Re: Support RMS

[Thomas Lord <lord@basiscraft.com>]

I'll be blunt as well:

This list was not created for for endless discussion of RMS' or anyone 
else's alleged virtues or vices.  I haven't engaged with you on those 
questions because they don't belong here.

-t


On 2021-03-26 22:47, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> Thomas, I'll be blunt and clear here: You seem to believe that I oppose
> RMS and just agree with the people who want him ousted. You are wrong.
> 
> You seem not to be recognizing that this community includes people who
> are neither on the side of defend-RMS-and-reject-all-attacks nor the
> side of RMS-is-an-awful-bigot-who-must-go.
> 
> You have not engaged with anything I'm saying, you seem to treat it all
> as if I'm trying to use crafty language to argue for what you see as 
> the
> opposing viewpoint. You haven't bothered to check how much we actually
> even disagree.
> 
> In all the replies in which you suggest that things are *only* absurd 
> or
> *only* black-and-white, you are simply denying the messy complex 
> reality.
> 
> Ask everyone else. I guarantee you will easily find people who you
> recognize as on *your* side of the argument who can also tell you flat
> out that what I'm saying here is constructive, nuanced, and helpful.
> 
> Not everyone who supports RMS is in quite as defensive a state as you
> currently appear to be.
> 
> If you want to ignore me, you can do so. Or if you want to understand 
> my
> positions and engage respectfully, we can go in that direction.
> 
> 
> On 2021-03-26 7:50 p.m., Thomas Lord wrote:
>> I think I have made it quite clear, Aaron, that I don't believe you 
>> are
>> doing more here than wasting still more of everyone's time, rehashing
>> the same old assertions on a list not established for that purpose,
>> picking at scabs.   I can't tell whether you are malicious or just
>> confused but either way....
>> 
>> If you feel as strongly as you seem to say you do, perhaps it is time 
>> to
>> disassociate yourself from the FSF and GNU.   Since I doubt you wish 
>> to
>> do either, please accept that endless re-litigation serves nobody here
>> in this specific context.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -t
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2021-03-26 19:29, Aaron Wolf wrote:
>>> Thomas, you are using the fact that *some* accusations have not held 
>>> up
>>> to scrutiny in order to conclude that all accusations have been
>>> scrutinized and not held up.
>>> 
>>> I wonder if you would be more gracious if the accusers did more to
>>> emphasize both the unfair aspects of some accusations and emphasized 
>>> the
>>> positive aspects of RMS. But I'm not optimistic. You don't seem at 
>>> all
>>> interested in considering whether there are really valid concerns 
>>> here.
>>> 
>>> FWIW, I acknowledge how hard it is, especially at a distance, to make
>>> sense of claims that RMS is sexist (and worse) when he has for years
>>> gone out of his way to express support for feminist political causes 
>>> in
>>> terms of highlighting news articles or talking about principles.
>>> 
>>> Accepting for this comment that his behavior really has been what Deb
>>> and others describe in their experiences (I have done the scrutiny 
>>> and
>>> all their concerns have held up as far as I could scrutinize)… I 
>>> don't
>>> think RMS is a hypocrite as much as he is oblivious. I mean, I 
>>> suspect
>>> maybe in some fundamental way, he doesn't quite *get* the issues with
>>> his own behavior.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps in his mind, none of the ways he flirted with women or made
>>> jokes etc., maybe none of that fit into the concepts that he 
>>> recognized
>>> as sexist, and his own honest awareness of sexism and its problems in
>>> society and policy just seemed distinct. Put simply: he doesn't
>>> recognize his problems because he doesn't do the *type* of sexist
>>> behavior/talking that he recognizes as bad and criticizes in others 
>>> (if
>>> he did *that*, then it would be hypocritical).
>>> 
>>> I happen also to basically agree with the sentiment that RMS is 
>>> widely
>>> misunderstood, and the style of accusation we commonly see is a
>>> non-understanding one. But that's not enough to disregard the ways 
>>> his
>>> behavior has caused harm to the movement — and I'm not talking about 
>>> the
>>> unfair out-of-context gotcha stuff, I'm talking about the pattern of
>>> awkward behavior the is both more subtle and persistent, the stuff 
>>> that
>>> has discouraged many people over the years, people who dealt with him
>>> day-to-day.
>>> 
>>> Thomas, at least in principle, if you had the opportunity to have a
>>> private discussion with a man who worked closely with RMS for years 
>>> and
>>> who could explain his history of issues while acknowledging RMS's 
>>> genius
>>> and significance, would you be open to learning from that? Or would 
>>> you
>>> just reject the opportunity because you are already sure you know all
>>> you need to know?
>>> 
>>> Although I would like to believe that I'd always be open-minded as a
>>> personal habit, it happens that what got me to recognize the issues 
>>> more
>>> fully is precisely that I have had the opportunity to know and talk 
>>> to
>>> people close to RMS. My *inclination* otherwise is to be skeptical of
>>> the critics because I very much recognize RMS's good intentions and
>>> fundamentally strong ethical foundations in his worldview. I still 
>>> see
>>> those things today, even though I don't deny the problem behaviors.
>>> 
>>> On 2021-03-26 5:16 p.m., Thomas Lord wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> This has gotten beyond absurd.  For years, this list has not been 
>>>> used
>>>> discuss developments, share projects, or even coordionate 
>>>> transportation
>>>> and lodging.  It has been dominated by a few people making the same
>>>> accusations again and again, and having others push back.   The
>>>> accusations have never held up to scrutiny, even though we can 
>>>> assume
>>>> some people make them with full sincerity.
>>>> 
>>>> Enough already.
>>>> 
>>>> -t
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 2021-03-26 16:03, Deb Nicholson wrote:
>>>>> Well, it's disappointing but not surprising that a call for 
>>>>> improving
>>>>>    the way people are treated within the free software movement is
>>>>> being
>>>>>    seen by some on this list as "hateful" or somehow in "opposition 
>>>>> to
>>>>>    free software." I honestly don't see how creating a haven for 
>>>>> sexist
>>>>>    behavior and disrespect can lead to the movement's growth, but 
>>>>> maybe
>>>>>    I'm mistaken in thinking that we all want that growth.
>>>>>    I am grateful to those who are interested in working towards an
>>>>>    inclusive and non-toxic future for the free software movement. 
>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>    I'll get to work with you all someday on one of the projects 
>>>>> that is
>>>>>    interested in growing the free software movement.
>>>>>    Best,
>>>>>    Deb
>>>>> 
>>>>>    On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 5:03 PM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>      * Deb Nicholson <[1]deb@eximiousproductions.com> [2021-03-26
>>>>> 16:52]:
>>>>>      >    An interesting thing about men who harass women is that 
>>>>> they
>>>>>      usually
>>>>>      >    don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that 
>>>>> they
>>>>>      "don't
>>>>>      >    believe in harassment" are the last people to find out 
>>>>> it's
>>>>>      happening,
>>>>>      >    because no one feels safe telling them.
>>>>>      Generalization without end.
>>>>>      Why are you sending accusations to this mailing list? How is 
>>>>> this
>>>>>      mailing list to defend your rights? Or is your only purpose to
>>>>>      divide
>>>>>      and bring more hate here?
>>>>> 
>>>>> References
>>>>> 
>>>>>    1. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
>>>>> 
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