Is Stallman nuts?

Is Stallman nuts?

[MARY-ANNE WOLF]

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing


https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794


I have been a financial supporter of FSF since... 2011 at least.  I first used emacs in... the 1980's I think it was.


Way to drive away any female supporter of FSF and Libre software generally, Richard! I really did think you were smarter than that.


Look!  A person underage (and the age is defined differently in different states) CANNOT give consent to sex.  That is why there is such a thing as statutory rape.  Thus, whether the young lady was paid (and prostitution is also illegal in most places, and transporting someone for purpose of prostitution also) and whether she was willing in any other sense, if she was too young, she CANNOT have given consent to sex, so the sex MUST have been rape as legally defined.


If Stallman is too stupid to understand that, the FSF needs to throw him out with force and distance itself from him as fast as they can, before FSF loses the support of most of its female supporters and a large fraction of its more woke male supporters.


Is Stallman nuts?


Mary-Anne
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[lily via libreplanet-discuss]

If it is true that Stallman called these victims as willing. I entirely agree with Marry-Anne. The Free Software movement already lacks female support and these comments will only push more women away. I as a woman who has also suffered harrassment as a child and as an adult, do not want a leader who says things that hurt women. Stallman, you cannot do this. We as members must be strong and have someone else represent us period. FSF should take a stand and provide support for women and actively invite women to a space where we know we are supported, believed in and respected.

Lily

-------- Original Message --------
On Sep 15, 2019, 10:35 AM, MARY-ANNE WOLF wrote:

> https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing
>
> https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
>
> I have been a financial supporter of FSF since... 2011 at least. I first used emacs in... the 1980's I think it was.
>
> Way to drive away any female supporter of FSF and Libre software generally, Richard! I really did think you were smarter than that.
>
> Look! A person underage (and the age is defined differently in different states) CANNOT give consent to sex. That is why there is such a thing as statutory rape. Thus, whether the young lady was paid (and prostitution is also illegal in most places, and transporting someone for purpose of prostitution also) and whether she was willing in any other sense, if she was too young, she CANNOT have given consent to sex, so the sex MUST have been rape as legally defined.
>
> If Stallman is too stupid to understand that, the FSF needs to throw him out with force and distance itself from him as fast as they can, before FSF loses the support of most of its female supporters and a large fraction of its more woke male supporters.
>
> Is Stallman nuts?
>
> Mary-Anne
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Thomas Lord]

Remarkably, in order to make their allegations against Stallman, both
Selam G. and Edward Ongweso Jr. must speak untruthfully about what
Stallman wrote. 

Selam G., for example, writes:  "…and then [Stallman] says that an
enslaved child could, somehow, be "entirely willing"."   Yet, what
Stallman actually  wrote was that if the victim were being coerced by
Epstein, he thinks it most likely that she would have been directed to
conceal that coercion from Minsky and others.    The two statements are
very different.   What Salem G. falsely attributes to Stallman would
indeed be very damning -- but it is not what Stallman wrote at all. 

Edward Ongweso Jr. offers this slander:  "Early in the thread, Stallman
insists that the "most plausible scenario" is that Epstein's underage
victims were "entirely willing" while being trafficked."   The truth,
however, is that Stallman wrote: "We can imagine many scenarios, but the
most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely
willing."   Two two statements are, again, very different.  Ongweso
Jr.'s false paraphrase is about whether the young woman was willing. 
Stallman's is about how, under the circumstances, the young woman might
have appeared to Minsky to be willing, for example if she were directed
to conceal the coercion. 

Accusations such as Salem G. and Ongweso Jr. make are made to cause harm
to the accused.  That is how  they appear to be made in this context:
with the aim of harming Stallman.  Yet in order to accomplish this harm,
both Salem G. and Ongweso Jr. must abandon the truth in favor of
statements falsely attributed to Stallman. 

It would be appropriate, in my opinion, for both writers to retract
their critical misstatements of fact. 

-t 

On 2019-09-15 10:35, MARY-ANNE WOLF wrote:

> https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing
> 
> https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
> 
> I have been a financial supporter of FSF since... 2011 at least.  I first used emacs in... the 1980's I think it was.
> 
> Way to drive away any female supporter of FSF and Libre software generally, Richard! I really did think you were smarter than that.
> 
> Look!  A person underage (and the age is defined differently in different states) CANNOT give consent to sex.  That is why there is such a thing as statutory rape.  Thus, whether the young lady was paid (and prostitution is also illegal in most places, and transporting someone for purpose of prostitution also) and whether she was willing in any other sense, if she was too young, she CANNOT have given consent to sex, so the sex MUST have been rape as legally defined.
> 
> If Stallman is too stupid to understand that, the FSF needs to throw him out with force and distance itself from him as fast as they can, before FSF loses the support of most of its female supporters and a large fraction of its more woke male supporters.
> 
> Is Stallman nuts?
> 
> Mary-Anne
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[C. Cossé]

Changing one little word changes a lot.

In the original post (your 2nd link) the author blatantly changes the
wording to:

…and then he says that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely
willing”.

From RMS's words:  We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible
scenario is that
she presented herself to him as entirely willing ...

Keyword differences "being" and "presenting herself as being"

I'm not condoning anything, but I am calling attention to a blatant
mis-quote that the op makes central to her outrage.






On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 10:35 AM MARY-ANNE WOLF <mgwmgw@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing
>
>
> https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
>
>
> I have been a financial supporter of FSF since... 2011 at least.  I first
> used emacs in... the 1980's I think it was.
>
>
> Way to drive away any female supporter of FSF and Libre software
> generally, Richard! I really did think you were smarter than that.
>
>
> Look!  A person underage (and the age is defined differently in different
> states) CANNOT give consent to sex.  That is why there is such a thing as
> statutory rape.  Thus, whether the young lady was paid (and prostitution is
> also illegal in most places, and transporting someone for purpose of
> prostitution also) and whether she was willing in any other sense, if she
> was too young, she CANNOT have given consent to sex, so the sex MUST have
> been rape as legally defined.
>
>
> If Stallman is too stupid to understand that, the FSF needs to throw him
> out with force and distance itself from him as fast as they can, before FSF
> loses the support of most of its female supporters and a large fraction of
> its more woke male supporters.
>
>
> Is Stallman nuts?
>
>
> Mary-Anne
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss



-- 

ccosse.github.io
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Michael Downey]

I have not read the commentary articles, nor do I intend to. I have, on the other hand, read the comments by the FSF President and Board member on the mailing list in question. They are entirely inappropriate comments for someone in his public position to be making.

I spend my day job trying to convince large governments and NGO's of the value of free software. Once again they see the FSF leader behaving inappropriately and I have to make excuses for him and the organization that continues to provide him safe harbor, and explain that they don't represent the values of the free software movement. 

I'm exhausted of doing that. The board has had many opportunities to remove him from his role yet each time back down. 

As a single individual associate member, I can't do much. But I can (and have) revoked my 15+ year membership and am removing all references to the FSF in materials from my day job. We just can't be associated with that kind of public behavior any more.

The letter I sent to the FSF follows. I'll be unsubscribing from this mailing list too, unfortunately, but encourage others to reconsider their support until the board acts in a way true to its public charter. For the sake of software freedom, I hope my absence is short-lived.

- Michael

FSF associate member #2352 (since 2004-05-20) here. I also accepted the Free Software Award for Projects of Social Benefit several years ago.

It’s unfortunate to hear yet another incident about the FSF President’s unacceptable behavior in the news again.

Despite all the good things this organization does, this continued behavior while holding the role makes it untenable for me to publicly support the FSF. And that’s a bad thing for software freedom.

Software freedom is an important human right, but if one has to publicly trample others’ human rights in order to get there, one undermines one’s own cause.

With his continued behavior over the years, Stallman has done damage to our movement that will take a very long time to repair. It’s time for him to step down and let the next generation lead this critical movement into the future.

Should he be unwilling to do so, I note that based upon my review of the FSF bylaws, the Board has the power to remove the person in office of President with or without cause upon vote of the board. (Article VI, Section 7.) 

Until that time, I must regrettably cancel my associate membership. 

/s/



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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[TechLibre]

I live in Peru, and nobody is out in the Shipibo villages arresting 18 year old polygamous fathers with 14-16 year old wives.

Let's give them a laptop so Mary Anne can use her offense to send the troops in.

Maybe then those barbarians will learn to never question the parenting skills of people who allow their minor children to go on weekends with grown men in the Virgin Islands.

Law is a matter of power, not justice. If someone's opionion angers you, that's called cognitive dissonance. It means more rhetoric is needed, not acts of coercion, public shaming or violence.

This conversation about consent isn't comfortable for anybody, but if the real issue of child rape is to be resloved and the predators made to restore something to their victims, it will not improve.

Making Stallman your target will allow the real monsters to get away in the smoke screen. 

After all nobody is screaming like this as MIT tech blows up little kids, and that...that's offensive.

And now you can ban me & my offensive Quaker opinions too.

-- 
Freesoftware is Agorism for you computer.

On September 15, 2019 12:35:37 PM GMT-05:00, MARY-ANNE WOLF <mgwmgw@comcast.net> wrote:
>https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing
>
>
>https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
>
>
>I have been a financial supporter of FSF since... 2011 at least.  I
>first used emacs in... the 1980's I think it was.
>
>
>Way to drive away any female supporter of FSF and Libre software
>generally, Richard! I really did think you were smarter than that.
>
>
>Look!  A person underage (and the age is defined differently in
>different states) CANNOT give consent to sex.  That is why there is
>such a thing as statutory rape.  Thus, whether the young lady was paid
>(and prostitution is also illegal in most places, and transporting
>someone for purpose of prostitution also) and whether she was willing
>in any other sense, if she was too young, she CANNOT have given consent
>to sex, so the sex MUST have been rape as legally defined.
>
>
>If Stallman is too stupid to understand that, the FSF needs to throw
>him out with force and distance itself from him as fast as they can,
>before FSF loses the support of most of its female supporters and a
>large fraction of its more woke male supporters.
>
>
>Is Stallman nuts?
>
>
>Mary-Anne
>_______________________________________________
>libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
_______________________________________________
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https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[MARY-ANNE WOLF]

Let me make sure that I understand the distinction that is being claimed here.  A young lady who is in fact young enough to be below the age of giving sexual consent "presents herself as being willing" to Epstein, an adult man aged over 21.  This happens with multiple underage girls on more than one occasion.

So if Epstein has sex with each underage girl after she "presents herself as being willing", are you arguing that statutory rape has not occured?  If so, on what grounds?

If it were one girl, we could debate whether Epstein believed that the young lady was older than was the case.  If we are talking about multiple underage girls, using an airplane named "The Lolita Express" that becomes much less plausible. I think we can assume he knew how young they were.

So if a girl too young to give sexual consent tries to do so, and an adult male repeatedly acts as if he believes that she is old enough to give consent, does her action get him off the hook?  I do not think so. And if this happens with girl after girl after girl after girl?  Really?

If you believe that statutory rape did occur, then what does presenting herself as willing have to do with it?  Why bring that up?  Legally speaking, she was raped, no matter what she said first.

So how is Stallman not trying to excuse statutory rape by what he posted?

Mary-Anne


> On September 15, 2019 at 2:46 PM Michael Downey <michael@downey.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have not read the commentary articles, nor do I intend to. I have, on the other hand, read the comments by the FSF President and Board member on the mailing list in question. They are entirely inappropriate comments for someone in his public position to be making.
> 
> I spend my day job trying to convince large governments and NGO's of the value of free software. Once again they see the FSF leader behaving inappropriately and I have to make excuses for him and the organization that continues to provide him safe harbor, and explain that they don't represent the values of the free software movement. 
> 
> I'm exhausted of doing that. The board has had many opportunities to remove him from his role yet each time back down. 
> 
> As a single individual associate member, I can't do much. But I can (and have) revoked my 15+ year membership and am removing all references to the FSF in materials from my day job. We just can't be associated with that kind of public behavior any more.
> 
> The letter I sent to the FSF follows. I'll be unsubscribing from this mailing list too, unfortunately, but encourage others to reconsider their support until the board acts in a way true to its public charter. For the sake of software freedom, I hope my absence is short-lived.
> 
> - Michael
> 
> FSF associate member #2352 (since 2004-05-20) here. I also accepted the Free Software Award for Projects of Social Benefit several years ago.
> 
> It’s unfortunate to hear yet another incident about the FSF President’s unacceptable behavior in the news again.
> 
> Despite all the good things this organization does, this continued behavior while holding the role makes it untenable for me to publicly support the FSF. And that’s a bad thing for software freedom.
> 
> Software freedom is an important human right, but if one has to publicly trample others’ human rights in order to get there, one undermines one’s own cause.
> 
> With his continued behavior over the years, Stallman has done damage to our movement that will take a very long time to repair. It’s time for him to step down and let the next generation lead this critical movement into the future.
> 
> Should he be unwilling to do so, I note that based upon my review of the FSF bylaws, the Board has the power to remove the person in office of President with or without cause upon vote of the board. (Article VI, Section 7.) 
> 
> Until that time, I must regrettably cancel my associate membership. 
> 
> /s/
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Robert Call (Bob)]

On Sun, 2019-09-15 at 13:35 -0400, MARY-ANNE WOLF wrote:
> https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing
> 
> 
> https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
> 
> 
> I have been a financial supporter of FSF since... 2011 at least.  I
> first used emacs in... the 1980's I think it was.
> 
> 
> Way to drive away any female supporter of FSF and Libre software
> generally, Richard! I really did think you were smarter than that.
> 
> 
> Look!  A person underage (and the age is defined differently in
> different states) CANNOT give consent to sex.  That is why there is
> such a thing as statutory rape.  Thus, whether the young lady was
> paid (and prostitution is also illegal in most places, and
> transporting someone for purpose of prostitution also) and whether
> she was willing in any other sense, if she was too young, she CANNOT
> have given consent to sex, so the sex MUST have been rape as legally
> defined.
> 
> 
> If Stallman is too stupid to understand that, the FSF needs to throw
> him out with force and distance itself from him as fast as they can,
> before FSF loses the support of most of its female supporters and a
> large fraction of its more woke male supporters.
> 
> 
> Is Stallman nuts?
> 
> 

My view is : no, Stallman is not nuts. 

The problem is that no one is willing to stop and have a coherent
(adult) conversation on any given topic; it usually ends with how the
mob feels. While I don't agree with what Stallman said, I am going to
stand up for the issues around this whole debacle. 

From my perspective, this started because Stallman was trying to defend
Marvin Minsky because he can no longer defend himself. The Vice post
left out most of the mailing list thread and both hit pieces have a
spin or narrative to push without having any meaningful content.

Even if the misquote was true, it should be up for debate and one's own
feelings should be left at the door when doing so. This constant cycle
of outrage over the dumbest stuff is not going to move society forward.
The problem is that many people asking for Stallman's scalp can't seem
to entertain or view the world from a different point of view from
their own. I worry this regressive behavior will lead to the end of
what free society we have left. Debate about this issue should be done
with facts and not feelings or lies!


--
Robert Call (Bob)
bob@bobcall.me
https://bobcall.me



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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Federico klez Culloca]

Il 15 settembre 2019 21:40:03 CEST, MARY-ANNE WOLF <mgwmgw@comcast.net> ha scritto:
>Let me make sure that I understand the distinction that is being
>claimed here.  A young lady who is in fact young enough to be below the
>age of giving sexual consent "presents herself as being willing" to
>Epstein, an adult man aged over 21.  This happens with multiple
>underage girls on more than one occasion.
>
>So if Epstein has sex with each underage girl after she "presents
>herself as being willing", are you arguing that statutory rape has not
>occured?  If so, on what grounds?
>
>If it were one girl, we could debate whether Epstein believed that the
>young lady was older than was the case.  If we are talking about
>multiple underage girls, using an airplane named "The Lolita Express"
>that becomes much less plausible. I think we can assume he knew how
>young they were.
>
>So if a girl too young to give sexual consent tries to do so, and an
>adult male repeatedly acts as if he believes that she is old enough to
>give consent, does her action get him off the hook?  I do not think so.
>And if this happens with girl after girl after girl after girl? 
>Really?
>
>If you believe that statutory rape did occur, then what does presenting
>herself as willing have to do with it?  Why bring that up?  Legally
>speaking, she was raped, no matter what she said first.
>
>So how is Stallman not trying to excuse statutory rape by what he
>posted?
>
>Mary-Anne
>
>
>> On September 15, 2019 at 2:46 PM Michael Downey <michael@downey.net>
>wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I have not read the commentary articles, nor do I intend to. I have,
>on the other hand, read the comments by the FSF President and Board
>member on the mailing list in question. They are entirely inappropriate
>comments for someone in his public position to be making.
>> 
>> I spend my day job trying to convince large governments and NGO's of
>the value of free software. Once again they see the FSF leader behaving
>inappropriately and I have to make excuses for him and the organization
>that continues to provide him safe harbor, and explain that they don't
>represent the values of the free software movement. 
>> 
>> I'm exhausted of doing that. The board has had many opportunities to
>remove him from his role yet each time back down. 
>> 
>> As a single individual associate member, I can't do much. But I can
>(and have) revoked my 15+ year membership and am removing all
>references to the FSF in materials from my day job. We just can't be
>associated with that kind of public behavior any more.
>> 
>> The letter I sent to the FSF follows. I'll be unsubscribing from this
>mailing list too, unfortunately, but encourage others to reconsider
>their support until the board acts in a way true to its public charter.
>For the sake of software freedom, I hope my absence is short-lived.
>> 
>> - Michael
>> 
>> FSF associate member #2352 (since 2004-05-20) here. I also accepted
>the Free Software Award for Projects of Social Benefit several years
>ago.
>> 
>> It’s unfortunate to hear yet another incident about the FSF
>President’s unacceptable behavior in the news again.
>> 
>> Despite all the good things this organization does, this continued
>behavior while holding the role makes it untenable for me to publicly
>support the FSF. And that’s a bad thing for software freedom.
>> 
>> Software freedom is an important human right, but if one has to
>publicly trample others’ human rights in order to get there, one
>undermines one’s own cause.
>> 
>> With his continued behavior over the years, Stallman has done damage
>to our movement that will take a very long time to repair. It’s time
>for him to step down and let the next generation lead this critical
>movement into the future.
>> 
>> Should he be unwilling to do so, I note that based upon my review of
>the FSF bylaws, the Board has the power to remove the person in office
>of President with or without cause upon vote of the board. (Article VI,
>Section 7.) 
>> 
>> Until that time, I must regrettably cancel my associate membership. 
>> 
>> /s/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
>_______________________________________________
>libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Stallman id talking about Minsky, not about Epstein.

And I think the point he's making is that "statuatory rape" is just a legal term (as you're saying) and I'd wager that if we base morality in law in absolute terms, we're going nowhere as a society. In certain part in the US sodomy is illegal. Does it make it wrong?

I'm not saying statutory rape is right. I'm saying that one should be free to discuss whether it's right or wrong without stigma.

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 1:38 PM Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:

> Remarkably, in order to make their allegations against Stallman, both
> Selam G. and Edward Ongweso Jr. must speak untruthfully about what
> Stallman wrote.
>

Contrary to Stallman's comment that "the word 'assaulting' presumes that he
applied force or violence", force or violence is not necessary to
constitute rape or "assault". Stallman is not a lawyer. The fact that a
young woman might have presented herself as "willing" does not absolve
the *alleged
*offender of rape if he knew - or in the case of someone of Minsky's
stature where it would be inferred that he "had a duty to know" - that she
was underage.

Hackers are known to be socially inept. Their humour can often be crude,
off-colour and - like the majority of men in the world - totally sexist
(I'm convinced that many of the men I know have their balls in their
brains:-)  ).

The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by ethical
sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime soon. So let's
just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter, not to attempt to defend
his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not worth defending) and
to get a female FSF colleague to censor all his comments pertaining to
women before these comments go public.


Adrienne
She/her
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[TechLibre]

My 17 year old can't go to the US Virgin Islands with out my consent and neither did any of these young ladies without parental/state actor's help.

The consent issue and very poor to criminal parenting are intertwined. 

In a society where Billy Ray helps Hanna Montana become Miley, I guess we have to unravel that on an FSF thread by blaming Stallman for raising exactly that issue.

I have teenagers with 2 passports. I live in a country with 1 million brand new Venezuelan refugees.

Trust me, the consent and law 'popular opinions' are the problem, zero kids/girls/women will be pulled off the stroll in Lima Peru by this mailing list.

The same applies in Cambridge, Mass.

The tragedy is, there's enough money and brain power on this list to change hundreds of individual lives beyond FreeSoftware, but no keyboards would be involved and you'd most certainly end up around people who make you uncomfortable.

I'm going to hold my record of fixing zero of Stallman's bugs, and Epstein's look all done.

There's this one bug though...where a young woman might think getting on a plane with a rich guy for the weekend is a good idea and her best option to make money.

Damn I hate that bug.
-- 
Freesoftware is Agorism for people who are good at computer.

On September 15, 2019 2:40:03 PM GMT-05:00, MARY-ANNE WOLF <mgwmgw@comcast.net> wrote:
>Let me make sure that I understand the distinction that is being
>claimed here.  A young lady who is in fact young enough to be below the
>age of giving sexual consent "presents herself as being willing" to
>Epstein, an adult man aged over 21.  This happens with multiple
>underage girls on more than one occasion.
>
>So if Epstein has sex with each underage girl after she "presents
>herself as being willing", are you arguing that statutory rape has not
>occured?  If so, on what grounds?
>
>If it were one girl, we could debate whether Epstein believed that the
>young lady was older than was the case.  If we are talking about
>multiple underage girls, using an airplane named "The Lolita Express"
>that becomes much less plausible. I think we can assume he knew how
>young they were.
>
>So if a girl too young to give sexual consent tries to do so, and an
>adult male repeatedly acts as if he believes that she is old enough to
>give consent, does her action get him off the hook?  I do not think so.
>And if this happens with girl after girl after girl after girl? 
>Really?
>
>If you believe that statutory rape did occur, then what does presenting
>herself as willing have to do with it?  Why bring that up?  Legally
>speaking, she was raped, no matter what she said first.
>
>So how is Stallman not trying to excuse statutory rape by what he
>posted?
>
>Mary-Anne
>
>
>> On September 15, 2019 at 2:46 PM Michael Downey <michael@downey.net>
>wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I have not read the commentary articles, nor do I intend to. I have,
>on the other hand, read the comments by the FSF President and Board
>member on the mailing list in question. They are entirely inappropriate
>comments for someone in his public position to be making.
>> 
>> I spend my day job trying to convince large governments and NGO's of
>the value of free software. Once again they see the FSF leader behaving
>inappropriately and I have to make excuses for him and the organization
>that continues to provide him safe harbor, and explain that they don't
>represent the values of the free software movement. 
>> 
>> I'm exhausted of doing that. The board has had many opportunities to
>remove him from his role yet each time back down. 
>> 
>> As a single individual associate member, I can't do much. But I can
>(and have) revoked my 15+ year membership and am removing all
>references to the FSF in materials from my day job. We just can't be
>associated with that kind of public behavior any more.
>> 
>> The letter I sent to the FSF follows. I'll be unsubscribing from this
>mailing list too, unfortunately, but encourage others to reconsider
>their support until the board acts in a way true to its public charter.
>For the sake of software freedom, I hope my absence is short-lived.
>> 
>> - Michael
>> 
>> FSF associate member #2352 (since 2004-05-20) here. I also accepted
>the Free Software Award for Projects of Social Benefit several years
>ago.
>> 
>> It’s unfortunate to hear yet another incident about the FSF
>President’s unacceptable behavior in the news again.
>> 
>> Despite all the good things this organization does, this continued
>behavior while holding the role makes it untenable for me to publicly
>support the FSF. And that’s a bad thing for software freedom.
>> 
>> Software freedom is an important human right, but if one has to
>publicly trample others’ human rights in order to get there, one
>undermines one’s own cause.
>> 
>> With his continued behavior over the years, Stallman has done damage
>to our movement that will take a very long time to repair. It’s time
>for him to step down and let the next generation lead this critical
>movement into the future.
>> 
>> Should he be unwilling to do so, I note that based upon my review of
>the FSF bylaws, the Board has the power to remove the person in office
>of President with or without cause upon vote of the board. (Article VI,
>Section 7.) 
>> 
>> Until that time, I must regrettably cancel my associate membership. 
>> 
>> /s/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
>_______________________________________________
>libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
_______________________________________________
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Thomas Lord]

Mary-Anne Wolf, 

You linked to an article that includes the full text of the email
threads.  I will quote Richard Stallman from his email to the CSAIL
list: 

"We know that Guiffre was being coerced into sex -- by Epstein.  She was
being harmed.  But the details do affect whether, and to what extent,
Minsky was responsible for that." -- Richard M. Stallman 

By "the details", Stallman means critically important information about
what happened - information that is not found in the depositions or
other public evidence, so far.   

Stallman has not exonerated Minsky.  He is not asserting that Guiffre
consented to sex with Minsky. Indeed, Stallman apparently believes
Guiffre did not consent to sex with Minsky.   However, he has asked for
care and precision when describing what we know about what Minsky did. 

-t 

On 2019-09-15 10:35, MARY-ANNE WOLF wrote:

> https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing
> 
> https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
> 
> I have been a financial supporter of FSF since... 2011 at least.  I first used emacs in... the 1980's I think it was.
> 
> Way to drive away any female supporter of FSF and Libre software generally, Richard! I really did think you were smarter than that.
> 
> Look!  A person underage (and the age is defined differently in different states) CANNOT give consent to sex.  That is why there is such a thing as statutory rape.  Thus, whether the young lady was paid (and prostitution is also illegal in most places, and transporting someone for purpose of prostitution also) and whether she was willing in any other sense, if she was too young, she CANNOT have given consent to sex, so the sex MUST have been rape as legally defined.
> 
> If Stallman is too stupid to understand that, the FSF needs to throw him out with force and distance itself from him as fast as they can, before FSF loses the support of most of its female supporters and a large fraction of its more woke male supporters.
> 
> Is Stallman nuts?
> 
> Mary-Anne
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

Typo:


> ... not to attempt to defend his idols (some of *whom *I, *personally*,
> know are not worth defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor
> all his comments pertaining to women before these comments go public.
>

- Yes, I tend do regard men who are not worth defending as "things" hence
the which/whom schism.   ;-)

😎
 Adrienne
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Betsy Garrett]

I’m going to have to unsubscribe from this list until this discussion has
run its course.

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 4:32 PM TechLibre <nthomas@techlibre.net> wrote:

> My 17 year old can't go to the US Virgin Islands with out my consent and
> neither did any of these young ladies without parental/state actor's help.
>
> The consent issue and very poor to criminal parenting are intertwined.
>
> In a society where Billy Ray helps Hanna Montana become Miley, I guess we
> have to unravel that on an FSF thread by blaming Stallman for raising
> exactly that issue.
>
> I have teenagers with 2 passports. I live in a country with 1 million
> brand new Venezuelan refugees.
>
> Trust me, the consent and law 'popular opinions' are the problem, zero
> kids/girls/women will be pulled off the stroll in Lima Peru by this mailing
> list.
>
> The same applies in Cambridge, Mass.
>
> The tragedy is, there's enough money and brain power on this list to
> change hundreds of individual lives beyond FreeSoftware, but no keyboards
> would be involved and you'd most certainly end up around people who make
> you uncomfortable.
>
> I'm going to hold my record of fixing zero of Stallman's bugs, and
> Epstein's look all done.
>
> There's this one bug though...where a young woman might think getting on a
> plane with a rich guy for the weekend is a good idea and her best option to
> make money.
>
> Damn I hate that bug.
> --
> Freesoftware is Agorism for people who are good at computer.
>
> On September 15, 2019 2:40:03 PM GMT-05:00, MARY-ANNE WOLF <
> mgwmgw@comcast.net> wrote:
> >Let me make sure that I understand the distinction that is being
> >claimed here.  A young lady who is in fact young enough to be below the
> >age of giving sexual consent "presents herself as being willing" to
> >Epstein, an adult man aged over 21.  This happens with multiple
> >underage girls on more than one occasion.
> >
> >So if Epstein has sex with each underage girl after she "presents
> >herself as being willing", are you arguing that statutory rape has not
> >occured?  If so, on what grounds?
> >
> >If it were one girl, we could debate whether Epstein believed that the
> >young lady was older than was the case.  If we are talking about
> >multiple underage girls, using an airplane named "The Lolita Express"
> >that becomes much less plausible. I think we can assume he knew how
> >young they were.
> >
> >So if a girl too young to give sexual consent tries to do so, and an
> >adult male repeatedly acts as if he believes that she is old enough to
> >give consent, does her action get him off the hook?  I do not think so.
> >And if this happens with girl after girl after girl after girl?
> >Really?
> >
> >If you believe that statutory rape did occur, then what does presenting
> >herself as willing have to do with it?  Why bring that up?  Legally
> >speaking, she was raped, no matter what she said first.
> >
> >So how is Stallman not trying to excuse statutory rape by what he
> >posted?
> >
> >Mary-Anne
> >
> >
> >> On September 15, 2019 at 2:46 PM Michael Downey <michael@downey.net>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I have not read the commentary articles, nor do I intend to. I have,
> >on the other hand, read the comments by the FSF President and Board
> >member on the mailing list in question. They are entirely inappropriate
> >comments for someone in his public position to be making.
> >>
> >> I spend my day job trying to convince large governments and NGO's of
> >the value of free software. Once again they see the FSF leader behaving
> >inappropriately and I have to make excuses for him and the organization
> >that continues to provide him safe harbor, and explain that they don't
> >represent the values of the free software movement.
> >>
> >> I'm exhausted of doing that. The board has had many opportunities to
> >remove him from his role yet each time back down.
> >>
> >> As a single individual associate member, I can't do much. But I can
> >(and have) revoked my 15+ year membership and am removing all
> >references to the FSF in materials from my day job. We just can't be
> >associated with that kind of public behavior any more.
> >>
> >> The letter I sent to the FSF follows. I'll be unsubscribing from this
> >mailing list too, unfortunately, but encourage others to reconsider
> >their support until the board acts in a way true to its public charter.
> >For the sake of software freedom, I hope my absence is short-lived.
> >>
> >> - Michael
> >>
> >> FSF associate member #2352 (since 2004-05-20) here. I also accepted
> >the Free Software Award for Projects of Social Benefit several years
> >ago.
> >>
> >> It’s unfortunate to hear yet another incident about the FSF
> >President’s unacceptable behavior in the news again.
> >>
> >> Despite all the good things this organization does, this continued
> >behavior while holding the role makes it untenable for me to publicly
> >support the FSF. And that’s a bad thing for software freedom.
> >>
> >> Software freedom is an important human right, but if one has to
> >publicly trample others’ human rights in order to get there, one
> >undermines one’s own cause.
> >>
> >> With his continued behavior over the years, Stallman has done damage
> >to our movement that will take a very long time to repair. It’s time
> >for him to step down and let the next generation lead this critical
> >movement into the future.
> >>
> >> Should he be unwilling to do so, I note that based upon my review of
> >the FSF bylaws, the Board has the power to remove the person in office
> >of President with or without cause upon vote of the board. (Article VI,
> >Section 7.)
> >>
> >> Until that time, I must regrettably cancel my associate membership.
> >>
> >> /s/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 

Sent from my mobile phone
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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I wish stupid threads like this one didn't spam my inbox so much.

Stallman's stances have been documented on his blog for years. Get over
it. 

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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Just put a filter in your mail client to move emails in this subject
line to /dev/null :P

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 16:37:23 -0400 Betsy Garrett
<betsy.luebbe.garrett@gmail.com> wrote:

> I’m going to have to unsubscribe from this list until this discussion
> has run its course.
> 
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 4:32 PM TechLibre <nthomas@techlibre.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > My 17 year old can't go to the US Virgin Islands with out my
> > consent and neither did any of these young ladies without
> > parental/state actor's help.
> >
> > The consent issue and very poor to criminal parenting are
> > intertwined.
> >
> > In a society where Billy Ray helps Hanna Montana become Miley, I
> > guess we have to unravel that on an FSF thread by blaming Stallman
> > for raising exactly that issue.
> >
> > I have teenagers with 2 passports. I live in a country with 1
> > million brand new Venezuelan refugees.
> >
> > Trust me, the consent and law 'popular opinions' are the problem,
> > zero kids/girls/women will be pulled off the stroll in Lima Peru by
> > this mailing list.
> >
> > The same applies in Cambridge, Mass.
> >
> > The tragedy is, there's enough money and brain power on this list to
> > change hundreds of individual lives beyond FreeSoftware, but no
> > keyboards would be involved and you'd most certainly end up around
> > people who make you uncomfortable.
> >
> > I'm going to hold my record of fixing zero of Stallman's bugs, and
> > Epstein's look all done.
> >
> > There's this one bug though...where a young woman might think
> > getting on a plane with a rich guy for the weekend is a good idea
> > and her best option to make money.
> >
> > Damn I hate that bug.
> > --
> > Freesoftware is Agorism for people who are good at computer.
> >
> > On September 15, 2019 2:40:03 PM GMT-05:00, MARY-ANNE WOLF <
> > mgwmgw@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >Let me make sure that I understand the distinction that is being
> > >claimed here.  A young lady who is in fact young enough to be
> > >below the age of giving sexual consent "presents herself as being
> > >willing" to Epstein, an adult man aged over 21.  This happens with
> > >multiple underage girls on more than one occasion.
> > >
> > >So if Epstein has sex with each underage girl after she "presents
> > >herself as being willing", are you arguing that statutory rape has
> > >not occured?  If so, on what grounds?
> > >
> > >If it were one girl, we could debate whether Epstein believed that
> > >the young lady was older than was the case.  If we are talking
> > >about multiple underage girls, using an airplane named "The Lolita
> > >Express" that becomes much less plausible. I think we can assume
> > >he knew how young they were.
> > >
> > >So if a girl too young to give sexual consent tries to do so, and
> > >an adult male repeatedly acts as if he believes that she is old
> > >enough to give consent, does her action get him off the hook?  I
> > >do not think so. And if this happens with girl after girl after
> > >girl after girl? Really?
> > >
> > >If you believe that statutory rape did occur, then what does
> > >presenting herself as willing have to do with it?  Why bring that
> > >up?  Legally speaking, she was raped, no matter what she said
> > >first.
> > >
> > >So how is Stallman not trying to excuse statutory rape by what he
> > >posted?
> > >
> > >Mary-Anne
> > >
> > >
> > >> On September 15, 2019 at 2:46 PM Michael Downey
> > >> <michael@downey.net>
> > >wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I have not read the commentary articles, nor do I intend to. I
> > >> have,
> > >on the other hand, read the comments by the FSF President and Board
> > >member on the mailing list in question. They are entirely
> > >inappropriate comments for someone in his public position to be
> > >making.
> > >>
> > >> I spend my day job trying to convince large governments and
> > >> NGO's of
> > >the value of free software. Once again they see the FSF leader
> > >behaving inappropriately and I have to make excuses for him and
> > >the organization that continues to provide him safe harbor, and
> > >explain that they don't represent the values of the free software
> > >movement.
> > >>
> > >> I'm exhausted of doing that. The board has had many
> > >> opportunities to
> > >remove him from his role yet each time back down.
> > >>
> > >> As a single individual associate member, I can't do much. But I
> > >> can
> > >(and have) revoked my 15+ year membership and am removing all
> > >references to the FSF in materials from my day job. We just can't
> > >be associated with that kind of public behavior any more.
> > >>
> > >> The letter I sent to the FSF follows. I'll be unsubscribing from
> > >> this
> > >mailing list too, unfortunately, but encourage others to reconsider
> > >their support until the board acts in a way true to its public
> > >charter. For the sake of software freedom, I hope my absence is
> > >short-lived.
> > >>
> > >> - Michael
> > >>
> > >> FSF associate member #2352 (since 2004-05-20) here. I also
> > >> accepted
> > >the Free Software Award for Projects of Social Benefit several
> > >years ago.
> > >>
> > >> It’s unfortunate to hear yet another incident about the FSF
> > >President’s unacceptable behavior in the news again.
> > >>
> > >> Despite all the good things this organization does, this
> > >> continued
> > >behavior while holding the role makes it untenable for me to
> > >publicly support the FSF. And that’s a bad thing for software
> > >freedom.
> > >>
> > >> Software freedom is an important human right, but if one has to
> > >publicly trample others’ human rights in order to get there, one
> > >undermines one’s own cause.
> > >>
> > >> With his continued behavior over the years, Stallman has done
> > >> damage
> > >to our movement that will take a very long time to repair. It’s
> > >time for him to step down and let the next generation lead this
> > >critical movement into the future.
> > >>
> > >> Should he be unwilling to do so, I note that based upon my
> > >> review of
> > >the FSF bylaws, the Board has the power to remove the person in
> > >office of President with or without cause upon vote of the board.
> > >(Article VI, Section 7.)
> > >>
> > >> Until that time, I must regrettably cancel my associate
> > >> membership.
> > >>
> > >> /s/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my
> > >> brevity. _______________________________________________
> > >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > >> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > >> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > >libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > >https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> -- 
> 
> Sent from my mobile phone
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Thomas Lord]

I wanted to express my strong agreement with this, from Adrienne G.
Thompson, part very strongly:

> "The fact that a young woman might have presented herself as "willing" does not absolve the alleged offender of rape if he knew - or in the case of someone of Minsky's stature where it would be inferred that he "had a duty to know" - that she was underage."

I would also say that beyond any question of law, men trying to raise
funds and socially network, who find themselves at a lavish, high-money
event, surrounded by women significantly below their age and acting in
these highly sexualized ways ought to be enough to stop those men from
participating further.  I believe the culture at MIT (and Stanford), and
the individual men, are rightly due lots of criticism and perhaps in
some cases prosecution.  

So, thanks Adrienne for opening that line of discussion. 

Nevertheless, the record of what Minsky did or didn't do, and what he
knew or should have known and when is far from clear, and the accusation
of "sexual assault" is indeed not fair.  Nobody is served by being fast
and loose with the facts, here.  There are plenty of solid facts to
protest on! 

-t 

On 2019-09-15 13:20, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 1:38 PM Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote: 
> 
>> Remarkably, in order to make their allegations against Stallman, both
>> Selam G. and Edward Ongweso Jr. must speak untruthfully about what
>> Stallman wrote.
> 
> Contrary to Stallman's comment that "the word 'assaulting' presumes that he applied force or violence", force or violence is not necessary to constitute rape or "assault". Stallman is not a lawyer. The fact that a young woman might have presented herself as "willing" does not absolve the alleged offender of rape if he knew - or in the case of someone of Minsky's stature where it would be inferred that he "had a duty to know" - that she was underage. 
> 
> Hackers are known to be socially inept. Their humour can often be crude, off-colour and - like the majority of men in the world - totally sexist (I'm convinced that many of the men I know have their balls in their brains:-)  ). 
> 
> The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by ethical sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime soon. So let's just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter, not to attempt to defend his idols (some of which I, _personally_, know are not worth defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor all his comments pertaining to women before these comments go public. 
> 
> Adrienne 
> She/her 
> -- 
> Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
> 
> GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
> Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
> Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
> Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[TechLibre]

*covers ears starts yelling lalala while world burns
-- 
Freesoftware is Agorism for people who are good at computer.

On September 15, 2019 3:37:23 PM GMT-05:00, Betsy Garrett <betsy.luebbe.garrett@gmail.com> wrote:
>I’m going to have to unsubscribe from this list until this discussion
>has
>run its course.
>
>On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 4:32 PM TechLibre <nthomas@techlibre.net>
>wrote:
>
>> My 17 year old can't go to the US Virgin Islands with out my consent
>and
>> neither did any of these young ladies without parental/state actor's
>help.
>>
>> The consent issue and very poor to criminal parenting are
>intertwined.
>>
>> In a society where Billy Ray helps Hanna Montana become Miley, I
>guess we
>> have to unravel that on an FSF thread by blaming Stallman for raising
>> exactly that issue.
>>
>> I have teenagers with 2 passports. I live in a country with 1 million
>> brand new Venezuelan refugees.
>>
>> Trust me, the consent and law 'popular opinions' are the problem,
>zero
>> kids/girls/women will be pulled off the stroll in Lima Peru by this
>mailing
>> list.
>>
>> The same applies in Cambridge, Mass.
>>
>> The tragedy is, there's enough money and brain power on this list to
>> change hundreds of individual lives beyond FreeSoftware, but no
>keyboards
>> would be involved and you'd most certainly end up around people who
>make
>> you uncomfortable.
>>
>> I'm going to hold my record of fixing zero of Stallman's bugs, and
>> Epstein's look all done.
>>
>> There's this one bug though...where a young woman might think getting
>on a
>> plane with a rich guy for the weekend is a good idea and her best
>option to
>> make money.
>>
>> Damn I hate that bug.
>> --
>> Freesoftware is Agorism for people who are good at computer.
>>
>> On September 15, 2019 2:40:03 PM GMT-05:00, MARY-ANNE WOLF <
>> mgwmgw@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >Let me make sure that I understand the distinction that is being
>> >claimed here.  A young lady who is in fact young enough to be below
>the
>> >age of giving sexual consent "presents herself as being willing" to
>> >Epstein, an adult man aged over 21.  This happens with multiple
>> >underage girls on more than one occasion.
>> >
>> >So if Epstein has sex with each underage girl after she "presents
>> >herself as being willing", are you arguing that statutory rape has
>not
>> >occured?  If so, on what grounds?
>> >
>> >If it were one girl, we could debate whether Epstein believed that
>the
>> >young lady was older than was the case.  If we are talking about
>> >multiple underage girls, using an airplane named "The Lolita
>Express"
>> >that becomes much less plausible. I think we can assume he knew how
>> >young they were.
>> >
>> >So if a girl too young to give sexual consent tries to do so, and an
>> >adult male repeatedly acts as if he believes that she is old enough
>to
>> >give consent, does her action get him off the hook?  I do not think
>so.
>> >And if this happens with girl after girl after girl after girl?
>> >Really?
>> >
>> >If you believe that statutory rape did occur, then what does
>presenting
>> >herself as willing have to do with it?  Why bring that up?  Legally
>> >speaking, she was raped, no matter what she said first.
>> >
>> >So how is Stallman not trying to excuse statutory rape by what he
>> >posted?
>> >
>> >Mary-Anne
>> >
>> >
>> >> On September 15, 2019 at 2:46 PM Michael Downey
><michael@downey.net>
>> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I have not read the commentary articles, nor do I intend to. I
>have,
>> >on the other hand, read the comments by the FSF President and Board
>> >member on the mailing list in question. They are entirely
>inappropriate
>> >comments for someone in his public position to be making.
>> >>
>> >> I spend my day job trying to convince large governments and NGO's
>of
>> >the value of free software. Once again they see the FSF leader
>behaving
>> >inappropriately and I have to make excuses for him and the
>organization
>> >that continues to provide him safe harbor, and explain that they
>don't
>> >represent the values of the free software movement.
>> >>
>> >> I'm exhausted of doing that. The board has had many opportunities
>to
>> >remove him from his role yet each time back down.
>> >>
>> >> As a single individual associate member, I can't do much. But I
>can
>> >(and have) revoked my 15+ year membership and am removing all
>> >references to the FSF in materials from my day job. We just can't be
>> >associated with that kind of public behavior any more.
>> >>
>> >> The letter I sent to the FSF follows. I'll be unsubscribing from
>this
>> >mailing list too, unfortunately, but encourage others to reconsider
>> >their support until the board acts in a way true to its public
>charter.
>> >For the sake of software freedom, I hope my absence is short-lived.
>> >>
>> >> - Michael
>> >>
>> >> FSF associate member #2352 (since 2004-05-20) here. I also
>accepted
>> >the Free Software Award for Projects of Social Benefit several years
>> >ago.
>> >>
>> >> It’s unfortunate to hear yet another incident about the FSF
>> >President’s unacceptable behavior in the news again.
>> >>
>> >> Despite all the good things this organization does, this continued
>> >behavior while holding the role makes it untenable for me to
>publicly
>> >support the FSF. And that’s a bad thing for software freedom.
>> >>
>> >> Software freedom is an important human right, but if one has to
>> >publicly trample others’ human rights in order to get there, one
>> >undermines one’s own cause.
>> >>
>> >> With his continued behavior over the years, Stallman has done
>damage
>> >to our movement that will take a very long time to repair. It’s time
>> >for him to step down and let the next generation lead this critical
>> >movement into the future.
>> >>
>> >> Should he be unwilling to do so, I note that based upon my review
>of
>> >the FSF bylaws, the Board has the power to remove the person in
>office
>> >of President with or without cause upon vote of the board. (Article
>VI,
>> >Section 7.)
>> >>
>> >> Until that time, I must regrettably cancel my associate
>membership.
>> >>
>> >> /s/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my
>brevity.
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> >> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> >> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> >libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> >https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
>-- 
>
>Sent from my mobile phone
>_______________________________________________
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Andrew Luke Nesbit]

On 15/09/2019 21:37, Betsy Garrett wrote:
> I’m going to have to unsubscribe from this list until this discussion has
> run its course.

Betsy, I was thinking exactly the same thing but it's unlikely I'll return.

Andrew
-- 
OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0  B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 3:45 PM Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:

> I wanted to express my strong agreement with this, from Adrienne G.
> Thompson, part very strongly:
>
> "The fact that a young woman might have presented herself as "willing"
> does not absolve the alleged offender of rape if he knew - or in the case
> of someone of Minsky's stature where it would be inferred that he "had a
> duty to know" - that she was underage."
>
> I would also say that beyond any question of law, men trying to raise
> funds and socially network, who find themselves at a lavish, high-money
> event, surrounded by women significantly below their age and acting in
> these highly sexualized ways ought to be enough to stop those men from
> participating further.  I believe the culture at MIT (and Stanford), and
> the individual men, are rightly due lots of criticism and perhaps in some
> cases prosecution.
>
> So, thanks Adrienne for opening that line of discussion.
>

And thank you Thomas Lord.

Adrienne
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Mark Phelan]

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 1:36 PM MARY-ANNE WOLF <mgwmgw@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing
>

as the meme almost goes, i'm a simple man, i see vice.com, i don't click?

"..Gavin Miles McInnes ..co-founder of Vice Media and Vice
Magazine..": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_McInnes

>
> https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
>
>
> I have been a financial supporter of FSF since... 2011 at least.  I first used emacs in... the 1980's I think it was.
>
>
> Way to drive away any female supporter of FSF and Libre software generally, Richard! I really did think you were smarter than that.
>
>
> Look!  A person underage (and the age is defined differently in different states) CANNOT give consent to sex.  That is why there is such a thing as statutory rape.  Thus, whether the young lady was paid (and prostitution is also illegal in most places, and transporting someone for purpose of prostitution also) and whether she was willing in any other sense, if she was too young, she CANNOT have given consent to sex, so the sex MUST have been rape as legally defined.
>
>
> If Stallman is too stupid to understand that, the FSF needs to throw him out with force and distance itself from him as fast as they can, before FSF loses the support of most of its female supporters and a large fraction of its more woke male supporters.
>
>
> Is Stallman nuts?
>
>
> Mary-Anne
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss



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No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[J.B. Nicholson]

Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by ethical 
> sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime soon. So let's 
> just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter, not to attempt to
> defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not worth
> defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor all his comments
> pertaining to women before these comments go public.

Or you could choose to not tell him or anyone else to "shut up" or accept a 
censorship regime. And you could also reject virtue signaling, sexism, and 
identity politics (regarding the "get a female FSF colleague"). After all, 
for all you know he could select a woman who doesn't agree with your take 
and you'll have nowhere to go because he met your sexist and identity 
politics-driven request.

You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to say things you 
don't agree with (that's what freedom of speech is for, after all). You 
could choose to continue to use your freedom of speech as you've done while 
also respecting his. Counterspeech seems far more appropriate for this 
situation where Stallman hasn't done anything more wrong than possibly 
hold, share, and change views some others don't like.

His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me think I'm 
getting a poorly-explained half story from others on this topic. 
Considering what he wrote in 
https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)

> I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted
> about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage
> totally mischaracterised my statements.
> 
> Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the
> truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be
> imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other
> inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I
> said.
> 
> I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
> misunderstanding.
https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong)

> Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex
> between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.
> 
> Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to
> understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This
> changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I
> am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.

https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_2019_(Epstein_donations)

> Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly accepted
> donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not to do so.
> 
> He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his own.
> 
> That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his resignation
> obligatory.
> 
> But I fear for the effect on the Media Lab. Under Negroponte, the lab
> was notoriously stingy and proprietary. Ito corrected that. I fear that
> the next director will undo some of Ito's changes.

https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_2019_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide)

> Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his cell. Or
> perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for prisoners to murder
> prisoners accused of sexual crimes.
> 
> Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on
> false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He
> also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those accusations,
> and I think he deserved to be imprisoned.
> 
> Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I
> don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less
> wrong if the victim is over 16.

as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a consistent objection 
to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I see public contrition 
for changing a view he held which he now views as wrong. Had we followed 
your censorious recommendations back then (to either "shut up" or to "get a 
female FSF colleague to censor all his comments pertaining to women before 
these comments go public") we might not have been able to read 
https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
today and we'd lack any principled claim on free speech.

Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of the FSF or the 
GNU Project seem to me to be either making a mistake in that conflation or 
be opportunistic (possibly virtue signaling).

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Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[Steven Sullam]

WTF? I became interested in the libre group as a more human alternative 
to commercial profit driven technology. I am not interesed in reading 
discussions of Richard Stallman's personal life or the lack of ethics in 
his personal behavior here.

On 9/15/19 8:53 PM, J.B. Nicholson wrote:
> Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
>> The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by 
>> ethical sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime 
>> soon. So let's just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter, not 
>> to attempt to
>> defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not worth
>> defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor all his comments
>> pertaining to women before these comments go public.
>
> Or you could choose to not tell him or anyone else to "shut up" or 
> accept a censorship regime. And you could also reject virtue 
> signaling, sexism, and identity politics (regarding the "get a female 
> FSF colleague"). After all, for all you know he could select a woman 
> who doesn't agree with your take and you'll have nowhere to go because 
> he met your sexist and identity politics-driven request.
>
> You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to say things 
> you don't agree with (that's what freedom of speech is for, after 
> all). You could choose to continue to use your freedom of speech as 
> you've done while also respecting his. Counterspeech seems far more 
> appropriate for this situation where Stallman hasn't done anything 
> more wrong than possibly hold, share, and change views some others 
> don't like.
>
> His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me think I'm 
> getting a poorly-explained half story from others on this topic. 
> Considering what he wrote in 
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
>
>> I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted
>> about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage
>> totally mischaracterised my statements.
>>
>> Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the
>> truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be
>> imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other
>> inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I
>> said.
>>
>> I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
>> misunderstanding.
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
>
>
>> Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex
>> between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.
>>
>> Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to
>> understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This
>> changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I
>> am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_2019_(Epstein_donations) 
>
>
>> Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly accepted
>> donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not to do so.
>>
>> He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his own.
>>
>> That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his resignation
>> obligatory.
>>
>> But I fear for the effect on the Media Lab. Under Negroponte, the lab
>> was notoriously stingy and proprietary. Ito corrected that. I fear that
>> the next director will undo some of Ito's changes.
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_2019_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide) 
>
>
>> Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his cell. Or
>> perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for prisoners to murder
>> prisoners accused of sexual crimes.
>>
>> Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on
>> false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He
>> also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those accusations,
>> and I think he deserved to be imprisoned.
>>
>> Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I
>> don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less
>> wrong if the victim is over 16.
>
> as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a consistent 
> objection to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I see 
> public contrition for changing a view he held which he now views as 
> wrong. Had we followed your censorious recommendations back then (to 
> either "shut up" or to "get a female FSF colleague to censor all his 
> comments pertaining to women before these comments go public") we 
> might not have been able to read 
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> today and we'd lack any principled claim on free speech.
>
> Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of the FSF or 
> the GNU Project seem to me to be either making a mistake in that 
> conflation or be opportunistic (possibly virtue signaling).
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[Eric Schultz]

None of this anything to do with free software. It has nothing to do with
the practical response to the PR crisis caused by RMS' continued refusal to
act like a responsible human being.

This entire discussion today proved the worst of the FSF to be completely
true. I'm pretty much done with this organization since it's rotten from
the President, a majority of the board down to seemingly a major portion of
it's supporters. It's proof that a large portion of the FSF supporters are
in the RMS worship movement a lot more than they're in the free software
movement.

FSF, GNU and sadly the GPL are likely doomed unless there is massive change
immediately. Based on just this discussion, it seems there's no chance of
that change. Once the free software movement is fatally wounded, I hope
many of the people here can take comfort that they got a chance to debate
the finer points of what is child sexual assault and to parse in
excruciating detail the reprehensible statements of RMS.

Eric

PS: if you disagree, don't contact me. You and I aren't in the same
movement; you're not in the free software movement, you're in the RMS
worship movement.

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019, 7:53 PM J.B. Nicholson <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:

> Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by ethical
> > sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime soon. So let's
> > just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter, not to attempt to
> > defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not worth
> > defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor all his comments
> > pertaining to women before these comments go public.
>
> Or you could choose to not tell him or anyone else to "shut up" or accept
> a
> censorship regime. And you could also reject virtue signaling, sexism, and
> identity politics (regarding the "get a female FSF colleague"). After all,
> for all you know he could select a woman who doesn't agree with your take
> and you'll have nowhere to go because he met your sexist and identity
> politics-driven request.
>
> You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to say things you
> don't agree with (that's what freedom of speech is for, after all). You
> could choose to continue to use your freedom of speech as you've done
> while
> also respecting his. Counterspeech seems far more appropriate for this
> situation where Stallman hasn't done anything more wrong than possibly
> hold, share, and change views some others don't like.
>
> His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me think I'm
> getting a poorly-explained half story from others on this topic.
> Considering what he wrote in
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
>
> > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted
> > about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage
> > totally mischaracterised my statements.
> >
> > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the
> > truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be
> > imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other
> > inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I
> > said.
> >
> > I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
> > misunderstanding.
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong)
>
> > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex
> > between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.
> >
> > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to
> > understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This
> > changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I
> > am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.
>
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_2019_(Epstein_donations)
>
> > Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly accepted
> > donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not to do so.
> >
> > He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his own.
> >
> > That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his resignation
> > obligatory.
> >
> > But I fear for the effect on the Media Lab. Under Negroponte, the lab
> > was notoriously stingy and proprietary. Ito corrected that. I fear that
> > the next director will undo some of Ito's changes.
>
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_2019_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide)
>
> > Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his cell. Or
> > perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for prisoners to murder
> > prisoners accused of sexual crimes.
> >
> > Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on
> > false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He
> > also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those accusations,
> > and I think he deserved to be imprisoned.
> >
> > Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I
> > don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less
> > wrong if the victim is over 16.
>
> as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a consistent objection
> to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I see public contrition
> for changing a view he held which he now views as wrong. Had we followed
> your censorious recommendations back then (to either "shut up" or to "get
> a
> female FSF colleague to censor all his comments pertaining to women before
> these comments go public") we might not have been able to read
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong)
> today and we'd lack any principled claim on free speech.
>
> Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of the FSF or the
> GNU Project seem to me to be either making a mistake in that conflation or
> be opportunistic (possibly virtue signaling).
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Taking credit for your own choices and free software is neither anti-commercial nor anti-profit

[J.B. Nicholson]

Steven Sullam wrote:
> WTF? I became interested in the libre group as a more human alternative to 
> commercial profit driven technology. I am not interesed in reading 
> discussions of Richard Stallman's personal life or the lack of ethics in 
> his personal behavior here.

Then you should probably have chosen to not read more of this thread when 
you realized you didn't want to read more of it.

However since you're apparently reading this thread, you should know that 
humans engage in commercial profit-driven enterprises all the time, 
including developing free software. In fact, Richard Stallman "encourage[s] 
people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can":

> Many people believe that the spirit of the GNU Project is that you
> should not charge money for distributing copies of software, or that you
> should charge as little as possible—just enough to cover the cost. This
> is a misunderstanding.
> 
> Actually, we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge
> as much as they wish or can. If a license does not permit users to make
> copies and sell them, it is a nonfree license. If this seems surprising
> to you, please read on.

You can read the rest of that essay at 
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8102 bytes --]


I'm unsubscribing from this list. The FSF has been stagnating a lot
over the years anyway... though I still respect them, and RMS.

But I don't like all this spam, and most of what goes on this list
appears to be spam nowadays :S

Before I do unsubscribe, I'd like to impart some wisdom on you all:

While the FSF and GNU project (and RMS, in spite of his many flaws -
hey, we're not perfect. cut the guy some slack OK? he stands by his
convictions to the letter, and you have to respect that) are wonderful,
they are not the whole movement. My advice: respect organisations like
the FSF, but realize they don't operate on their own; the movement is
powered by people like *you*. In fact, the FSF in my own personal
experience is chronically understaffed and most of their work is done
by volunteers... The FSF is what I consider a "thought leader"
- more or less like a political party. Thought leaders are great, but
you don't get there on thought alone.

Keep writing free software and keep spreading the good word of free
software and (more importantly) copyleft. Trivial stuff like this shit
with RMS mean nothing in the grand scheme. Just a cranky old man with
the best of intentions, saying things now and then that are a bit weird
(but I could say the same of anyone).

And keep donating to the FSF. They *do* do excellent work in the
community.

I'll leave it at that for today. I might come to future libreplanet
conferences still.

On Sun, 15
Sep 2019 21:47:26 -0400 Steven Sullam <steve@stevesullam.com> wrote:

> WTF? I became interested in the libre group as a more human
> alternative to commercial profit driven technology. I am not
> interesed in reading discussions of Richard Stallman's personal life
> or the lack of ethics in his personal behavior here.
> 
> On 9/15/19 8:53 PM, J.B. Nicholson wrote:
> > Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> >> The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by 
> >> ethical sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime 
> >> soon. So let's just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter,
> >> not to attempt to
> >> defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not worth
> >> defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor all his
> >> comments pertaining to women before these comments go public.
> >
> > Or you could choose to not tell him or anyone else to "shut up" or 
> > accept a censorship regime. And you could also reject virtue 
> > signaling, sexism, and identity politics (regarding the "get a
> > female FSF colleague"). After all, for all you know he could select
> > a woman who doesn't agree with your take and you'll have nowhere to
> > go because he met your sexist and identity politics-driven request.
> >
> > You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to say
> > things you don't agree with (that's what freedom of speech is for,
> > after all). You could choose to continue to use your freedom of
> > speech as you've done while also respecting his. Counterspeech
> > seems far more appropriate for this situation where Stallman hasn't
> > done anything more wrong than possibly hold, share, and change
> > views some others don't like.
> >
> > His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me think
> > I'm getting a poorly-explained half story from others on this
> > topic. Considering what he wrote in 
> > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
> >
> >> I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I
> >> posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The
> >> coverage totally mischaracterised my statements.
> >>
> >> Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further
> >> from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he
> >> deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended
> >> him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because
> >> of what they believe I said.
> >>
> >> I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
> >> misunderstanding.
> > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> >
> >
> >> Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about
> >> sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.
> >>
> >> Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to
> >> understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This
> >> changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do
> >> that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to
> >> understand why.
> >
> > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_2019_(Epstein_donations) 
> >
> >
> >> Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly accepted
> >> donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not to do so.
> >>
> >> He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his own.
> >>
> >> That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his resignation
> >> obligatory.
> >>
> >> But I fear for the effect on the Media Lab. Under Negroponte, the
> >> lab was notoriously stingy and proprietary. Ito corrected that. I
> >> fear that the next director will undo some of Ito's changes.
> >
> > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_2019_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide) 
> >
> >
> >> Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his cell. Or
> >> perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for prisoners to murder
> >> prisoners accused of sexual crimes.
> >>
> >> Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances
> >> on false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or
> >> prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those people. I
> >> believe those accusations, and I think he deserved to be
> >> imprisoned.
> >>
> >> Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I
> >> don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is
> >> less wrong if the victim is over 16.
> >
> > as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a consistent 
> > objection to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I see 
> > public contrition for changing a view he held which he now views as 
> > wrong. Had we followed your censorious recommendations back then
> > (to either "shut up" or to "get a female FSF colleague to censor
> > all his comments pertaining to women before these comments go
> > public") we might not have been able to read 
> > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> > today and we'd lack any principled claim on free speech.
> >
> > Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of the FSF
> > or the GNU Project seem to me to be either making a mistake in that 
> > conflation or be opportunistic (possibly virtue signaling).
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9444 bytes --]



The TR;DR version of my previous mail is this:

Without the FSF, we'd be up shit creek. So please everyone grow the
fuck up and move on, and keep doing wonderful things. This infighting
helps nobody but our enemies.

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:19:26 +0100 Leah
Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:

> 
> I'm unsubscribing from this list. The FSF has been stagnating a lot
> over the years anyway... though I still respect them, and RMS.
> 
> But I don't like all this spam, and most of what goes on this list
> appears to be spam nowadays :S
> 
> Before I do unsubscribe, I'd like to impart some wisdom on you all:
> 
> While the FSF and GNU project (and RMS, in spite of his many flaws -
> hey, we're not perfect. cut the guy some slack OK? he stands by his
> convictions to the letter, and you have to respect that) are
> wonderful, they are not the whole movement. My advice: respect
> organisations like the FSF, but realize they don't operate on their
> own; the movement is powered by people like *you*. In fact, the FSF
> in my own personal experience is chronically understaffed and most of
> their work is done by volunteers... The FSF is what I consider a
> "thought leader"
> - more or less like a political party. Thought leaders are great, but
> you don't get there on thought alone.
> 
> Keep writing free software and keep spreading the good word of free
> software and (more importantly) copyleft. Trivial stuff like this shit
> with RMS mean nothing in the grand scheme. Just a cranky old man with
> the best of intentions, saying things now and then that are a bit
> weird (but I could say the same of anyone).
> 
> And keep donating to the FSF. They *do* do excellent work in the
> community.
> 
> I'll leave it at that for today. I might come to future libreplanet
> conferences still.
> 
> On Sun, 15
> Sep 2019 21:47:26 -0400 Steven Sullam <steve@stevesullam.com> wrote:
> 
> > WTF? I became interested in the libre group as a more human
> > alternative to commercial profit driven technology. I am not
> > interesed in reading discussions of Richard Stallman's personal life
> > or the lack of ethics in his personal behavior here.
> > 
> > On 9/15/19 8:53 PM, J.B. Nicholson wrote:
> > > Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > >> The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by 
> > >> ethical sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime 
> > >> soon. So let's just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter,
> > >> not to attempt to
> > >> defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not
> > >> worth defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor all
> > >> his comments pertaining to women before these comments go public.
> > >
> > > Or you could choose to not tell him or anyone else to "shut up"
> > > or accept a censorship regime. And you could also reject virtue 
> > > signaling, sexism, and identity politics (regarding the "get a
> > > female FSF colleague"). After all, for all you know he could
> > > select a woman who doesn't agree with your take and you'll have
> > > nowhere to go because he met your sexist and identity
> > > politics-driven request.
> > >
> > > You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to say
> > > things you don't agree with (that's what freedom of speech is for,
> > > after all). You could choose to continue to use your freedom of
> > > speech as you've done while also respecting his. Counterspeech
> > > seems far more appropriate for this situation where Stallman
> > > hasn't done anything more wrong than possibly hold, share, and
> > > change views some others don't like.
> > >
> > > His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me think
> > > I'm getting a poorly-explained half story from others on this
> > > topic. Considering what he wrote in 
> > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
> > >
> > >> I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I
> > >> posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein.
> > >> The coverage totally mischaracterised my statements.
> > >>
> > >> Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further
> > >> from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he
> > >> deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended
> > >> him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because
> > >> of what they believe I said.
> > >>
> > >> I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
> > >> misunderstanding.
> > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> > >
> > >
> > >> Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about
> > >> sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.
> > >>
> > >> Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to
> > >> understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically.
> > >> This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not
> > >> do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to
> > >> understand why.
> > >
> > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_2019_(Epstein_donations) 
> > >
> > >
> > >> Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly
> > >> accepted donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not to do
> > >> so.
> > >>
> > >> He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his own.
> > >>
> > >> That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his resignation
> > >> obligatory.
> > >>
> > >> But I fear for the effect on the Media Lab. Under Negroponte, the
> > >> lab was notoriously stingy and proprietary. Ito corrected that. I
> > >> fear that the next director will undo some of Ito's changes.
> > >
> > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_2019_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide) 
> > >
> > >
> > >> Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his cell. Or
> > >> perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for prisoners to
> > >> murder prisoners accused of sexual crimes.
> > >>
> > >> Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long
> > >> distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or
> > >> prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those people. I
> > >> believe those accusations, and I think he deserved to be
> > >> imprisoned.
> > >>
> > >> Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage
> > >> minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't
> > >> think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16.
> > >
> > > as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a consistent 
> > > objection to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I see 
> > > public contrition for changing a view he held which he now views
> > > as wrong. Had we followed your censorious recommendations back
> > > then (to either "shut up" or to "get a female FSF colleague to
> > > censor all his comments pertaining to women before these comments
> > > go public") we might not have been able to read 
> > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> > > today and we'd lack any principled claim on free speech.
> > >
> > > Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of the
> > > FSF or the GNU Project seem to me to be either making a mistake
> > > in that conflation or be opportunistic (possibly virtue
> > > signaling).
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> -- 
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> 
> Do you know you have rights?
> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> and censored by the government.
> 
> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> United Kingdom


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 11091 bytes --]


Stallman single handedly spearheaded the entire free software movement
back in the 80s, and he's still going strong even today, talking at
conferences all over the world. He's a man of great integrity who does
what he says and means what he says.

Meanwhile, Mr. Gates is funding companies like Monsanto who are
destroying the planet. And making the world generally a very depressing
place to live.

Try to put things into perspective, k?

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:29:00 +0100
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:

> 
> 
> The TR;DR version of my previous mail is this:
> 
> Without the FSF, we'd be up shit creek. So please everyone grow the
> fuck up and move on, and keep doing wonderful things. This infighting
> helps nobody but our enemies.
> 
> On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:19:26 +0100 Leah
> Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I'm unsubscribing from this list. The FSF has been stagnating a lot
> > over the years anyway... though I still respect them, and RMS.
> > 
> > But I don't like all this spam, and most of what goes on this list
> > appears to be spam nowadays :S
> > 
> > Before I do unsubscribe, I'd like to impart some wisdom on you all:
> > 
> > While the FSF and GNU project (and RMS, in spite of his many flaws -
> > hey, we're not perfect. cut the guy some slack OK? he stands by his
> > convictions to the letter, and you have to respect that) are
> > wonderful, they are not the whole movement. My advice: respect
> > organisations like the FSF, but realize they don't operate on their
> > own; the movement is powered by people like *you*. In fact, the FSF
> > in my own personal experience is chronically understaffed and most
> > of their work is done by volunteers... The FSF is what I consider a
> > "thought leader"
> > - more or less like a political party. Thought leaders are great,
> > but you don't get there on thought alone.
> > 
> > Keep writing free software and keep spreading the good word of free
> > software and (more importantly) copyleft. Trivial stuff like this
> > shit with RMS mean nothing in the grand scheme. Just a cranky old
> > man with the best of intentions, saying things now and then that
> > are a bit weird (but I could say the same of anyone).
> > 
> > And keep donating to the FSF. They *do* do excellent work in the
> > community.
> > 
> > I'll leave it at that for today. I might come to future libreplanet
> > conferences still.
> > 
> > On Sun, 15
> > Sep 2019 21:47:26 -0400 Steven Sullam <steve@stevesullam.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > WTF? I became interested in the libre group as a more human
> > > alternative to commercial profit driven technology. I am not
> > > interesed in reading discussions of Richard Stallman's personal
> > > life or the lack of ethics in his personal behavior here.
> > > 
> > > On 9/15/19 8:53 PM, J.B. Nicholson wrote:
> > > > Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > > >> The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven
> > > >> by ethical sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape
> > > >> anytime soon. So let's just tell rms to shut up about the
> > > >> Epstein matter, not to attempt to
> > > >> defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not
> > > >> worth defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor
> > > >> all his comments pertaining to women before these comments go
> > > >> public.
> > > >
> > > > Or you could choose to not tell him or anyone else to "shut up"
> > > > or accept a censorship regime. And you could also reject virtue 
> > > > signaling, sexism, and identity politics (regarding the "get a
> > > > female FSF colleague"). After all, for all you know he could
> > > > select a woman who doesn't agree with your take and you'll have
> > > > nowhere to go because he met your sexist and identity
> > > > politics-driven request.
> > > >
> > > > You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to say
> > > > things you don't agree with (that's what freedom of speech is
> > > > for, after all). You could choose to continue to use your
> > > > freedom of speech as you've done while also respecting his.
> > > > Counterspeech seems far more appropriate for this situation
> > > > where Stallman hasn't done anything more wrong than possibly
> > > > hold, share, and change views some others don't like.
> > > >
> > > > His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me
> > > > think I'm getting a poorly-explained half story from others on
> > > > this topic. Considering what he wrote in 
> > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
> > > >
> > > >> I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages
> > > >> I posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey
> > > >> Epstein. The coverage totally mischaracterised my statements.
> > > >>
> > > >> Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further
> > > >> from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he
> > > >> deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I
> > > >> defended him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a real
> > > >> hurt because of what they believe I said.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
> > > >> misunderstanding.
> > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong
> > > >> about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted
> > > >> it.
> > > >>
> > > >> Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to
> > > >> understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically.
> > > >> This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should
> > > >> not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled
> > > >> me to understand why.
> > > >
> > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_2019_(Epstein_donations) 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly
> > > >> accepted donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not to do
> > > >> so.
> > > >>
> > > >> He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his own.
> > > >>
> > > >> That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his resignation
> > > >> obligatory.
> > > >>
> > > >> But I fear for the effect on the Media Lab. Under Negroponte,
> > > >> the lab was notoriously stingy and proprietary. Ito corrected
> > > >> that. I fear that the next director will undo some of Ito's
> > > >> changes.
> > > >
> > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_2019_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide) 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his cell.
> > > >> Or perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for prisoners to
> > > >> murder prisoners accused of sexual crimes.
> > > >>
> > > >> Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long
> > > >> distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into sex
> > > >> or prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those
> > > >> people. I believe those accusations, and I think he deserved
> > > >> to be imprisoned.
> > > >>
> > > >> Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage
> > > >> minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't
> > > >> think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16.
> > > >
> > > > as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a consistent 
> > > > objection to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I
> > > > see public contrition for changing a view he held which he now
> > > > views as wrong. Had we followed your censorious recommendations
> > > > back then (to either "shut up" or to "get a female FSF
> > > > colleague to censor all his comments pertaining to women before
> > > > these comments go public") we might not have been able to read 
> > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> > > > today and we'd lack any principled claim on free speech.
> > > >
> > > > Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of the
> > > > FSF or the GNU Project seem to me to be either making a mistake
> > > > in that conflation or be opportunistic (possibly virtue
> > > > signaling).
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > 
> > -- 
> > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> > Company Director & Libreboot developer
> > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> > 
> > Do you know you have rights?
> > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> > and censored by the government.
> > 
> > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> > 
> > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> > VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> > United Kingdom
> 
> 
> -- 
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> 
> Do you know you have rights?
> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> and censored by the government.
> 
> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> United Kingdom


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Patrick 'P. J.' McDermott]

I've been an associate member of the FSF since 2012; an attendee of
LibrePlanet every year since 2013; and using, developing, and advocating
for free software longer than that.  I have other organizational
affiliations, however I am writing in my personal capacity and opinions
expressed herein are my own.  Also, my apologies to those on this list
who want this thread to just be over, but there have been many false
statements around this issue that are important to correct.  With all
that said...


The Vice article takes one specific quote out of context and removes key
words from it to change the meaning into a clickbait headline and story.
The article explains that Stallman insists that Epstein's victims were
"entirely willing" to be trafficked, which is a blatant misquote.
What Stallman actually wrote in the e-mail thread [1] is that, because
Virginia Giuffre was coerced by Epstein, Epstein would have surely
forced her to conceal the coercion from people like Marvin Minsky.
Therefore she would have presented herself to Minsky as "entirely
willing" and Minsky would not have needed to force himself onto her.

The article's headline and entire premise that Stallman claimed that
Giuffre was "willing" to be trafficked is completely disproven later in
the thread when Stallman wrote, in no uncertain terms, "We know that
Giuffre was being coerced into sex -- by Epstein.  She was being
harmed."  He also wrote on his Web site a month ago [2] that he believes
the accusations against Epstein of sex trafficking and that rape is
unconditionally wrong.  More recently he also agreed [3] that Joi Ito
had to resign after admitting to covering up Epstein's donations to the
MIT Media Lab (the original subject of the thread in question), and he
clarified and reiterated that he always condemned Epstein [4].

The purpose of Stallman's message is his usual pedantry, to point out
that "assault" is vague.  Since the sex between Minsky and Giuffre was
non-violent and Minsky may have believed Giuffre to have given him
consent, Stallman's argument is that Minsky's actions don't necessarily
rise to "sexual assault", a term which implies violent non-consensual
sex.  (I don't intend to defend Stallman's argument here -- only to
clarify it.)

The center of Stallman's pedantry here reads, "The word 'assaulting'
presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but
the article itself says no such thing.  Only that they had sex."  Anyone
on the csail-related mailing list or otherwise who doesn't regularly
read his Web site or the GNU "Words to Avoid" Web page or who isn't
familiar with his linguistic prescriptivism may very easily
misunderstand this statement as condoning non-consensual but non-violent
sex.  But based on his previous condemnations of rape, I fully believe
that he condemns any form of non-consensual sex, even if non-violent.  I
suggest that he should have been clearer there to avoid such an easy
misunderstanding.

Of course, his defense of Minsky (after presuming he indeed had sex with
a minor) appears to rely on his unpopular but somewhat well known belief
that "voluntarily [sic] pedophilia" doesn't harm children [5].  He seems
to have taken for granted that Minsky should have had no reason to
hesitate over having sex with a minor, as long as she appeared to him to
be willing.  Reportedly though, Stallman's views "changed significantly"
by 2016 [6], and he confirmed on Saturday that "personal conversations
in recent years" have convinced him that sex between an adult and a
child is wrong [7].  This timeline between changing views in "recent
years" and this thread from last Wednesday would in fact suggest that
he didn't necessarily intend to exonerate Minsky at all.  Instead, it
suggests to me that Stallman's only intention was to seek clarification
of exactly what Minsky had done.  Minsky engaged in non-violent and
seemingly consensual (but actually coerced by Epstein) sex with a minor.
While such an act is ethically and legally wrong, Stallman is arguing
that violent non-consensual sex is worse.  He, pedantic as he is, wanted
only to avoid conflating Minsky's actions with more violent assault.
(Again, I'm explaining, not necessarily defending.)

Now, we could have had a reasonable debate around whether Minsky's
actions do rise to the level of "sexual assault" or we should be more
specific in our terminology.  We could argue that all forms of non-
consensual sex are equally wrong, with or without physical violence
or the appearance of consent, and that Stallman is wrong to try to
disambiguate such forms.  This is certainly a debatable topic, however
the media immediately shut down any useful debate by going off in a
completely different direction with sensationalized false claims of
something Stallman definitely did not say.  It's just a frustratingly
and obviously absurd clickbait straw man, and one that wasn't even at
all necessary in order to find controversy in what Stallman said.  There
was already a decent story in there, without having to lie about it.


Some people have also taken this opportunity to bring up some of
Stallman's other social and technical behaviors.  While I share some of
these concerns, this is not the time to conflate so many issues.  Let's
focus for now on the accusation at hand.


So, I'll express some of my own pedantry by urging readers to consider
not the sophistry woven by Vice, but what Stallman actually said.  Base
your decisions not on the false premise that he defended Epstein and
insisted that Epstein's underage victims were "entirely willing" to
be trafficked, but instead on his pedantic disambiguation of the
term "sexual assault".  Read the source material and reach your own
conclusions, ignoring what Vice puts out to maximize their advertising
revenue.

I, for one, will not be ending my FSF associate membership over this
incident.  Despite any other concerns I may have regarding Stallman's
leadership of the GNU Project and representation of the FSF and the
broader software freedom movement, I will not be demanding his departure
as FSF President over the recent csail-related e-mail thread.

On a personal note, nothing in my message should be construed to imply
that I in any way condone any form of non-consensual sexual encounters,
by any name.  While I thankfully have no first-hand experience and can't
imagine the trauma endured by the victims, I do have a certain emotional
connection to child sexual assault and would neither take the issue
lightly nor defend someone I believe to be a sexual assault apologist.
I also cringe at every knee-jerk reaction against accusers (for example
the term "SJW"), so I ask that we all remain civil about what is
(understandably) quite an emotional subject for everyone.  And thanks to
anyone who managed to read this far.

[1]: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929/09132019142056-0001.pdf
[2]: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_2019_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide)
[3]: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_2019_(Epstein_donations)
[4]: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
[5]: https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20%28Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party%29
[6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=727727586&oldid=727703442
[7]: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong)

-- 
Patrick "P. J." McDermott:  http://www.pehjota.net/
Lead Developer, ProteanOS:  http://www.proteanos.com/
Founder and CEO, Libiquity: http://www.libiquity.com/

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Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[Caleb Herbert]

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On 09/16/2019 05:33 AM, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> Meanwhile, Mr. Gates is funding companies like Monsanto who are
> destroying the planet. And making the world generally a very depressing
> place to live.

I heard Gates directly funded sex trafficking for Epstein.

-- 
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Caleb Herbert]

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On 09/16/2019 06:54 AM, Patrick 'P. J.' McDermott wrote:
> Reportedly though, Stallman's views "changed significantly"
> by 2016 [6], and he confirmed on Saturday that "personal conversations
> in recent years" have convinced him that sex between an adult and a
> child is wrong [7].

Yes, but Stallman makes a distinction between children and young adults.
 He says it's wrong to think of young adults as children, because it
creates a society where people don't grow up and don't take on
responsibilities and start contributing to society.

-- 
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

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Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 7:54 PM J.B. Nicholson <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:

> Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by ethical
> > sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime soon. So let's
> > just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter, not to attempt to
> > defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not worth
> > defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor all his comments
> > pertaining to women before these comments go public.
>
> ... After all, for all you know he could select a woman who doesn't agree
> with your take
> and you'll have nowhere to go because he met your sexist and identity
> politics-driven request.
>

Just the act of getting a woman to vet his communications would
automatically insulate rms from some of the criticism. RMS is smart enough
to know that the person he would choose should have a track record of
acceptable advocacy on women's issues. Your reference below to rms' apology:

  > Through personal conversations in recent years ... I
> am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.

suggests that rms already knows he would benefit from discussions about
these issues with female colleagues.


> You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to say things you
> don't agree with
>

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. Leaders have
certain responsibilities in respect of their constituencies.

Trump's references to Mexicans as rapists and white supremacists as "very
fine people", for example, only served to demean the office of the
Presidency of the United States.


> His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me think I'm
> getting a poorly-explained half story from others on this topic.
> Considering what he wrote in
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
>
> > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the
> > truth. I've called him a "serial rapist"



> > I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
> > misunderstanding.
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong)
>


> > Through personal conversations in recent years ... I
> > am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.
>
>
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_2019_(Epstein_donations)
>
>

> > Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly accepted
> > donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not to do so.
> >
> > He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his own.
> >
> > That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his resignation
> > obligatory.
> >
>


> as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a consistent objection
> to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I see public contrition
> for changing a view he held which he now views as wrong.
>

I'm glad you reposted the latter comments from rms. Others on this list can
benefit from his correction of the record.



> Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of the FSF or the
> GNU Project seem to me to be either making a mistake in that conflation or
> be opportunistic (possibly virtue signaling).
>

RMS is not only president of the FSF, he is leader of the Free Software
Movement. He has responsibilities. We should help him to recognise those
responsibilities and protect him from attack.

Adrienne
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
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Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Patrick 'P. J.' McDermott]

On 2019-09-16 at 09:54, Caleb Herbert wrote:
> On 09/16/2019 06:54 AM, Patrick 'P. J.' McDermott wrote:
> > Reportedly though, Stallman's views "changed significantly"
> > by 2016 [6], and he confirmed on Saturday that "personal conversations
> > in recent years" have convinced him that sex between an adult and a
> > child is wrong [7].  
> 
> Yes, but Stallman makes a distinction between children and young adults.
>  He says it's wrong to think of young adults as children, because it
> creates a society where people don't grow up and don't take on
> responsibilities and start contributing to society.

I wasn't aware of that, though the csail-related thread suggested
something possibly along those lines.  Thanks for the input.  Again,
this is something that could be debated, if not for the article pre-
empting such thoughtful discussion by making up something else entirely.


And in general, in case it wasn't clear:

  * I'm not explicitly taking a side here; I just think the article is a
    gross mischaracterization of the facts for advertising revenue.  I
    want to encourage people to read and understand the source material
    before jumping to conclusions.  Some will still blame Stallman in
    this case regardless, and in my opinion that's fine as long as they
    do so with an understanding of what he really said.
  * I take absolutely no pleasure in dissecting this whole situation,
    evaluating the lexicon of sexual assault, contemplating consent and
    violence, or diving into such an emotionally charged and divisive
    topic.  This is a depressing waste of time and energy that I (and
    all of us) really don't need.

I'm saddened to see the community rush to corners and tear itself apart
over this.  I really wish that either Stallman would not have even
touched such a personal and controversial subject or that his words
would not have been so thoroughly misunderstood by the media and others.

-- 
Patrick "P. J." McDermott:  http://www.pehjota.net/
Lead Developer, ProteanOS:  http://www.proteanos.com/
Founder and CEO, Libiquity: http://www.libiquity.com/

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Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

['smee via libreplanet-discuss]

I'll miss seeing your input on this list. 

This thread smells agenda-driven to me and I've avoided reading most of
it for that reason. 

I think that censorship is the only goal for these people. The details
of how they get there don't really matter to them, nor the people they
attack. 



On Mon, 2019-09-16 at 11:33 +0100, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss
wrote:
> Stallman single handedly spearheaded the entire free software
> movement
> back in the 80s, and he's still going strong even today, talking at
> conferences all over the world. He's a man of great integrity who
> does
> what he says and means what he says.
> 
> Meanwhile, Mr. Gates is funding companies like Monsanto who are
> destroying the planet. And making the world generally a very
> depressing
> place to live.
> 
> Try to put things into perspective, k?
> 
> On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:29:00 +0100
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > The TR;DR version of my previous mail is this:
> > 
> > Without the FSF, we'd be up shit creek. So please everyone grow the
> > fuck up and move on, and keep doing wonderful things. This
> > infighting
> > helps nobody but our enemies.
> > 
> > On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:19:26 +0100 Leah
> > Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I'm unsubscribing from this list. The FSF has been stagnating a
> > > lot
> > > over the years anyway... though I still respect them, and RMS.
> > > 
> > > But I don't like all this spam, and most of what goes on this
> > > list
> > > appears to be spam nowadays :S
> > > 
> > > Before I do unsubscribe, I'd like to impart some wisdom on you
> > > all:
> > > 
> > > While the FSF and GNU project (and RMS, in spite of his many
> > > flaws -
> > > hey, we're not perfect. cut the guy some slack OK? he stands by
> > > his
> > > convictions to the letter, and you have to respect that) are
> > > wonderful, they are not the whole movement. My advice: respect
> > > organisations like the FSF, but realize they don't operate on
> > > their
> > > own; the movement is powered by people like *you*. In fact, the
> > > FSF
> > > in my own personal experience is chronically understaffed and
> > > most
> > > of their work is done by volunteers... The FSF is what I consider
> > > a
> > > "thought leader"
> > > - more or less like a political party. Thought leaders are great,
> > > but you don't get there on thought alone.
> > > 
> > > Keep writing free software and keep spreading the good word of
> > > free
> > > software and (more importantly) copyleft. Trivial stuff like this
> > > shit with RMS mean nothing in the grand scheme. Just a cranky old
> > > man with the best of intentions, saying things now and then that
> > > are a bit weird (but I could say the same of anyone).
> > > 
> > > And keep donating to the FSF. They *do* do excellent work in the
> > > community.
> > > 
> > > I'll leave it at that for today. I might come to future
> > > libreplanet
> > > conferences still.
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 15
> > > Sep 2019 21:47:26 -0400 Steven Sullam <steve@stevesullam.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > WTF? I became interested in the libre group as a more human
> > > > alternative to commercial profit driven technology. I am not
> > > > interesed in reading discussions of Richard Stallman's personal
> > > > life or the lack of ethics in his personal behavior here.
> > > > 
> > > > On 9/15/19 8:53 PM, J.B. Nicholson wrote:
> > > > > Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > > > > > The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is
> > > > > > driven
> > > > > > by ethical sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape
> > > > > > anytime soon. So let's just tell rms to shut up about the
> > > > > > Epstein matter, not to attempt to
> > > > > > defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > worth defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to
> > > > > > censor
> > > > > > all his comments pertaining to women before these comments
> > > > > > go
> > > > > > public.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Or you could choose to not tell him or anyone else to "shut
> > > > > up"
> > > > > or accept a censorship regime. And you could also reject
> > > > > virtue 
> > > > > signaling, sexism, and identity politics (regarding the "get
> > > > > a
> > > > > female FSF colleague"). After all, for all you know he could
> > > > > select a woman who doesn't agree with your take and you'll
> > > > > have
> > > > > nowhere to go because he met your sexist and identity
> > > > > politics-driven request.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to
> > > > > say
> > > > > things you don't agree with (that's what freedom of speech is
> > > > > for, after all). You could choose to continue to use your
> > > > > freedom of speech as you've done while also respecting his.
> > > > > Counterspeech seems far more appropriate for this situation
> > > > > where Stallman hasn't done anything more wrong than possibly
> > > > > hold, share, and change views some others don't like.
> > > > > 
> > > > > His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me
> > > > > think I'm getting a poorly-explained half story from others
> > > > > on
> > > > > this topic. Considering what he wrote in 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_
> > > > > 2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
> > > > > 
> > > > > > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of
> > > > > > messages
> > > > > > I posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey
> > > > > > Epstein. The coverage totally mischaracterised my
> > > > > > statements.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be
> > > > > > further
> > > > > > from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I
> > > > > > defended him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a
> > > > > > real
> > > > > > hurt because of what they believe I said.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
> > > > > > misunderstanding.
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_
> > > > > 2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong
> > > > > > about sex between an adult and a child, if the child
> > > > > > accepted
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've
> > > > > > learned to
> > > > > > understand how sex with a child can harm per
> > > > > > psychologically.
> > > > > > This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that
> > > > > > enabled
> > > > > > me to understand why.
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_
> > > > > 2019_(Epstein_donations) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly
> > > > > > accepted donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not
> > > > > > to do
> > > > > > so.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his
> > > > > > own.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his
> > > > > > resignation
> > > > > > obligatory.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But I fear for the effect on the Media Lab. Under
> > > > > > Negroponte,
> > > > > > the lab was notoriously stingy and proprietary. Ito
> > > > > > corrected
> > > > > > that. I fear that the next director will undo some of Ito's
> > > > > > changes.
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_201
> > > > > 9_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his
> > > > > > cell.
> > > > > > Or perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for
> > > > > > prisoners to
> > > > > > murder prisoners accused of sexual crimes.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long
> > > > > > distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into
> > > > > > sex
> > > > > > or prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those
> > > > > > people. I believe those accusations, and I think he
> > > > > > deserved
> > > > > > to be imprisoned.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage
> > > > > > minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16.
> > > > > 
> > > > > as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a
> > > > > consistent 
> > > > > objection to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I
> > > > > see public contrition for changing a view he held which he
> > > > > now
> > > > > views as wrong. Had we followed your censorious
> > > > > recommendations
> > > > > back then (to either "shut up" or to "get a female FSF
> > > > > colleague to censor all his comments pertaining to women
> > > > > before
> > > > > these comments go public") we might not have been able to
> > > > > read 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_
> > > > > 2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> > > > > today and we'd lack any principled claim on free speech.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of
> > > > > the
> > > > > FSF or the GNU Project seem to me to be either making a
> > > > > mistake
> > > > > in that conflation or be opportunistic (possibly virtue
> > > > > signaling).
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di
> > > > > scuss
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
> > > > uss
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> > > Company Director & Libreboot developer
> > > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> > > 
> > > Do you know you have rights?
> > > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> > > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> > > and censored by the government.
> > > 
> > > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> > > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> > > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> > > 
> > > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> > > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> > > VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> > > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> > > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> > > United Kingdom
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> > Company Director & Libreboot developer
> > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> > 
> > Do you know you have rights?
> > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> > and censored by the government.
> > 
> > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> > 
> > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> > VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> > United Kingdom
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Deb Nicholson]

I don't think a situation where many people associate the free software
movement with misogyny and pedophilia is doing the movement any favors. And
that's where we are. I do feel emotionally about this because it is a huge
waste of my time to try and bring new people to this movement and then
later have to apologize for the ton of unchecked sexism that happens in
many of our spaces and mailing lists.

I'm done with allowing one person's pedantic compulsions and gaping blind
spots around how tech treats women continue to hamper the work of
empowering users. It's time to separate the sexism and -- the erasure of
victims of pedophilia -- from the free software movement. I won't be
encouraging people to participate in free software communities that won't
commit to doing better at that extremely low bar.

Deb


On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 11:38 AM Caleb Herbert <csh@bluehome.net> wrote:

> On 09/16/2019 06:54 AM, Patrick 'P. J.' McDermott wrote:
> > Reportedly though, Stallman's views "changed significantly"
> > by 2016 [6], and he confirmed on Saturday that "personal conversations
> > in recent years" have convinced him that sex between an adult and a
> > child is wrong [7].
>
> Yes, but Stallman makes a distinction between children and young adults.
>  He says it's wrong to think of young adults as children, because it
> creates a society where people don't grow up and don't take on
> responsibilities and start contributing to society.
>
> --
> Caleb Herbert
> KE0VVT
> 816-892-9669
> https://bluehome.net/csh
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[alimiracle]

I have a weird opinion.
I don't exactly follow people.
I'm just following their ideas that I'm convinced of.
So if someone put up two ideas,
  one good idea
and  one bad idea

I'll follow the good idea.
and send the bad to /dev/null
so Take from RMS the ideas you're convinced of and leave the ones you're 
not convinced of.
have fun and be free
ali miracle

على 9/16/2019 ‫10:49 AM، كتب Deb Nicholson:
> I don't think a situation where many people associate the free software
> movement with misogyny and pedophilia is doing the movement any favors. And
> that's where we are. I do feel emotionally about this because it is a huge
> waste of my time to try and bring new people to this movement and then
> later have to apologize for the ton of unchecked sexism that happens in
> many of our spaces and mailing lists.
>
> I'm done with allowing one person's pedantic compulsions and gaping blind
> spots around how tech treats women continue to hamper the work of
> empowering users. It's time to separate the sexism and -- the erasure of
> victims of pedophilia -- from the free software movement. I won't be
> encouraging people to participate in free software communities that won't
> commit to doing better at that extremely low bar.
>
> Deb
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 11:38 AM Caleb Herbert <csh@bluehome.net> wrote:
>
>> On 09/16/2019 06:54 AM, Patrick 'P. J.' McDermott wrote:
>>> Reportedly though, Stallman's views "changed significantly"
>>> by 2016 [6], and he confirmed on Saturday that "personal conversations
>>> in recent years" have convinced him that sex between an adult and a
>>> child is wrong [7].
>> Yes, but Stallman makes a distinction between children and young adults.
>>   He says it's wrong to think of young adults as children, because it
>> creates a society where people don't grow up and don't take on
>> responsibilities and start contributing to society.
>>
>> --
>> Caleb Herbert
>> KE0VVT
>> 816-892-9669
>> https://bluehome.net/csh
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:06 PM Patrick 'P. J.' McDermott <pj@pehjota.net>
wrote:


> I'm saddened to see the community rush to corners and tear itself apart
> over this.  I really wish that either Stallman would not have even
> touched such a personal and controversial subject or that his words
> would not have been so thoroughly misunderstood by the media and others.
>

Part of rms' problem is that he's way too busy and doesn't delegate enough.
I believe that rms simply didn't think before addressing the Minsky-Epstein
issue. Let's give him some support.

Adrienne
Author and Inventor, GNU C-Graph
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 9:12 PM
<libreplanet-discuss-request@libreplanet.org> wrote:

> willing."   Two two statements are, again, very different.  Ongweso
> Jr.'s false paraphrase is about whether the young woman was willing.
> Stallman's is about how, under the circumstances, the young woman might
> have appeared to Minsky to be willing, for example if she were directed
> to conceal the coercion.

i wrote this on slashdot when the issue came up.
https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=14792004&cid=59195030

the important thing to understand here is the context in which this is
all occurring: spycraft *specifically* designed to manipulate and
extort.  these are people *specifically* trained and given resources,
real-time information and finance to *specifically* corrupt people
based on embarrassment, entrapment, blackmail, fear, threats, and
anything and absolutely everything that is *the* absolute worst
aspects of human behaviour.

to be "outraged" or even to be emotionally disturbed by these
incidents *plays directly into their hands*.

just as happened with the removal of applebaum from TOR.  nobody
except for people such as myself, who has had reverse-engineering
training and exposure to spycraft, even NOTICED the suspicious and
manipulative behaviour which resulted in the Board of Directors behind
TOR being compromised and taken over by people with links to U.S.
Intelligence Services!

and i can't even really talk about that publicly *because nobody would
believe me*.

in this case however it is extremely well-known that Epstein had links
to Intelligence Services, so i can (finally) speak up.

please *do not* play into the hands of the extortionists.  it is
*exactly* what they want.

l.


----

Epstein was specifically engaging in the practice of blackmailing high
profile individuals for the purposes of extortion.

He had *specific* training by Intelligence Services on *precisely* how
to threaten women to get them to do what he wanted, and would also
have received similar training on psychological profiling, as well as
ACTIVE SURVEILLANCE dossiers in order to "use" those women as weapons
against the selectively targetted influential individuals.

Unfortunately, if you leave out that context, it is easy to see how
people can become emotionally traumatised by even attempting to
discuss or analyse this situation.

They genuinely believe that this is just some sort of "normal" dirty
situation (some sort of seedy club where it is "fun") whereas in fact
both the "victims" (the women) were targetted *and the men* were
premeditatively targetted as well, for the extortion opportunities
that their transgressions would enable.

*this is just how spycraft works*. it has been this way for centuries.

The unfortunate thing here is that Dr Stallman, like many people on
the autistic spectrum, operate in a much more "objective" fashion with
very delayed or entirely absent emotional reactions and "connection"
to people.

  I assume for example that people can handle the truth, objectively,
because to "lie to yourself" is so anathemic and so wasteful of time
and energy, that I do not want to even spend the time and resources
*modelling* someone else's internal lying!

the reality is that often they simply cannot handle the truth,
particularly when the situation falls so far outside of their social
"norms" that they will do almost anything to make the discrepancy
between reality and their expectations go away.

I will not say more, other than that if you are the kind of person who
prays for people affected by this, please do so, and if you are not,
simply relax, and rather than be upset or outraged or angered towards
anyone - *anyone* at all in this entire mess, to simply wish them
well, and to then move on with your own life.

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Dr. Tom McKellips]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4495 bytes --]

My inbox is blowing up with this debate on RMS' and others morals. Can
we return to using this list for it's intended purposes in free software
and move the debate somewhere else?

Thank you

On 9/16/19 5:12 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 9:12 PM
> <libreplanet-discuss-request@libreplanet.org> wrote:
>
>> willing."   Two two statements are, again, very different.  Ongweso
>> Jr.'s false paraphrase is about whether the young woman was willing.
>> Stallman's is about how, under the circumstances, the young woman might
>> have appeared to Minsky to be willing, for example if she were directed
>> to conceal the coercion.
> i wrote this on slashdot when the issue came up.
> https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=14792004&cid=59195030
>
> the important thing to understand here is the context in which this is
> all occurring: spycraft *specifically* designed to manipulate and
> extort.  these are people *specifically* trained and given resources,
> real-time information and finance to *specifically* corrupt people
> based on embarrassment, entrapment, blackmail, fear, threats, and
> anything and absolutely everything that is *the* absolute worst
> aspects of human behaviour.
>
> to be "outraged" or even to be emotionally disturbed by these
> incidents *plays directly into their hands*.
>
> just as happened with the removal of applebaum from TOR.  nobody
> except for people such as myself, who has had reverse-engineering
> training and exposure to spycraft, even NOTICED the suspicious and
> manipulative behaviour which resulted in the Board of Directors behind
> TOR being compromised and taken over by people with links to U.S.
> Intelligence Services!
>
> and i can't even really talk about that publicly *because nobody would
> believe me*.
>
> in this case however it is extremely well-known that Epstein had links
> to Intelligence Services, so i can (finally) speak up.
>
> please *do not* play into the hands of the extortionists.  it is
> *exactly* what they want.
>
> l.
>
>
> ----
>
> Epstein was specifically engaging in the practice of blackmailing high
> profile individuals for the purposes of extortion.
>
> He had *specific* training by Intelligence Services on *precisely* how
> to threaten women to get them to do what he wanted, and would also
> have received similar training on psychological profiling, as well as
> ACTIVE SURVEILLANCE dossiers in order to "use" those women as weapons
> against the selectively targetted influential individuals.
>
> Unfortunately, if you leave out that context, it is easy to see how
> people can become emotionally traumatised by even attempting to
> discuss or analyse this situation.
>
> They genuinely believe that this is just some sort of "normal" dirty
> situation (some sort of seedy club where it is "fun") whereas in fact
> both the "victims" (the women) were targetted *and the men* were
> premeditatively targetted as well, for the extortion opportunities
> that their transgressions would enable.
>
> *this is just how spycraft works*. it has been this way for centuries.
>
> The unfortunate thing here is that Dr Stallman, like many people on
> the autistic spectrum, operate in a much more "objective" fashion with
> very delayed or entirely absent emotional reactions and "connection"
> to people.
>
>   I assume for example that people can handle the truth, objectively,
> because to "lie to yourself" is so anathemic and so wasteful of time
> and energy, that I do not want to even spend the time and resources
> *modelling* someone else's internal lying!
>
> the reality is that often they simply cannot handle the truth,
> particularly when the situation falls so far outside of their social
> "norms" that they will do almost anything to make the discrepancy
> between reality and their expectations go away.
>
> I will not say more, other than that if you are the kind of person who
> prays for people affected by this, please do so, and if you are not,
> simply relax, and rather than be upset or outraged or angered towards
> anyone - *anyone* at all in this entire mess, to simply wish them
> well, and to then move on with your own life.
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 
Dr. Tom McKellips, RODC


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Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[quiliro]

On Sun, September 15, 2019 9:07 pm, Eric Schultz wrote:
> None of this anything to do with free software. It has nothing to do with
> the practical response to the PR crisis caused by RMS' continued refusal
> to
> act like a responsible human being.
>
> This entire discussion today proved the worst of the FSF to be completely
> true. I'm pretty much done with this organization since it's rotten from
> the President, a majority of the board down to seemingly a major portion
> of
> it's supporters. It's proof that a large portion of the FSF supporters are
> in the RMS worship movement a lot more than they're in the free software
> movement.
>
> FSF, GNU and sadly the GPL are likely doomed unless there is massive
> change
> immediately. Based on just this discussion, it seems there's no chance of
> that change. Once the free software movement is fatally wounded, I hope
> many of the people here can take comfort that they got a chance to debate
> the finer points of what is child sexual assault and to parse in
> excruciating detail the reprehensible statements of RMS.
>
> Eric
>
> PS: if you disagree, don't contact me. You and I aren't in the same
> movement; you're not in the free software movement, you're in the RMS
> worship movement.

If you do not back you statements on facts, you are making personal
attacks on all of us. Please cite proof for every sentence.


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Re: No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

[Ole Aamot]

I've met and hosted Richard M. Stallman in Oslo, Norway in 1998, and made
two short documentary films on free software/open source movements in
Norway since 1998.

According to
https://www.cnet.com/news/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-from-mit-after-defending-jeffrey-epstein/
Richard M. Stallman resigned from M.I.T. after defending Jeffrey Epstein
who died August 10, 2019 on csail-related.

GIRL (http://download.gnome.org/sources/girl/) was never a part of GNU,
allthough Richard M. Stallman requested it several times.

GNOME Internet Radio Locator (
http://www.gnome.org/~ole/gnome-internet-radio-locator/gnome-internet-radio-locator.html)
was never part of GNU.  It was actually rejected by the GNU Project itself.

GNOME Radio (http://www.gnomeradio.org/) is a new free software/open source
software project, but will never have anything to do with Richard M.
Stallman or the GNU Project who seeks to dictate and take credit for the
work done by the many volunteers in the free software/open source community
which is a good, international community of both good women and good men
who cooperate on writing, maintaining and documenting free
software/open-source software.

Richard M. Stallman resigned from M.I.T. in 1983 to work on GCC and Emacs,
he became important in the software community, and resigned from M.I.T. and
Free Software Foundation in 2019.

A good book on Stallman's views is Sam Williams' Free as in Freedom:
Richard Stallman's Crusade for Free Software (ISBN 0-596-00287-4).

Best,
Ole Aamot

On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 4:42 PM Eric Schultz <wwahammy@gmail.com> wrote:

> None of this anything to do with free software. It has nothing to do with
> the practical response to the PR crisis caused by RMS' continued refusal to
> act like a responsible human being.
>
> This entire discussion today proved the worst of the FSF to be completely
> true. I'm pretty much done with this organization since it's rotten from
> the President, a majority of the board down to seemingly a major portion of
> it's supporters. It's proof that a large portion of the FSF supporters are
> in the RMS worship movement a lot more than they're in the free software
> movement.
>
> FSF, GNU and sadly the GPL are likely doomed unless there is massive change
> immediately. Based on just this discussion, it seems there's no chance of
> that change. Once the free software movement is fatally wounded, I hope
> many of the people here can take comfort that they got a chance to debate
> the finer points of what is child sexual assault and to parse in
> excruciating detail the reprehensible statements of RMS.
>
> Eric
>
> PS: if you disagree, don't contact me. You and I aren't in the same
> movement; you're not in the free software movement, you're in the RMS
> worship movement.
>
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2019, 7:53 PM J.B. Nicholson <jbn@forestfield.org> wrote:
>
> > Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > > The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by ethical
> > > sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime soon. So let's
> > > just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter, not to attempt to
> > > defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not worth
> > > defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to censor all his comments
> > > pertaining to women before these comments go public.
> >
> > Or you could choose to not tell him or anyone else to "shut up" or accept
> > a
> > censorship regime. And you could also reject virtue signaling, sexism,
> and
> > identity politics (regarding the "get a female FSF colleague"). After
> all,
> > for all you know he could select a woman who doesn't agree with your take
> > and you'll have nowhere to go because he met your sexist and identity
> > politics-driven request.
> >
> > You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to say things you
> > don't agree with (that's what freedom of speech is for, after all). You
> > could choose to continue to use your freedom of speech as you've done
> > while
> > also respecting his. Counterspeech seems far more appropriate for this
> > situation where Stallman hasn't done anything more wrong than possibly
> > hold, share, and change views some others don't like.
> >
> > His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me think I'm
> > getting a poorly-explained half story from others on this topic.
> > Considering what he wrote in
> >
> >
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
> >
> > > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted
> > > about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage
> > > totally mischaracterised my statements.
> > >
> > > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from
> the
> > > truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be
> > > imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other
> > > inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I
> > > said.
> > >
> > > I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
> > > misunderstanding.
> >
> >
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong)
> >
> > > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex
> > > between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.
> > >
> > > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to
> > > understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This
> > > changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I
> > > am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.
> >
> >
> >
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_2019_(Epstein_donations)
> >
> > > Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly accepted
> > > donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not to do so.
> > >
> > > He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his own.
> > >
> > > That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his resignation
> > > obligatory.
> > >
> > > But I fear for the effect on the Media Lab. Under Negroponte, the lab
> > > was notoriously stingy and proprietary. Ito corrected that. I fear that
> > > the next director will undo some of Ito's changes.
> >
> >
> >
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_2019_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide)
> >
> > > Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his cell. Or
> > > perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for prisoners to murder
> > > prisoners accused of sexual crimes.
> > >
> > > Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on
> > > false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He
> > > also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those
> accusations,
> > > and I think he deserved to be imprisoned.
> > >
> > > Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I
> > > don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less
> > > wrong if the victim is over 16.
> >
> > as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a consistent objection
> > to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I see public contrition
> > for changing a view he held which he now views as wrong. Had we followed
> > your censorious recommendations back then (to either "shut up" or to "get
> > a
> > female FSF colleague to censor all his comments pertaining to women
> before
> > these comments go public") we might not have been able to read
> >
> >
> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong)
> > today and we'd lack any principled claim on free speech.
> >
> > Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of the FSF or
> the
> > GNU Project seem to me to be either making a mistake in that conflation
> or
> > be opportunistic (possibly virtue signaling).
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[quiliro]

On Sun, September 15, 2019 12:35 pm, MARY-ANNE WOLF wrote:

> If Stallman is too stupid to understand that, the FSF needs to throw him
> out with force and distance itself from him as fast as they can, before
> FSF loses the support of most of its female supporters and a large
> fraction of its more woke male supporters.

Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human rights, resign as
president of the board of directors and as president of the FSF.

As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on free software
technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they deserve such
positions.

I hope that now you do not turn to attack me.

Happy hacking!
Quiliro


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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1591 bytes --]

Quiliro, I see you're at riseup.net!


> Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human rights, resign as
> president of the board of directors and as president of the FSF.
>
> As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on free software
> technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they deserve such
> positions.
>

Affirmative action is a noble concept, but sometimes adopting the policy
just doesn't make sense. You always need the very best for technical
positions - which should accordingly be earned on merit. I doubt that I
will be "preferring women" for technical positions at GNU C-Graph!

This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the number of people
who rushed to distance themselves from rms, some of whom he might once have
considered friends. RMS will rise again in the blink of an eye!














*You may write me down in historyWith your bitter, twisted lies,You may
trod me in the very dirtBut still, like dust, I'll rise.You may shoot me
with your words,You may cut me with your eyes,You may kill me with your
hatefulness,But still, like air, I’ll rise.Just like moons and like
suns,With the certainty of tides,Just like hopes springing high,Still I'll
rise.*

From "Still I Rise" by Maya Angelou

Adrienne G. Thompson
Author and Inventor, GNU C-Graph
She/Her
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 1804 bytes --]

   Quiliro, I see you're at [1]riseup.net!

     Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human rights,
     resign as
     president of the board of directors and as president of the FSF.
     As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on free
     software
     technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they deserve
     such
     positions.

   Affirmative action is a noble concept, but sometimes adopting the
   policy just doesn't make sense. You always need the very best for
   technical positions - which should accordingly be earned on merit. I
   doubt that I will be "preferring women" for technical positions at GNU
   C-Graph!
   This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the number of
   people who rushed to distance themselves from rms, some of whom he
   might once have considered friends. RMS will rise again in the blink of
   an eye!
   You may write me down in history
   With your bitter, twisted lies,
   You may trod me in the very dirt
   But still, like dust, I'll rise.
   You may shoot me with your words,
   You may cut me with your eyes,
   You may kill me with your hatefulness,
   But still, like air, I’ll rise.
   Just like moons and like suns,
   With the certainty of tides,
   Just like hopes springing high,
   Still I'll rise.
   From "Still I Rise" by Maya Angelou
   Adrienne G. Thompson
   Author and Inventor, GNU C-Graph
   She/Her
   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. http://riseup.net/
   2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   3. http://codeartnow.com/
   4. http://www.abertheid.info/

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Ole Aamot]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2459 bytes --]

Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.

Spot on with the poem, Adrienne.

Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.  d:-)

GNU C-Graph is cool!

Best,
Ole Aamot

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:23 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <
adriennegayethompson@gmail.com> wrote:

>    Quiliro, I see you're at [1]riseup.net!
>
>      Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human rights,
>      resign as
>      president of the board of directors and as president of the FSF.
>      As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on free
>      software
>      technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they deserve
>      such
>      positions.
>
>    Affirmative action is a noble concept, but sometimes adopting the
>    policy just doesn't make sense. You always need the very best for
>    technical positions - which should accordingly be earned on merit. I
>    doubt that I will be "preferring women" for technical positions at GNU
>    C-Graph!
>    This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the number of
>    people who rushed to distance themselves from rms, some of whom he
>    might once have considered friends. RMS will rise again in the blink of
>    an eye!
>    You may write me down in history
>    With your bitter, twisted lies,
>    You may trod me in the very dirt
>    But still, like dust, I'll rise.
>    You may shoot me with your words,
>    You may cut me with your eyes,
>    You may kill me with your hatefulness,
>    But still, like air, I’ll rise.
>    Just like moons and like suns,
>    With the certainty of tides,
>    Just like hopes springing high,
>    Still I'll rise.
>    From "Still I Rise" by Maya Angelou
>    Adrienne G. Thompson
>    Author and Inventor, GNU C-Graph
>    She/Her
>    --
>    Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
>    GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
>    Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com
>    Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info
>    Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
>
> References
>
>    1. http://riseup.net/
>    2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
>    3. http://codeartnow.com/
>    4. http://www.abertheid.info/
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 3067 bytes --]

   Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.
   Spot on with the poem, Adrienne.
   Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.  d:-)
   GNU C-Graph is cool!
   Best,
   Ole Aamot
   On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:23 PM Adrienne G. Thompson
   <[1]adriennegayethompson@gmail.com> wrote:

        Quiliro, I see you're at [1][2]riseup.net!
          Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human
     rights,
          resign as
          president of the board of directors and as president of the
     FSF.
          As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on free
          software
          technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they
     deserve
          such
          positions.
        Affirmative action is a noble concept, but sometimes adopting the
        policy just doesn't make sense. You always need the very best for
        technical positions - which should accordingly be earned on
     merit. I
        doubt that I will be "preferring women" for technical positions
     at GNU
        C-Graph!
        This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the number
     of
        people who rushed to distance themselves from rms, some of whom
     he
        might once have considered friends. RMS will rise again in the
     blink of
        an eye!
        You may write me down in history
        With your bitter, twisted lies,
        You may trod me in the very dirt
        But still, like dust, I'll rise.
        You may shoot me with your words,
        You may cut me with your eyes,
        You may kill me with your hatefulness,
        But still, like air, I’ll rise.
        Just like moons and like suns,
        With the certainty of tides,
        Just like hopes springing high,
        Still I'll rise.
        From "Still I Rise" by Maya Angelou
        Adrienne G. Thompson
        Author and Inventor, GNU C-Graph
        She/Her
        --
        Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
        GNU C-Graph - [2][3]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
        Code Art Now - [3][4]http://codeartnow.com
        Abertheid Campaign - [4][5]http://www.abertheid.info
        Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
     References
        1. [6]http://riseup.net/
        2. [7]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
        3. [8]http://codeartnow.com/
        4. [9]http://www.abertheid.info/
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [10]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [11]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss

References

   1. mailto:adriennegayethompson@gmail.com
   2. http://riseup.net/
   3. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   4. http://codeartnow.com/
   5. http://www.abertheid.info/
   6. http://riseup.net/
   7. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   8. http://codeartnow.com/
   9. http://www.abertheid.info/
  10. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  11. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[quiliro]

On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
> Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.

By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against Richard by MARY
ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have not
investigated the issue.

> Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.  d:-)

That would be nice. Lets!


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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Danny Spitzberg]

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If you take a glance on this list, on twitter, and in other corners of the
internets, there are a ton of folks sharing their legitimate concerns about
the broader issues in free software, FSF, and rms.

Singling out Mary-Anne (in all-caps?) for sharing articles written by other
people is dismissive at best, harassment at worse.

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 11:03 AM <quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:

> On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
> > Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.
>
> By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against Richard by MARY
> ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have not
> investigated the issue.
>
> > Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.  d:-)
>
> That would be nice. Lets!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 1224 bytes --]

   If you take a glance on this list, on twitter, and in other corners of
   the internets, there are a ton of folks sharing their legitimate
   concerns about the broader issues in free software, FSF, and rms.
   Singling out Mary-Anne (in all-caps?) for sharing articles written by
   other people is dismissive at best, harassment at worse.

   On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 11:03 AM <[1]quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:

     On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
     > Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.
     By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against Richard by
     MARY
     ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have not
     investigated the issue.
     > Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.
     d:-)
     That would be nice. Lets!
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s

References

   1. mailto:quiliro@riseup.net
   2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[lily via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2710 bytes --]

Earlier in this thread, I sent the message below (last paragraph). I want to state that I have not been following the current issue of Stallman's statements closely, nor have I been following the Epstein case closely.

I am just a young woman who got involved in the Free Software movement, because I want to help people attain freedom. Over the past decade I have admired the work of Stallman and the FSF community. So much good has come out of these efforts. I personally, have been able to reach a freedom that I could only dream about as a little girl, because of free software.

I do not wish to see us fight over things that would hurt the movement, and I let my personal feelings get the best of me. I am the type of person that believes all social issues are connected and really just one issue. So the fighting, will only hurt us all.

Regardless of Stallman's resignation, I still see him at the heart of the movement, but I also believe that the rest of us bear the responsibility of carrying forth the message of freedom in technology for protecting the freedoms of people. Furthermore, it is our responsibility to see into the future and build a greater foundation of principles and software to address more social issues.

I hope the community can agree with me on the point that we need greater compassion and positivity continuing forward. Below is the message I originally sent, for transparency of my actions.

Sincerely,

Lily

If it is true that Stallman called these victims as willing. I entirely agree with Marry-Anne. The Free Software movement already lacks female support and these comments will only push more women away. I as a woman who has also suffered harrassment as a child and as an adult, do not want a leader who says things that hurt women. Stallman, you cannot do this. We as members must be strong and have someone else represent us period. FSF should take a stand and provide support for women and actively invite women to a space where we know we are supported, believed in and respected.

-------- Original Message --------
On Sep 17, 2019, 11:03 AM, wrote:

>> On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
>>> Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.
>>
>> By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against Richard by MARY
>> ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have not
>> investigated the issue.
>>
>>> Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone. d:-)
>>
>> That would be nice. Lets!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 3006 bytes --]

   Earlier in this thread, I sent the message below (last paragraph). I
   want to state that I have not been following the current issue of
   Stallman's statements closely, nor have I been following the Epstein
   case closely.
   I am just a young woman who got involved in the Free Software movement,
   because I want to help people attain freedom. Over the past decade I
   have admired the work of Stallman and the FSF community. So much good
   has come out of these efforts. I personally, have been able to reach a
   freedom that I could only dream about as a little girl, because of free
   software.
   I do not wish to see us fight over things that would hurt the movement,
   and I let my personal feelings get the best of me. I am the type of
   person that believes all social issues are connected and really just
   one issue. So the fighting, will only hurt us all.
   Regardless of Stallman's resignation, I still see him at the heart of
   the movement, but I also believe that the rest of us bear the
   responsibility of carrying forth the message of freedom in technology
   for protecting the freedoms of people. Furthermore, it is our
   responsibility to see into the future and build a greater foundation of
   principles and software to address more social issues.
   I hope the community can agree with me on the point that we need
   greater compassion and positivity continuing forward. Below is the
   message I originally sent, for transparency of my actions.
   Sincerely,
   Lily
   If it is true that Stallman called these victims as willing. I entirely
   agree with Marry-Anne. The Free Software movement already lacks female
   support and these comments will only push more women away. I as a woman
   who has also suffered harrassment as a child and as an adult, do not
   want a leader who says things that hurt women. Stallman, you cannot do
   this. We as members must be strong and have someone else represent us
   period. FSF should take a stand and provide support for women and
   actively invite women to a space where we know we are supported,
   believed in and respected.
   -------- Original Message --------
   On Sep 17, 2019, 11:03 AM, < quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:

     On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
     > Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.

     By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against Richard by
     MARY
     ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have not
     investigated the issue.

     > Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.
     d:-)

     That would be nice. Lets!

     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [2]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s

References

   1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   2. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Thomas Lord]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3380 bytes --]

 > If it is true that Stallman called these victims as willing [....] 

He did not.  In fact he said the opposite.   The media campaign is built
on a bald face, easily disproved lie. 

-t 

On 2019-09-17 11:47, lily via libreplanet-discuss wrote:

> Earlier in this thread, I sent the message below (last paragraph). I
> want to state that I have not been following the current issue of
> Stallman's statements closely, nor have I been following the Epstein
> case closely.
> I am just a young woman who got involved in the Free Software movement,
> because I want to help people attain freedom. Over the past decade I
> have admired the work of Stallman and the FSF community. So much good
> has come out of these efforts. I personally, have been able to reach a
> freedom that I could only dream about as a little girl, because of free
> software.
> I do not wish to see us fight over things that would hurt the movement,
> and I let my personal feelings get the best of me. I am the type of
> person that believes all social issues are connected and really just
> one issue. So the fighting, will only hurt us all.
> Regardless of Stallman's resignation, I still see him at the heart of
> the movement, but I also believe that the rest of us bear the
> responsibility of carrying forth the message of freedom in technology
> for protecting the freedoms of people. Furthermore, it is our
> responsibility to see into the future and build a greater foundation of
> principles and software to address more social issues.
> I hope the community can agree with me on the point that we need
> greater compassion and positivity continuing forward. Below is the
> message I originally sent, for transparency of my actions.
> Sincerely,
> Lily
> If it is true that Stallman called these victims as willing. I entirely
> agree with Marry-Anne. The Free Software movement already lacks female
> support and these comments will only push more women away. I as a woman
> who has also suffered harrassment as a child and as an adult, do not
> want a leader who says things that hurt women. Stallman, you cannot do
> this. We as members must be strong and have someone else represent us
> period. FSF should take a stand and provide support for women and
> actively invite women to a space where we know we are supported,
> believed in and respected.
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Sep 17, 2019, 11:03 AM, < quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
>> Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.
> 
> By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against Richard by
> MARY
> ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have not
> investigated the issue.
> 
>> Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.
> d:-)
> 
> That would be nice. Lets!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> [1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> [2]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
> s
> 
> References
> 
> 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> 2. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 4100 bytes --]

    > If it is true that Stallman called these victims as willing [....]

   He did not.  In fact he said the opposite.   The media campaign is
   built on a bald face, easily disproved lie.

   -t



   On 2019-09-17 11:47, lily via libreplanet-discuss wrote:

      Earlier in this thread, I sent the message below (last paragraph). I
      want to state that I have not been following the current issue of
      Stallman's statements closely, nor have I been following the Epstein
      case closely.
      I am just a young woman who got involved in the Free Software
   movement,
      because I want to help people attain freedom. Over the past decade I
      have admired the work of Stallman and the FSF community. So much
   good
      has come out of these efforts. I personally, have been able to reach
   a
      freedom that I could only dream about as a little girl, because of
   free
      software.
      I do not wish to see us fight over things that would hurt the
   movement,
      and I let my personal feelings get the best of me. I am the type of
      person that believes all social issues are connected and really just
      one issue. So the fighting, will only hurt us all.
      Regardless of Stallman's resignation, I still see him at the heart
   of
      the movement, but I also believe that the rest of us bear the
      responsibility of carrying forth the message of freedom in
   technology
      for protecting the freedoms of people. Furthermore, it is our
      responsibility to see into the future and build a greater foundation
   of
      principles and software to address more social issues.
      I hope the community can agree with me on the point that we need
      greater compassion and positivity continuing forward. Below is the
      message I originally sent, for transparency of my actions.
      Sincerely,
      Lily
      If it is true that Stallman called these victims as willing. I
   entirely
      agree with Marry-Anne. The Free Software movement already lacks
   female
      support and these comments will only push more women away. I as a
   woman
      who has also suffered harrassment as a child and as an adult, do not
      want a leader who says things that hurt women. Stallman, you cannot
   do
      this. We as members must be strong and have someone else represent
   us
      period. FSF should take a stand and provide support for women and
      actively invite women to a space where we know we are supported,
      believed in and respected.
      -------- Original Message --------
      On Sep 17, 2019, 11:03 AM, < [1]quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:
        On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
        > Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.
        By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against Richard
   by
        MARY
        ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have
   not
        investigated the issue.
        > Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.
        d:-)
        That would be nice. Lets!
        _______________________________________________
        libreplanet-discuss mailing list
        [1][2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
        [2][3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
   iscus
        s
   References
      1. mailto:[4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
      2.
   [5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

   _______________________________________________
   libreplanet-discuss mailing list
   [6]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   [7]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

References

   1. mailto:quiliro@riseup.net
   2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
   4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
   6. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   7. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

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On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 12:04 PM Ole Aamot <ole.aamot@gmail.com> wrote:

> Spot on with the poem, Adrienne.
>
> Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.  d:-)
>
> GNU C-Graph is cool!
>

Thank you Ole!!

Adrienne
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 637 bytes --]

   On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 12:04 PM Ole Aamot <[1]ole.aamot@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   Spot on with the poem, Adrienne.
   Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.  d:-)
   GNU C-Graph is cool!


   Thank you Ole!!
   Adrienne
   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. mailto:ole.aamot@gmail.com
   2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   3. http://codeartnow.com/
   4. http://www.abertheid.info/

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Aaron Wolf]

I hesitate to weigh in here, but I have a perspective to share that I'm
not seeing anyone else bring up.

There are really quite distinct issues:

A) political concerns about patriarchy / sexism etc

B) social problems with call-out culture

C) practical decisions for the movement

These have **no** correlation. Someone can be on any place along the
spectrum for A while being anywhere in their acceptance or criticism of
B. C is a tactical matter that has no specific reliance on the others
aside from acknowledging the facts of them.

I happen to be on the more feminist / progressive / left-wing side for
A, but I'm a charitable reader of RMS and still believe him to *share*
my views on these things overall.

I happen to be extremely concerned about B. I have mixed feelings about
C, and I can see it possibly being a practical positive for RMS to
resign (he's been problematic for a long time, but it's the same
personality issues that also lead him to be a visionary), so again
definitely mixed feelings.

On B specifically, I think everyone needs to learn more about
**Restorative Justice** and **Transformative Justice**
(here's a link:
http://www.zehr-institute.org/resources/restorative-or-transformative-justice/
). We do *not* need to do this public mob justice thing which leaves any
movement extremely vulnerable to manipulation and to misunderstandings
destroying solidarity. I'm incidentally giving a related talk at SeaGL
in November in Seattle.

Thanks to everyone who has worked to maintain respectful discourse here,
trying to really listen to one another.

In harmony,
Aaron Wolf
Snowdrift.coop

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

['smee via libreplanet-discuss]

Here it comes, more accusations with the intent of censoring (or
causing self censorship). 

Let people speak their minds. 

How else do you reach consensus? Do you just force out people who
disagree? That appears to be your aim. 

You guys are stinking up the place, making a technical forum about
censoring speech. Take your politics elsewhere and let the email mods
do the job in their domain. If you don't like it, convince people to go
to your email list, or your software foundation....or I guess continue
causing drama here and annoying people who read this list for a real
purpose. 

This drama matches too closely what's happened (blatantly) in other
projects. People with these opinions don't usually care too much about
what free software stands for, so what brings you here aside from the
drama?



On Tue, 2019-09-17 at 11:29 -0700, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> If you take a glance on this list, on twitter, and in other corners
> of the
> internets, there are a ton of folks sharing their legitimate concerns
> about
> the broader issues in free software, FSF, and rms.
> 
> Singling out Mary-Anne (in all-caps?) for sharing articles written by
> other
> people is dismissive at best, harassment at worse.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 11:03 AM <quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
> > > Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.
> > 
> > By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against Richard
> > by MARY
> > ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have not
> > investigated the issue.
> > 
> > > Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for
> > > everyone.  d:-)
> > 
> > That would be nice. Lets!
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
>    If you take a glance on this list, on twitter, and in other
> corners of
>    the internets, there are a ton of folks sharing their legitimate
>    concerns about the broader issues in free software, FSF, and rms.
>    Singling out Mary-Anne (in all-caps?) for sharing articles written
> by
>    other people is dismissive at best, harassment at worse.
> 
>    On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 11:03 AM <[1]quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>      On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
>      > Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.
>      By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against
> Richard by
>      MARY
>      ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have
> not
>      investigated the issue.
>      > Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for
> everyone.
>      d:-)
>      That would be nice. Lets!
>      _______________________________________________
>      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      [2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      [3]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di
> scus
>      s
> 
> References
> 
>    1. mailto:quiliro@riseup.net
>    2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    3. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
> uss
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Cinder Roxley]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 345 bytes --]

Sad to see such a charismatic leader shot down. I’m sure free software will continue in a forward trajectory and looking forward to finding out who will be picked as the new FSF president. RMS will always remain the founder.

My only question, since RMS has stepped down, can the obnoxious abortion joke be removed from abort(2) manpage now?

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/plain, Size: 362 bytes --]

   Sad to see such a charismatic leader shot down. I’m sure free software
   will continue in a forward trajectory and looking forward to finding
   out who will be picked as the new FSF president. RMS will always remain
   the founder.

   My only question, since RMS has stepped down, can the obnoxious
   abortion joke be removed from abort(2) manpage now?

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[quiliro]

On Tue, September 17, 2019 9:22 am, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
>    Quiliro, I see you're at [1]riseup.net!
>
>      Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human rights,
>      resign as
>      president of the board of directors and as president of the FSF.
>      As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on free
>      software
>      technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they deserve
>      such
>      positions.
>
>    Affirmative action is a noble concept, but sometimes adopting the
>    policy just doesn't make sense. You always need the very best for
>    technical positions - which should accordingly be earned on merit. I
>    doubt that I will be "preferring women" for technical positions at GNU
>    C-Graph!

I have always made preferences.:
- activists over nonactivists
- humane people over nonhumane people
- women over men
and other aspects I consider good practices. Every decision a person makes
is politics. I try to be aware of that fact.

I can teach anyone interested enough to be a great technician. But now I
have eliminated my third category of benefited by my scholarship.

>    This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the number of
>    people who rushed to distance themselves from rms, some of whom he
>    might once have considered friends. RMS will rise again in the blink of
>    an eye!

I think what Richard did was strategically the best. I respect him for
putting the free software movement in the first place and for being so
humble with that action.

>    You may write me down in history
>    With your bitter, twisted lies,
>    You may trod me in the very dirt
>    But still, like dust, I'll rise.
>    You may shoot me with your words,
>    You may cut me with your eyes,
>    You may kill me with your hatefulness,
>    But still, like air, I’ll rise.
>    Just like moons and like suns,
>    With the certainty of tides,
>    Just like hopes springing high,
>    Still I'll rise.
>    From "Still I Rise" by Maya Angelou

Nice!



_______________________________________________
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[quiliro]

On Tue, September 17, 2019 1:29 pm, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> If you take a glance on this list, on twitter, and in other corners of the
> internets, there are a ton of folks sharing their legitimate concerns
> about
> the broader issues in free software, FSF, and rms.

I do not use Twitter and I have not reviewed any other sources. I am just
talking about this list.

> Singling out Mary-Anne (in all-caps?)

She put it that way on her email to this list. Was just quoting. I even
forgot the dash.

> for sharing articles written by other
> people is dismissive at best, harassment at worse.

Not for sharing an article. I quoted what she said and commented about my
future actions in respect to that attack. It is not an attack on anyone.
It is my decision on how I will act on the future regarding my support for
women.


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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Caleb Herbert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 536 bytes --]

On 09/17/2019 02:23 PM, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> ). We do *not* need to do this public mob justice thing which leaves any
> movement extremely vulnerable to manipulation and to misunderstandings
> destroying solidarity. I'm incidentally giving a related talk at SeaGL
> in November in Seattle.

A lot of important causes have been sabotaged because of this.  Bad
actors used this vulnerability to infiltrate and collapse the legitimate
concerns of the movements they attacked.

-- 
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

[-- Attachment #2: csh.vcf --]
[-- Type: text/x-vcard, Size: 275 bytes --]

begin:vcard
fn:Caleb Herbert
n:Herbert;Caleb
adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America
email;internet:csh@bluehome.net
tel;home:816-869-3111
tel;cell:816-892-9669
note:KE0VVT
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:https://bluehome.net/csh/
version:2.1
end:vcard


[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[A. Mani]

(1) It is obvious that RMS did not have a proper understanding of the
'Child sex-trafficking industry', and its extent.

The defense for Minsky was very ill-informed. RMS is yet to say
anything on (1). That said the resignations do not make enough sense
.... unless it is the case that Epstein is the tip of the iceberg.


Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3842 bytes --]


PLEASE can people stop responding to this fucking thread. I couldn't
possibly give any less of a flying fuck about this smear campaign
against RMS if you *paid* me... and yes, it is a smear campaign. Just
some whores from microsoft or the US government or whatever the
shit, wanting to cause trouble. I wish I never responded to it in the
first place. I already unsubscribed from this list but for some reason
I'm still getting replies.

I've CC'd FSF sysadmins because it seems my unsubscribe to the list
didn't go through.

Please can you program the list *not* to send mails to me of any kind.

And please, anyone who replies please remove my email address
(info@minifree.org) from your To/CC line. Thanks

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:27:39 -0500 quiliro@riseup.net
wrote:

> On Tue, September 17, 2019 9:22 am, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> >    Quiliro, I see you're at [1]riseup.net!
> >
> >      Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human
> > rights, resign as
> >      president of the board of directors and as president of the
> > FSF. As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on free
> >      software
> >      technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they
> > deserve such
> >      positions.
> >
> >    Affirmative action is a noble concept, but sometimes adopting the
> >    policy just doesn't make sense. You always need the very best for
> >    technical positions - which should accordingly be earned on
> > merit. I doubt that I will be "preferring women" for technical
> > positions at GNU C-Graph!
> 
> I have always made preferences.:
> - activists over nonactivists
> - humane people over nonhumane people
> - women over men
> and other aspects I consider good practices. Every decision a person
> makes is politics. I try to be aware of that fact.
> 
> I can teach anyone interested enough to be a great technician. But
> now I have eliminated my third category of benefited by my
> scholarship.
> 
> >    This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the number
> > of people who rushed to distance themselves from rms, some of whom
> > he might once have considered friends. RMS will rise again in the
> > blink of an eye!
> 
> I think what Richard did was strategically the best. I respect him for
> putting the free software movement in the first place and for being so
> humble with that action.
> 
> >    You may write me down in history
> >    With your bitter, twisted lies,
> >    You may trod me in the very dirt
> >    But still, like dust, I'll rise.
> >    You may shoot me with your words,
> >    You may cut me with your eyes,
> >    You may kill me with your hatefulness,
> >    But still, like air, I’ll rise.
> >    Just like moons and like suns,
> >    With the certainty of tides,
> >    Just like hopes springing high,
> >    Still I'll rise.
> >    From "Still I Rise" by Maya Angelou
> 
> Nice!
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5486 bytes --]



I want to stop receiving mails not only from this thread, but *this
fucking mail list*. I've had enough of deleting mails from this
thread.

Some of us have real jobs and do actual fucking work all day, like
answering emails or writing software and doing pull requests / code
review on other mailing lists....

yeah just fucking stop

STOP

seriously

I will track down the address of each and every person who responds
any further on this thread, and whack each and every one of you in the
head with a smelly wet fish until you stop being silly responding to
this silly, silly thread

I mean it. Anyone who responds to this thread from now on, they better
like fish.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 01:00:16 +0100 Leah Rowe
<info@minifree.org> wrote:

> 
> PLEASE can people stop responding to this fucking thread. I couldn't
> possibly give any less of a flying fuck about this smear campaign
> against RMS if you *paid* me... and yes, it is a smear campaign. Just
> some whores from microsoft or the US government or whatever the
> shit, wanting to cause trouble. I wish I never responded to it in the
> first place. I already unsubscribed from this list but for some reason
> I'm still getting replies.
> 
> I've CC'd FSF sysadmins because it seems my unsubscribe to the list
> didn't go through.
> 
> Please can you program the list *not* to send mails to me of any kind.
> 
> And please, anyone who replies please remove my email address
> (info@minifree.org) from your To/CC line. Thanks
> 
> On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:27:39 -0500 quiliro@riseup.net
> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, September 17, 2019 9:22 am, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > >    Quiliro, I see you're at [1]riseup.net!
> > >
> > >      Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human
> > > rights, resign as
> > >      president of the board of directors and as president of the
> > > FSF. As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on free
> > >      software
> > >      technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they
> > > deserve such
> > >      positions.
> > >
> > >    Affirmative action is a noble concept, but sometimes adopting
> > > the policy just doesn't make sense. You always need the very best
> > > for technical positions - which should accordingly be earned on
> > > merit. I doubt that I will be "preferring women" for technical
> > > positions at GNU C-Graph!
> > 
> > I have always made preferences.:
> > - activists over nonactivists
> > - humane people over nonhumane people
> > - women over men
> > and other aspects I consider good practices. Every decision a person
> > makes is politics. I try to be aware of that fact.
> > 
> > I can teach anyone interested enough to be a great technician. But
> > now I have eliminated my third category of benefited by my
> > scholarship.
> > 
> > >    This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the number
> > > of people who rushed to distance themselves from rms, some of whom
> > > he might once have considered friends. RMS will rise again in the
> > > blink of an eye!
> > 
> > I think what Richard did was strategically the best. I respect him
> > for putting the free software movement in the first place and for
> > being so humble with that action.
> > 
> > >    You may write me down in history
> > >    With your bitter, twisted lies,
> > >    You may trod me in the very dirt
> > >    But still, like dust, I'll rise.
> > >    You may shoot me with your words,
> > >    You may cut me with your eyes,
> > >    You may kill me with your hatefulness,
> > >    But still, like air, I’ll rise.
> > >    Just like moons and like suns,
> > >    With the certainty of tides,
> > >    Just like hopes springing high,
> > >    Still I'll rise.
> > >    From "Still I Rise" by Maya Angelou
> > 
> > Nice!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> -- 
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> 
> Do you know you have rights?
> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> and censored by the government.
> 
> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> United Kingdom


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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I won't replace the fish either. It'll get smellier and more rotten
every time. 

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 01:03:12 +0100 Leah Rowe
<info@minifree.org> wrote:

> 
> 
> I want to stop receiving mails not only from this thread, but *this
> fucking mail list*. I've had enough of deleting mails from this
> thread.
> 
> Some of us have real jobs and do actual fucking work all day, like
> answering emails or writing software and doing pull requests / code
> review on other mailing lists....
> 
> yeah just fucking stop
> 
> STOP
> 
> seriously
> 
> I will track down the address of each and every person who responds
> any further on this thread, and whack each and every one of you in the
> head with a smelly wet fish until you stop being silly responding to
> this silly, silly thread
> 
> I mean it. Anyone who responds to this thread from now on, they better
> like fish.
> 
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 01:00:16 +0100 Leah Rowe
> <info@minifree.org> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > PLEASE can people stop responding to this fucking thread. I couldn't
> > possibly give any less of a flying fuck about this smear campaign
> > against RMS if you *paid* me... and yes, it is a smear campaign.
> > Just some whores from microsoft or the US government or whatever the
> > shit, wanting to cause trouble. I wish I never responded to it in
> > the first place. I already unsubscribed from this list but for some
> > reason I'm still getting replies.
> > 
> > I've CC'd FSF sysadmins because it seems my unsubscribe to the list
> > didn't go through.
> > 
> > Please can you program the list *not* to send mails to me of any
> > kind.
> > 
> > And please, anyone who replies please remove my email address
> > (info@minifree.org) from your To/CC line. Thanks
> > 
> > On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:27:39 -0500 quiliro@riseup.net
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, September 17, 2019 9:22 am, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > > >    Quiliro, I see you're at [1]riseup.net!
> > > >
> > > >      Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human
> > > > rights, resign as
> > > >      president of the board of directors and as president of the
> > > > FSF. As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on
> > > > free software
> > > >      technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they
> > > > deserve such
> > > >      positions.
> > > >
> > > >    Affirmative action is a noble concept, but sometimes adopting
> > > > the policy just doesn't make sense. You always need the very
> > > > best for technical positions - which should accordingly be
> > > > earned on merit. I doubt that I will be "preferring women" for
> > > > technical positions at GNU C-Graph!
> > > 
> > > I have always made preferences.:
> > > - activists over nonactivists
> > > - humane people over nonhumane people
> > > - women over men
> > > and other aspects I consider good practices. Every decision a
> > > person makes is politics. I try to be aware of that fact.
> > > 
> > > I can teach anyone interested enough to be a great technician. But
> > > now I have eliminated my third category of benefited by my
> > > scholarship.
> > > 
> > > >    This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the
> > > > number of people who rushed to distance themselves from rms,
> > > > some of whom he might once have considered friends. RMS will
> > > > rise again in the blink of an eye!
> > > 
> > > I think what Richard did was strategically the best. I respect him
> > > for putting the free software movement in the first place and for
> > > being so humble with that action.
> > > 
> > > >    You may write me down in history
> > > >    With your bitter, twisted lies,
> > > >    You may trod me in the very dirt
> > > >    But still, like dust, I'll rise.
> > > >    You may shoot me with your words,
> > > >    You may cut me with your eyes,
> > > >    You may kill me with your hatefulness,
> > > >    But still, like air, I’ll rise.
> > > >    Just like moons and like suns,
> > > >    With the certainty of tides,
> > > >    Just like hopes springing high,
> > > >    Still I'll rise.
> > > >    From "Still I Rise" by Maya Angelou
> > > 
> > > Nice!
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > 
> > -- 
> > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> > Company Director & Libreboot developer
> > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> > 
> > Do you know you have rights?
> > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> > and censored by the government.
> > 
> > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> > 
> > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> > VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> > United Kingdom
> 
> 
> -- 
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> 
> Do you know you have rights?
> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> and censored by the government.
> 
> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> United Kingdom


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Caleb Herbert]

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On 09/17/2019 03:27 PM, quiliro@riseup.net wrote:
>>    This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the number of
>>    people who rushed to distance themselves from rms, some of whom he
>>    might once have considered friends. RMS will rise again in the blink of
>>    an eye!
> 
> I think what Richard did was strategically the best. I respect him for
> putting the free software movement in the first place and for being so
> humble with that action.

Yes.  The hallmark of Richard's life will always be one of great moral
integrity.  He's a good man.

-- 
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

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adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America
email;internet:csh@bluehome.net
tel;home:816-869-3111
tel;cell:816-892-9669
note:KE0VVT
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:https://bluehome.net/csh/
version:2.1
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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meritocracy is silly in terms of advancing equality, because it
implies an equal playing field - nothing is further from the truth

women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.

we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the movement.
since you know, they actually form at least half the planet and have
the same intelligence/potential.

I say this as an LGBT person.

If you have the choice between a more qualified male candidate and less
qualified female candidate, hire the female candidate - and
train/educate her. it's important.

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:22:25 -0500
"Adrienne G. Thompson" <adriennegayethompson@gmail.com> wrote:

> Quiliro, I see you're at riseup.net!
> 
> 
> > Your message has made Richard Stallman, an icon to human rights,
> > resign as president of the board of directors and as president of
> > the FSF.
> >
> > As for me, I will stop preferring women for positions on free
> > software technical areas. I think that they will earn them if they
> > deserve such positions.
> >
> 
> Affirmative action is a noble concept, but sometimes adopting the
> policy just doesn't make sense. You always need the very best for
> technical positions - which should accordingly be earned on merit. I
> doubt that I will be "preferring women" for technical positions at
> GNU C-Graph!
> 
> This whole business smells like a set-up. I've noted the number of
> people who rushed to distance themselves from rms, some of whom he
> might once have considered friends. RMS will rise again in the blink
> of an eye!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You may write me down in historyWith your bitter, twisted lies,You
> may trod me in the very dirtBut still, like dust, I'll rise.You may
> shoot me with your words,You may cut me with your eyes,You may kill
> me with your hatefulness,But still, like air, I’ll rise.Just like
> moons and like suns,With the certainty of tides,Just like hopes
> springing high,Still I'll rise.*
> 
> >From "Still I Rise" by Maya Angelou
> 
> Adrienne G. Thompson
> Author and Inventor, GNU C-Graph
> She/Her
> -- 
> Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
> 
> GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
> Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
> Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
> Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

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On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 7:59 PM Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:

>
> meritocracy is silly in terms of advancing equality, because it
> implies an equal playing field - nothing is further from the truth
>
> If you have the choice between a more qualified male candidate and less
> qualified female candidate, hire the female candidate - and
> train/educate her. it's important.
>

I was referring more to talent than "qualifications". And BTW, I'm black,
female (cis), and from the Third World (Jamaica).

Lickkle More <https://jamaicanpatwah.com/term/Lickkle-more/1032#.XYGEPChKiM8
>
Adrienne
Author and Inventor, GNU C-Graph
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

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   On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 7:59 PM Leah Rowe <[1]info@minifree.org> wrote:

     meritocracy is silly in terms of advancing equality, because it
     implies an equal playing field - nothing is further from the truth
     If you have the choice between a more qualified male candidate and
     less
     qualified female candidate, hire the female candidate - and
     train/educate her. it's important.

   I was referring more to talent than "qualifications". And BTW, I'm
   black, female (cis), and from the Third World (Jamaica).
   Lickkle More
   <[2]https://jamaicanpatwah.com/term/Lickkle-more/1032#.XYGEPChKiM8>
   Adrienne
   Author and Inventor, GNU C-Graph
   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [3]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [4]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [5]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. mailto:info@minifree.org
   2. https://jamaicanpatwah.com/term/Lickkle-more/1032#.XYGEPChKiM8
   3. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   4. http://codeartnow.com/
   5. http://www.abertheid.info/

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Jeffrey Haines via libreplanet-discuss]

You’re all acting like children seriously! Grow up all of you. I thought I could have more respect for you people- what’s done is done.

If you don’t like the discussion then go do something you do like.. let others have their conversation.

If you still support RMS then make your point, let some time go by and invite him to contribute again in the future. He chose to step down to let everyone breath and to accept the heat society wanted to dish out for what they believe, know or don’t know..

And to the person with a real “job” programming give me a fucking break. There’s more to FSF than the software. Get out of your bubble and chill out... Go back to your day job.

> On Sep 17, 2019, at 8:35 PM, libreplanet-discuss-request@libreplanet.org wrote:
> 
> Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Is Stallman nuts?


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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[quiliro]

On Tue, September 17, 2019 7:59 pm, Leah Rowe wrote:
>
> meritocracy is silly in terms of advancing equality, because it
> implies an equal playing field - nothing is further from the truth
>
> women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
> descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.
>
> we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the movement.
> since you know, they actually form at least half the planet and have
> the same intelligence/potential.
>
> I say this as an LGBT person.
>
> If you have the choice between a more qualified male candidate and less
> qualified female candidate, hire the female candidate - and
> train/educate her. it's important.

I do have a priority to support these groups. But I have decided to stop
support for women. I have been attacked by them 3 times because I speak my
mind out. (I know I should speak less.) The other groups have taken my
opinions as such, not as personal attacks. A couple groups that defend
women's rights have attacked me instead of exchanging ideas and accepting
that I do not have to do as they wish unless they convince me. So I have
decided to remove my support for women unless one of these groups proves
they deserve my support again by being reciprocal in supporting my own
values and the people in our group instead of attacking us.


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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Isaac David]

I know I'm not replying directly to the mail I'm supposed to.

>On Tue, September 17, 2019 7:59 pm, Leah Rowe wrote:
>>
>> women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
>> descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.

The latter isn't necessarily a consequence of the former, which you seem to imply. Evidence shows there's a negative correlation between the fairer a society is for women and the amount of women getting into STEM. This would be explained by biologicaly-rooted dimorphic interests that flourish the best under free conditions. _Most_ (cis) women would rather excel at other areas if given the opportunity, and that's fine. Men aren't discriminated against just because women dominate fields such as psychology and nursing.

>> we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the movement.
>> since you know, they actually form at least half the planet and have
>> the same intelligence/potential.

We need to give more people software freedom. Insofar as people buy computers, they deserve control over them.

It's a bare fact in psychology that _sex_ produces differences in domain-specific intelligences, even though general intelligence may be the same (at least for our species).

Search for an online Harvard lecture called "The Truth Cannot Be Sexist" by Dr
 Steven Pinker if this sounds alien to you.

Not having more female programmers doesn't mean the free software movement is failing them.

>> I say this as an LGBT person.

We know who you are, no need to brag about it. You were the last person to run with a libelous scandal against the FSF the moment you found a trans employee had resigned from it.

>> If you have the choice between a more qualified male candidate and
>less
>> qualified female candidate, hire the female candidate - and
>> train/educate her.

Gender quotas only start to make sense when you have so many people qualified for a position of power that you can sideline optimising for qualification and start optimising for distribution of power. Congress is one such example. I'm not positive that most women would _enjoy_ being programmers or IT people, and that's fine. Everyone should be free to be whatever they like.

Don't confuse personal satisfaction and equal opportunity with mandatory quotas.
-- 
Envoyé de mon appareil Android avec Courriel K-9 Mail. Veuillez excuser ma brièveté.

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Joel Holder]

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Congratulations, I’m officially unsubscribing from this list because of
this stupid thread that will not stop spamming my inbox with emotionally
torked posery.

As I depart, I leave you with these words.  This is not twitter!  There
used to be netiquette and collegiality observed here.  We have a vision and
agenda to open minds and allow knowledge to flow where it will.  We are not
here to hero worship nor plant non topical trigger bait.

Learn to separate people from their ideas...

The movement stands on its own.

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 2:07 PM lily via liber planet-discuss <
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

>    Earlier in this thread, I sent the message below (last paragraph). I
>    want to state that I have not been following the current issue of
>    Stallman's statements closely, nor have I been following the Epstein
>    case closely.
>    I am just a young woman who got involved in the Free Software movement,
>    because I want to help people attain freedom. Over the past decade I
>    have admired the work of Stallman and the FSF community. So much good
>    has come out of these efforts. I personally, have been able to reach a
>    freedom that I could only dream about as a little girl, because of free
>    software.
>    I do not wish to see us fight over things that would hurt the movement,
>    and I let my personal feelings get the best of me. I am the type of
>    person that believes all social issues are connected and really just
>    one issue. So the fighting, will only hurt us all.
>    Regardless of Stallman's resignation, I still see him at the heart of
>    the movement, but I also believe that the rest of us bear the
>    responsibility of carrying forth the message of freedom in technology
>    for protecting the freedoms of people. Furthermore, it is our
>    responsibility to see into the future and build a greater foundation of
>    principles and software to address more social issues.
>    I hope the community can agree with me on the point that we need
>    greater compassion and positivity continuing forward. Below is the
>    message I originally sent, for transparency of my actions.
>    Sincerely,
>    Lily
>    If it is true that Stallman called these victims as willing. I entirely
>    agree with Marry-Anne. The Free Software movement already lacks female
>    support and these comments will only push more women away. I as a woman
>    who has also suffered harrassment as a child and as an adult, do not
>    want a leader who says things that hurt women. Stallman, you cannot do
>    this. We as members must be strong and have someone else represent us
>    period. FSF should take a stand and provide support for women and
>    actively invite women to a space where we know we are supported,
>    believed in and respected.
>    -------- Original Message --------
>    On Sep 17, 2019, 11:03 AM, < quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:
>
>      On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
>      > Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was misinterpreted.
>
>      By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against Richard by
>      MARY
>      ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have not
>      investigated the issue.
>
>      > Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for everyone.
>      d:-)
>
>      That would be nice. Lets!
>
>      _______________________________________________
>      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      [1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      [2]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
>      s
>
> References
>
>    1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    2. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile

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   Congratulations, I’m officially unsubscribing from this list because of
   this stupid thread that will not stop spamming my inbox with
   emotionally torked posery.
   As I depart, I leave you with these words.  This is not twitter!  There
   used to be netiquette and collegiality observed here.  We have a vision
   and agenda to open minds and allow knowledge to flow where it will.  We
   are not here to hero worship nor plant non topical trigger bait.
   Learn to separate people from their ideas...
   The movement stands on its own.
   On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 2:07 PM lily via liber planet-discuss
   <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote:

        Earlier in this thread, I sent the message below (last
     paragraph). I
        want to state that I have not been following the current issue of
        Stallman's statements closely, nor have I been following the
     Epstein
        case closely.
        I am just a young woman who got involved in the Free Software
     movement,
        because I want to help people attain freedom. Over the past
     decade I
        have admired the work of Stallman and the FSF community. So much
     good
        has come out of these efforts. I personally, have been able to
     reach a
        freedom that I could only dream about as a little girl, because
     of free
        software.
        I do not wish to see us fight over things that would hurt the
     movement,
        and I let my personal feelings get the best of me. I am the type
     of
        person that believes all social issues are connected and really
     just
        one issue. So the fighting, will only hurt us all.
        Regardless of Stallman's resignation, I still see him at the
     heart of
        the movement, but I also believe that the rest of us bear the
        responsibility of carrying forth the message of freedom in
     technology
        for protecting the freedoms of people. Furthermore, it is our
        responsibility to see into the future and build a greater
     foundation of
        principles and software to address more social issues.
        I hope the community can agree with me on the point that we need
        greater compassion and positivity continuing forward. Below is
     the
        message I originally sent, for transparency of my actions.
        Sincerely,
        Lily
        If it is true that Stallman called these victims as willing. I
     entirely
        agree with Marry-Anne. The Free Software movement already lacks
     female
        support and these comments will only push more women away. I as a
     woman
        who has also suffered harrassment as a child and as an adult, do
     not
        want a leader who says things that hurt women. Stallman, you
     cannot do
        this. We as members must be strong and have someone else
     represent us
        period. FSF should take a stand and provide support for women and
        actively invite women to a space where we know we are supported,
        believed in and respected.
        -------- Original Message --------
        On Sep 17, 2019, 11:03 AM, < [2]quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:
          On Tue, September 17, 2019 12:04 pm, Ole Aamot wrote:
          > Actually I feel sorry now if what I posted was
     misinterpreted.
          By me? No. I am sorry the message that campaigned against
     Richard by
          MARY
          ANNE WOLF made such a bad impression of him on people that have
     not
          investigated the issue.
          > Let's create a good and welcoming Libreplanet 2020 for
     everyone.
          d:-)
          That would be nice. Lets!
          _______________________________________________
          libreplanet-discuss mailing list
          [1][3]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org

     [2][4]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-dis
     cus
          s
     References
        1. mailto:[5]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
        2.
     [6]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s
     _______________________________________________
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References

   1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   2. mailto:quiliro@riseup.net
   3. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   4. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
   5. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   6. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
   7. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Caleb Herbert]

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On 09/18/2019 12:28 AM, Isaac David wrote:
> The latter isn't necessarily a consequence of the former, which you seem to imply. Evidence shows there's a negative correlation between the fairer a society is for women and the amount of women getting into STEM. This would be explained by biologicaly-rooted dimorphic interests that flourish the best under free conditions. _Most_ (cis) women would rather excel at other areas if given the opportunity, and that's fine. Men aren't discriminated against just because women dominate fields such as psychology and nursing.

I'm gay and I want to be a homemaker and take care of the kids while
Daddy's at work.  I'm sure some girls wanna do the same.

-- 
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

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n:Herbert;Caleb
adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America
email;internet:csh@bluehome.net
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tel;cell:816-892-9669
note:KE0VVT
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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I'm on the feminine spectrum of gender identity, and here are my
hobbies:

* soldering
* programming
* fine art
* martial arts
* sewing
* cooking

I watch violent TV shows and play violent video games.

Just saying, assigning roles to someone based on their demographic is
stupid.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 10:42:10 -0500 Caleb Herbert
<csh@bluehome.net> wrote:

> On 09/18/2019 12:28 AM, Isaac David wrote:
> > The latter isn't necessarily a consequence of the former, which you
> > seem to imply. Evidence shows there's a negative correlation
> > between the fairer a society is for women and the amount of women
> > getting into STEM. This would be explained by biologicaly-rooted
> > dimorphic interests that flourish the best under free conditions.
> > _Most_ (cis) women would rather excel at other areas if given the
> > opportunity, and that's fine. Men aren't discriminated against just
> > because women dominate fields such as psychology and nursing.
> 
> I'm gay and I want to be a homemaker and take care of the kids while
> Daddy's at work.  I'm sure some girls wanna do the same.
> 
> -- 
> Caleb Herbert
> KE0VVT
> 816-892-9669
> https://bluehome.net/csh


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

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Leah,


> women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
> descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.
>
> we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the movement.
> since you know, they actually form at least half the planet and have
> the same intelligence/potential.
>

I agree. At the same time while making sure to give minorities
opportunities, let them know that the whole purpose is to give them a
chance to show that they are equally capable.

Adrienne
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

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   Leah,

     women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
     descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.
     we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the movement.
     since you know, they actually form at least half the planet and have
     the same intelligence/potential.

   I agree. At the same time while making sure to give minorities
   opportunities, let them know that the whole purpose is to give them a
   chance to show that they are equally capable.
   Adrienne
   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [1]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [2]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [3]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   2. http://codeartnow.com/
   3. http://www.abertheid.info/

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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there are two types of equality activist:
* diplomat
* thug

I'm of the diplomatic variety. The ones that you had a negative
experience with are the thug type.

It's the diplomatic ones that make the real change. People like me, who
do real work rather than just shouting on twitter or on mailing lists.

Real work involves:
* befriending people, even if you despise them
* listening to people
* making them realize that you're not a threat

This is what I mean by diplomacy. You simply make friends, and make
people see your point of view.

A diplomat does their best to convince people and to make allies.

By comparison, the thug type simply complains and alienates people.

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 23:35:00 -0500
quiliro@riseup.net wrote:

> On Tue, September 17, 2019 7:59 pm, Leah Rowe wrote:
> >
> > meritocracy is silly in terms of advancing equality, because it
> > implies an equal playing field - nothing is further from the truth
> >
> > women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
> > descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.
> >
> > we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the movement.
> > since you know, they actually form at least half the planet and have
> > the same intelligence/potential.
> >
> > I say this as an LGBT person.
> >
> > If you have the choice between a more qualified male candidate and
> > less qualified female candidate, hire the female candidate - and
> > train/educate her. it's important.
> 
> I do have a priority to support these groups. But I have decided to
> stop support for women. I have been attacked by them 3 times because
> I speak my mind out. (I know I should speak less.) The other groups
> have taken my opinions as such, not as personal attacks. A couple
> groups that defend women's rights have attacked me instead of
> exchanging ideas and accepting that I do not have to do as they wish
> unless they convince me. So I have decided to remove my support for
> women unless one of these groups proves they deserve my support again
> by being reciprocal in supporting my own values and the people in our
> group instead of attacking us.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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there is a hidden 4th item on that bullet point list:
* empathy. understanding what the other is thinking, and seeing where
they are coming from. "know your enemy"

Many activists fail on this aspect. They fail to understand what
they're opposing.

On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:25:16 +0100 Leah Rowe
<info@minifree.org> wrote:

> 
> there are two types of equality activist:
> * diplomat
> * thug
> 
> I'm of the diplomatic variety. The ones that you had a negative
> experience with are the thug type.
> 
> It's the diplomatic ones that make the real change. People like me,
> who do real work rather than just shouting on twitter or on mailing
> lists.
> 
> Real work involves:
> * befriending people, even if you despise them
> * listening to people
> * making them realize that you're not a threat
> 
> This is what I mean by diplomacy. You simply make friends, and make
> people see your point of view.
> 
> A diplomat does their best to convince people and to make allies.
> 
> By comparison, the thug type simply complains and alienates people.
> 
> On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 23:35:00 -0500
> quiliro@riseup.net wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, September 17, 2019 7:59 pm, Leah Rowe wrote:
> > >
> > > meritocracy is silly in terms of advancing equality, because it
> > > implies an equal playing field - nothing is further from the truth
> > >
> > > women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
> > > descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.
> > >
> > > we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the
> > > movement. since you know, they actually form at least half the
> > > planet and have the same intelligence/potential.
> > >
> > > I say this as an LGBT person.
> > >
> > > If you have the choice between a more qualified male candidate and
> > > less qualified female candidate, hire the female candidate - and
> > > train/educate her. it's important.
> > 
> > I do have a priority to support these groups. But I have decided to
> > stop support for women. I have been attacked by them 3 times because
> > I speak my mind out. (I know I should speak less.) The other groups
> > have taken my opinions as such, not as personal attacks. A couple
> > groups that defend women's rights have attacked me instead of
> > exchanging ideas and accepting that I do not have to do as they wish
> > unless they convince me. So I have decided to remove my support for
> > women unless one of these groups proves they deserve my support
> > again by being reciprocal in supporting my own values and the
> > people in our group instead of attacking us.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 
> -- 
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> 
> Do you know you have rights?
> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> and censored by the government.
> 
> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> 
> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> United Kingdom


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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yes. i agree with you.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:44:48 -0500
"Adrienne G. Thompson" <adriennegayethompson@gmail.com> wrote:

> Leah,
> 
> 
> > women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
> > descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.
> >
> > we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the movement.
> > since you know, they actually form at least half the planet and have
> > the same intelligence/potential.
> >
> 
> I agree. At the same time while making sure to give minorities
> opportunities, let them know that the whole purpose is to give them a
> chance to show that they are equally capable.
> 
> Adrienne
> -- 
> Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
> 
> GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
> Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
> Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
> Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph


-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Diplomatic activism [was Re: Is Stallman nuts?]

[Aaron Wolf]

The "thug" style of activists can be so extreme and closed-minded that
they lash out at fellow activists for merely *proposing* diplomacy. Most
don't recognize that their thuggishness is itself the most dangerous
liability, undermining solidarity and credibility. These days, it's
sometimes hard to tell the difference between a bad-faith thug / troll /
bot and a good-faith but thuggish activist.

I'll emphasize what I said before about the need for Restorative Justice
approaches and attitudes.

And a great resource for diplomatic activism:
http://loveandradio.org/2014/02/the-silver-dollar/
and follow up http://loveandradio.org/2017/02/how-to-argue/

Thanks for emphasizing the language of diplomacy. I find that useful and
will embrace that term going forward.

On 2019-09-18 5:28 p.m., Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> 
> there is a hidden 4th item on that bullet point list:
> * empathy. understanding what the other is thinking, and seeing where
> they are coming from. "know your enemy"
> 
> Many activists fail on this aspect. They fail to understand what
> they're opposing.
> 
> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:25:16 +0100 Leah Rowe
> <info@minifree.org> wrote:
> 
>>
>> there are two types of equality activist:
>> * diplomat
>> * thug
>>
>> I'm of the diplomatic variety. The ones that you had a negative
>> experience with are the thug type.
>>
>> It's the diplomatic ones that make the real change. People like me,
>> who do real work rather than just shouting on twitter or on mailing
>> lists.
>>
>> Real work involves:
>> * befriending people, even if you despise them
>> * listening to people
>> * making them realize that you're not a threat
>>
>> This is what I mean by diplomacy. You simply make friends, and make
>> people see your point of view.
>>
>> A diplomat does their best to convince people and to make allies.
>>
>> By comparison, the thug type simply complains and alienates people.
>>
>> On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 23:35:00 -0500
>> quiliro@riseup.net wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, September 17, 2019 7:59 pm, Leah Rowe wrote:
>>>>
>>>> meritocracy is silly in terms of advancing equality, because it
>>>> implies an equal playing field - nothing is further from the truth
>>>>
>>>> women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
>>>> descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.
>>>>
>>>> we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the
>>>> movement. since you know, they actually form at least half the
>>>> planet and have the same intelligence/potential.
>>>>
>>>> I say this as an LGBT person.
>>>>
>>>> If you have the choice between a more qualified male candidate and
>>>> less qualified female candidate, hire the female candidate - and
>>>> train/educate her. it's important.
>>>
>>> I do have a priority to support these groups. But I have decided to
>>> stop support for women. I have been attacked by them 3 times because
>>> I speak my mind out. (I know I should speak less.) The other groups
>>> have taken my opinions as such, not as personal attacks. A couple
>>> groups that defend women's rights have attacked me instead of
>>> exchanging ideas and accepting that I do not have to do as they wish
>>> unless they convince me. So I have decided to remove my support for
>>> women unless one of these groups proves they deserve my support
>>> again by being reciprocal in supporting my own values and the
>>> people in our group instead of attacking us.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>>
>> -- 
>> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
>> Company Director & Libreboot developer
>> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
>>
>> Do you know you have rights?
>> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
>> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
>> and censored by the government.
>>
>> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
>> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
>> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>>
>> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
>> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
>> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
>> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
>> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
>> United Kingdom
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 


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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Caleb Herbert]

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On 09/18/2019 06:13 PM, Leah Rowe wrote:
> Just saying, assigning roles to someone based on their demographic is
> stupid.

Yes.

-- 
Caleb Herbert
KE0VVT
816-892-9669
https://bluehome.net/csh

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n:Herbert;Caleb
adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America
email;internet:csh@bluehome.net
tel;home:816-869-3111
tel;cell:816-892-9669
note:KE0VVT
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:https://bluehome.net/csh/
version:2.1
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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > A) political concerns about patriarchy / sexism etc

  > I happen to be on the more feminist / progressive / left-wing side for
  > A,

I am, too.  And I will not change that because of the vilification
campaign.  The broader issues have not changed.

I am against the "cancel culture" in general, but that is not new
either.

  > On B specifically, I think everyone needs to learn more about
  > **Restorative Justice** and **Transformative Justice**

If anyone who felt hurt feelings from my postings had asked
me to consider per feelings and try to understand and empathize,
I would have tried my best.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[A. Mani]

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:04 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>   > A) political concerns about patriarchy / sexism etc
>   > I happen to be on the more feminist / progressive / left-wing side for
>   > A,
>
> I am, too.  And I will not change that because of the vilification
> campaign.  The broader issues have not changed.

There are many types of feminism. Since you claim to be 'more
feminist', your original statements (that were the subject of the
article in medium) mean that you likely support some kind of so-called
"sex-positive feminism" + you do not understand the position of
'trafficked women/children' in the situation.
Also, you haven't published a proper detailed article explaining your
position --- this is important

My feminism is more Marxist/Socialist, and I think the Nordic model
(https://nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/ ) is better. It
will help if you look into those aspects too.


>
> I am against the "cancel culture" in general, but that is not new
> either.
>
>   > On B specifically, I think everyone needs to learn more about
>   > **Restorative Justice** and **Transformative Justice**
>
> If anyone who felt hurt feelings from my postings had asked
> me to consider per feelings and try to understand and empathize,
> I would have tried my best.



It will also help if you address points ( about you) in the
geekfeminism wikia and elsewhere.

Please work on a detailed article/response.


Thanks and Best

A Mani

Prof.Dr.(Miss) A Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, IEEE
Senior Member, International Rough Set Society
Homepage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/
Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani_A
sip:girlprofessor@ekiga.net

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

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rms:

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:52 AM A. Mani <a.mani.cms@gmail.com> wrote:

> It will also help if you address points ( about you) in the
> geekfeminism wikia and elsewhere.
>
> Please work on a detailed article/response.
>

If you do decide to do this please have a few eyeballs read it and make
suggestions before it goes public. Your proof readers should include your
trusted friends, media consultants, and your attorney. Take your time.

Adrienne
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

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   rms:
   On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:52 AM A. Mani <[1]a.mani.cms@gmail.com>
   wrote:

     It will also help if you address points ( about you) in the
     geekfeminism wikia and elsewhere.
     Please work on a detailed article/response.

   If you do decide to do this please have a few eyeballs read it and make
   suggestions before it goes public. Your proof readers should include
   your trusted friends, media consultants, and your attorney. Take your
   time.
   Adrienne
   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. mailto:a.mani.cms@gmail.com
   2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   3. http://codeartnow.com/
   4. http://www.abertheid.info/

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I am not working on a response to the vilification.
On the substantive issues, my writings speak for themselves.
Other things, such as tone, we don't need to argue about.
If the worst thing someone believes about me is that I made
mistakes on that level, we can discuss it as friends.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Will Hill]

On Sunday 15 September 2019, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:

> Contrary to Stallman's comment that "the word 'assaulting' presumes that he
> applied force or violence", force or violence is not necessary to
> constitute rape or "assault".  The fact that a young woman might have
> presented herself as "willing" does not absolve the *alleged *offender of
> rape  ... 

He did not say that.  He said the phrase "sexual assault" is ambiguous and 
misleading, and that prostitution is not equivalent to violent rape.  

He also argued that it's wrong to define rape and assault by the letter of the 
law, probably because people should use their morals to guide the law rather 
than the other way.  

This does not "absolve" Minsky, it just means we people should not categorize 
Minsky as a violent rapist of the sort Epstein was.  It should go without 
saying that the further inflation of Stallman into a defender of Epstein is 
an injustice.   

On Sunday 15 September 2019, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:

> The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is driven by ethical
> sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape anytime soon. So let's
> just tell rms to shut up about the Epstein matter, not to attempt to defend
> his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are not worth defending) and
> to get a female FSF colleague to censor all his comments pertaining to
> women before these comments go public.
>

No, Richard Stallman has been grossly misrepresented.  I'm glad he said so.  

I'm sorry Leah, but yes I do like fish.  I'd be happy to see you in Fairhope, 
Alabama but I understand you have better things to do with your time.  If you 
do show up, I promise to buy you some well prepared fish.   


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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Adrienne G. Thompson]

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On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 12:29 PM Will Hill <will.hillnotes@gmail.com> wrote:

> He did not say that.  He said the phrase "sexual assault" is ambiguous and
> misleading, and that prostitution is not equivalent to violent rape.
>
> He also argued that it's wrong to define rape and assault by the letter of
> the
> law, probably because people should use their morals to guide the law
> rather
> than the other way.
>


>
> No, Richard Stallman has been grossly misrepresented.  I'm glad he said
> so.
>

Yes, Richard has been maliciously misrepresented - that is the point of my
defending him. I'll pars the actual paragraph on which I commented, look
again at rms' own email and make corrections as necessary. This caught me
midstream trying to wrap up C-Graph's business plan so forgive me if I was
not 100% accurate. Gotta run. Will post later.

Adrienne

PS: You like fish? RMS is a big fish! Let's give him plenty of support so
we can swim with him in less polluted waters.  #RiseUp
-- 
Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!

GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

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   On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 12:29 PM Will Hill
   <[1]will.hillnotes@gmail.com> wrote:

     He did not say that.  He said the phrase "sexual assault" is
     ambiguous and
     misleading, and that prostitution is not equivalent to violent
     rape.
     He also argued that it's wrong to define rape and assault by the
     letter of the
     law, probably because people should use their morals to guide the
     law rather
     than the other way.


     No, Richard Stallman has been grossly misrepresented.  I'm glad he
     said so.

   Yes, Richard has been maliciously misrepresented - that is the point of
   my defending him. I'll pars the actual paragraph on which I commented,
   look again at rms' own email and make corrections as necessary. This
   caught me midstream trying to wrap up C-Graph's business plan so
   forgive me if I was not 100% accurate. Gotta run. Will post later.
   Adrienne
   PS: You like fish? RMS is a big fish! Let's give him plenty of support
   so we can swim with him in less polluted waters.  #RiseUp
   --
   Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
   GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com
   Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info
   Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph

References

   1. mailto:will.hillnotes@gmail.com
   2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
   3. http://codeartnow.com/
   4. http://www.abertheid.info/

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Re: Diplomatic activism [was Re: Is Stallman nuts?]

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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you should know, I used to be the "thug" type of activist. it took me a
long time to learn diplomacy, but over the years i have mastered the
art.

I've always seen the free software leadership (including RMS) as being
diplomatic (while not compromising), which is something that I respect.
I don't respect thuggish behaviour, because it is counter productive.

I fully expect that, regardless of RMS's position at the FSF, he'll
continue to do what he does. Afterall, he was never a paid employee of
the FSF and he mostly funded himself by e.g. charging conferences for
him to do talks at them

I wish him well.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:37:21 -0700
Aaron Wolf <wolftune@riseup.net> wrote:

> The "thug" style of activists can be so extreme and closed-minded that
> they lash out at fellow activists for merely *proposing* diplomacy.
> Most don't recognize that their thuggishness is itself the most
> dangerous liability, undermining solidarity and credibility. These
> days, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between a bad-faith
> thug / troll / bot and a good-faith but thuggish activist.
> 
> I'll emphasize what I said before about the need for Restorative
> Justice approaches and attitudes.
> 
> And a great resource for diplomatic activism:
> http://loveandradio.org/2014/02/the-silver-dollar/
> and follow up http://loveandradio.org/2017/02/how-to-argue/
> 
> Thanks for emphasizing the language of diplomacy. I find that useful
> and will embrace that term going forward.
> 
> On 2019-09-18 5:28 p.m., Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
> > 
> > there is a hidden 4th item on that bullet point list:
> > * empathy. understanding what the other is thinking, and seeing
> > where they are coming from. "know your enemy"
> > 
> > Many activists fail on this aspect. They fail to understand what
> > they're opposing.
> > 
> > On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:25:16 +0100 Leah Rowe
> > <info@minifree.org> wrote:
> > 
> >>
> >> there are two types of equality activist:
> >> * diplomat
> >> * thug
> >>
> >> I'm of the diplomatic variety. The ones that you had a negative
> >> experience with are the thug type.
> >>
> >> It's the diplomatic ones that make the real change. People like me,
> >> who do real work rather than just shouting on twitter or on mailing
> >> lists.
> >>
> >> Real work involves:
> >> * befriending people, even if you despise them
> >> * listening to people
> >> * making them realize that you're not a threat
> >>
> >> This is what I mean by diplomacy. You simply make friends, and make
> >> people see your point of view.
> >>
> >> A diplomat does their best to convince people and to make allies.
> >>
> >> By comparison, the thug type simply complains and alienates people.
> >>
> >> On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 23:35:00 -0500
> >> quiliro@riseup.net wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, September 17, 2019 7:59 pm, Leah Rowe wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> meritocracy is silly in terms of advancing equality, because it
> >>>> implies an equal playing field - nothing is further from the
> >>>> truth
> >>>>
> >>>> women (and LGBT people, and black people etc) are routinely
> >>>> descriminated against, and less likely to get involved in tech.
> >>>>
> >>>> we need to spend more effort bringing such people into the
> >>>> movement. since you know, they actually form at least half the
> >>>> planet and have the same intelligence/potential.
> >>>>
> >>>> I say this as an LGBT person.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you have the choice between a more qualified male candidate
> >>>> and less qualified female candidate, hire the female candidate -
> >>>> and train/educate her. it's important.
> >>>
> >>> I do have a priority to support these groups. But I have decided
> >>> to stop support for women. I have been attacked by them 3 times
> >>> because I speak my mind out. (I know I should speak less.) The
> >>> other groups have taken my opinions as such, not as personal
> >>> attacks. A couple groups that defend women's rights have attacked
> >>> me instead of exchanging ideas and accepting that I do not have
> >>> to do as they wish unless they convince me. So I have decided to
> >>> remove my support for women unless one of these groups proves
> >>> they deserve my support again by being reciprocal in supporting
> >>> my own values and the people in our group instead of attacking us.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> >> Company Director & Libreboot developer
> >> https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> >>
> >> Do you know you have rights?
> >> The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> >> and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> >> and censored by the government.
> >>
> >> Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> >> Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> >> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> >>
> >> Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> >> Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> >> VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> >> Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> >> Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> >> United Kingdom
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss]

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On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 13:26:06 -0500
"Adrienne G. Thompson" <adriennegayethompson@gmail.com> wrote:

> PS: You like fish? RMS is a big fish! Let's give him plenty of
> support so we can swim with him in less polluted waters.  #RiseUp

Now I can't get that picture out of my head :S

-- 
Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
Company Director & Libreboot developer
https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/

Do you know you have rights?
The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
and censored by the government.

Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
VAT Registration No. GB202190462
Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
United Kingdom

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Re: Is Stallman nuts?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > If you take a glance on this list, on twitter, and in other corners of the
  > internets, there are a ton of folks sharing their legitimate concerns about
  > the broader issues in free software, FSF, and rms.

That is proper for people to do.  To the extent they are making claims
about me, they should look at what I really said and did.

Widely-read articles have made false statements about me.  For
instance, they said I "defended Epstein" (I never did), and that I
said Giuffre was willing to have sex with Minsky (I didn't believe or
say that).  You can help those discussions reach valid conclusions by
pointing out my actual words and explaining what they mean in English.

It is useful to point, in those discussions, to my postings about
Epstein on stallman.org as well, since they showed what I think about
him and his actions.

But let's not have such discussions on this list, because it is
off-topic and would get in the way.



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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