Re: Support RMS

[Danny Spitzberg <stationaery@gmail.com>]

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Ali, I’m disappointed but not surprised you came to that conclusion yet
again. The history seems to be the opposite: FSF staff organized a union
because RMS was causing harm and dysfunction, and at best, RMS went along
and accepted it as a net positive state of affairs.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:00 AM Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net> wrote:

> So basically some people are claiming RMS helped to set up a union to
> protect people from himself and that's one reason not to support RMS.
>
> You guys are making me support him more.
>
> On March 26, 2021 5:51:57 PM UTC, Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:
> >"It is union to try to protect people from RMS. / That's it. That's the
> >reason."
> >
> > As a matter of history that is simply and purely a lie.
> >
> >I don't see any of that kind of complaint, at this point, as anything
> >less or more than direct attempts to sabotage the FSF, the FSM, and GNU.
> >    It has no place here.  You are free not to associate with the FSF
> >and you should, it would seem, take that option.
> >
> >-t
> >
> >On 2021-03-26 10:46, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> >
> >> A union certainly helped everyone set and keep healthy boundaries. I
> have no doubt RMS was supportive. Like Paul suggested, a set of community
> agreements or a code of conduct or a contributor covenant or whatever is
> generally a good thing.
> >>
> >> But as for the reason why staff organized the union -- you may call it
> silly, but here is the testimony in their own words:
> >>
> >> " I think that many people do not know that the FSF is a union shop, or
> why.
> >>
> >> It is union to try to protect people from RMS.
> >>
> >> That's it. That's the reason.
> >>
> >> Knowing some of the story about how this came to be, it really informed
> my own thinking about what a union can do, and can't do.
> >>
> >> Unionizing provided protections and standard benefits (like berievement
> leave) for workers at FSF. It could not remove RMS from a position of
> power.
> >>
> >> I think the issue for workers at the time was that RMS held unchecked
> authority. It did not matter that there was a board of FSF: you could not
> tell RMS what to do.
> >>
> >> Using the power that the law provides to force negotiations on a
> written contract was the only option.
> >>
> >> That is just... Not normal. Right?"
> >>
> >> From
> >> https://twitter.com/_msw_/status/1374538607982088197
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:40 AM Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> That's silly.  The FSF was unionized with the encouragement and support
> of the FSF executives and board, including RMS, because unions are good, at
> least while the injustice of wage labor still exists.
> >>
> >>> he also caused harm to people and to the FSF organization and the free
> software movement.
> >>
> >> I regard that as a straight up lie because none of the derogatory
> things said about him have supported that conclusion.
> >>
> >> Once again,  you are free not to associate with the FSF or the
> movement, but pretending to be an ally while repeating slanders should not
> be tolerated here or anywhere.
> >>
> >> -t
> >>
> >> On 2021-03-26 10:32, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> >> Consider the fact that several FSF staff are going public for having
> organized and joined a union in order to protect themselves against the
> whims and wills of RMS, like if he suddenly decided to take away health
> insurance for everyone or other workplace dysfunction.
> >>
> >> Forming a union and finally talking about it isn't "whistleblowing"
> because obviously the staff and board chose to contain the problem rather
> than solve or eliminate it.
> >>
> >> However, I think we can agree that it's compelling nonetheless and adds
> to the view that while RMS contributed good things, he also caused harm to
> people and to the FSF organization and the free software movement.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:25 AM Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com>
> wrote: It's wrong to describe people as "whistle blowers" when they
> >> have not produced a complaint that stands up to scrutiny.
> >>
> >> -t
> >>
> >> On 2021-03-26 08:54, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> >>> I really appreciate seeing the perspective from Georgia. Thanks also
> >>> deeply to Deb Nicholson for engaging here in this space. Obviously,
> >>> these negative reports about RMS being presented *here* amounts to the
> >>> opposite of an echo-chamber. These voices are bring extremely valuable
> >>> perspective -- the sort we *lose* if we aren't careful to assure that
> >>> our
> >>> spaces are not only open to anyone but actually in *practice* have them
> >>> feel welcome and stay.
> >>>
> >>> The Free Software movement is weaker for every loss of perspective. We
> >>> have a duty to be not only gracious but appreciative of people like Deb
> >>> for engaging and staying with us despite the tensions.
> >>>
> >>> Georgia's line is exceptionally important: "...the fact that he faced
> >>> consequences for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the
> >>> decades of shitty behavior..."
> >
> >>>>
> >>>> These are not people who are dogpiling on hearsay or gotcha online
> >>>> statements or whatever else. Those anti-patterns do indeed happen, and
> >>>> they polluted and harmed the credibility of the recent open letter
> >>>> against RMS. But here we have people who fully understand the
> >>>> unfairness
> >>>> and yet can express from extensive personal experience the *actual*
> >>>> reasons why RMS's leadership is problematic.
> >>>>
> >>>> As someone who deeply and profoundly respects RMS for various
> reasons,
> >>>> I
> >>>> still don't just simply support his leadership role. I do not want him
> >>>> banished, I want him to learn and do better on his pain points. I
> don't
> >>>> want to be naive though, efforts in this direction have obviously been
> >>>> done for years and not been enough.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to continue to get RMS' insightful and pointed
> >>>> perspectives
> >>>> without having him lead the organization. I would like him to live in
> >>>> the zone where his genius most thrives and he contributes the most,
> and
> >>>> I suggest that the other roles he has had would be better filled by
> >>>> others.
> >>>>
> >>>> If we want a resilient movement, we need to be really open to engaging
> >>>> with complaints. An organization that defends the status quo against
> >>>> such critics is like the NSA attacking Ed Snowden and people
> >>>> insinuating
> >>>> that Snowden is working for Russia (similar to people talking about
> how
> >>>> Deb now works for the OSI and the OSI is connected to corporations).
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not suggesting deference to the outside unfair critics, the people
> >>>> who do indeed levy unfair attacks, mine quotes, spread FUD, etc. That
> >>>> stuff can be real, and we need to defend against it.
> >>>>
> >>>> But people like Deb are our whistleblowers, they are insiders who are
> >>>> bringing attention to serious issues. If we ignore or attack
> >>>> whistleblowers, we will fail to learn important lessons. This attitude
> >>>> can be fatal to a movement.
> >>>>
> >>>> In solidarity,
> >>>> Aaron Wolf
> >>>> (FSF member since 2014, co-founder of Snowdrift.coop)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >>>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >>>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> --
> Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3

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   Ali, I’m disappointed but not surprised you came to that conclusion yet
   again. The history seems to be the opposite: FSF staff organized a
   union because RMS was causing harm and dysfunction, and at best, RMS
   went along and accepted it as a net positive state of affairs.

   On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:00 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]hayati@riseup.net>
   wrote:

     So basically some people are claiming RMS helped to set up a union
     to protect people from himself and that's one reason not to support
     RMS.
     You guys are making me support him more.
     On March 26, 2021 5:51:57 PM UTC, Thomas Lord
     <[2]lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:
     >"It is union to try to protect people from RMS. / That's it. That's
     the
     >reason."
     >
     > As a matter of history that is simply and purely a lie.
     >
     >I don't see any of that kind of complaint, at this point, as
     anything
     >less or more than direct attempts to sabotage the FSF, the FSM, and
     GNU.
     >    It has no place here.  You are free not to associate with the
     FSF
     >and you should, it would seem, take that option.
     >
     >-t
     >
     >On 2021-03-26 10:46, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
     >
     >> A union certainly helped everyone set and keep healthy
     boundaries. I have no doubt RMS was supportive. Like Paul suggested,
     a set of community agreements or a code of conduct or a contributor
     covenant or whatever is generally a good thing.
     >>
     >> But as for the reason why staff organized the union -- you may
     call it silly, but here is the testimony in their own words:
     >>
     >> " I think that many people do not know that the FSF is a union
     shop, or why.
     >>
     >> It is union to try to protect people from RMS.
     >>
     >> That's it. That's the reason.
     >>
     >> Knowing some of the story about how this came to be, it really
     informed my own thinking about what a union can do, and can't do.
     >>
     >> Unionizing provided protections and standard benefits (like
     berievement leave) for workers at FSF. It could not remove RMS from
     a position of power.
     >>
     >> I think the issue for workers at the time was that RMS held
     unchecked authority. It did not matter that there was a board of
     FSF: you could not tell RMS what to do.
     >>
     >> Using the power that the law provides to force negotiations on a
     written contract was the only option.
     >>
     >> That is just... Not normal. Right?"
     >>
     >> From
     >> [3]https://twitter.com/_msw_/status/1374538607982088197
     >>
     >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:40 AM Thomas Lord
     <[4]lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:
     >>
     >> That's silly.  The FSF was unionized with the encouragement and
     support of the FSF executives and board, including RMS, because
     unions are good, at least while the injustice of wage labor still
     exists.
     >>
     >>> he also caused harm to people and to the FSF organization and
     the free software movement.
     >>
     >> I regard that as a straight up lie because none of the derogatory
     things said about him have supported that conclusion.
     >>
     >> Once again,  you are free not to associate with the FSF or the
     movement, but pretending to be an ally while repeating slanders
     should not be tolerated here or anywhere.
     >>
     >> -t
     >>
     >> On 2021-03-26 10:32, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
     >> Consider the fact that several FSF staff are going public for
     having organized and joined a union in order to protect themselves
     against the whims and wills of RMS, like if he suddenly decided to
     take away health insurance for everyone or other workplace
     dysfunction.
     >>
     >> Forming a union and finally talking about it isn't
     "whistleblowing" because obviously the staff and board chose to
     contain the problem rather than solve or eliminate it.
     >>
     >> However, I think we can agree that it's compelling nonetheless
     and adds to the view that while RMS contributed good things, he also
     caused harm to people and to the FSF organization and the free
     software movement.
     >>
     >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:25 AM Thomas Lord
     <[5]lord@basiscraft.com> wrote: It's wrong to describe people as
     "whistle blowers" when they
     >> have not produced a complaint that stands up to scrutiny.
     >>
     >> -t
     >>
     >> On 2021-03-26 08:54, Aaron Wolf wrote:
     >>> I really appreciate seeing the perspective from Georgia. Thanks
     also
     >>> deeply to Deb Nicholson for engaging here in this space.
     Obviously,
     >>> these negative reports about RMS being presented *here* amounts
     to the
     >>> opposite of an echo-chamber. These voices are bring extremely
     valuable
     >>> perspective -- the sort we *lose* if we aren't careful to assure
     that
     >>> our
     >>> spaces are not only open to anyone but actually in *practice*
     have them
     >>> feel welcome and stay.
     >>>
     >>> The Free Software movement is weaker for every loss of
     perspective. We
     >>> have a duty to be not only gracious but appreciative of people
     like Deb
     >>> for engaging and staying with us despite the tensions.
     >>>
     >>> Georgia's line is exceptionally important: "...the fact that he
     faced
     >>> consequences for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not
     the
     >>> decades of shitty behavior..."
     >
     >>>>
     >>>> These are not people who are dogpiling on hearsay or gotcha
     online
     >>>> statements or whatever else. Those anti-patterns do indeed
     happen, and
     >>>> they polluted and harmed the credibility of the recent open
     letter
     >>>> against RMS. But here we have people who fully understand the
     >>>> unfairness
     >>>> and yet can express from extensive personal experience the
     *actual*
     >>>> reasons why RMS's leadership is problematic.
     >>>>
     >>>> As someone who deeply and profoundly respects RMS for various
     reasons,
     >>>> I
     >>>> still don't just simply support his leadership role. I do not
     want him
     >>>> banished, I want him to learn and do better on his pain points.
     I don't
     >>>> want to be naive though, efforts in this direction have
     obviously been
     >>>> done for years and not been enough.
     >>>>
     >>>> I would like to continue to get RMS' insightful and pointed
     >>>> perspectives
     >>>> without having him lead the organization. I would like him to
     live in
     >>>> the zone where his genius most thrives and he contributes the
     most, and
     >>>> I suggest that the other roles he has had would be better
     filled by
     >>>> others.
     >>>>
     >>>> If we want a resilient movement, we need to be really open to
     engaging
     >>>> with complaints. An organization that defends the status quo
     against
     >>>> such critics is like the NSA attacking Ed Snowden and people
     >>>> insinuating
     >>>> that Snowden is working for Russia (similar to people talking
     about how
     >>>> Deb now works for the OSI and the OSI is connected to
     corporations).
     >>>>
     >>>> I'm not suggesting deference to the outside unfair critics, the
     people
     >>>> who do indeed levy unfair attacks, mine quotes, spread FUD,
     etc. That
     >>>> stuff can be real, and we need to defend against it.
     >>>>
     >>>> But people like Deb are our whistleblowers, they are insiders
     who are
     >>>> bringing attention to serious issues. If we ignore or attack
     >>>> whistleblowers, we will fail to learn important lessons. This
     attitude
     >>>> can be fatal to a movement.
     >>>>
     >>>> In solidarity,
     >>>> Aaron Wolf
     >>>> (FSF member since 2014, co-founder of Snowdrift.coop)
     >>>>
     >>>>
     >>>>
     >>>> _______________________________________________
     >>>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     >>>> [6]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >>>>
     [7]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s
     >>>
     >>> _______________________________________________
     >>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     >>> [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >>>
     [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s
     --
     Ali Reza Hayati ([10]https://alirezahayati.com)
     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3

References

   1. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   2. mailto:lord@basiscraft.com
   3. https://twitter.com/_msw_/status/1374538607982088197
   4. mailto:lord@basiscraft.com
   5. mailto:lord@basiscraft.com
   6. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   7. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
   8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  10. https://alirezahayati.com/

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