From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.1 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9617B1F990 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 14:56:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:53136 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k2yMY-00044F-IV for e@80x24.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:56:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36882) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k2r4L-00057Z-On for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 03:09:05 -0400 Received: from server.os-k.eu ([51.91.255.83]:36386 helo=os-k.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k2r4I-0007R7-SX for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 03:09:05 -0400 Received: by os-k.eu (Postfix, from userid 120) id 5926521129; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:08:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (pop.92-184-97-12.mobile.abo.orange.fr [92.184.97.12]) by os-k.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C5C12111E for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:08:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 09:08:56 +0200 From: "Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode)" To: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Subject: Re: Matrix communication protocol. User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <1596491111.8551.0@disroot.org> References: <1596039936.1150.2@disroot.org> <20200730043725.GC25289@ossguy.com> <1596125074.1189.0@disroot.org> <20200730162745.GE25289@ossguy.com> <1596138703.28021.1@disroot.org> <20200731030048.GI25289@ossguy.com> <1596185910.1161.0@disroot.org> <2E654784-A437-418F-993D-8535D29922AF@os-k.eu> <1596302715.1141.0@disroot.org> <20200801173456.GP25289@ossguy.com> <43ED4949-3E64-4D3F-A2D1-1628B9F61B22@os-k.eu> <1596491111.8551.0@disroot.org> Message-ID: Autocrypt: addr=neox@os-k.eu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGNBF6IUkYBDADWXOxTQcS7Xn0Q9yhiUhAgFcy4ZklGgRLdi+BePprVU/gVu5KBfNDFyIFvtfb7 E4hDTChx4LoCkzqQp4nC5RTI1/HvZ4vY0dIvNmsC1AhuyKREzlKuNpN4PTjRDdUDm7GqQAHNLYac 9YavmQeOMbA1T2MlQgRwJMBxSV933riwrFpW4BI0BqXbEMwBIIaJN101RiGLNG2WYMpBSz/RI26G A7QTGzyxeGgBRWV6xfi0o2QPglt9KQbIkumqbMInqHZHsRnL+RHiFbOSEHINLJ64XKAACjPcslTc adjEUIZUezUcNZ+DohpEFCocFlDxuugIe3ZIztdA95LXNY5vqjaEhXl1nMe35/uzy9zft7ZDvJz0 vTXr+PBzUYN0tYWI7+RhRvfvTr2uA2YNyvLdxZh8BA+TfQJmLAY2tKMmvgmxLGxxTTH22mKV1SbK enDM+gbOYw8kGF9Y6gNArZn19BJvKH+bhbbSfVu2CpS3yQXuWZfi9ndk0fIIh+yj8Cj021cAEQEA AbQyQWRyaWVuIEJvdXJtYXVsdCAoTmVvWCBvbiBGcmVlbm9kZSkgPG5lb3hAb3Mtay5ldT6JAdQE EwEIAD4WIQTd0IWDfE3PkHJa0BfjtMf8QSAaUwUCXohSSAIbAwUJAeEzgAULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDjtMf8QSAaU6ZLDACEMGira18WM4x48pAh1RAmCxFz+bRLMXaDEU0MXDgZ FzKwUy3ujkaRGwjd8IlL/fmlePMivaGyzCdMVPIfgrH15o2vjFfcA2xMjkYk/6HlRMzmLBCWNLdf 3og1NINF1U6hFFfwaSTvG9YLGx9MGM4kpKY8NhhwLZ+KtzZSYfQH3nRbHn1Ms8BB2FrAWqrLbNYP mhFNs2/Y3llBh9mVJMuNUs3J0aX/TBaHFb2FDSVPTFg2iNmD/dVmBbx5IzhK45pS62UibL4qW7te wbttPyAdkhLhBpirIN6UwYV7Cfw2NpUgglrUDRC8tfsc1x4ggNadgVwuQCpMaxc4vvqGHUFIuQm0 2nkeQyeQmfu52ST5KRxiJvsh+oSO/Awsp5XcFwUpsbNiiy0DsN4F1PamT+s9v/mnuA6UZWt2J4SA oJThdSDo8f4QXH3K10rCzKkCf7uJ/+Ft/28yH+4Jz/UQWfof0PBqd6iFzCYkB0dYo8jUpqZoLF+3 lozheND0PlyTzoy5AY0EXohSRwEMAKlw//HuUiVz6wc9tnRxX52W1xa95br7GmqAW+SjIRjK4SCf XYnnBoxmKiK6OxSAU1wQKDksUzufwXiueIODtMjkkuA1ycLEhBPk2vJ+dEV3mXenVosLMWdMePbj 46XkdUcRvWiqlGsmth5S+f57tGz5Pd467cbH6Qjbpb21QUN3r7oC+Cn8e1nv6oN2OOsyR1hv//Kx PccLuwglOn1n+/15sccIM9eNgfHAWVy9KTMKwOwznc/yogVO1hmJFbb98K9dlE1Bluz7oUnUF3Ai HvYe6xqRv5mJ9fZDDDqFWH/nlBiEWxDCifNx+xi5ZdvYc4+O88pImPZi+6tLfxQyegUXr0mzcBXo l1rNTWxZQek4KwVpsJ+bMHR2C+HaT9C6YM3vX0gyeqVmSxll9yZWdrF521oTGJZJEMAgxxHrWiKW oLUrxb25zsaO4/czB/OminLqr+oIp14RzThW58OqIhyW/0/5wyt2rpTZSrHZK7lW+aOoq9nYvpUF n3+YH5TnXQARAQABiQG8BBgBCAAmFiEE3dCFg3xNz5ByWtAX47TH/EEgGlMFAl6IUkcCGwwFCQHh M4AACgkQ47TH/EEgGlNNrAv9HEkkDVUdgPYLpUPT9tyDqJXoUQ3rLRp3VysgwfdSVoiN4Cn8gdpo I2v6EQryv15yvF7+0iCe3UsajzP7pSL5sTy3BtmRMItuZ63ePghM9Wyb0v07ocWtxC2/KM4naS8f 6n0C8EupKkxukFrTfqqeFCwcDAX6qfGhypk6HwhfhwDpPAaCRVv8VTYSnLLVQMfPwUGKKkVarYWO QQGCEd/bUTaz6XgJTL6OipKeKBZ/UxWinh2TZWAkUBU9VNGH/T6ewaJ55iS4MmAPeOKOjNTyiuII W49MqV6iGVIrAR9KIddy6j3jGXa0c++GV4C3BurE+h0p9ZBaQXvbPh4j45winD+Hk2hV1/+iJ6fN dGmBSdPxQuqIwVPwJWuGeV0FaHvtW2O9ZQ4EzvK+h+L6+7jTIlW4E2k/sTj4zL/M4JtDsOENywNR /c9s5+3YS8VjFK2huPhgsb36tj4C8PrdKntdEYb5b2B2LCjCXqS4AShqvhmM+pf8FAVUNkcEabvU wFKk MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none client-ip=51.91.255.83; envelope-from=neox@os-k.eu; helo=os-k.eu X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/08/04 03:08:59 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:54:26 -0400 X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8307379828895288652==" Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" --===============8307379828895288652== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="----EYMEY4V6XF68R410JON8VQXYUNOE4Z"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha512" ------EYMEY4V6XF68R410JON8VQXYUNOE4Z Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Le 3 ao=C3=BBt 2020 23:45:11 GMT+02:00, Msavoritias a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: >Okay First of all I am going to say once more that I am not talking=20 >about Riot, Element or anything like that=2E I am talking about the=20 >protocol=2E >Please read my messages=2E But you're telling us about XMPP on mobile=2E Have you a functionnal alter= native to Conversations on Android that has the same features ? >Third what I know is that Olm is based on Signal encryption=2E If you=20 >say that Singnal encryption is not that good then I am afraid our=20 >conversation ends here because it is clear you don't know what you are=20 >talking about=2E That is not to say OMEMO is not good=2E OMEMO is based on Signal encryption, known as Axolotl, and is audited by e= xperts (see https://conversations=2Eim/omemo/)=2E Then Olm and Megolm appea= red, and Megolm is the most used in order to allow people to retrieve messa= ges when changing their devices (so no forward secrecy)=2E=20 > >Also Element is functional=2E Like Conversations=2E Just like other clien= ts=20 >like Fluffy Chat and Dillo=2E Proprietary software is antifeature=2E >Also I am not talking about Synapse=2E There are other servers to choose= =20 >from=2E And the higher usage comes at the cost of features which XMPP=20 >lacks=2E Personally I find that acceptable=2E But Synapse is the most used=2E > >What do you mean about advocating Google? The youtube widget? Recatpcha, is a best example=2E >This is not about beauty or anything like that=2E It is about=20 >functionality and modern features that I have first hand experienced=20 >users caring about=2E Which features are you talking about ??? >MSavoritias > >On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 01:01, Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode)=20 > wrote: >> Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and is=20 >> not more modern than XMPP=2E In computer science, be young is not=20 >> always a quality for a protocol, and XMPP has proven many times it=20 >> was evolutive and reliable=2E >>=20 >> The XSF point of view is different from the Matrix/Vector one : the=20 >> XSF is a non profit foundation, in the tracks of IETF=2E They made a=20 >> protocol in the hope that it will be useful and that's it=2E You can't= =20 >> say the same for Vector=2E >>=20 >> We shouldn't have that discussion since the company behind the Matrix= =20 >> protocol advocates for non free software, and open source when they=20 >> want to be popular=2E >>=20 >>> If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in >= =20 >>> capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can=20 >>> be > overcomed=2E >>=20 >> I can't understand what do you mean=2E Conversations is developed by a= =20 >> very small team, practically one person, and you conclude that this=20 >> app that evolves permanently has already shown all that could be=20 >> shown ? Excuse me, but at this time there is no client for Matrix as=20 >> functional as Conversations (since non free software usage or=20 >> advocacy is for me an anti-feature worst than "lack of stickers") and= =20 >> XMPP server softwares like Ejabberd or Prosody are way more reliable=20 >> and powerful than Synapse (which is subject to overconsumption I=20 >> observed)=2E >>=20 >> It is clear that you like Matrix very well, but your arguments are=20 >> wrong and subjective=2E >>=20 >>> In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development=20 >>> outside > of Conversations=2E >>=20 >> I can't agree=2E ChatSecure (for iOS) is a really active project and=20 >> devs of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and=20 >> are XSF members=2E There are many forks of both, and it provides=20 >> additionnal choices for people=2E >>=20 >> On mobile, there is only one functionnal Matrix client : Element=2E And= =20 >> it advocates for non free software, especially Google one=2E >>=20 >>> I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though=2E So maybe it= =20 >>> finds some use there=2E >>=20 >> Have you ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care=20 >> about privacy, everyone should encrypt his communications=2E XMPP's=20 >> modern encryption (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than Olm/Megolm= =20 >> (because it seems Vector thought that forward secrecy was an=20 >> anti-feature lol)=2E >>=20 >> Do you think the FSF should advocate for that? With all the problems=20 >> that Vector has, it would be a treason for people who trust the FSF=2E >>=20 >> I can understand you like Element because it has stickers and it is=20 >> beautiful=2E This is the same with other software that are unethical=20 >> but beautiful=2E Free software is about freedom, not popularity >>=20 >> Librement, >>=20 >> Le 1 ao=C3=BBt 2020 19:34:56 GMT+02:00, Denver Gingerich=20 >> > a =C3=A9crit : >>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: >>>> The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't=20 >>>> have good >>>> clients for Mobile, >>>=20 >>> You mention this repeatedly without explaining why Conversations has= =20 >>> "bad design"=2E Most people I know love the design of Conversations,= =20 >>> so I have trouble seeing why Conversations is holding back XMPP in=20 >>> some way=2E >>>=20 >>>> doesn't have modern features >>>=20 >>> The only feature you have explicitly mentioned is "stickers"=2E I'm= =20 >>> not sure why this is an important feature for FSF to have in a=20 >>> protocol they want to promote=2E Are there other "modern features"=20 >>> that XMPP is missing? >>>=20 >>>> or even a coherent standard=2E >>>=20 >>> As we've mentioned, there are coherent standards for XMPP=2E If you= =20 >>> want a client that supports the important standards, use Gajim or=20 >>> Conversations=2E >>>=20 >>>> So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we= =20 >>>> can >>>> attract new contributors that may want modern features=2E >>>=20 >>> Per above, please tell us which "modern features" you mean=2E Thanks! >>>=20 >>> Denver >>> >> Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and=20 >> is >> not more modern than XMPP=2E In computer science, be young is not=20 >> always >> a quality for a protocol, and XMPP has proven many times it was >> evolutive and reliable=2E >> The XSF point of view is different from the Matrix/Vector one :=20 >> the XSF >> is a non profit foundation, in the tracks of IETF=2E They made a=20 >> protocol >> in the hope that it will be useful and that's it=2E You can't say th= e >> same for Vector=2E >> We shouldn't have that discussion since the company behind the=20 >> Matrix >> protocol advocates for non free software, and open source when they >> want to be popular=2E >> > If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is=20 >> in > >> capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can= =20 >> be > >> overcomed=2E >> I can't understand what do you mean=2E Conversations is developed by= =20 >> a >> very small team, practically one person, and you conclude that=20 >> this app >> that evolves permanently has already shown all that could be shown= =20 >> ? >> Excuse me, but at this time there is no client for Matrix as=20 >> functional >> as Conversations (since non free software usage or advocacy is for= =20 >> me >> an anti-feature worst than "lack of stickers") and XMPP server >> softwares like Ejabberd or Prosody are way more reliable and=20 >> powerful >> than Synapse (which is subject to overconsumption I observed)=2E >> It is clear that you like Matrix very well, but your arguments are >> wrong and subjective=2E >> > In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development >> outside > of Conversations=2E >> I can't agree=2E ChatSecure (for iOS) is a really active project and= =20 >> devs >> of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and are=20 >> XSF >> members=2E There are many forks of both, and it provides additionnal >> choices for people=2E >> On mobile, there is only one functionnal Matrix client : Element=2E= =20 >> And >> it advocates for non free software, especially Google one=2E >> > I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though=2E So maybe= =20 >> it >> finds some use there=2E >> Have you ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care=20 >> about >> privacy, everyone should encrypt his communications=2E XMPP's modern >> encryption (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than Olm/Megolm=20 >> (because >> it seems Vector thought that forward secrecy was an anti-feature=20 >> lol)=2E >> Do you think the FSF should advocate for that? With all the=20 >> problems >> that Vector has, it would be a treason for people who trust the=20 >> FSF=2E >> I can understand you like Element because it has stickers and it is >> beautiful=2E This is the same with other software that are unethical= =20 >> but >> beautiful=2E Free software is about freedom, not popularity >> Librement, >>=20 >> Le 1 ao=C3=BBt 2020 19:34:56 GMT+02:00, Denver Gingerich=20 >> > >> a =C3=A9crit : >>=20 >> On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: >>=20 >> The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't have >> good >> clients for Mobile, >>=20 >> You mention this repeatedly without explaining why Conversations= =20 >> has >> "bad design"=2E Most people I know love the design of=20 >> Conversations, >> so I have trouble seeing why Conversations is holding back XMPP=20 >> in >> some way=2E >>=20 >> doesn't have modern features >>=20 >> The only feature you have explicitly mentioned is "stickers"=2E I'= m >> not sure why this is an important feature for FSF to have in a >> protocol they want to promote=2E Are there other "modern features" >> that XMPP is missing? >>=20 >> or even a coherent standard=2E >>=20 >> As we've mentioned, there are coherent standards for XMPP=2E If yo= u >> want a client that supports the important standards, use Gajim or >> Conversations=2E >>=20 >> So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we=20 >> can >> attract new contributors that may want modern features=2E >>=20 >> Per above, please tell us which "modern features" you mean=2E=20 >> Thanks! >> Denver >> [1] >>=20 >> References >>=20 >> 1=2E >> _______________________________________________ >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list >> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet=2Eorg=20 >> >> > ------EYMEY4V6XF68R410JON8VQXYUNOE4Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQHQBAABCgA6MxxBZHJpZW4gQm91cm1hdWx0IChOZW9YIG9uIEZyZWVub2RlKSA8 bmVveEBvcy1rLmV1PgUCXykJiAAKCRDjtMf8QSAaU3m7DACHvjczvoSYF5kox/77 JY4YRq+upt64C15LJadS0T/mOd4NKUd7g6DmEVTOmMrj5gJjLOLwYEZMjGlgyMSq LLirMqPafxRI0aXZX9PnG/EITWoYsBWpBak4criMCWg7V11CsaJZkyRzN9CF0tLk 7tqFhsG9u/ecwLYA0qkZKvra5ePk/s7Ju5wSbTPCRSHjWq/A/15z0EYYol3A8vjW DTFQwUOhwnMH7P83w1fqcnO48FHU1ZJoUT/2XZKCTYkD4u54QJ6Q4shbCoeN7Iy/ 5F6vwlq3pYO2D63sUnC/12mq/Fqs6Y6G7s7EALP9uU80leuyM4XJegrBGNNLHheM eBN7+6+meyVDkyH8sCQNUf+4L5HCnjURcFo5FCICJkCR6ZITGO58rddt2rrP6vvU C9SDCxOMyxnfnNZr+OFIqrm3lKPBjwUEGe/8c8tYcZBT9nMR817Uon1UxOmoVmYi //HTGmJ7DtBXmTglUC/9pXVBLWOJUWg74WpgAd5yL3korCE= =UCww -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------EYMEY4V6XF68R410JON8VQXYUNOE4Z-- --===============8307379828895288652== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KbGlicmVwbGFu ZXQtZGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGlicmVwbGFuZXQtZGlzY3Vzc0BsaWJyZXBsYW5ldC5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5saWJyZXBsYW5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saWJyZXBs YW5ldC1kaXNjdXNz --===============8307379828895288652==--