From: quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net>
To: Aaron Wolf <wolftune@riseup.net>
Cc: Yuchen Pei <hi@ypei.me>, Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net>,
Steve M Bibayoff <bibayoff@gmail.com>,
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
Subject: Re: Support RMS
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 16:27:59 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87czvkb82o.fsf@riseup.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <9718aaf9-3c95-a718-aa12-0d23e5075c95@riseup.net> (Aaron Wolf's message of "Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:53:48 -0700")
Aaron Wolf <wolftune@riseup.net> writes:
> The reason I bothered speaking up here is because there is a trend
> toward dismissiveness. Seek ways to lump the critics in with the bad
> actors. Reject an analogy because it's not equivalent.
>
> Those are the methods by which we *avoid* learning all we can learn.
>
> If our goal is indeed to gain all the perspectives we can to be as wise
> as possible, we must start with the presumption that there *is*
> something to learn. Presume that the critics have some insight *even* if
> they are guilty of some other unfair statements. Presume that an analogy
> has some insight even if it's not actually equivalent.
>
> To learn, we can say, "*how* is this critique true?" and "what about
> this analogy is *true*?"
>
> To avoid learning, we can say "what aspects of the critic can we use to
> dismiss them?" and "in what ways is the analogy wrong?"
>
> A good mental model: fill in the blank: "I would accept your feedback if
> _____" (maybe, if you were an expert, or if it were presented without
> some unfair attack, or if you have personal experience, or if you've
> been part of the community long enough" etc etc)
>
> Next, recognize that every one of those filters is an *obstacle* to an
> open mind. I'm not saying we should be so open-minded that our brains
> fall out. But we can be conscious of our filters. Every feedback-filter
> is a closed door. It's possible to get to say, "I will truly listen to
> and consider any feedback in any form from anyone and any time", but I'm
> not saying that's right for us or for anyone in particular. I'm just
> saying to *notice* our filters.
Good reasoning. Taking the matter off-topic is not the way to argue
usefully about the issue. But this bit is educational.
> Don't just look for the flaws. Ask: how is the Snowden analogy *useful*?
I'll take the bait. How is it? How is attacking an old activist from the
safety of distance comparable to risking our lives?
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-03-29 15:47 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 216+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-03-25 23:57 Support RMS Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 0:19 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 1:04 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 1:40 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-03-26 3:29 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-03-26 4:57 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 1:47 ` Steve M Bibayoff
2021-03-26 14:50 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 15:54 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-26 16:40 ` Yuchen Pei
2021-03-26 16:53 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-26 17:03 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 21:27 ` quiliro [this message]
2021-03-27 21:52 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-26 17:05 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 17:28 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 19:59 ` quiliro
2021-03-27 20:19 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-27 19:55 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 19:25 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-30 3:23 ` quiliro
2021-03-30 3:44 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-30 7:25 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 17:24 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 17:32 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 17:39 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 17:46 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 17:51 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 17:55 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 17:59 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 21:18 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 18:00 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 18:02 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 18:06 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 18:09 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 21:14 ` quiliro
2021-03-31 14:38 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-31 15:19 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-31 17:26 ` Miles Fidelman
[not found] ` <YGSqlIc9U3D/7JMB@protected.localdomain>
2021-03-31 17:25 ` Proposals to improve FSF (was a thread about FSF union) Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 18:11 ` Support RMS Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 18:15 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 18:25 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 19:02 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-27 21:13 ` quiliro
2021-03-26 21:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 21:15 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 21:14 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 21:11 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 2:16 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 6:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 19:52 ` Quiliro Ordóñez
2021-03-27 17:40 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-29 1:35 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 19:06 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 20:32 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 4:36 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 12:29 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 13:18 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 13:35 ` Yuchen Pei
2021-03-26 13:38 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 13:49 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 14:03 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 14:17 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 14:26 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 14:37 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 20:59 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 23:03 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 23:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 23:59 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 5:53 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 23:56 ` noise - [was Support RMS] Miles Fidelman
2021-03-27 0:16 ` Support RMS Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 0:18 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 2:29 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 2:50 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 5:47 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 5:53 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 6:23 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 12:06 ` Robbt
2021-03-27 12:28 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 12:36 ` Stephen Paul Weber
2021-03-27 12:41 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 13:41 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-31 21:16 ` Matt Ivie
2021-04-01 7:25 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 18:44 ` Florian Snow
2021-03-26 19:28 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 21:26 ` Elias Rudberg
2021-03-26 22:01 ` Florian Snow
2021-03-27 23:15 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 19:52 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-30 23:54 ` quiliro
2021-03-26 21:33 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 22:20 ` Florian Snow
2021-03-26 20:48 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 13:27 ` Robbt E
2021-03-26 20:56 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 20:40 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-31 20:57 ` Matt Ivie
2021-03-26 14:22 ` Adonay Felipe Nogueira via libreplanet-discuss
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-03-27 5:08 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 5:32 ` Máirín Duffy
2021-03-27 6:41 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 5:35 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-29 12:25 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 12:49 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-29 14:46 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-29 17:34 ` Lusin via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-27 5:58 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 6:13 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 6:23 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 6:25 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 6:35 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 11:42 ` Neils Nesse
2021-03-27 12:12 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 6:30 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 17:45 ` Danny Spitzberg
[not found] ` <YF96LdwX+DQx/0FH@protected.localdomain>
2021-03-27 19:07 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-31 0:15 ` quiliro
2021-03-31 0:06 ` quiliro
2021-03-27 6:18 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-04-12 11:23 Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-12 17:32 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-12 17:57 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-12 18:17 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-13 5:37 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-04-13 5:57 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-13 6:58 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-04-13 16:44 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-13 12:53 ` Dennis Payne
2021-04-13 15:30 ` quiliro
2021-04-14 0:56 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-14 1:00 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-14 1:35 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-14 1:42 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-14 15:36 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-14 19:07 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 19:28 ` Deb Nicholson
[not found] ` <YHdGE/dikVycAXWJ@protected.localdomain>
2021-04-14 20:00 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-14 20:37 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 20:23 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-14 20:55 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 23:13 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 7:51 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 1:13 ` quiliro
2021-04-15 1:53 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 2:29 ` quiliro
2021-04-15 8:20 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 16:13 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-15 17:00 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 17:24 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 17:39 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 17:47 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 17:51 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 17:43 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 0:54 ` quiliro
2021-04-16 1:12 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 3:51 ` quiliro
2021-04-16 4:59 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 6:04 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 6:56 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 16:09 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 16:46 ` Ali Reza Hayati
[not found] ` <orpmysp80e.fsf@lxoliva.fsfla.org>
2021-04-18 4:48 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-18 5:19 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-18 5:24 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-15 17:23 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-15 17:39 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-15 18:43 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 20:59 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-15 22:40 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 22:49 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 4:36 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 4:43 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 5:02 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 5:21 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 6:22 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 6:48 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 7:25 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 8:07 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 10:48 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 14:09 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 14:52 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-16 19:26 ` Jean Louis
[not found] ` <CAEYaDQNahppkCt5kEytkaJ34a9zoUXt=W93f8sJErsyvceiXYA@mail.gmail.com>
2021-04-16 10:52 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 21:06 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 21:04 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 21:49 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 22:04 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 22:08 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 22:55 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-16 21:56 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-16 22:12 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 22:18 ` Thomas Lord
[not found] ` <YHqAGLJeGFiJTZ2V@protected.localdomain>
2021-04-18 17:15 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-16 4:45 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 5:00 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 3:45 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 18:44 ` Lusin via libreplanet-discuss
2021-04-15 18:39 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 18:41 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 22:19 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 22:34 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 23:37 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-16 4:49 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 4:21 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 4:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 20:15 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 21:00 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-15 21:10 ` Matt Ivie
2021-04-16 6:35 ` Federico Leva (Nemo)
2021-04-14 14:48 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-14 17:19 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-14 18:52 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 18:23 ` Jean Louis
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