20:19 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-27 19:55 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 19:25 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-30 3:23 ` quiliro
2021-03-30 3:44 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-30 7:25 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 17:24 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 17:32 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 17:39 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 17:46 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 17:51 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 17:55 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 17:59 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 21:18 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 18:00 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 18:02 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 18:06 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 18:09 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 21:14 ` quiliro
2021-03-31 14:38 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-31 15:19 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-31 17:26 ` Miles Fidelman
[not found] ` <YGSqlIc9U3D/7JMB@protected.localdomain>
2021-03-31 17:25 ` Proposals to improve FSF (was a thread about FSF union) Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 18:11 ` Support RMS Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 18:15 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 18:25 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 19:02 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-27 21:13 ` quiliro
2021-03-26 21:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 21:15 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 21:14 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 21:11 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 2:16 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 6:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 19:52 ` Quiliro Ordóñez
2021-03-27 17:40 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-29 1:35 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 19:06 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 20:32 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 4:36 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 12:29 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 13:18 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 13:35 ` Yuchen Pei
2021-03-26 13:38 ` Ali Reza Hayati [this message]
2021-03-26 13:49 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 14:03 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 14:17 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 14:26 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 14:37 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 20:59 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 23:03 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 23:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 23:59 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 5:53 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 23:56 ` noise - [was Support RMS] Miles Fidelman
2021-03-27 0:16 ` Support RMS Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 0:18 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 2:29 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 2:50 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 5:47 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 5:53 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 6:23 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 12:06 ` Robbt
2021-03-27 12:28 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 12:36 ` Stephen Paul Weber
2021-03-27 12:41 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 13:41 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-31 21:16 ` Matt Ivie
2021-04-01 7:25 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 18:44 ` Florian Snow
2021-03-26 19:28 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 21:26 ` Elias Rudberg
2021-03-26 22:01 ` Florian Snow
2021-03-27 23:15 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 19:52 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-30 23:54 ` quiliro
2021-03-26 21:33 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 22:20 ` Florian Snow
2021-03-26 20:48 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 13:27 ` Robbt E
2021-03-26 20:56 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 20:40 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-31 20:57 ` Matt Ivie
2021-03-26 14:22 ` Adonay Felipe Nogueira via libreplanet-discuss
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-03-27 5:08 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 5:32 ` Máirín Duffy
2021-03-27 6:41 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 5:35 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-29 12:25 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 12:49 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-29 14:46 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-29 17:34 ` Lusin via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-27 5:58 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 6:13 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 6:23 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 6:25 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 6:35 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 11:42 ` Neils Nesse
2021-03-27 12:12 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 6:30 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 17:45 ` Danny Spitzberg
[not found] ` <YF96LdwX+DQx/0FH@protected.localdomain>
2021-03-27 19:07 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-31 0:15 ` quiliro
2021-03-31 0:06 ` quiliro
2021-03-27 6:18 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-04-12 11:23 Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-12 17:32 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-12 17:57 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-12 18:17 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-13 5:37 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-04-13 5:57 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-13 6:58 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-04-13 16:44 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-13 12:53 ` Dennis Payne
2021-04-13 15:30 ` quiliro
2021-04-14 0:56 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-14 1:00 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-14 1:35 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-14 1:42 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-14 15:36 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-14 19:07 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 19:28 ` Deb Nicholson
[not found] ` <YHdGE/dikVycAXWJ@protected.localdomain>
2021-04-14 20:00 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-14 20:37 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 20:23 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-14 20:55 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 23:13 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 7:51 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 1:13 ` quiliro
2021-04-15 1:53 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 2:29 ` quiliro
2021-04-15 8:20 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 16:13 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-15 17:00 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 17:24 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 17:39 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 17:47 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 17:51 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 17:43 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 0:54 ` quiliro
2021-04-16 1:12 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 3:51 ` quiliro
2021-04-16 4:59 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 6:04 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 6:56 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 16:09 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 16:46 ` Ali Reza Hayati
[not found] ` <orpmysp80e.fsf@lxoliva.fsfla.org>
2021-04-18 4:48 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-18 5:19 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-18 5:24 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-15 17:23 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-15 17:39 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-15 18:43 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 20:59 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-15 22:40 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 22:49 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 4:36 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 4:43 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 5:02 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 5:21 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 6:22 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 6:48 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 7:25 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 8:07 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 10:48 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 14:09 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 14:52 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-16 19:26 ` Jean Louis
[not found] ` <CAEYaDQNahppkCt5kEytkaJ34a9zoUXt=W93f8sJErsyvceiXYA@mail.gmail.com>
2021-04-16 10:52 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 21:06 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 21:04 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 21:49 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 22:04 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 22:08 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 22:55 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-16 21:56 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-16 22:12 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 22:18 ` Thomas Lord
[not found] ` <YHqAGLJeGFiJTZ2V@protected.localdomain>
2021-04-18 17:15 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-16 4:45 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 5:00 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 3:45 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 18:44 ` Lusin via libreplanet-discuss
2021-04-15 18:39 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 18:41 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 22:19 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 22:34 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 23:37 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-16 4:49 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 4:21 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 4:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 20:15 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 21:00 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-15 21:10 ` Matt Ivie
2021-04-16 6:35 ` Federico Leva (Nemo)
2021-04-14 14:48 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-14 17:19 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-14 18:52 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 18:23 ` Jean Louis
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