Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all

[gregor <podrzaj.gregor@gmail.com>]

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hi Deb, all.

hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes:

i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same seems 
to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of decades of a lag.

reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another planet.

if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would happen, i 
would bet my arm that it wouldn't.

your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of freedom, 
a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of.

the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations of how to 
conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no need for 
critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the ancients 
called wisdom)

those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign country. 
now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same force. 
in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up with. (and also has 
to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as such, 
"struggle" wouldn't be futile)

let me walk trough your letter Deb

On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote:
>     Hi,
>     As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running
>     FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half
>     dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS
>     treating them differently,
differently? as oppose to what? samely?
>   hitting on them at a conference,
oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she 
approves of it?) how does that work?
>   loudly
>     interrupting a young person's talk
only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, interupting 
someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched dr. RMS, 
and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i would 
be honored and would most likely have to revisit my position for which i 
was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am sure he would go 
revisiting his.
>   or involving them in a mortifying
>     public joke about virginity.
mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing 
joke, once you hear it you die
>   In particular, I have had several young
>     women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because
>     RMS might yell at me."
hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a smile and a 
cheer fills the room.
>     Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to
>     these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software
>     representatives were awful to them.
were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were awful 
to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses everything 
was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends feelings, those 
weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around what has happened to 
educated people of usa. to me it seems like those couples should divorce 
if such a disharmony in understanding of the world is between them. i 
just don't get it. maybe it was like a mans club, where women are 
ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge point, no doubt. As i 
recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral pronoun which is not sexist at all
>   Having a leader who inspires others
>     to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net
>     positive for the free software movement.
contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to be the way 
you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the whole world. it 
lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you constantly argue 
against your own principle.
>     Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the
>     people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives
>     choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer time?
truth shall prevail. meanwhile bombs are still killing the innocent ... 
ever, ever, ever much?
>     I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still
>     support him. What's sad is that the free software movement should be
>     much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting
>     people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement.
in all your posts you have managed to belittle yourself in my eyes 
completely. mind you, couldn't it be argued that dr. RMS is harassed and 
bullied? one could even naively ask by whom? (wink wink)
>   We should
>     be able to work on free software without that gate.
i can not see the connection between "promote computer user freedom" 
e.g. free software project and a gate. what gate does dr. RMS present to 
you that inhibits your work for the computer user freedom?
>     You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand that
>     it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that letter have
>     spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free software
>     *with RMS.* He hasn't listened.
could it be he listened but didn't react the way you wanted?
>   It's completely false to draw a
>     parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete strangers at
>     an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free software
>     supporters.
would need to see some examples finally of this rudeness you keep 
referring to. try finding ones that weren't provoked so as not to waste 
more time with a straw man. (down below you used open hardware, is the 
perfect example where one could scream: not open, free/libre - after so 
many years in the movement you still spread propaganda mixing free and open)
>     RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving it and
>     that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the struggle
>     for freedom though.
the freedom you are fighting for here is known in my world as "political 
correctness". see, its political. FSF is not a political platform, find 
another platform for (in my opinion highjacked, using grassroots and 
perverting it for some agenda unbeknown to me) movement of political 
correctness.
i stand strongly on my political views, but see, they are not important 
for FSF, i mean: for the part where they intersect they are the same, 
where they don't intersect i won't bother pushing my flat earth theory 
on FSF... was a parable, am actually still a globe-er :),  ohoho and by 
the way, planet is not a correct term, since etimologically it means 
plane not globe, so lets all start calling the planet globet)
>   And there are many aspects of even computer freedom
>     that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against
>     persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open Hardware,

here you go, this is the point i see myself yelling also

>   pushing
>     for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of algorithms
>     that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the criminal
>     justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like drones or
>     amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals.
for some of those you should make your own foundation. some could find a 
sweet spot in FSF projects. also with some i disagree - technology is 
not bad per se, it's the use of it that can be bad.
> The struggle for
>     freedom has to be more than one person and more than one organization.
exactly. why highjack dr. RMS and FSF, when you should make your own, 
thus making it "more than one organization"??? and you again do some 
word twisting - struggle for freedom is not what the stated mission of 
FSF is ("mission to promote computer user freedom.").
>     If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I fear
>     that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that would be
>     terrible because software freedom is extremely important and that's why
>     I'm continuing to engage here.

hmm, seems to me that by equating people's concerns with your own 
concerns (or of a group of people) puts you in the position of the 
arbiter. you like to do that over and over again, i wonder if knowingly?

i am sure FSF is willing to listen to all concerns. what they do with 
them might be different form one concern to other one. and again, 
different from what you want.

Once i wrote a personal letter to dr. RMS, and to my big surprise, i got 
an answer. me, just a schmuck, i never expected for him to bother with 
some small talk with just some guy. he took the time. he took the time.

>     Best,
>     Deb
>     On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva <[1]lxoliva@fsfla.org>
>     wrote:
>
>       On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson <[2]deb@eximiousproductions.com>
>       wrote:
>       > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve
>       former FSF
>       > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at
>       conferences or MIT
>       > and many, many free software creators.
>       That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into account,
>       before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and attackers,
>       and
>       before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and distortions
>       to
>       spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have failed to
>       spark.
>       These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the legitimacy
>       of
>       claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who
>       opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those of the
>       corporate-funded coalition.  That may be illogical, but it's often a
>       valuable heuristics.  Call it karma if you wish.
>       Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual sexual
>       harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight from the
>       source.  Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people on dates,
>       keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of the
>       existence
>       of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution against
>       leaps
>       to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry and
>       being
>       loud are not it IMHO.  Hearsay about the same half dozen rumors over
>       a
>       period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own investigations
>       haven't
>       hit a dead end before something concrete popped up.  I encourage you
>       to
>       let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep me on
>       copy.
>       > The vast majority of the people who signed the letter asking for
>       RMS
>       > to step down, care deeply about free software.
>       I encourage them (you) to behave as such, instead of associating
>       with
>       historical opponents, and working so hard to divide us.  It's become
>       really hard to believe in that commitment, and in good intentions
>       behind
>       the actions, given the present circumstances.
>       --
>       Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker  [3]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>          Free Software Activist         GNU Toolchain Engineer
>               Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar
>
> References
>
>     1. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
>     2. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
>     3. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

i grew up in a socialist country (oh, did i mention that usa bombed it, 
yes) and what i am seeing now in the west reminds me of the brainwash 
propaganda i grew up in 40 odd years back. and yes, is totally wrong and 
always makes me a bit angry when westerners say a communist country, it 
shows the lack of knowledge. all them (us) commies were socialist 
countries, please be politically correct when you call them. also china 
today is not and never was communist, it is socialist. read up, educate, 
and be correct.

also so many times i hear americans this americans that. so politically 
incorrect, when referring to citizens of usa and calling them americans, 
you "insult" all central and south americans and canadians. please be 
politically correct.

etc.

if you caught my point, there is not always the need to be politically 
correct, if the exchange of information was correct and no party of 
exchange was insulted, then the strict semantic can loosen up. but if 
you keep being insulted by this, that and my uncle, well then you might 
be quite a bigot (for the many times you've insulted south americans, 
and a billion and a half socialist chinese people, etc)

Notice also that i began the letter with an emotionally charged personal 
views/feelings, just as you did, again to show you the mirror.

So, as i began with quite an emotional tone, let me finish with an 
apology. We, the people should stand united in our differences and 
should try understanding each other and even when we don't, we shouldn't 
impose ways of behavior on others (of course, all within roza luxembourg 
maxim). is not really that hard, even if my reply doesn't show it much. 
So i hope you can accept my apologies for being blunt and a bit rude 
(when i grew up, back then, that kind of exchange wasn't necessarily 
being seen as rude at all)

I hope, truly sincerely hope that one day, we (you and me and all) will 
no longer fight where fight isn't due. and class struggle becomes one 
class struggle, all class struggle. it feels even, that once not 
divided, victory is here.


i salute you all from once socialist country

g


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   hi Deb, all.

   hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes:

   i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same
   seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of decades of a
   lag.

   reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another planet.

   if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would happen, i
   would bet my arm that it wouldn't.
   your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of
   freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of.

   the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations of how to
   conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no need for
   critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the ancients
   called wisdom)

   those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign country.
   now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same
   force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up with. (and
   also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as
   such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile)

   let me walk trough your letter Deb

   On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote:

   Hi,
   As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running
   FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half
   dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS
   treating them differently,

   differently? as oppose to what? samely?

 hitting on them at a conference,

   oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she
   approves of it?) how does that work?

 loudly
   interrupting a young person's talk

   only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, interupting
   someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched dr. RMS,
   and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i
   would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my position for
   which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am sure he
   would go revisiting his.

 or involving them in a mortifying
   public joke about virginity.

   mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing
   joke, once you hear it you die

 In particular, I have had several young
   women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because
   RMS might yell at me."

   hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a smile and a
   cheer fills the room.

   Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to
   these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software
   representatives were awful to them.

   were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were
   awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses
   everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends
   feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around
   what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems like those
   couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of the
   world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a mans
   club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge
   point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral pronoun
   which is not sexist at all

 Having a leader who inspires others
   to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net
   positive for the free software movement.

   contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to be the
   way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the whole
   world. it lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you constantly
   argue against your own principle.

   Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the
   people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives
   choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer time?

   truth shall prevail. meanwhile bombs are still killing the innocent ...
   ever, ever, ever much?

   I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still
   support him. What's sad is that the free software movement should be
   much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting
   people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement.

   in all your posts you have managed to belittle yourself in my eyes
   completely. mind you, couldn't it be argued that dr. RMS is harassed
   and bullied? one could even naively ask by whom? (wink wink)

 We should
   be able to work on free software without that gate.

   i can not see the connection between "promote computer user freedom"
   e.g. free software project and a gate. what gate does dr. RMS present
   to you that inhibits your work for the computer user freedom?

   You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand that
   it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that letter have
   spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free software
   *with RMS.* He hasn't listened.

   could it be he listened but didn't react the way you wanted?

 It's completely false to draw a
   parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete strangers at
   an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free software
   supporters.

   would need to see some examples finally of this rudeness you keep
   referring to. try finding ones that weren't provoked so as not to waste
   more time with a straw man. (down below you used open hardware, is the
   perfect example where one could scream: not open, free/libre - after so
   many years in the movement you still spread propaganda mixing free and
   open)

   RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving it and
   that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the struggle
   for freedom though.

   the freedom you are fighting for here is known in my world as
   "political correctness". see, its political. FSF is not a political
   platform, find another platform for (in my opinion highjacked, using
   grassroots and perverting it for some agenda unbeknown to me) movement
   of political correctness.
   i stand strongly on my political views, but see, they are not important
   for FSF, i mean: for the part where they intersect they are the same,
   where they don't intersect i won't bother pushing my flat earth theory
   on FSF... was a parable, am actually still a globe-er :),  ohoho and by
   the way, planet is not a correct term, since etimologically it means
   plane not globe, so lets all start calling the planet globet)

 And there are many aspects of even computer freedom
   that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against
   persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open Hardware,

   here you go, this is the point i see myself yelling also

 pushing
   for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of algorithms
   that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the criminal
   justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like drones or
   amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals.

   for some of those you should make your own foundation. some could find
   a sweet spot in FSF projects. also with some i disagree - technology is
   not bad per se, it's the use of it that can be bad.

The struggle for
   freedom has to be more than one person and more than one organization.

   exactly. why highjack dr. RMS and FSF, when you should make your own,
   thus making it "more than one organization"??? and you again do some
   word twisting - struggle for freedom is not what the stated mission of
   FSF is ("mission to promote computer user freedom.").

   If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I fear
   that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that would be
   terrible because software freedom is extremely important and that's why
   I'm continuing to engage here.

   hmm, seems to me that by equating people's concerns with your own
   concerns (or of a group of people) puts you in the position of the
   arbiter. you like to do that over and over again, i wonder if
   knowingly?

   i am sure FSF is willing to listen to all concerns. what they do with
   them might be different form one concern to other one. and  again,
   different from what you want.

   Once i wrote a personal letter to dr. RMS, and to my big surprise, i
   got an answer. me, just a schmuck, i never expected for him to bother
   with some small talk with just some guy. he took the time. he took the
   time.

   Best,
   Deb
   On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva [1]<[1]lxoliva@fsfla.org>
   wrote:

     On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson [2]<[2]deb@eximiousproductions.com>
     wrote:
     > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve
     former FSF
     > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at
     conferences or MIT
     > and many, many free software creators.
     That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into account,
     before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and attackers,
     and
     before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and distortions
     to
     spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have failed to
     spark.
     These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the legitimacy
     of
     claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who
     opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those of the
     corporate-funded coalition.  That may be illogical, but it's often a
     valuable heuristics.  Call it karma if you wish.
     Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual sexual
     harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight from the
     source.  Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people on dates,
     keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of the
     existence
     of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution against
     leaps
     to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry and
     being
     loud are not it IMHO.  Hearsay about the same half dozen rumors over
     a
     period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own investigations
     haven't
     hit a dead end before something concrete popped up.  I encourage you
     to
     let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep me on
     copy.
     > The vast majority of the people who signed the letter asking for
     RMS
     > to step down, care deeply about free software.
     I encourage them (you) to behave as such, instead of associating
     with
     historical opponents, and working so hard to divide us.  It's become
     really hard to believe in that commitment, and in good intentions
     behind
     the actions, given the present circumstances.
     --
     Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker  [3][3]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
        Free Software Activist         GNU Toolchain Engineer
             Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar

References

   1. [4]mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
   2. [5]mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
   3. [6]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/


_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
[7]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
[8]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

   i grew up in a socialist country (oh, did i mention that usa bombed it,
   yes) and what i am seeing now in the west reminds me of the brainwash
   propaganda i grew up in 40 odd years back. and yes, is totally wrong
   and always makes me a bit angry when westerners say a communist
   country, it shows the lack of knowledge. all them (us) commies were
   socialist countries, please be politically correct when you call them.
   also china today is not and never was communist, it is socialist. read
   up, educate, and be correct.

   also so many times i hear americans this americans that. so politically
   incorrect, when referring to citizens of usa and calling them
   americans, you "insult" all central and south americans and canadians.
   please be politically correct.

   etc.

   if you caught my point, there is not always the need to be politically
   correct, if the exchange of information was correct and no party of
   exchange was insulted, then the strict semantic can loosen up. but if
   you keep being insulted by this, that and my uncle, well then you might
   be quite a bigot (for the many times you've insulted south americans,
   and a billion and a half socialist chinese people, etc)

   Notice also that i began the letter with an emotionally charged
   personal views/feelings, just as you did, again to show you the mirror.

   So, as i began with quite an emotional tone, let me finish with an
   apology. We, the people should stand united in our differences and
   should try understanding each other and even when we don't, we
   shouldn't impose ways of behavior on others (of course, all within roza
   luxembourg maxim). is not really that hard, even if my reply doesn't
   show it much. So i hope you can accept my apologies for being blunt and
   a bit rude (when i grew up, back then, that kind of exchange wasn't
   necessarily being seen as rude at all)
   I hope, truly sincerely hope that one day, we (you and me and all) will
   no longer fight where fight isn't due. and class struggle becomes one
   class struggle, all class struggle. it feels even, that once not
   divided, victory is here.

   i salute you all from once socialist country

   g

References

   1. mailto:[1]lxoliva@fsfla.org
   2. mailto:[2]deb@eximiousproductions.com
   3. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
   4. mailto:lxoliva@fsfla.org
   5. mailto:deb@eximiousproductions.com
   6. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/
   7. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
   8. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss

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