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Mon, 16 Sep 2019 05:23:43 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i9nES-0007Bl-LO for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 05:23:41 -0400 Received: from bluehome.net ([96.66.250.149]:40600) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i9nES-0007BS-Bn for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 05:23:40 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.89] (74-209-14-119.dsl.dynamic.casstel.net [74.209.14.119]) by bluehome.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DB8604B404B7 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 02:23:38 -0700 (PDT) To: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org References: <49a2f06c-8da6-b381-d6ae-d8eac4c877e7@bluehome.net> From: Caleb Herbert Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=csh@bluehome.net; keydata= xsFNBFx6LJ0BEADoVnuKf4BUsYeP3zAWiYDSSSnTvZ3FYZ9OHsP1naw7krHT6wrwQ4kR+cYG qsWr4Jb6+GH1cXkQHo+K0nWVmBYPlN5xxRecUfvuSIN0Orti8C5lnS4ykP/nhZlmy3G7U2VZ fsWXxagNoZIWwiju5c++m1EG4XETRQlsjHYWc0wySkdJKVlyOlhkjzsZESdGrp5JeBwChxD+ 6dxIEVJQ0E5Z93zEDyg7MTxg0kU723P8Tv8t20LPKwNjto1oOsiN68TMXLeFjoAF2rLUgBaO NBnwUfVeN+KIQ+13i5bCPeu2c5U4zi7hb3x3uTnZ02nh5h5Dn8fMo0Ol2TDMK6MvY8bTDQgK TIlqBW8FyKtmDzMzhqUnnU+FmKXCDx0k/DMrjDC/sJ9TaW76iU1S9+KQ6DDntXAjj5ct38CL Mde9AQJ47qiZ/UluV+tC9NETUIsQJ0rJwyFKJOnhywxX4MDFsf11/A/+HxmtgyQSnxe/qNld KNjIyaOToY6S5h+cf3aK6mfbgOxrqrVAMnYqpk0VhHvqbs48b2FkH8MXCHlpSYhyK2w5hrJr XUwP+HCYslteG9U7na1bheImAr6Ops1JWQVcQ9LoLI7T8iEWb1AmgZx8ZOhtnGTwfK5lnDRK vGR1mSABnkIpt8drKHZo4sEWPmnxDbAJHkuf9ofYPJ5l9qwq9QARAQABzRZDYWwgPGNzaEBi bHVlaG9tZS5uZXQ+wsF9BBMBCAAnBQJceiydAhsjBQkJZgGABQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWAgMB Ah4BAheAAAoJEELk/fgPA8p8gSwQALHQTU//4FW7w5B/VdUgjf2NpNuqjI47okjW5hnotehL jsjh+SZR1xPfzs9NTq9ZOjUaw6xl8HPyzsi3UZxEo2T8LSh8Mg9JhddXQPZJ0tAfI1jA98Yd GmYtX1Z7BdixZF2gvhtuPd/F6/Z2MxaXhC1OS7l9hQS1+sa08SK4R+qgsOF8HUBfjtG4GmwK hbECpjeh4ZHJ6ZbSQ5EEgF2lt7QMCoIUhdVxB3OhPiNx4IIef/SQfLVlscM0lmuTYOIt7gYa JXZBQI5+eIEEhCL0npk1nXEFWEGfYIVL5UODsTw/ZZEuGfbaV1+LO5hUz1LQHu8gdYFkebyE U73c4VZAySqLEj6hz6FW8p749gjTEWYddd+vjH5NQ5JHTsGggbn+wlx9mCPt5t/OLh3G20/b Xy7KFjNqkQKWHc/LOXqh7v+fZXqErxw/rLS1JYWUPgnAne4MfkXOQJgWViuBkroofQ4YHyG5 po9W+EhDJq95R+qGBv/HFiHKVVDIkx8wP9M0/fdVyBGDn8nBpJL+WjJZcM61dpfmQp0R/Lik oPx+hDwcy4tVv54nOCBdht7jpnMpXTQLnb6SNW4bLvXcqWPJ57JlGdOwA3EYYdx4W0A4WwFs MjAorz+MaRVWGlK49RexYYDDqXMu9SLRYjlTJGbBOETuzbBZNqtKfESr9fKgO5fzzsFNBFx6 LJ0BEADAO7lP6IyvHmSMQ5k4PuoqFLF0AP5C00zo9e1twgJTZ3NVSwNDocXK4ANfysZqeIe5 6fS9LEMIIpgNpIjsLXiGdDPTAWHQ1OCuk8yVa3c9TZ3eG5rzNOkSh6E40L4NJZGvl2IfqA+w 24+9Klfbv7MfeXG6qseE+DaOYm2RA5eXP7IWW2diRW7RROVfn4Qup3mhCgEDuawPypmuQ8Ln Ct1/expnK0XEVq4bpr2sBqsTOgLNDcxZdXcFu88P99LVHO8rQLqJFsQscu/qT6WMWfv5ybf8 iY+mkKzOPk+Bv2XmOREMslAHMewnuzxUHefZnOPWh52CiUUhLDwin4dQ+7U28H3AFuNjS+jp 0EsduT6n5cMa6jo9NkjZD5XZSyDUpQ8EtBudrA7POJL7AlJdKxmbtgaljaEXKBJUBZ9C+KWV 4U3ryVCrAnF30ySVB8b6Aw4N4Rbw7GM4xVBYeqXIEfVSkdJ8Zi2XrtqGxmls0y3ky56bZzRY whH2+gdkFaCOlwUrfIcycl2ata+6ub9rcxRTUMLtI2JZzp95w6TsBHN0qFs5ANlkT4DOfDW8 X4OWSCQ7dYIhf2Cm3WtUTJewp7ylLGtDfowt2wo08waBVsJrX091j3pb/TzQfsZZ7G0fCSYz SC0+1PYgnr56+NZ+nMKHjo70FNrKpQMtDr0bkJHyLwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJceiydAhsM BQkJZgGAAAoJEELk/fgPA8p8guIP/1Dv9IZn8VgXfvM49c9z1d8N0y8xUYogXJZYp9gUah6R dL28GKyYJ1ruWMsckjc13FEfxdK6hc0v26p3F8UXsS263tqMXWxzfD52Lpasw83Bqa84rocs yEUMjWP+uFDQslvtNLqdI5iYtkzWEXtcyxeMeXTE8xQvFvS3OvAZrrE+RwotKoXAqrp53HMj Oaf4YpWAHnzHlhLpCmgmPteah359y0Ee+IIRx0RiiZVDcZ/DTn+JtMEX0j6VfQZXtQhVogCH x6Y4FvmAXmB9cIIWOcwRzYXpay08VftNdQJkStB1b8UfElntf//W9fR7z7FJeXtFEyiSzapI n7Maj3zGqGn+KYRReIoFWzUBlsktmAsFadbH8X0v8461UCMwaSrXopDltE9HVwr0/R3QsuKj blsptOxZ28cl81ed0kX+XEwmBFgM/Dhp2uTsOlG+A/RnZht0UK96U53OVxXTwOPhCqV9JNMA DUrrQlx8/t43xavypOlJzLXAF8FPN+WAtGny76nAQEowgISiBBuQgKZ7UKjj75pozfaoa/qV gg8W9UkPWxzetDF76qrBDglZviob6KDNJ5/3NzQOZzUMUWANqrIr9022E/d7z3Jnq7NhIwug Eh4bmIhLovYfD/Pfh/p/2US20rHLIh1F7+xYaN4Z3j5RJP5NkNNNte/pljgC+aDZ Message-ID: <71143753-afc6-14d3-5358-2006da9b0fa2@bluehome.net> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 04:23:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0EE74AF60E6C158FEB95257F" Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 96.66.250.149 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IOKAnFByb21vdGUgTm9QaG9uZeKAnSBpcyBhIHBhdGggdG8gbm93aGVy?= =?UTF-8?B?ZQ==?= X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0EE74AF60E6C158FEB95257F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 09/16/2019 03:23 AM, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:> Caleb Herbert wrote: >> Most people cannot access or afford decent Replicant devices. > > No people can access or afford _decent_ Replicant devices: they are simply nonexistent. I consider the ancient Galaxy S2 decent. > A device, listed at https://replicant.us (which would _not_ fully work under it anyway), could be obtained very easily and for a laughable price, though. The price is expensive. Scarcity of after-market devices still in good condition, combined with the price of paying someone to flash it, costs five hundred dollars last time I checked. Most people are not willing to do that. It is easier to ask them to stop using phones and give donations to people working on an acceptable mobile computer. >> F-Droid is not the answer. It is a last resort for device addicts to gain partial freedom. We should primarily suggest people to not have mobile devices >> We should teach them how to live a happy life without them, and how to do it. > > _That_, not some silly =E2=80=98statutory rape=E2=80=99 stuff above, is= what really makes RMS views startling: he is a luddite. I am hardly able to realise, how could a man who discover and devote his life to promote the most revolutionary social phenomenon of last 30 years and a man who believes that we (a) are able to and (b) should try to resist the technical progress, because besides positive consequences it entails some negative too, be the same person, but the mobile telephony is not the only point where he does so. Unfortunately, a solution does not exist. We need to pay people to make the changes we want to see in the world. I'm sure you'll be more willing to give more once you start having to manually route your trips with a dry-erase marker and a map. This will actually get us somewhere by paying for the necessary labor we need to make progress. > And yes, both mobile phones per se and =E2=80=98phones=E2=80=99 that yo= u mean (that is, handheld PCs with modem, navigator, camera, etc, etc built-in) have been enormous progress. Calling people, that make use of them, =E2=80=98addicts=E2=80=99 is nothing more reasonable, that calling =E2=80= =98addicts=E2=80=99 people who have got =E2=80=98addicted=E2=80=99 to Internet or =E2=80=98addicted=E2=80= =99 to hot water. It is possible to use a phone without addictive behavior, but most phones are not designed this way. Companies usually design apps to keep people on them all the time instead of getting what they need done and moving on with their lives. >> We should recognize the needs people fulfill with their phones, and offer replacements. We should show testimonies of people who do this every day successfully, and show that it is possible to live life with user respecting devices. > > Well, you know: it is fully possible to live you life without Internet and hot water. I could provide you testimonies from people who do this successfully, if you will. ;-) Internet and hot water do not violate our community standards. > Luddism is a path that leads no nowhere. We are not anti-technology. Evaluating technologies based on a set of community values makes rejection of technologies inevitable in some cases. When possible, we adapt current technologies to fit community standards. We use WebRTC, GitLab, Firefox, CHIRP, and VOIP, for example. Even the Amish use modern technology. To say Luddites hate modernity is false. If we can make something work with our community's values, we will use it. It is bad to abandon your values and follow society. It is bad to stay follow your values and abandon society. It is virtuous to stay true to your values and change yourself to keep contributing meaningfully to society. --=20 Caleb Herbert KE0VVT 816-892-9669 https://bluehome.net/csh --------------0EE74AF60E6C158FEB95257F Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="csh.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="csh.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Caleb Herbert n:Herbert;Caleb adr:;;PO box 234;East Lynne;Missouri;64743;United States of America email;internet:csh@bluehome.net tel;home:816-869-3111 tel;cell:816-892-9669 note:KE0VVT x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:https://bluehome.net/csh/ version:2.1 end:vcard --------------0EE74AF60E6C158FEB95257F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KbGlicmVwbGFu ZXQtZGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGlicmVwbGFuZXQtZGlzY3Vzc0BsaWJyZXBsYW5ldC5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5saWJyZXBsYW5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saWJyZXBs YW5ldC1kaXNjdXNz --------------0EE74AF60E6C158FEB95257F--