Re: Support RMS

[Yuchen Pei <hi@ypei.me>]

It is one thing to raise legitimate concerns in a legitimate way, 
but a different matter to support a campaign based on blatent lies 
and mischaracterisations, that stifles discussions (as the "open 
letter" does not allow any constructive criticism) and aims at 
character assassination.

Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com> writes:

> Hi,
> I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who 
> has left most
> of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the 
> extremely
> toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I stayed 
> on the
> LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate seeing 
> the
> occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support of 
> free
> software.
>
> RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm one of 
> the people
> who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance 
> against sexism
> in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens, and to 
> re-consider
> his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of transgender 
> people in
> our communities.
>
> I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to 
> choose free
> software for everything. There is no way for free software to 
> win if
> hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after they 
> get sick of
> the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our 
> communities. People take
> their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over again 
> that he is
> not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a movement 
> that grows,
> instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then RMS shouldn't 
> lead.
>
> Sincerely,
> Deb Nicholson
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati 
> <hayati@riseup.net> wrote:
>
>> Hello Danny.
>>
>> I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything 
>> wrong
>> here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've 
>> seen gay
>> people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, 
>> after all,
>> that's just jokes and humor.
>>
>> About being offended, again that's not a problem with 
>> RMS. Maybe he
>> hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice 
>> person
>> to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up 
>> person. Every
>> person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many 
>> people in my
>> life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
>>
>> If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion 
>> and
>> respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's 
>> again
>> respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.
>>
>> However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've 
>> signed
>> is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to 
>> defending
>> truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
>>
>> I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because 
>> defending
>> truth is important.
>>
>> Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's 
>> just your
>> personal conflict/disappointment.
>>
>> On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>> > I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia 
>> > shares
>> > several years of experience working at FSF and directly with 
>> > RMS. Ali,
>> > their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software 
>> > movement
>> > needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
>> > https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
>> > <https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
>> > “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a 
>> > while. I
>> > recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED 
>> > John Sullivan
>> > about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s needed 
>> > to be
>> > removed from gnu.org <http://gnu.org>. rms didn't get why it 
>> > was
>> harmful.
>> >
>> > Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a technical 
>> > manual? He
>> > threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people 
>> > (who respected
>> > him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that wasn't 
>> > cool.
>> >
>> > The thing that randos who have never had to actually work 
>> > with rms don't
>> > understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried 
>> > to help
>> > him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at 
>> > Libreplanet as if
>> > it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'
>> >
>> > Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been spent 
>> > advocating
>> > for free to software and building the inclusive, impractical 
>> > community
>> > so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over and 
>> > over.
>> >
>> > This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free software 
>> > community
>> > is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to work 
>> > with a bunch
>> > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, organizing 
>> > Libreplanet
>> > was my job & introduced me to amazing people from across the 
>> > world
>> >
>> > free software has the ability to do so much good, but there's 
>> > an ugly
>> > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced 
>> > consequences
>> > for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the decades 
>> > of shitty
>> > behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his return
>> >
>> > It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because we 
>> > don't focus
>> > on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by assholes 
>> > sealioning
>> > for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER 
>> > enough) it's
>> > possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now. DON'T 
>> > LET THEM
>> >
>> > My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I 
>> > made a pull
>> > request in order to sign on to this letter.
>> > https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ 
>> > <https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
>> >
>> > One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this. They 
>> > didn't ask
>> > for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' apparently 
>> > impromptu
>> > announcement, they labor for the organization and for the 
>> > community
>> > every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive 
>> > director.”
>> >
>> > The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500 
>> > individuals,
>> > including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati 
>> > <hayati@riseup.net
>> > <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> >     Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board of 
>> >     directors.
>> Now,
>> >     some organizations and people are attacking FSF and RMS 
>> >     and are
>> asking
>> >     them to resign.
>> >
>> >     Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to 
>> >     resist this
>> >     pressure and continue work for the good of the software 
>> >     libre
>> movement.
>> >
>> >     Sending message to info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org> is 
>> >     a way of
>> >     showing your support. They
>> >     are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step down 
>> >     from our
>> >     principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
>> >
>> >     On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>> >      > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of 
>> >      > support for RMS.
>> >      >
>> >      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
>> >     <hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>
>> >      > <mailto:hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>>> 
>> >      > wrote:
>> >      >
>> >      >     People,
>> >      >
>> >      >     FSF board has received lots of messages today and 
>> >      >     there's no
>> >     need to
>> >      >     add
>> >      >     to the pile. Please send your support for RMS to 
>> >      >     info@fsf.org
>> >     <mailto:info@fsf.org>
>> >      >     <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>> and 
>> >      >     ask
>> >      >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
>> >      >
>> >      >     Software libre is a matter of justice. If we can 
>> >      >     learn one
>> >     thing from
>> >      >     the whole movement is to keep our principals and 
>> >      >     fight for
>> >     justice. FSF
>> >      >     made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not to 
>> >      >     defend RMS
>> >     against
>> >      >     false
>> >      >     accusations. Today, we can make that right by 
>> >      >     supporting a
>> >     wonderful
>> >      >     honorable man.
>> >      >
>> >      >     Show your support by sending messages to 
>> >      >     info@fsf.org
>> >     <mailto:info@fsf.org>
>> >      >     <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>>. Do it 
>> >      >     now, later
>> >      >     may be late.
>> >      >
>> >      >     Best.
>> >      >     --
>> >      >     Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com
>> >     <https://alirezahayati.com> <https://alirezahayati.com
>> >     <https://alirezahayati.com>>)
>> >      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>> >      >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 
>> >      >     C354
>> >      >
>> >      >     _______________________________________________
>> >      >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> >      > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> >     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
>> >      >     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> >     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
>> >      >
>> >     https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>> >     <https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>
>> >      >
>> >       <
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 
>> <
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>>
>> >      >
>> >
>> >     --
>> >     Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com <
>> https://alirezahayati.com>)
>> >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>> >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
>> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    Hi,
>    I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who 
>    has left
>    most of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of 
>    the
>    extremely toxic, harassment-filled environments on those 
>    lists. I
>    stayed on the LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I 
>    appreciate
>    seeing the occasional campaign messages and actions to take 
>    in support
>    of free software.
>    RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm one 
>    of the
>    people who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong 
>    stance
>    against sexism in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class 
>    citizens,
>    and to re-consider his utterly clueless and disrespectful 
>    treatment of
>    transgender people in our communities.
>    I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to 
>    choose free
>    software for everything. There is no way for free software to 
>    win if
>    hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after 
>    they get
>    sick of the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our 
>    communities.
>    People take their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over 
>    and over
>    again that he is not interested in removing intolerance. If 
>    we want a
>    movement that grows, instead of a quirky and toxic private 
>    club, then
>    RMS shouldn't lead.
>    Sincerely,
>    Deb Nicholson
>
>    On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati 
>    <[1]hayati@riseup.net>
>    wrote:
>
>      Hello Danny.
>      I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see 
>      anything wrong
>      here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like 
>      it. I've seen
>      gay
>      people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, 
>      after
>      all,
>      that's just jokes and humor.
>      About being offended, again that's not a problem with 
>      RMS. Maybe he
>      hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a 
>      nice
>      person
>      to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up 
>      person.
>      Every
>      person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many 
>      people
>      in my
>      life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
>      If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your 
>      opinion and
>      respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, 
>      that's again
>      respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.
>      However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What 
>      you've
>      signed
>      is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to 
>      defending
>      truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
>      I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because 
>      defending
>      truth is important.
>      Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but 
>      that's just
>      your
>      personal conflict/disappointment.
>      On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>      > I am having a difficult time right now. This person 
>      > Georgia shares
>      > several years of experience working at FSF and directly 
>      > with RMS.
>      Ali,
>      > their testimony makes me think that maybe the free 
>      > software
>      movement
>      > needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied 
>      > from
>      > [2]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
>      > <[3]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
>      > “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward 
>      > for a
>      while. I
>      > recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED 
>      > John
>      Sullivan
>      > about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s 
>      > needed to be
>      > removed from [4]gnu.org <[5]http://gnu.org>. rms didn't 
>      > get why it
>      was harmful.
>      >
>      > Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a 
>      > technical
>      manual? He
>      > threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people 
>      > (who
>      respected
>      > him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that 
>      > wasn't
>      cool.
>      >
>      > The thing that randos who have never had to actually work 
>      > with rms
>      don't
>      > understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him 
>      > tried to
>      help
>      > him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at 
>      > Libreplanet
>      as if
>      > it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'
>      >
>      > Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been 
>      > spent
>      advocating
>      > for free to software and building the inclusive, 
>      > impractical
>      community
>      > so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over 
>      > and
>      over.
>      >
>      > This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free 
>      > software
>      community
>      > is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to 
>      > work with a
>      bunch
>      > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, organizing
>      Libreplanet
>      > was my job & introduced me to amazing people from across 
>      > the world
>      >
>      > free software has the ability to do so much good, but 
>      > there's an
>      ugly
>      > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced
>      consequences
>      > for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the 
>      > decades of
>      shitty
>      > behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his 
>      > return
>      >
>      > It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because 
>      > we don't
>      focus
>      > on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by 
>      > assholes
>      sealioning
>      > for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER 
>      > enough)
>      it's
>      > possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms 
>      > now. DON'T LET
>      THEM
>      >
>      > My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I 
>      > made a
>      pull
>      > request in order to sign on to this letter.
>      > [6]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
>      <[7]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
>      >
>      > One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about 
>      > this. They didn't
>      ask
>      > for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' 
>      > apparently
>      impromptu
>      > announcement, they labor for the organization and for the
>      community
>      > every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive 
>      > director.”
>      >
>      > The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500 
>      > individuals,
>      > including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
>      >
>      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati
>      <[8]hayati@riseup.net
>      > <mailto:[9]hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
>      >
>      >     Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board 
>      >     of
>      directors. Now,
>      >     some organizations and people are attacking FSF and 
>      >     RMS and
>      are asking
>      >     them to resign.
>      >
>      >     Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to 
>      >     resist
>      this
>      >     pressure and continue work for the good of the 
>      >     software libre
>      movement.
>      >
>      >     Sending message to [10]info@fsf.org 
>      >     <mailto:[11]info@fsf.org>
>      is a way of
>      >     showing your support. They
>      >     are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step 
>      >     down from
>      our
>      >     principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
>      >
>      >     On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>      >      > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of 
>      >      > support for
>      RMS.
>      >      >
>      >      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
>      >     <[12]hayati@riseup.net <mailto:[13]hayati@riseup.net>
>      >      > <mailto:[14]hayati@riseup.net
>      <mailto:[15]hayati@riseup.net>>> wrote:
>      >      >
>      >      >     People,
>      >      >
>      >      >     FSF board has received lots of messages today 
>      >      >     and
>      there's no
>      >     need to
>      >      >     add
>      >      >     to the pile. Please send your support for RMS 
>      >      >     to
>      [16]info@fsf.org
>      >     <mailto:[17]info@fsf.org>
>      >      >     <mailto:[18]info@fsf.org 
>      >      >     <mailto:[19]info@fsf.org>> and
>      ask
>      >      >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
>      >      >
>      >      >     Software libre is a matter of justice. If we 
>      >      >     can learn
>      one
>      >     thing from
>      >      >     the whole movement is to keep our principals 
>      >      >     and fight
>      for
>      >     justice. FSF
>      >      >     made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not 
>      >      >     to defend
>      RMS
>      >     against
>      >      >     false
>      >      >     accusations. Today, we can make that right by
>      supporting a
>      >     wonderful
>      >      >     honorable man.
>      >      >
>      >      >     Show your support by sending messages to
>      [20]info@fsf.org
>      >     <mailto:[21]info@fsf.org>
>      >      >     <mailto:[22]info@fsf.org 
>      >      >     <mailto:[23]info@fsf.org>>. Do
>      it now, later
>      >      >     may be late.
>      >      >
>      >      >     Best.
>      >      >     --
>      >      >     Ali Reza Hayati ([24]https://alirezahayati.com
>      >     <[25]https://alirezahayati.com> 
>      >     <[26]https://alirezahayati.com
>      >     <[27]https://alirezahayati.com>>)
>      >      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>      >      >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 
>      >      >     75A3 C354
>      >      >
>      >      >     _______________________________________________
>      >      >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      >      > [28]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      >     <mailto:[29]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
>      >      >     <mailto:[30]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      >     <mailto:[31]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
>      >      >
>      >
>      [32]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
>      ss
>      >
>      <[33]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
>      uss>
>      >      >
>      >
>      <[34]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
>      uss
>      <[35]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
>      uss>>
>      >      >
>      >
>      >     --
>      >     Ali Reza Hayati ([36]https://alirezahayati.com
>      <[37]https://alirezahayati.com>)
>      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>      >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 
>      >     C354
>      >
>      --
>      Ali Reza Hayati ([38]https://alirezahayati.com)
>      Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>      PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>      _______________________________________________
>      libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      [39]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>      [40]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
>      ss
>
> References
>
>    1. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>    2. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
>    3. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
>    4. http://gnu.org/
>    5. http://gnu.org/
>    6. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
>    7. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
>    8. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>    9. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>   10. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   11. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   12. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>   13. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>   14. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>   15. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>   16. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   17. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   18. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   19. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   20. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   21. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   22. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   23. mailto:info@fsf.org
>   24. https://alirezahayati.com/
>   25. https://alirezahayati.com/
>   26. https://alirezahayati.com/
>   27. https://alirezahayati.com/
>   28. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   29. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   30. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   31. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   32. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>   33. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>   34. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>   35. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>   36. https://alirezahayati.com/
>   37. https://alirezahayati.com/
>   38. https://alirezahayati.com/
>   39. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>   40. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss


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