Re: Support RMS

[Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com>]

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Not sure why this needs to be corrected, but I've traveled "our planet"
quite a bit (before Covid) specifically to connect with free software
activists and developers.
Deb


On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 10:09 AM Danny Spitzberg <stationaery@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Also, about that incident in 2018 and the impact on the community at-large:
>
> I wrote to the FSF staffer sitting next to me, another former FSF staffer,
> and another person attending Libre Planet who I became friends with, and
> asked if they remember that incident with RMS yelling angrily and rushing
> the stage to grab the microphone and verbally attack the speaker for what
> seemed like very reasonable points about obstacles for free software. (I
> still can't imagine any reasonable person thinking it would be enjoyable or
> rewarding to give a talk that goes against what RMS thinks or feels!)
>
> One replied, "Sadly, yes."
>
> Another replied, “That was pretty much the moment where I decided not to
> go to another LibrePlanet again as long as he was involved.”
>
> Based on that and the many narratives shared already, including Deb’s
> mentions and Aaron’s and Paul’s and so many others on this list, and the
> hundreds on various letters... it seems entirely plausible RMS and his
> enablers have turned away hundreds or thousands of would-be allies from
> Libre Planet and many more from the free software movement.
>
> I may update you as the others reply.
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 3:49 AM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>
>> * Danny Spitzberg <stationaery@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 11:08]:
>> > > Can you finally find which session was it:
>> > >
>> > >
>> https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/collection/libreplanet-2018-videos-and-slides/
>> > >
>> > > > > What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn
>> what
>> > > > > our planet really is.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I want to point out again how this comment comes across as
>> > presumptuous.
>>
>> Of course, I make presumptuous comments, but you may observe that I
>> have asked you a lot of questions to make the assumption. Of course I
>> cannot know everything, especially for the reason that we are on
>> distance, and you don't explain details, or don't remember. I am not
>> technically capable to make absolutely correct statements, but I can
>> judge based on what you say. Explain yourself better. I said provide
>> the URL link. You then mention lack of sandals or whatever, but you
>> don't mention why... if I would be walking all day long like I do
>> sometimes 25 kilometers over 5-7 hills, I would maybe sit down on the
>> street what I did before few months, and do whatever is necessary to
>> help my body breath and relax. But that is not relevant to my ability
>> to take care for 20 people expecting that I solve their
>> salaries. Travel by vehicles was forbidden due to fascist COVID
>> measures. That is one example that I would like to see from your
>> side. But I don't, I cannot unless you tell me more details.
>>
>> > > Now by saying people who are kind and capable leaders, do you wish to
>> > > imply that RMS is not kind and capable leader?
>> >
>> > When it comes to interpersonal dealings, when it comes to FSF staff and
>> > event organizers trying to do their jobs effectively... Yes, that's the
>> > implication in a nutshell.
>>
>> As you are not only one speaking of interpersonal dealings, as other
>> people have also spoken, I don't see and don't put much weight on that
>> statement. You may not like or like your boss, that is clear, those
>> who stay are fine and moving purposes forward. There is no company in
>> the world where all of the people will like at all times their
>> seniors. There is no way to achieve such perfectionism.
>>
>> You are free to build your own organization and demonstrate yourself
>> as perfect person.
>>
>> > > On majority of public speeches RMS appears kind and that he is
>> > > capable, there is result speaking for itself,
>> >
>> > Dictators are known to very charismatic speeches, do they not?  :P
>>
>> I did not say charismatic, I don't find it charismatic, I find it
>> professoric, to understand what RMS speaks, I have to follow with
>> attention, not emotion. I don't find public audiences of RMS
>> emotionally moved, they are intellectually moved rather, as they
>> listen and understand new data. RMS made simple presentations that
>> will not draw attention to something else. Few jokes on the end and
>> donation things. Nothing much really. No charisma that I see.
>>
>> From Wordnet:
>>
>> * Overview of noun charisma
>>
>> The noun charisma has 1 sense (first 1 from tagged texts)
>> 1. (1) charisma, personal appeal, personal magnetism -- (a personal
>> attractiveness or interestingness that enables you to influence
>> others)
>>
>> > GNU is entirely besides the point. But, for an example that's somewhat
>> of
>> > an inverse of RMS and GNU, Alfred Nobel invented dynamite and was so
>> > appalled that his creation become weaponized as a means of death and
>> > destruction, he worked the rest of his life to make up for it.
>>
>> As in mining, we use dynamite to blast ores which you will use
>> then back in your cars to move around. I see invention of dynamite as
>> free software, it is not bad necessarily by itself, but some people
>> may use it for bad purposes.
>>
>> > It seems the diehard defenders of dear leader will say and do and
>> > point to anything -- including GNU or favorite lectures or whatever
>> > -- as support for their position that people raising concerns should
>> > simply shut up and not do so at all.
>>
>> Maybe yes, you should maybe stay calm when somebody speaks and help,
>> or otherwise, if you don't want to help, do something else.
>>
>> > > we would not have Linux kernel without RMS
>> >
>> > Well, fortunately we now have GNU and the Linux kernel, so maybe it's
>> time
>> > to address concerns and grievances with RMS and FSF, and move our
>> movement
>> > forward?
>>
>> Why don't you address your personal issues with RMS if you have some?
>>
>> Is anybody blocking you?
>>
>> Why you bring your personal issues here on public mailing list?
>>
>> Though I did not see any personal issue from your side, beside that
>> angrily speaking behind on somebody, even that I do not see as
>> personal. It is your viepoint. Dissecting every single reaction, for
>> heaven's sake that is waste of time.
>>
>> > > That RMS is not capable is a point that accusers wish to make, and
>> > > that is the lie. But they cannot make it objectively.
>> >
>> > Capable of what, speeches and GNU? That's not the point. We're talking
>> > about leadership and collaborating in an organization and a
>> > movement.
>>
>> I look at results, whatever he was doing, there are huge planetary
>> results impacting so many people, educating and helping people
>> understand freedom.
>>
>> What you are looking at are his approaches to women, maybe you have
>> issues there, maybe sandals, maybe interruption of speech. Please.
>>
>> Those are uncomparable things.
>>
>> > Jean, by your logic ... RMS is capable of creating GNU. But you seem to
>> > appreciate that there are a great many people with commitment and
>> integrity
>> > and capabilities of their own who do **not** find it functional to be
>> in a
>> > community that denies any possibility of dysfunction.
>>
>> Who is disallowing you to be in community? What you are actually
>> saying, is that you are not at all close to RMS like right now, but
>> you would like to be close to RMS, but without RMS. WTF!
>>
>> Nobody is telling you should not be part of community, so be.
>>
>> Who is, is anybody forcing you to interact with people you don't like
>> to interact? Don't interact, get your own life.
>>
>> Nobody is forsing you anything, but then please be kind and stop
>> imposing your view on others as not everybody shares your views.
>>
>> Yes, fine, that public character assassination letters was signed by
>> thousand, but also support RMS letter was signed
>> https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ by several more thousands.
>>
>> Not everybody supports such vague statements.
>>
>> And despite those accusations have been proven factually wrong here
>> https://stallmansupport.org/ not a single one of the accusers excused
>> themselves and said sorry.
>>
>> I would not like such people leading any organization.
>>
>> We already discussed RMS being able to recognize or grasp things and
>> say sorry.
>>
>> When did you say sorry for whatever nonsense? You as accusers just
>> find it right to behave how you wish and want, accuse others of doing
>> the same pattern of behavior you have.
>>
>> > But a few years ago I brought up the question of free software and
>> > weapons of war. People on a list said, "Hey, get politics out of
>> > free software! All that matters are the four freedoms!!!!"
>>
>> Exactly. As if you touch that, you touch Freedom 0 - to use the
>> software how one wish and wants.
>>
>> Which also implies you never accepted Freedom 0 and this is not place
>> to present your ideas on changing Freedom 0.
>>
>> > I believe that style of reactionary stance appears far too often in the
>> > free software community for it to gain more members, to grow as a
>> movement.
>> >
>> > And that is why I was initially drawn to Libre Planet and FSF.
>>
>> Welcome, not everything is how you wish and want, research more.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jean
>>
>> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>>
>> Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
>> https://stallmansupport.org/
>> https://rms-support-letter.github.io/
>>
>>

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   Not sure why this needs to be corrected, but I've traveled "our planet"
   quite a bit (before Covid) specifically to connect with free software
   activists and developers.
   Deb

   On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 10:09 AM Danny Spitzberg
   <[1]stationaery@gmail.com> wrote:

   Also, about that incident in 2018 and the impact on the community
   at-large:

   I wrote to the FSF staffer sitting next to me, another former FSF
   staffer, and another person attending Libre Planet who I became friends
   with, and asked if they remember that incident with RMS yelling angrily
   and rushing the stage to grab the microphone and verbally attack the
   speaker for what seemed like very reasonable points about obstacles for
   free software. (I still can't imagine any reasonable person thinking it
   would be enjoyable or rewarding to give a talk that goes against what
   RMS thinks or feels!)
   One replied, "Sadly, yes."
   Another replied, “That was pretty much the moment where I decided not
   to go to another LibrePlanet again as long as he was involved.”
   Based on that and the many narratives shared already, including Deb’s
   mentions and Aaron’s and Paul’s and so many others on this list, and
   the hundreds on various letters... it seems entirely plausible RMS and
   his enablers have turned away hundreds or thousands of would-be allies
   from Libre Planet and many more from the free software movement.
   I may update you as the others reply.

   On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 3:49 AM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

     * Danny Spitzberg <[2]stationaery@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 11:08]:
     > > Can you finally find which session was it:
     > >
     > >
     [3]https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/collection/libreplane
     t-2018-videos-and-slides/
     > >
     > > > > What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and
     learn what
     > > > > our planet really is.
     > >
     >
     > I want to point out again how this comment comes across as
     > presumptuous.
     Of course, I make presumptuous comments, but you may observe that I
     have asked you a lot of questions to make the assumption. Of course
     I
     cannot know everything, especially for the reason that we are on
     distance, and you don't explain details, or don't remember. I am not
     technically capable to make absolutely correct statements, but I can
     judge based on what you say. Explain yourself better. I said provide
     the URL link. You then mention lack of sandals or whatever, but you
     don't mention why... if I would be walking all day long like I do
     sometimes 25 kilometers over 5-7 hills, I would maybe sit down on
     the
     street what I did before few months, and do whatever is necessary to
     help my body breath and relax. But that is not relevant to my
     ability
     to take care for 20 people expecting that I solve their
     salaries. Travel by vehicles was forbidden due to fascist COVID
     measures. That is one example that I would like to see from your
     side. But I don't, I cannot unless you tell me more details.
     > > Now by saying people who are kind and capable leaders, do you
     wish to
     > > imply that RMS is not kind and capable leader?
     >
     > When it comes to interpersonal dealings, when it comes to FSF
     staff and
     > event organizers trying to do their jobs effectively... Yes,
     that's the
     > implication in a nutshell.
     As you are not only one speaking of interpersonal dealings, as other
     people have also spoken, I don't see and don't put much weight on
     that
     statement. You may not like or like your boss, that is clear, those
     who stay are fine and moving purposes forward. There is no company
     in
     the world where all of the people will like at all times their
     seniors. There is no way to achieve such perfectionism.
     You are free to build your own organization and demonstrate yourself
     as perfect person.
     > > On majority of public speeches RMS appears kind and that he is
     > > capable, there is result speaking for itself,
     >
     > Dictators are known to very charismatic speeches, do they not?  :P
     I did not say charismatic, I don't find it charismatic, I find it
     professoric, to understand what RMS speaks, I have to follow with
     attention, not emotion. I don't find public audiences of RMS
     emotionally moved, they are intellectually moved rather, as they
     listen and understand new data. RMS made simple presentations that
     will not draw attention to something else. Few jokes on the end and
     donation things. Nothing much really. No charisma that I see.
     From Wordnet:
     * Overview of noun charisma
     The noun charisma has 1 sense (first 1 from tagged texts)
     1. (1) charisma, personal appeal, personal magnetism -- (a personal
     attractiveness or interestingness that enables you to influence
     others)
     > GNU is entirely besides the point. But, for an example that's
     somewhat of
     > an inverse of RMS and GNU, Alfred Nobel invented dynamite and was
     so
     > appalled that his creation become weaponized as a means of death
     and
     > destruction, he worked the rest of his life to make up for it.
     As in mining, we use dynamite to blast ores which you will use
     then back in your cars to move around. I see invention of dynamite
     as
     free software, it is not bad necessarily by itself, but some people
     may use it for bad purposes.
     > It seems the diehard defenders of dear leader will say and do and
     > point to anything -- including GNU or favorite lectures or
     whatever
     > -- as support for their position that people raising concerns
     should
     > simply shut up and not do so at all.
     Maybe yes, you should maybe stay calm when somebody speaks and help,
     or otherwise, if you don't want to help, do something else.
     > > we would not have Linux kernel without RMS
     >
     > Well, fortunately we now have GNU and the Linux kernel, so maybe
     it's time
     > to address concerns and grievances with RMS and FSF, and move our
     movement
     > forward?
     Why don't you address your personal issues with RMS if you have
     some?
     Is anybody blocking you?
     Why you bring your personal issues here on public mailing list?
     Though I did not see any personal issue from your side, beside that
     angrily speaking behind on somebody, even that I do not see as
     personal. It is your viepoint. Dissecting every single reaction, for
     heaven's sake that is waste of time.
     > > That RMS is not capable is a point that accusers wish to make,
     and
     > > that is the lie. But they cannot make it objectively.
     >
     > Capable of what, speeches and GNU? That's not the point. We're
     talking
     > about leadership and collaborating in an organization and a
     > movement.
     I look at results, whatever he was doing, there are huge planetary
     results impacting so many people, educating and helping people
     understand freedom.
     What you are looking at are his approaches to women, maybe you have
     issues there, maybe sandals, maybe interruption of speech. Please.
     Those are uncomparable things.
     > Jean, by your logic ... RMS is capable of creating GNU. But you
     seem to
     > appreciate that there are a great many people with commitment and
     integrity
     > and capabilities of their own who do **not** find it functional to
     be in a
     > community that denies any possibility of dysfunction.
     Who is disallowing you to be in community? What you are actually
     saying, is that you are not at all close to RMS like right now, but
     you would like to be close to RMS, but without RMS. WTF!
     Nobody is telling you should not be part of community, so be.
     Who is, is anybody forcing you to interact with people you don't
     like
     to interact? Don't interact, get your own life.
     Nobody is forsing you anything, but then please be kind and stop
     imposing your view on others as not everybody shares your views.
     Yes, fine, that public character assassination letters was signed by
     thousand, but also support RMS letter was signed
     [4]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ by several more thousands.
     Not everybody supports such vague statements.
     And despite those accusations have been proven factually wrong here
     [5]https://stallmansupport.org/ not a single one of the accusers
     excused
     themselves and said sorry.
     I would not like such people leading any organization.
     We already discussed RMS being able to recognize or grasp things and
     say sorry.
     When did you say sorry for whatever nonsense? You as accusers just
     find it right to behave how you wish and want, accuse others of
     doing
     the same pattern of behavior you have.
     > But a few years ago I brought up the question of free software and
     > weapons of war. People on a list said, "Hey, get politics out of
     > free software! All that matters are the four freedoms!!!!"
     Exactly. As if you touch that, you touch Freedom 0 - to use the
     software how one wish and wants.
     Which also implies you never accepted Freedom 0 and this is not
     place
     to present your ideas on changing Freedom 0.
     > I believe that style of reactionary stance appears far too often
     in the
     > free software community for it to gain more members, to grow as a
     movement.
     >
     > And that is why I was initially drawn to Libre Planet and FSF.
     Welcome, not everything is how you wish and want, research more.
     --
     Jean
     Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
     [6]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
     Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
     [7]https://stallmansupport.org/
     [8]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/

References

   1. mailto:stationaery@gmail.com
   2. mailto:stationaery@gmail.com
   3. https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/collection/libreplanet-2018-videos-and-slides/
   4. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/
   5. https://stallmansupport.org/
   6. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
   7. https://stallmansupport.org/
   8. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/

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