Re: Support RMS

[Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net>]

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On 26/03/2021 18:19, Deb Nicholson wrote:

>     An interesting thing about men who harass women is that they usually
>     don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that they "don't
>     believe in harassment" are the last people to find out it's happening,
>     because no one feels safe telling them.

I believe in harassment and I do stand against any person who harass 
people, no matter they're women or men. But someone's feelings being 
hurt is not harassment.

For example, and only example, asking someone out or calling someone by 
wrong pronouns may hurt person's feelings but that's no harassment. Or, 
telling a person who is a woman that she's not as useful as some other 
person who is a man is not sexism.

Again, I'm not accusing you of lying, I just don't know the whole story 
so I can't make decision.

Since 2019, I've seen stories and articles that accuse RMS of harassment 
and assault which when I read carefully, I see only misunderstandings.

What is happening now, specially that so-called open letter is based on 
misunderstandings and some lies, not truth. I oppose that.

Again, sorry for your experience.
>     Hundreds of people have been driven away for free software for many,
>     many years. Women have stories of his behavior going back to MIT. A few
>     of those women are still in tech and could've been contributing to free
>     software for the last 30 years. We lose women and people who won't
>     stand for the harassment of women all the time.

This may be a political issue. I stand with women who are harassed, but 
I don't believe all women. I believe proof, not words. I don't accuse 
anybody of lying, I only can't stand somewhere when I'm not presented 
with any proof.

>     I'm sorry that you are unwilling to believe the women who have worked
>     closely with RMS in the FSF office or on the GNU project. Or the women
>     he has interacted with at tech conferences or sci-fi conferences. Or
>     the women he has mistreated at MIT.
>     I hope that you will consider that all of us would rather be doing
>     something else with our time and the only reason to speak up is because
>     we care about the future of free software.
>     Best,
>     Deb

I'm willing to believe any proof, so far, there haven't been any proof. 
Sorry you see me like this, I just can't decide where to stand without 
being presented by any proof. I understand that may hurt people, but I'm 
not willing to hurt others because I heard stories.

> 
>       On March 26, 2021 1:18:13 PM UTC, Deb Nicholson
>       <[2]deb@eximiousproductions.com> wrote:
>       >Hi,
>       >I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who has
>       left most
>       >of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the
>       extremely
>       >toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I stayed on
>       the
>       >LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate seeing
>       the
>       >occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support of free
>       >software.
>       >
>       >RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm one of
>       the people
>       >who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance against
>       sexism
>       >in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens, and to
>       re-consider
>       >his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of transgender
>       people in
>       >our communities.
>       >
>       >I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to choose
>       free
>       >software for everything. There is no way for free software to win
>       if
>       >hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after they get
>       sick of
>       >the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our communities. People
>       take
>       >their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over again that
>       he is
>       >not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a movement that
>       grows,
>       >instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then RMS shouldn't
>       lead.
>       >
>       >Sincerely,
>       >Deb Nicholson
>       >
>       >On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati
>       <[3]hayati@riseup.net> wrote:
>       >
>       >> Hello Danny.
>       >>
>       >> I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything
>       wrong
>       >> here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've seen
>       gay
>       >> people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, after
>       all,
>       >> that's just jokes and humor.
>       >>
>       >> About being offended, again that's not a problem with RMS. Maybe
>       he
>       >> hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice
>       person
>       >> to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up person.
>       Every
>       >> person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many
>       people in my
>       >> life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
>       >>
>       >> If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion and
>       >> respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's
>       again
>       >> respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.
>       >>
>       >> However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've
>       signed
>       >> is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to
>       defending
>       >> truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
>       >>
>       >> I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because
>       defending
>       >> truth is important.
>       >>
>       >> Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's
>       just your
>       >> personal conflict/disappointment.
>       >>
>       >> On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>       >> > I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia
>       shares
>       >> > several years of experience working at FSF and directly with
>       RMS. Ali,
>       >> > their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software
>       movement
>       >> > needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
>       >> > [4]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
>       >> >
>       <[5]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
>       >> > “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a
>       while. I
>       >> > recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED John
>       Sullivan
>       >> > about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s needed to
>       be
>       >> > removed from [6]gnu.org <[7]http://gnu.org>. rms didn't get why
>       it was
>       >> harmful.
>       >> >
>       >> > Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a technical
>       manual? He
>       >> > threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people (who
>       respected
>       >> > him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that wasn't
>       cool.
>       >> >
>       >> > The thing that randos who have never had to actually work with
>       rms don't
>       >> > understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried
>       to help
>       >> > him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at
>       Libreplanet as if
>       >> > it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'
>       >> >
>       >> > Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been spent
>       advocating
>       >> > for free to software and building the inclusive, impractical
>       community
>       >> > so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over and
>       over.
>       >> >
>       >> > This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free software
>       community
>       >> > is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to work with
>       a bunch
>       >> > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, organizing
>       Libreplanet
>       >> > was my job & introduced me to amazing people from across the
>       world
>       >> >
>       >> > free software has the ability to do so much good, but there's
>       an ugly
>       >> > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced
>       consequences
>       >> > for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the decades of
>       shitty
>       >> > behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his return
>       >> >
>       >> > It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because we
>       don't focus
>       >> > on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by assholes
>       sealioning
>       >> > for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER enough)
>       it's
>       >> > possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now. DON'T LET
>       THEM
>       >> >
>       >> > My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I made
>       a pull
>       >> > request in order to sign on to this letter.
>       >> > [8]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
>       <[9]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
>       >> >
>       >> > One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this. They
>       didn't ask
>       >> > for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' apparently
>       impromptu
>       >> > announcement, they labor for the organization and for the
>       community
>       >> > every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive
>       director.”
>       >> >
>       >> > The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500
>       individuals,
>       >> > including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
>       >> >
>       >> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati
>       <[10]hayati@riseup.net
>       >> > <mailto:[11]hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
>       >> >
>       >> >     Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board of
>       directors.
>       >> Now,
>       >> >     some organizations and people are attacking FSF and RMS and
>       are
>       >> asking
>       >> >     them to resign.
>       >> >
>       >> >     Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to resist
>       this
>       >> >     pressure and continue work for the good of the software
>       libre
>       >> movement.
>       >> >
>       >> >     Sending message to [12]info@fsf.org
>       <mailto:[13]info@fsf.org> is a way of
>       >> >     showing your support. They
>       >> >     are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step down
>       from our
>       >> >     principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
>       >> >
>       >> >     On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>       >> >      > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of support
>       for RMS.
>       >> >      >
>       >> >      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
>       >> >     <[14]hayati@riseup.net <mailto:[15]hayati@riseup.net>
>       >> >      > <mailto:[16]hayati@riseup.net
>       <mailto:[17]hayati@riseup.net>>> wrote:
>       >> >      >
>       >> >      >     People,
>       >> >      >
>       >> >      >     FSF board has received lots of messages today and
>       there's no
>       >> >     need to
>       >> >      >     add
>       >> >      >     to the pile. Please send your support for RMS to
>       [18]info@fsf.org
>       >> >     <mailto:[19]info@fsf.org>
>       >> >      >     <mailto:[20]info@fsf.org <mailto:[21]info@fsf.org>>
>       and ask
>       >> >      >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
>       >> >      >
>       >> >      >     Software libre is a matter of justice. If we can
>       learn one
>       >> >     thing from
>       >> >      >     the whole movement is to keep our principals and
>       fight for
>       >> >     justice. FSF
>       >> >      >     made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not to
>       defend RMS
>       >> >     against
>       >> >      >     false
>       >> >      >     accusations. Today, we can make that right by
>       supporting a
>       >> >     wonderful
>       >> >      >     honorable man.
>       >> >      >
>       >> >      >     Show your support by sending messages to
>       [22]info@fsf.org
>       >> >     <mailto:[23]info@fsf.org>
>       >> >      >     <mailto:[24]info@fsf.org <mailto:[25]info@fsf.org>>.
>       Do it now, later
>       >> >      >     may be late.
>       >> >      >
>       >> >      >     Best.
>       >> >      >     --
>       >> >      >     Ali Reza Hayati ([26]https://alirezahayati.com
>       >> >     <[27]https://alirezahayati.com>
>       <[28]https://alirezahayati.com
>       >> >     <[29]https://alirezahayati.com>>)
>       >> >      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>       >> >      >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
>       C354
>       >> >      >
>       >> >      >     _______________________________________________
>       >> >      >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>       >> >      > [30]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>       >> >     <mailto:[31]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
>       >> >      >     <mailto:[32]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>       >> >     <mailto:[33]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
>       >> >      >
>       >> >
>       [34]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
>       ss
>       >> >
>       <[35]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
>       uss>
>       >> >      >
>       >> >       <
>       >>
>       [36]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
>       ss <
>       >>
>       [37]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
>       ss>>
>       >> >      >
>       >> >
>       >> >     --
>       >> >     Ali Reza Hayati ([38]https://alirezahayati.com <
>       >> [39]https://alirezahayati.com>)
>       >> >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>       >> >     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>       >> >
>       >>
>       >> --
>       >> Ali Reza Hayati ([40]https://alirezahayati.com)
>       >> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>       >> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>       >>
>       >> _______________________________________________
>       >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>       >> [41]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>       >>
>       [42]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
>       ss
>       --
>       Ali Reza Hayati ([43]https://alirezahayati.com)
>       Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>       PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
> 
> References
> 
>     1. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>     2. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
>     3. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>     4. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
>     5. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
>     6. http://gnu.org/
>     7. http://gnu.org/
>     8. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
>     9. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
>    10. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>    11. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>    12. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    13. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    14. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>    15. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>    16. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>    17. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
>    18. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    19. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    20. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    21. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    22. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    23. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    24. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    25. mailto:info@fsf.org
>    26. https://alirezahayati.com/
>    27. https://alirezahayati.com/
>    28. https://alirezahayati.com/
>    29. https://alirezahayati.com/
>    30. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    31. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    32. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    33. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    34. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    35. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    36. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    37. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    38. https://alirezahayati.com/
>    39. https://alirezahayati.com/
>    40. https://alirezahayati.com/
>    41. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>    42. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>    43. https://alirezahayati.com/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 

-- 
Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354


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