Re: Support RMS

[Danny Spitzberg <stationaery@gmail.com>]

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On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 12:29 AM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> * Danny Spitzberg <stationaery@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 09:48]:
> > > You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more
> > > free and some not.
> >
> > Jean, I mention the bare feet to suggest that my recollection of the
> story
> > is accurate, and the point about smell was to add specificity to how
> close
> > I was sitting. You assume too much.
>
> How do I who read your story, can know that you are proving to
> yourself, not to readers, how it is accurate. To prove to readers,
> please find some other person who remembers bare feet, than also that
> angrily talking, that we can understand objectively what was said and
> why.
>
> Can you finally find which session was it:
>
> https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/collection/libreplanet-2018-videos-and-slides/
>
> > > What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn what
> > > our planet really is.
>

I want to point out again how this comment comes across as presumptuous.


> >
> > I’ve traveled extensively, thank you. It has indeed been revealing. I
> > especially appreciate visiting with people who are kind and capable
> > leaders, who practice nonviolence and take a cooperative approach. Also,
> > it’s nice when people take a stance against free software being used by
> > armed forces and militaries... but that’s another topic.
>
> You have to travel to cultures not similar to yours, not like
> Western-style of cultures, try Greece, Sicily, Turkey, visit people in
> their homes, eat with them, understand differences.
>

And indeed I have, for many years, but thank you very much!


>
> Now by saying people who are kind and capable leaders, do you wish to
> imply that RMS is not kind and capable leader?
>

When it comes to interpersonal dealings, when it comes to FSF staff and
event organizers trying to do their jobs effectively... Yes, that's the
implication in a nutshell.


>
> On majority of public speeches RMS appears kind and that he is
> capable, there is result speaking for itself,


Dictators are known to very charismatic speeches, do they not?  :P


> we would not have GNU
> without RMS,


GNU is entirely besides the point. But, for an example that's somewhat of
an inverse of RMS and GNU, Alfred Nobel invented dynamite and was so
appalled that his creation become weaponized as a means of death and
destruction, he worked the rest of his life to make up for it. It seems the
diehard defenders of dear leader will say and do and point to anything --
including GNU or favorite lectures or whatever -- as support for their
position that people raising concerns should simply shut up and not do so
at all.


> we would not have Linux kernel without RMS


Well, fortunately we now have GNU and the Linux kernel, so maybe it's time
to address concerns and grievances with RMS and FSF, and move our movement
forward?


> speaking on
> University in Helsinki where Linus decided to license it under GPL, as
> it was proprietary in the first place; there would be neither FSF
> neither the Libreplanet. You can I hope, realize, how much is that all
> caused by RMS and his delegation of responsibilities to other people.
>
> That RMS is capable is out of question for me, you can speak about
> behavior, but there is no way to convince those having analytical
> skills that RMS is not capable.
>
> That RMS is not capable is a point that accusers wish to make, and
> that is the lie. But they cannot make it objectively.
>

Capable of what, speeches and GNU? That's not the point. We're talking
about leadership and collaborating in an organization and a movement.

Jean, by your logic ... RMS is capable of creating GNU. But you seem to
appreciate that there are a great many people with commitment and integrity
and capabilities of their own who do **not** find it functional to be in a
community that denies any possibility of dysfunction.


> Now in your stories of seeing leaders kind and capable, you did not
> tell us how much of first hand experience you have with those leaders
> in other countries as compared to RMS.
>
> As I know many leaders who are kind in public, but they are tigers in
> the activities behind, and not everybody like to work with
> tigers. Leaders accomplish so much more than other people, they focus
> and sacrifice much more than common people. They may behave quite
> inadequate to many around them who are by mistake with them.
>
> I say by mistake, because leaders technically, cannot work with
> everybody. They have to choose those who understand their purposes
> fully and can equally act with them. It is an information
> warfare.
>
> Why generals have their officers to work with them? Why generals don't
> interact directly with soldiers in hierarchy? This is because there
> are transitions between people, generals can possibly speak to
> officers around them, but cannot speak to soldiers, as their
> viewpoints cannot be easily explained, they have to be dissected.
>
> Those who work with RMS and fail to work truly on purpose are by
> mistake there, they have to be on some other place. Either do the work
> properly, or resign and do something else.
>
> > Also, it’s nice when people take a stance against free software
> > being used by armed forces and militaries... but that’s another
> > topic.
>
> It is not, it is quite good place for a topic.

And I find it good that
> you disclose this. This is type of disagreements that I have mentioned
> previously today where personal disagreements are influencing
> judgments about legal behavior of somebody else, this case RMS.
>
> IMHO, your personal political issues you have not expressed enough,
> and you have disagreements, but instead of expressing your personal
> issues, you attack the other person, in this case RMS. This may be not
> conscious on your part. I may be wrong, but that is what impression I
> get now.
>
> Maybe you don't see it, but you are on Libreplanet for what? Are you
> for free software or not? If you are, then why would be nice to take a
> stance against free software being used in armed forces and
> militaries? It is not other topic, it is very related. Maybe you never
> understood what is free software.
>
> It may be used to kill somebody, that is why it is free software. It
> may be used to run the machines that penetrate women vagina or
> automatically ejaculate penises, it may be used to open and close
> doors of slaves' cages trafficked for sex, it may be used to automate
> vehicles that deliver dead bodies into mass graves.
>
> While those are mostly immoral inhumane issues (except the machine)
> that is what free software is for.
>
> If you advocate in FSF or on this mailing list that it would be nice
> to forbid software to be used in some what you personally think
> immoral situations, that is where larger disagreement comes, those are
> larger way larger issues than what you said about RMS.
>

We can't eat or drink free software, so I suppose there has to come a point
where other matters enter into the equation, yes?

But a few years ago I brought up the question of free software and weapons
of war. People on a list said, "Hey, get politics out of free software! All
that matters are the four freedoms!!!!"

I believe that style of reactionary stance appears far too often in the
free software community for it to gain more members, to grow as a movement.

And that is why I was initially drawn to Libre Planet and FSF.


>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> https://rms-support-letter.github.io/
>
>

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   On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 12:29 AM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

     * Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationaery@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 09:48]:
     > > You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people
     are more
     > > free and some not.
     >
     > Jean, I mention the bare feet to suggest that my recollection of
     the story
     > is accurate, and the point about smell was to add specificity to
     how close
     > I was sitting. You assume too much.
     How do I who read your story, can know that you are proving to
     yourself, not to readers, how it is accurate. To prove to readers,
     please find some other person who remembers bare feet, than also
     that
     angrily talking, that we can understand objectively what was said
     and
     why.
     Can you finally find which session was it:
     [2]https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/collection/libreplane
     t-2018-videos-and-slides/
     > > What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn
     what
     > > our planet really is.

   I want to point out again how this comment comes across as
   presumptuous.

     >
     > I’ve traveled extensively, thank you. It has indeed been
     revealing. I
     > especially appreciate visiting with people who are kind and
     capable
     > leaders, who practice nonviolence and take a cooperative approach.
     Also,
     > it’s nice when people take a stance against free software being
     used by
     > armed forces and militaries... but that’s another topic.
     You have to travel to cultures not similar to yours, not like
     Western-style of cultures, try Greece, Sicily, Turkey, visit people
     in
     their homes, eat with them, understand differences.

   And indeed I have, for many years, but thank you very much!

     Now by saying people who are kind and capable leaders, do you wish
     to
     imply that RMS is not kind and capable leader?

   When it comes to interpersonal dealings, when it comes to FSF staff and
   event organizers trying to do their jobs effectively... Yes, that's the
   implication in a nutshell.

     On majority of public speeches RMS appears kind and that he is
     capable, there is result speaking for itself,

   Dictators are known to very charismatic speeches, do they not?  :P

     we would not have GNU
     without RMS,

   GNU is entirely besides the point. But, for an example that's somewhat
   of an inverse of RMS and GNU, Alfred Nobel invented dynamite and was so
   appalled that his creation become weaponized as a means of death and
   destruction, he worked the rest of his life to make up for it. It seems
   the diehard defenders of dear leader will say and do and point to
   anything -- including GNU or favorite lectures or whatever -- as
   support for their position that people raising concerns should simply
   shut up and not do so at all.

     we would not have Linux kernel without RMS

   Well, fortunately we now have GNU and the Linux kernel, so maybe it's
   time to address concerns and grievances with RMS and FSF, and move our
   movement forward?

     speaking on
     University in Helsinki where Linus decided to license it under GPL,
     as
     it was proprietary in the first place; there would be neither FSF
     neither the Libreplanet. You can I hope, realize, how much is that
     all
     caused by RMS and his delegation of responsibilities to other
     people.
     That RMS is capable is out of question for me, you can speak about
     behavior, but there is no way to convince those having analytical
     skills that RMS is not capable.
     That RMS is not capable is a point that accusers wish to make, and
     that is the lie. But they cannot make it objectively.

   Capable of what, speeches and GNU? That's not the point. We're talking
   about leadership and collaborating in an organization and a movement.

   Jean, by your logic ... RMS is capable of creating GNU. But you seem to
   appreciate that there are a great many people with commitment and
   integrity and capabilities of their own who do **not** find it
   functional to be in a community that denies any possibility of
   dysfunction.

     Now in your stories of seeing leaders kind and capable, you did not
     tell us how much of first hand experience you have with those
     leaders
     in other countries as compared to RMS.
     As I know many leaders who are kind in public, but they are tigers
     in
     the activities behind, and not everybody like to work with
     tigers. Leaders accomplish so much more than other people, they
     focus
     and sacrifice much more than common people. They may behave quite
     inadequate to many around them who are by mistake with them.
     I say by mistake, because leaders technically, cannot work with
     everybody. They have to choose those who understand their purposes
     fully and can equally act with them. It is an information
     warfare.
     Why generals have their officers to work with them? Why generals
     don't
     interact directly with soldiers in hierarchy? This is because there
     are transitions between people, generals can possibly speak to
     officers around them, but cannot speak to soldiers, as their
     viewpoints cannot be easily explained, they have to be dissected.
     Those who work with RMS and fail to work truly on purpose are by
     mistake there, they have to be on some other place. Either do the
     work
     properly, or resign and do something else.
     > Also, it’s nice when people take a stance against free software
     > being used by armed forces and militaries... but that’s another
     > topic.
     It is not, it is quite good place for a topic.

     And I find it good that
     you disclose this. This is type of disagreements that I have
     mentioned
     previously today where personal disagreements are influencing
     judgments about legal behavior of somebody else, this case RMS.
     IMHO, your personal political issues you have not expressed enough,
     and you have disagreements, but instead of expressing your personal
     issues, you attack the other person, in this case RMS. This may be
     not
     conscious on your part. I may be wrong, but that is what impression
     I
     get now.
     Maybe you don't see it, but you are on Libreplanet for what? Are you
     for free software or not? If you are, then why would be nice to take
     a
     stance against free software being used in armed forces and
     militaries? It is not other topic, it is very related. Maybe you
     never
     understood what is free software.
     It may be used to kill somebody, that is why it is free software. It
     may be used to run the machines that penetrate women vagina or
     automatically ejaculate penises, it may be used to open and close
     doors of slaves' cages trafficked for sex, it may be used to
     automate
     vehicles that deliver dead bodies into mass graves.
     While those are mostly immoral inhumane issues (except the machine)
     that is what free software is for.
     If you advocate in FSF or on this mailing list that it would be nice
     to forbid software to be used in some what you personally think
     immoral situations, that is where larger disagreement comes, those
     are
     larger way larger issues than what you said about RMS.

   We can't eat or drink free software, so I suppose there has to come a
   point where other matters enter into the equation, yes?
   But a few years ago I brought up the question of free software and
   weapons of war. People on a list said, "Hey, get politics out of free
   software! All that matters are the four freedoms!!!!"
   I believe that style of reactionary stance appears far too often in the
   free software community for it to gain more members, to grow as a
   movement.
   And that is why I was initially drawn to Libre Planet and FSF.

     --
     Jean
     Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
     [3]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
     Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
     [4]https://stallmansupport.org/
     [5]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/

References

   1. mailto:stationaery@gmail.com
   2. https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/collection/libreplanet-2018-videos-and-slides/
   3. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
   4. https://stallmansupport.org/
   5. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/

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