From: Florian Snow <floriansnow@member.fsf.org>
To: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
Subject: Re: Support RMS
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 19:44:47 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <871rc1g3fk.fsf@raspberrypi> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAE3dWx-VLwkQMG_5GLnCKYb4T3WTQBKLgcLsfw7sixDT9gPcwA@mail.gmail.com> (Deb Nicholson's message of "Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:18:13 -0400")
Hi everyone,
I appreciate the calm, measured voices I've heard here. I would also
like to take some of the heat out of this discussion and contribute my
point of view. I usually just lurk here, not sure since when. I've
been donating to and volunteering for different Free Software groups for
many years now, mainly the big ones, the FSF, the FSFE, and the SFC.
But of course I don't speak for any of them. I am quite disheartened by
the current situation, because I would have liked to have seen a
different development overall. I was happy at first when I heard that
Richard Stallman was speaking at Libreplanet. I had the impression that
it might work out similarly to what happened with Linus Torvalds, who
took some time off, reflected on his behavior, and then came back with a
changed attitude. As far as I know that worked well, but I don't know
all the details about how it's going now.
Things have been different with RMS. He has consistently stood out for
years with bad behavior. I don't mean the things that are mentioned
again and again in certain news outlets. Those articles do often at
least lack context (although even the context does not make these
instances problem-free). But there is other problematic behavior. For
example, it harms our movement if at events about Free Software, RMS
also remarks on completely unrelated topics which offend people. And
it's unnecessary because it doesn't advance software freedom. But even
if you ignore all that, there are still problematic things. For
instance, RMS acting annoyed and aggressive when people accidentally use
a wrong term. And yes, I have also personally experienced the exact
opposite, where he reacted very friendly to those mistakes, but those
things don't cancel each other out. And that behavior also scares off
people who are new to our movement, who don't know everything yet, but
are enthusiastic about the cause and want to learn. It's a problem that
they run the risk of being yelled at for making a mistake. It's also a
problem when people who help RMS with something are completely ignored
and get the impression in the interaction that they as a person don't
matter at all, it's just that he just needs an alarm clock or a pen or
whatever and nothing else matters. And you can explain some of these
behaviors to him and then sometimes something changes. But the change
usually remains very limited in scope and in similar cases the behavior
doesn't change. And yes, I have a strong urge to excuse such things,
because RMS is just so focused on the matter and maybe without a certain
stubbornness this whole movement would not exist. And yes, I know other
sides of him, where he is extremely kind to people and brings them
gifts. But even there, the good behavior does not cancel out the bad,
especially because it relates to different people. All of this has been
hurting us for a long time because it turns people away from our
community.
But even if you disregard all that, there are still more problems. Let's
assume that all of RMS's statements that other people found problematic
were just misunderstandings. Personally, if someone tells me "Hey, what
you just said upsets me" or something like that, my first reaction is
"Oh, I'm sorry about that." And then I try to avoid that in the
future. You can often say things in a less confrontational way, and you
don't always have to share every thought with every person. You can also
sometimes say nothing (even if it's hard - I know this from
myself). With RMS, though, the answer too often was "What I said was
right because." or "There's no need to get upset because my assertion
is right for those reasons." That may all be true, but even when
interpreted in an extremely positive way, that is at the very least an
extremely poor communication style.
And if I repeatedly offend people with the same problematic statements,
and this is also completely unnecessary because it has nothing to do
with my mission of advancing Free Software, then at some point the
question arises as to whether these things are still compatible. If I
have such a high profile position, I have to keep some ideas to myself,
also because otherwise I harm the cause. Or if I absolutely want to say
these things, then perhaps I should give up this leadership position so
as not to harm the cause. And to arrive at this conclusion, I already
interpreted a lot of things in a very favorable way.
At some point, however, there comes a time where you have to ask
yourself whether someone who repeatedly makes statements that hurt
others isn't making these statements his own, no matter if it is meant
that way. For example (deliberately choice of something RMS is not
accused of): if someone repeatedly uses racist phrases or words, even
after it is pointed out to him, doesn't he at least at some point make
these racist statements his own, even if it is not meant that way?
That's exactly how it is in the case of RMS, unfortunately.
Now, as I said, this was all against the backdrop of favorable
interpretations and an isolated view of the various problems. In
practice, however, these problems have a combined effect and deter
people who want to work with us. That cannot be the goal. And if the
announcement of RMS's return shows no self-reflection at all, but only
"some of you will be happy about this and some will be disappointed, but
who knows. In any case, that's how it is. And I'm not planning to resign
a second time" then that definitely falls short of acceptable
behavior. You can't treat people like that.
That's why I support statements such as the one we made at the FSFE or
the one the EFF made. It is tough to make such a statement, because it
is not an easy topic. But at some point you just have to admit that it
doesn't matter for what reason someone hurts other people. If it happens
once, ok, that's human, but if it happens over and over again, then it
doesn't matter if that person can't do better or doesn't want to do
better. The person is then simply unsuitable for such a leadership role,
no matter what the other merits are. Merit does not cancel out bad
behavior. And it breaks my heart that there was no other outcome. Those
who know me know that I can never give up on a person and I do what I
can to make amends. I was hoping so hard to have a joint future, but
for that to happen, RMS would have had to change his behavior as well
and admit a problem. At this point, as much as it pains me, I have to
draw a line and clearly state that this behavior, no matter the reasons
behind it, is unacceptable, and this, in turn, has an effect on
organizations that support it.
I think there are other people who have done the Free Software movement
and RMS personally a huge disservice by backing to go along with this.
But this goes beyond RMS and his future. I want him to understand and
if he asks me, I will explain what I think the problem. But I also
think of all the people out there who were put off and didn't contribute
to our cause or perhaps even started to work against it. That makes our
community weaker as a whole and we need to work on that.
Happy hacking!
Florian
_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-03-26 19:10 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 216+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-03-25 23:57 Support RMS Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 0:19 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 1:04 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 1:40 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-03-26 3:29 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-03-26 4:57 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 1:47 ` Steve M Bibayoff
2021-03-26 14:50 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 15:54 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-26 16:40 ` Yuchen Pei
2021-03-26 16:53 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-26 17:03 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 21:27 ` quiliro
2021-03-27 21:52 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-26 17:05 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 17:28 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 19:59 ` quiliro
2021-03-27 20:19 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-27 19:55 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 19:25 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-30 3:23 ` quiliro
2021-03-30 3:44 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-30 7:25 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 17:24 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 17:32 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 17:39 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 17:46 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 17:51 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 17:55 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 17:59 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 21:18 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 18:00 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 18:02 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 18:06 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 18:09 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 21:14 ` quiliro
2021-03-31 14:38 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-31 15:19 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-31 17:26 ` Miles Fidelman
[not found] ` <YGSqlIc9U3D/7JMB@protected.localdomain>
2021-03-31 17:25 ` Proposals to improve FSF (was a thread about FSF union) Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 18:11 ` Support RMS Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 18:15 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 18:25 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 19:02 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-27 21:13 ` quiliro
2021-03-26 21:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 21:15 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 21:14 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 21:11 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 2:16 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 6:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 19:52 ` Quiliro Ordóñez
2021-03-27 17:40 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-29 1:35 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 19:06 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 20:32 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 4:36 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-26 12:29 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 13:18 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 13:35 ` Yuchen Pei
2021-03-26 13:38 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 13:49 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 14:03 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 14:17 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 14:26 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 14:37 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-03-26 20:59 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 23:03 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-03-26 23:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 23:59 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 5:53 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 23:56 ` noise - [was Support RMS] Miles Fidelman
2021-03-27 0:16 ` Support RMS Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 0:18 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-27 2:29 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 2:50 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 5:47 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 5:53 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 6:23 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 12:06 ` Robbt
2021-03-27 12:28 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 12:36 ` Stephen Paul Weber
2021-03-27 12:41 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 13:41 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-31 21:16 ` Matt Ivie
2021-04-01 7:25 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-26 18:44 ` Florian Snow [this message]
2021-03-26 19:28 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-26 21:26 ` Elias Rudberg
2021-03-26 22:01 ` Florian Snow
2021-03-27 23:15 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 19:52 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-30 23:54 ` quiliro
2021-03-26 21:33 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 22:20 ` Florian Snow
2021-03-26 20:48 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 13:27 ` Robbt E
2021-03-26 20:56 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-26 20:40 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-31 20:57 ` Matt Ivie
2021-03-26 14:22 ` Adonay Felipe Nogueira via libreplanet-discuss
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-03-27 5:08 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 5:32 ` Máirín Duffy
2021-03-27 6:41 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 5:35 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-29 12:25 ` quiliro
2021-03-29 12:49 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-29 14:46 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-29 17:34 ` Lusin via libreplanet-discuss
2021-03-27 5:58 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 6:13 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-03-27 6:23 ` Thomas Lord
2021-03-27 6:25 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 6:35 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-03-27 11:42 ` Neils Nesse
2021-03-27 12:12 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 6:30 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-27 17:45 ` Danny Spitzberg
[not found] ` <YF96LdwX+DQx/0FH@protected.localdomain>
2021-03-27 19:07 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-03-31 0:15 ` quiliro
2021-03-31 0:06 ` quiliro
2021-03-27 6:18 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2021-04-12 11:23 Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-12 17:32 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-12 17:57 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-12 18:17 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-13 5:37 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-04-13 5:57 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-13 6:58 ` Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss
2021-04-13 16:44 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-13 12:53 ` Dennis Payne
2021-04-13 15:30 ` quiliro
2021-04-14 0:56 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-14 1:00 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-14 1:35 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-14 1:42 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-14 15:36 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-14 19:07 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 19:28 ` Deb Nicholson
[not found] ` <YHdGE/dikVycAXWJ@protected.localdomain>
2021-04-14 20:00 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-14 20:37 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 20:23 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-14 20:55 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 23:13 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 7:51 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 1:13 ` quiliro
2021-04-15 1:53 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 2:29 ` quiliro
2021-04-15 8:20 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 16:13 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-15 17:00 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 17:24 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 17:39 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 17:47 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-15 17:51 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 17:43 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 0:54 ` quiliro
2021-04-16 1:12 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 3:51 ` quiliro
2021-04-16 4:59 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 6:04 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 6:56 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 16:09 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 16:46 ` Ali Reza Hayati
[not found] ` <orpmysp80e.fsf@lxoliva.fsfla.org>
2021-04-18 4:48 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-18 5:19 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-18 5:24 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-15 17:23 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-15 17:39 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-15 18:43 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 20:59 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-15 22:40 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 22:49 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 4:36 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 4:43 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 5:02 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 5:21 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 6:22 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 6:48 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 7:25 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 8:07 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 10:48 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 14:09 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 14:52 ` Deb Nicholson
2021-04-16 19:26 ` Jean Louis
[not found] ` <CAEYaDQNahppkCt5kEytkaJ34a9zoUXt=W93f8sJErsyvceiXYA@mail.gmail.com>
2021-04-16 10:52 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 21:06 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 21:04 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 21:49 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 22:04 ` Aaron Wolf
2021-04-16 22:08 ` Thomas Lord
2021-04-16 22:55 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-16 21:56 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-16 22:12 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 22:18 ` Thomas Lord
[not found] ` <YHqAGLJeGFiJTZ2V@protected.localdomain>
2021-04-18 17:15 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-16 4:45 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 5:00 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-16 3:45 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 18:44 ` Lusin via libreplanet-discuss
2021-04-15 18:39 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 18:41 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 22:19 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 22:34 ` Danny Spitzberg
2021-04-15 23:37 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-16 4:49 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 4:21 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-16 4:20 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-15 20:15 ` Alexandre Oliva
2021-04-15 21:00 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-15 21:10 ` Matt Ivie
2021-04-16 6:35 ` Federico Leva (Nemo)
2021-04-14 14:48 ` Ali Reza Hayati
2021-04-14 17:19 ` Adrienne G. Thompson
2021-04-14 18:52 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-14 18:23 ` Jean Louis
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
List information: https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=871rc1g3fk.fsf@raspberrypi \
--to=floriansnow@member.fsf.org \
--cc=libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).