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envelope-from=neox@os-k.eu; helo=os-k.eu X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/08/01 19:01:54 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 11:56:02 -0400 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5954178698616927776==" Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" --===============5954178698616927776== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="----R5YV72KZAX7I8R77MRDAYW6LH54LQC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha512" ------R5YV72KZAX7I8R77MRDAYW6LH54LQC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----NZSU37F48TBS50T82WDEZ35GEDCYV1 ------NZSU37F48TBS50T82WDEZ35GEDCYV1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and is not mo= re modern than XMPP=2E In computer science, be young is not always a qualit= y for a protocol, and XMPP has proven many times it was evolutive and relia= ble=2E The XSF point of view is different from the Matrix/Vector one : the XSF is= a non profit foundation, in the tracks of IETF=2E They made a protocol in = the hope that it will be useful and that's it=2E You can't say the same for= Vector=2E We shouldn't have that discussion since the company behind the Matrix prot= ocol advocates for non free software, and open source when they want to be = popular=2E > If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in > capa= bilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can be > overcom= ed=2E I can't understand what do you mean=2E Conversations is developed by a ver= y small team, practically one person, and you conclude that this app that e= volves permanently has already shown all that could be shown ? Excuse me, b= ut at this time there is no client for Matrix as functional as Conversation= s (since non free software usage or advocacy is for me an anti-feature wors= t than "lack of stickers") and XMPP server softwares like Ejabberd or Proso= dy are way more reliable and powerful than Synapse (which is subject to ove= rconsumption I observed)=2E=C2=A0 It is clear that you like Matrix very well, but your arguments are wrong a= nd subjective=2E > In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development outside >= of Conversations=2E I can't agree=2E ChatSecure (for iOS) is a really active project and devs = of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and are XSF membe= rs=2E There are many forks of both, and it provides additionnal choices for= people=2E On mobile, there is only one functionnal Matrix client : Element=2E And it= advocates for non free software, especially Google one=2E > I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though=2E So maybe it fin= ds some use there=2E Have you ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care about pri= vacy, everyone should encrypt his communications=2E XMPP's modern encryptio= n (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than Olm/Megolm (because it seems Vec= tor thought that forward secrecy was an anti-feature lol)=2E Do you think the FSF should advocate for that? With all the problems that = Vector has, it would be a treason for people who trust the FSF=2E I can understand you like Element because it has stickers and it is beauti= ful=2E This is the same with other software that are unethical but beautifu= l=2E Free software is about freedom, not popularity Librement, Le 1 ao=C3=BBt 2020 19:34:56 GMT+02:00, Denver Gingerich a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: >On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: >> The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't have goo= d >> clients for Mobile, > >You mention this repeatedly without explaining why Conversations has "bad= design"=2E Most people I know love the design of Conversations, so I have= trouble seeing why Conversations is holding back XMPP in some way=2E > >> doesn't have modern features > >The only feature you have explicitly mentioned is "stickers"=2E I'm not = sure why this is an important feature for FSF to have in a protocol they wa= nt to promote=2E Are there other "modern features" that XMPP is missing? > >> or even a coherent standard=2E > >As we've mentioned, there are coherent standards for XMPP=2E If you want= a client that supports the important standards, use Gajim or Conversations= =2E > >> So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we can >> attract new contributors that may want modern features=2E > >Per above, please tell us which "modern features" you mean=2E Thanks! > >Denver >https://jmp=2Echat/ ------NZSU37F48TBS50T82WDEZ35GEDCYV1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and is not more modern than XMPP. In computer science, be young is not always a quality for a protocol, and XMPP has proven many times it was evolutive and reliable. The XSF point of view is different from the Matrix/Vector one : the XSF is a non profit foundation, in the tracks of IETF. They made a protocol in the hope that it will be useful and that's it. You can't say the same for Vector. We shouldn't have that discussion since the company behind the Matrix protocol advocates for non free software, and open source when they want to be popular. > If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in > capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can be > overcomed. I can't understand what do you mean. Conversations is developed by a very small team, practically one person, and you conclude that this app that evolves permanently has already shown all that could be shown ? Excuse me, but at this time there is no client for Matrix as functional as Conversations (since non free software usage or advocacy is for me an anti-feature worst than "lack of stickers") and XMPP server softwares like Ejabberd or Prosody are way more reliable and powerful than Synapse (which is subject to overconsumption I observed). It is clear that you like Matrix very well, but your arguments are wrong and subjective. > In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development outside > of Conversations. I can't agree. ChatSecure (for iOS) is a really active project and devs of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and are XSF members. There are many forks of both, and it provides additionnal choices for people. On mobile, there is only one functionnal Matrix client : Element. And it advocates for non free software, especially Google one. > I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though. So maybe it finds some use there. Have you ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care about privacy, everyone should encrypt his communications. XMPP's modern encryption (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than Olm/Megolm (because it seems Vector thought that forward secrecy was an anti-feature lol). Do you think the FSF should advocate for that? With all the problems that Vector has, it would be a treason for people who trust the FSF. I can understand you like Element because it has stickers and it is beautiful. This is the same with other software that are unethical but beautiful. Free software is about freedom, not popularity Librement, Le 1 août 2020 19:34:56 GMT+02:00, Denver Gingerich a écrit : On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't have good clients for Mobile, You mention this repeatedly without explaining why Conversations has "bad design". Most people I know love the design of Conversations, so I have trouble seeing why Conversations is holding back XMPP in some way. doesn't have modern features The only feature you have explicitly mentioned is "stickers". I'm not sure why this is an important feature for FSF to have in a protocol they want to promote. Are there other "modern features" that XMPP is missing? or even a coherent standard. As we've mentioned, there are coherent standards for XMPP. If you want a client that supports the important standards, use Gajim or Conversations. So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we can attract new contributors that may want modern features. Per above, please tell us which "modern features" you mean. Thanks! Denver [1]https://jmp.chat/ References 1. https://jmp.chat/ ------NZSU37F48TBS50T82WDEZ35GEDCYV1-- ------R5YV72KZAX7I8R77MRDAYW6LH54LQC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQHQBAABCgA6MxxBZHJpZW4gQm91cm1hdWx0IChOZW9YIG9uIEZyZWVub2RlKSA8 bmVveEBvcy1rLmV1PgUCXyX0XwAKCRDjtMf8QSAaU/iuDACgSTSwr0VsIqk+WUMu lPivK1LWu+qJQfpdoTEz91suW1PjeepHnY+6klX2M0X3OQvxelTy2wOWzutkG5Wx hQgU2dcTtyVzMeE7YbnEDTQopaMjS3Zr02Xk5+nun8RNMczMrqkJmum5Mvj/7OI0 mL9Ch6qYQ0JTGImSkt80NSk1EpPqD5FHEfTVDSQlQO/g+rsfcj3QAL32gSsDSBJC Y0l6jaGNUyDuXHXSHEEStqcEd9Te1MCu8a5RsxBhGBnHjBsnfoGV78Va6wp8q8Fd Numv0we3XlHJkPmc5DkA5EfvsnUpOSHN7BYXpwaEEN1Zi1n1ibhv56itiuuZCuG/ b24rpVyoMPDv2qcngOlO2tFXwdqUleTj9It7jQviiHH3GgB3w4PsV0FzBNUFYAMl F3TYD8Z/zhnvt1gTLi5G1U5a/Ut6VX+uhTVfTPK9ozZEOmzYEfm7wD6gND5C8z6f zdU9ctqmHSOkwWuMsh9L9j8+90ab/79xkzn/clCSXb9bXsE= =SLWh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------R5YV72KZAX7I8R77MRDAYW6LH54LQC-- --===============5954178698616927776== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KbGlicmVwbGFu ZXQtZGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGlicmVwbGFuZXQtZGlzY3Vzc0BsaWJyZXBsYW5ldC5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5saWJyZXBsYW5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saWJyZXBs YW5ldC1kaXNjdXNz --===============5954178698616927776==--