Re: Support RMS

[Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com>]

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Hi,
I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who has left most
of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the extremely
toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I stayed on the
LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate seeing the
occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support of free
software.

RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm one of the people
who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance against sexism
in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens, and to re-consider
his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of transgender people in
our communities.

I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to choose free
software for everything. There is no way for free software to win if
hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after they get sick of
the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our communities. People take
their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over again that he is
not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a movement that grows,
instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then RMS shouldn't lead.

Sincerely,
Deb Nicholson

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net> wrote:

> Hello Danny.
>
> I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything wrong
> here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've seen gay
> people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, after all,
> that's just jokes and humor.
>
> About being offended, again that's not a problem with RMS. Maybe he
> hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice person
> to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up person. Every
> person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many people in my
> life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
>
> If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion and
> respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's again
> respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.
>
> However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've signed
> is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to defending
> truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
>
> I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because defending
> truth is important.
>
> Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's just your
> personal conflict/disappointment.
>
> On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> > I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia shares
> > several years of experience working at FSF and directly with RMS. Ali,
> > their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software movement
> > needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
> > https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
> > <https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
> > “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a while. I
> > recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED John Sullivan
> > about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s needed to be
> > removed from gnu.org <http://gnu.org>. rms didn't get why it was
> harmful.
> >
> > Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a technical manual? He
> > threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people (who respected
> > him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that wasn't cool.
> >
> > The thing that randos who have never had to actually work with rms don't
> > understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried to help
> > him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at Libreplanet as if
> > it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'
> >
> > Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been spent advocating
> > for free to software and building the inclusive, impractical community
> > so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over and over.
> >
> > This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free software community
> > is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to work with a bunch
> > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, organizing Libreplanet
> > was my job & introduced me to amazing people from across the world
> >
> > free software has the ability to do so much good, but there's an ugly
> > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced consequences
> > for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the decades of shitty
> > behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his return
> >
> > It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because we don't focus
> > on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by assholes sealioning
> > for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER enough) it's
> > possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now. DON'T LET THEM
> >
> > My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I made a pull
> > request in order to sign on to this letter.
> > https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ <https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
> >
> > One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this. They didn't ask
> > for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' apparently impromptu
> > announcement, they labor for the organization and for the community
> > every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive director.”
> >
> > The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500 individuals,
> > including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net
> > <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
> >
> >     Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board of directors.
> Now,
> >     some organizations and people are attacking FSF and RMS and are
> asking
> >     them to resign.
> >
> >     Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to resist this
> >     pressure and continue work for the good of the software libre
> movement.
> >
> >     Sending message to info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org> is a way of
> >     showing your support. They
> >     are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step down from our
> >     principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
> >
> >     On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> >      > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of support for RMS.
> >      >
> >      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
> >     <hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>
> >      > <mailto:hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >     People,
> >      >
> >      >     FSF board has received lots of messages today and there's no
> >     need to
> >      >     add
> >      >     to the pile. Please send your support for RMS to info@fsf.org
> >     <mailto:info@fsf.org>
> >      >     <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>> and ask
> >      >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
> >      >
> >      >     Software libre is a matter of justice. If we can learn one
> >     thing from
> >      >     the whole movement is to keep our principals and fight for
> >     justice. FSF
> >      >     made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not to defend RMS
> >     against
> >      >     false
> >      >     accusations. Today, we can make that right by supporting a
> >     wonderful
> >      >     honorable man.
> >      >
> >      >     Show your support by sending messages to info@fsf.org
> >     <mailto:info@fsf.org>
> >      >     <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>>. Do it now, later
> >      >     may be late.
> >      >
> >      >     Best.
> >      >     --
> >      >     Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com
> >     <https://alirezahayati.com> <https://alirezahayati.com
> >     <https://alirezahayati.com>>)
> >      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> >      >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
> >      >
> >      >     _______________________________________________
> >      >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >      > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
> >      >     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> >     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
> >      >
> >     https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> >     <https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>
> >      >
> >       <
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss <
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>>
> >      >
> >
> >     --
> >     Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com <
> https://alirezahayati.com>)
> >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
> >
>
> --
> Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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   Hi,
   I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who has left
   most of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the
   extremely toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I
   stayed on the LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate
   seeing the occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support
   of free software.
   RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm one of the
   people who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance
   against sexism in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens,
   and to re-consider his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of
   transgender people in our communities.
   I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to choose free
   software for everything. There is no way for free software to win if
   hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after they get
   sick of the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our communities.
   People take their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over
   again that he is not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a
   movement that grows, instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then
   RMS shouldn't lead.
   Sincerely,
   Deb Nicholson

   On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]hayati@riseup.net>
   wrote:

     Hello Danny.
     I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything wrong
     here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've seen
     gay
     people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, after
     all,
     that's just jokes and humor.
     About being offended, again that's not a problem with RMS. Maybe he
     hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice
     person
     to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up person.
     Every
     person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many people
     in my
     life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
     If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion and
     respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's again
     respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.
     However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've
     signed
     is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to defending
     truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
     I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because defending
     truth is important.
     Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's just
     your
     personal conflict/disappointment.
     On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
     > I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia shares
     > several years of experience working at FSF and directly with RMS.
     Ali,
     > their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software
     movement
     > needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
     > [2]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
     > <[3]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
     > “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a
     while. I
     > recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED John
     Sullivan
     > about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s needed to be
     > removed from [4]gnu.org <[5]http://gnu.org>. rms didn't get why it
     was harmful.
     >
     > Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a technical
     manual? He
     > threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people (who
     respected
     > him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that wasn't
     cool.
     >
     > The thing that randos who have never had to actually work with rms
     don't
     > understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried to
     help
     > him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at Libreplanet
     as if
     > it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'
     >
     > Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been spent
     advocating
     > for free to software and building the inclusive, impractical
     community
     > so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over and
     over.
     >
     > This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free software
     community
     > is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to work with a
     bunch
     > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, organizing
     Libreplanet
     > was my job & introduced me to amazing people from across the world
     >
     > free software has the ability to do so much good, but there's an
     ugly
     > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced
     consequences
     > for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the decades of
     shitty
     > behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his return
     >
     > It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because we don't
     focus
     > on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by assholes
     sealioning
     > for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER enough)
     it's
     > possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now. DON'T LET
     THEM
     >
     > My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I made a
     pull
     > request in order to sign on to this letter.
     > [6]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
     <[7]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
     >
     > One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this. They didn't
     ask
     > for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' apparently
     impromptu
     > announcement, they labor for the organization and for the
     community
     > every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive director.”
     >
     > The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500 individuals,
     > including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
     >
     > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati
     <[8]hayati@riseup.net
     > <mailto:[9]hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
     >
     >     Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board of
     directors. Now,
     >     some organizations and people are attacking FSF and RMS and
     are asking
     >     them to resign.
     >
     >     Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to resist
     this
     >     pressure and continue work for the good of the software libre
     movement.
     >
     >     Sending message to [10]info@fsf.org <mailto:[11]info@fsf.org>
     is a way of
     >     showing your support. They
     >     are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step down from
     our
     >     principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
     >
     >     On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
     >      > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of support for
     RMS.
     >      >
     >      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
     >     <[12]hayati@riseup.net <mailto:[13]hayati@riseup.net>
     >      > <mailto:[14]hayati@riseup.net
     <mailto:[15]hayati@riseup.net>>> wrote:
     >      >
     >      >     People,
     >      >
     >      >     FSF board has received lots of messages today and
     there's no
     >     need to
     >      >     add
     >      >     to the pile. Please send your support for RMS to
     [16]info@fsf.org
     >     <mailto:[17]info@fsf.org>
     >      >     <mailto:[18]info@fsf.org <mailto:[19]info@fsf.org>> and
     ask
     >      >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
     >      >
     >      >     Software libre is a matter of justice. If we can learn
     one
     >     thing from
     >      >     the whole movement is to keep our principals and fight
     for
     >     justice. FSF
     >      >     made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not to defend
     RMS
     >     against
     >      >     false
     >      >     accusations. Today, we can make that right by
     supporting a
     >     wonderful
     >      >     honorable man.
     >      >
     >      >     Show your support by sending messages to
     [20]info@fsf.org
     >     <mailto:[21]info@fsf.org>
     >      >     <mailto:[22]info@fsf.org <mailto:[23]info@fsf.org>>. Do
     it now, later
     >      >     may be late.
     >      >
     >      >     Best.
     >      >     --
     >      >     Ali Reza Hayati ([24]https://alirezahayati.com
     >     <[25]https://alirezahayati.com> <[26]https://alirezahayati.com
     >     <[27]https://alirezahayati.com>>)
     >      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     >      >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
     >      >
     >      >     _______________________________________________
     >      >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     >      > [28]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >     <mailto:[29]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
     >      >     <mailto:[30]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >     <mailto:[31]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
     >      >
     >
     [32]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     >
     <[33]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
     uss>
     >      >
     >
     <[34]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
     uss
     <[35]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
     uss>>
     >      >
     >
     >     --
     >     Ali Reza Hayati ([36]https://alirezahayati.com
     <[37]https://alirezahayati.com>)
     >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
     >
     --
     Ali Reza Hayati ([38]https://alirezahayati.com)
     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [39]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [40]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss

References

   1. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   2. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
   3. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
   4. http://gnu.org/
   5. http://gnu.org/
   6. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
   7. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
   8. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   9. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  10. mailto:info@fsf.org
  11. mailto:info@fsf.org
  12. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  13. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  14. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  15. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  16. mailto:info@fsf.org
  17. mailto:info@fsf.org
  18. mailto:info@fsf.org
  19. mailto:info@fsf.org
  20. mailto:info@fsf.org
  21. mailto:info@fsf.org
  22. mailto:info@fsf.org
  23. mailto:info@fsf.org
  24. https://alirezahayati.com/
  25. https://alirezahayati.com/
  26. https://alirezahayati.com/
  27. https://alirezahayati.com/
  28. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  29. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  30. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  31. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  32. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  33. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  34. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  35. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  36. https://alirezahayati.com/
  37. https://alirezahayati.com/
  38. https://alirezahayati.com/
  39. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  40. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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