Re: Support RMS

[Danny Spitzberg <stationaery@gmail.com>]

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If someone else organizes something and you support it, that’s great. That
in no way means that the supporter was the leader.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:06 AM Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net> wrote:

> Weird.
>
> Danny:
> >> I have no doubt RMS was supportive.
>
> On March 26, 2021 6:02:52 PM UTC, Danny Spitzberg <stationaery@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Ali, I’m disappointed but not surprised you came to that conclusion yet
> >again. The history seems to be the opposite: FSF staff organized a union
> >because RMS was causing harm and dysfunction, and at best, RMS went along
> >and accepted it as a net positive state of affairs.
> >
> >On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:00 AM Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >> So basically some people are claiming RMS helped to set up a union to
> >> protect people from himself and that's one reason not to support RMS.
> >>
> >> You guys are making me support him more.
> >>
> >> On March 26, 2021 5:51:57 PM UTC, Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com>
> wrote:
> >> >"It is union to try to protect people from RMS. / That's it. That's the
> >> >reason."
> >> >
> >> > As a matter of history that is simply and purely a lie.
> >> >
> >> >I don't see any of that kind of complaint, at this point, as anything
> >> >less or more than direct attempts to sabotage the FSF, the FSM, and
> GNU.
> >> >    It has no place here.  You are free not to associate with the FSF
> >> >and you should, it would seem, take that option.
> >> >
> >> >-t
> >> >
> >> >On 2021-03-26 10:46, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> A union certainly helped everyone set and keep healthy boundaries. I
> >> have no doubt RMS was supportive. Like Paul suggested, a set of
> community
> >> agreements or a code of conduct or a contributor covenant or whatever is
> >> generally a good thing.
> >> >>
> >> >> But as for the reason why staff organized the union -- you may call
> it
> >> silly, but here is the testimony in their own words:
> >> >>
> >> >> " I think that many people do not know that the FSF is a union shop,
> or
> >> why.
> >> >>
> >> >> It is union to try to protect people from RMS.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's it. That's the reason.
> >> >>
> >> >> Knowing some of the story about how this came to be, it really
> informed
> >> my own thinking about what a union can do, and can't do.
> >> >>
> >> >> Unionizing provided protections and standard benefits (like
> berievement
> >> leave) for workers at FSF. It could not remove RMS from a position of
> >> power.
> >> >>
> >> >> I think the issue for workers at the time was that RMS held unchecked
> >> authority. It did not matter that there was a board of FSF: you could
> not
> >> tell RMS what to do.
> >> >>
> >> >> Using the power that the law provides to force negotiations on a
> >> written contract was the only option.
> >> >>
> >> >> That is just... Not normal. Right?"
> >> >>
> >> >> From
> >> >> https://twitter.com/_msw_/status/1374538607982088197
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:40 AM Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> That's silly.  The FSF was unionized with the encouragement and
> support
> >> of the FSF executives and board, including RMS, because unions are
> good, at
> >> least while the injustice of wage labor still exists.
> >> >>
> >> >>> he also caused harm to people and to the FSF organization and the
> free
> >> software movement.
> >> >>
> >> >> I regard that as a straight up lie because none of the derogatory
> >> things said about him have supported that conclusion.
> >> >>
> >> >> Once again,  you are free not to associate with the FSF or the
> >> movement, but pretending to be an ally while repeating slanders should
> not
> >> be tolerated here or anywhere.
> >> >>
> >> >> -t
> >> >>
> >> >> On 2021-03-26 10:32, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> >> >> Consider the fact that several FSF staff are going public for having
> >> organized and joined a union in order to protect themselves against the
> >> whims and wills of RMS, like if he suddenly decided to take away health
> >> insurance for everyone or other workplace dysfunction.
> >> >>
> >> >> Forming a union and finally talking about it isn't "whistleblowing"
> >> because obviously the staff and board chose to contain the problem
> rather
> >> than solve or eliminate it.
> >> >>
> >> >> However, I think we can agree that it's compelling nonetheless and
> adds
> >> to the view that while RMS contributed good things, he also caused harm
> to
> >> people and to the FSF organization and the free software movement.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:25 AM Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com>
> >> wrote: It's wrong to describe people as "whistle blowers" when they
> >> >> have not produced a complaint that stands up to scrutiny.
> >> >>
> >> >> -t
> >> >>
> >> >> On 2021-03-26 08:54, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> >> >>> I really appreciate seeing the perspective from Georgia. Thanks also
> >> >>> deeply to Deb Nicholson for engaging here in this space. Obviously,
> >> >>> these negative reports about RMS being presented *here* amounts to
> the
> >> >>> opposite of an echo-chamber. These voices are bring extremely
> valuable
> >> >>> perspective -- the sort we *lose* if we aren't careful to assure
> that
> >> >>> our
> >> >>> spaces are not only open to anyone but actually in *practice* have
> them
> >> >>> feel welcome and stay.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The Free Software movement is weaker for every loss of perspective.
> We
> >> >>> have a duty to be not only gracious but appreciative of people like
> Deb
> >> >>> for engaging and staying with us despite the tensions.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Georgia's line is exceptionally important: "...the fact that he
> faced
> >> >>> consequences for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the
> >> >>> decades of shitty behavior..."
> >> >
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> These are not people who are dogpiling on hearsay or gotcha online
> >> >>>> statements or whatever else. Those anti-patterns do indeed happen,
> and
> >> >>>> they polluted and harmed the credibility of the recent open letter
> >> >>>> against RMS. But here we have people who fully understand the
> >> >>>> unfairness
> >> >>>> and yet can express from extensive personal experience the *actual*
> >> >>>> reasons why RMS's leadership is problematic.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> As someone who deeply and profoundly respects RMS for various
> >> reasons,
> >> >>>> I
> >> >>>> still don't just simply support his leadership role. I do not want
> him
> >> >>>> banished, I want him to learn and do better on his pain points. I
> >> don't
> >> >>>> want to be naive though, efforts in this direction have obviously
> been
> >> >>>> done for years and not been enough.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I would like to continue to get RMS' insightful and pointed
> >> >>>> perspectives
> >> >>>> without having him lead the organization. I would like him to live
> in
> >> >>>> the zone where his genius most thrives and he contributes the most,
> >> and
> >> >>>> I suggest that the other roles he has had would be better filled by
> >> >>>> others.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> If we want a resilient movement, we need to be really open to
> engaging
> >> >>>> with complaints. An organization that defends the status quo
> against
> >> >>>> such critics is like the NSA attacking Ed Snowden and people
> >> >>>> insinuating
> >> >>>> that Snowden is working for Russia (similar to people talking about
> >> how
> >> >>>> Deb now works for the OSI and the OSI is connected to
> corporations).
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'm not suggesting deference to the outside unfair critics, the
> people
> >> >>>> who do indeed levy unfair attacks, mine quotes, spread FUD, etc.
> That
> >> >>>> stuff can be real, and we need to defend against it.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> But people like Deb are our whistleblowers, they are insiders who
> are
> >> >>>> bringing attention to serious issues. If we ignore or attack
> >> >>>> whistleblowers, we will fail to learn important lessons. This
> attitude
> >> >>>> can be fatal to a movement.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> In solidarity,
> >> >>>> Aaron Wolf
> >> >>>> (FSF member since 2014, co-founder of Snowdrift.coop)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >> >>>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >> >>>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> >> >>>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >> >>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >> >>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> >> --
> >> Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
> >> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> >> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
>
> --
> Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
>

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   If someone else organizes something and you support it, that’s great.
   That in no way means that the supporter was the leader.

   On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:06 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]hayati@riseup.net>
   wrote:

     Weird.
     Danny:
     >> I have no doubt RMS was supportive.
     On March 26, 2021 6:02:52 PM UTC, Danny Spitzberg
     <[2]stationaery@gmail.com> wrote:
     >Ali, I’m disappointed but not surprised you came to that conclusion
     yet
     >again. The history seems to be the opposite: FSF staff organized a
     union
     >because RMS was causing harm and dysfunction, and at best, RMS went
     along
     >and accepted it as a net positive state of affairs.
     >
     >On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:00 AM Ali Reza Hayati
     <[3]hayati@riseup.net> wrote:
     >
     >> So basically some people are claiming RMS helped to set up a
     union to
     >> protect people from himself and that's one reason not to support
     RMS.
     >>
     >> You guys are making me support him more.
     >>
     >> On March 26, 2021 5:51:57 PM UTC, Thomas Lord
     <[4]lord@basiscraft.com> wrote:
     >> >"It is union to try to protect people from RMS. / That's it.
     That's the
     >> >reason."
     >> >
     >> > As a matter of history that is simply and purely a lie.
     >> >
     >> >I don't see any of that kind of complaint, at this point, as
     anything
     >> >less or more than direct attempts to sabotage the FSF, the FSM,
     and GNU.
     >> >    It has no place here.  You are free not to associate with
     the FSF
     >> >and you should, it would seem, take that option.
     >> >
     >> >-t
     >> >
     >> >On 2021-03-26 10:46, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
     >> >
     >> >> A union certainly helped everyone set and keep healthy
     boundaries. I
     >> have no doubt RMS was supportive. Like Paul suggested, a set of
     community
     >> agreements or a code of conduct or a contributor covenant or
     whatever is
     >> generally a good thing.
     >> >>
     >> >> But as for the reason why staff organized the union -- you may
     call it
     >> silly, but here is the testimony in their own words:
     >> >>
     >> >> " I think that many people do not know that the FSF is a union
     shop, or
     >> why.
     >> >>
     >> >> It is union to try to protect people from RMS.
     >> >>
     >> >> That's it. That's the reason.
     >> >>
     >> >> Knowing some of the story about how this came to be, it really
     informed
     >> my own thinking about what a union can do, and can't do.
     >> >>
     >> >> Unionizing provided protections and standard benefits (like
     berievement
     >> leave) for workers at FSF. It could not remove RMS from a
     position of
     >> power.
     >> >>
     >> >> I think the issue for workers at the time was that RMS held
     unchecked
     >> authority. It did not matter that there was a board of FSF: you
     could not
     >> tell RMS what to do.
     >> >>
     >> >> Using the power that the law provides to force negotiations on
     a
     >> written contract was the only option.
     >> >>
     >> >> That is just... Not normal. Right?"
     >> >>
     >> >> From
     >> >> [5]https://twitter.com/_msw_/status/1374538607982088197
     >> >>
     >> >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:40 AM Thomas Lord
     <[6]lord@basiscraft.com>
     >> wrote:
     >> >>
     >> >> That's silly.  The FSF was unionized with the encouragement
     and support
     >> of the FSF executives and board, including RMS, because unions
     are good, at
     >> least while the injustice of wage labor still exists.
     >> >>
     >> >>> he also caused harm to people and to the FSF organization and
     the free
     >> software movement.
     >> >>
     >> >> I regard that as a straight up lie because none of the
     derogatory
     >> things said about him have supported that conclusion.
     >> >>
     >> >> Once again,  you are free not to associate with the FSF or the
     >> movement, but pretending to be an ally while repeating slanders
     should not
     >> be tolerated here or anywhere.
     >> >>
     >> >> -t
     >> >>
     >> >> On 2021-03-26 10:32, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
     >> >> Consider the fact that several FSF staff are going public for
     having
     >> organized and joined a union in order to protect themselves
     against the
     >> whims and wills of RMS, like if he suddenly decided to take away
     health
     >> insurance for everyone or other workplace dysfunction.
     >> >>
     >> >> Forming a union and finally talking about it isn't
     "whistleblowing"
     >> because obviously the staff and board chose to contain the
     problem rather
     >> than solve or eliminate it.
     >> >>
     >> >> However, I think we can agree that it's compelling nonetheless
     and adds
     >> to the view that while RMS contributed good things, he also
     caused harm to
     >> people and to the FSF organization and the free software
     movement.
     >> >>
     >> >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:25 AM Thomas Lord
     <[7]lord@basiscraft.com>
     >> wrote: It's wrong to describe people as "whistle blowers" when
     they
     >> >> have not produced a complaint that stands up to scrutiny.
     >> >>
     >> >> -t
     >> >>
     >> >> On 2021-03-26 08:54, Aaron Wolf wrote:
     >> >>> I really appreciate seeing the perspective from Georgia.
     Thanks also
     >> >>> deeply to Deb Nicholson for engaging here in this space.
     Obviously,
     >> >>> these negative reports about RMS being presented *here*
     amounts to the
     >> >>> opposite of an echo-chamber. These voices are bring extremely
     valuable
     >> >>> perspective -- the sort we *lose* if we aren't careful to
     assure that
     >> >>> our
     >> >>> spaces are not only open to anyone but actually in *practice*
     have them
     >> >>> feel welcome and stay.
     >> >>>
     >> >>> The Free Software movement is weaker for every loss of
     perspective. We
     >> >>> have a duty to be not only gracious but appreciative of
     people like Deb
     >> >>> for engaging and staying with us despite the tensions.
     >> >>>
     >> >>> Georgia's line is exceptionally important: "...the fact that
     he faced
     >> >>> consequences for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not
     the
     >> >>> decades of shitty behavior..."
     >> >
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>> These are not people who are dogpiling on hearsay or gotcha
     online
     >> >>>> statements or whatever else. Those anti-patterns do indeed
     happen, and
     >> >>>> they polluted and harmed the credibility of the recent open
     letter
     >> >>>> against RMS. But here we have people who fully understand
     the
     >> >>>> unfairness
     >> >>>> and yet can express from extensive personal experience the
     *actual*
     >> >>>> reasons why RMS's leadership is problematic.
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>> As someone who deeply and profoundly respects RMS for
     various
     >> reasons,
     >> >>>> I
     >> >>>> still don't just simply support his leadership role. I do
     not want him
     >> >>>> banished, I want him to learn and do better on his pain
     points. I
     >> don't
     >> >>>> want to be naive though, efforts in this direction have
     obviously been
     >> >>>> done for years and not been enough.
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>> I would like to continue to get RMS' insightful and pointed
     >> >>>> perspectives
     >> >>>> without having him lead the organization. I would like him
     to live in
     >> >>>> the zone where his genius most thrives and he contributes
     the most,
     >> and
     >> >>>> I suggest that the other roles he has had would be better
     filled by
     >> >>>> others.
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>> If we want a resilient movement, we need to be really open
     to engaging
     >> >>>> with complaints. An organization that defends the status quo
     against
     >> >>>> such critics is like the NSA attacking Ed Snowden and people
     >> >>>> insinuating
     >> >>>> that Snowden is working for Russia (similar to people
     talking about
     >> how
     >> >>>> Deb now works for the OSI and the OSI is connected to
     corporations).
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>> I'm not suggesting deference to the outside unfair critics,
     the people
     >> >>>> who do indeed levy unfair attacks, mine quotes, spread FUD,
     etc. That
     >> >>>> stuff can be real, and we need to defend against it.
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>> But people like Deb are our whistleblowers, they are
     insiders who are
     >> >>>> bringing attention to serious issues. If we ignore or attack
     >> >>>> whistleblowers, we will fail to learn important lessons.
     This attitude
     >> >>>> can be fatal to a movement.
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>> In solidarity,
     >> >>>> Aaron Wolf
     >> >>>> (FSF member since 2014, co-founder of Snowdrift.coop)
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>>
     >> >>>> _______________________________________________
     >> >>>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     >> >>>> [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >> >>>>
     [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus
     s
     >> >>>
     >> >>> _______________________________________________
     >> >>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     >> >>> [10]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >> >>>
     [11]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     >> --
     >> Ali Reza Hayati ([12]https://alirezahayati.com)
     >> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     >> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
     --
     Ali Reza Hayati ([13]https://alirezahayati.com)
     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3

References

   1. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   2. mailto:stationaery@gmail.com
   3. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   4. mailto:lord@basiscraft.com
   5. https://twitter.com/_msw_/status/1374538607982088197
   6. mailto:lord@basiscraft.com
   7. mailto:lord@basiscraft.com
   8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  10. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  11. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  12. https://alirezahayati.com/
  13. https://alirezahayati.com/

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