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User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <1596185910.1161.0@disroot.org> References: <1595541394.1159.3@disroot.org> <1596039936.1150.2@disroot.org> <20200730043725.GC25289@ossguy.com> <1596125074.1189.0@disroot.org> <20200730162745.GE25289@ossguy.com> <1596138703.28021.1@disroot.org> <20200731030048.GI25289@ossguy.com> <1596185910.1161.0@disroot.org> Message-ID: <2E654784-A437-418F-993D-8535D29922AF@os-k.eu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Autocrypt: addr=neox@os-k.eu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGNBF6IUkYBDADWXOxTQcS7Xn0Q9yhiUhAgFcy4ZklGgRLdi+BePprVU/gVu5KBfNDFyIFvtfb7 E4hDTChx4LoCkzqQp4nC5RTI1/HvZ4vY0dIvNmsC1AhuyKREzlKuNpN4PTjRDdUDm7GqQAHNLYac 9YavmQeOMbA1T2MlQgRwJMBxSV933riwrFpW4BI0BqXbEMwBIIaJN101RiGLNG2WYMpBSz/RI26G A7QTGzyxeGgBRWV6xfi0o2QPglt9KQbIkumqbMInqHZHsRnL+RHiFbOSEHINLJ64XKAACjPcslTc adjEUIZUezUcNZ+DohpEFCocFlDxuugIe3ZIztdA95LXNY5vqjaEhXl1nMe35/uzy9zft7ZDvJz0 vTXr+PBzUYN0tYWI7+RhRvfvTr2uA2YNyvLdxZh8BA+TfQJmLAY2tKMmvgmxLGxxTTH22mKV1SbK enDM+gbOYw8kGF9Y6gNArZn19BJvKH+bhbbSfVu2CpS3yQXuWZfi9ndk0fIIh+yj8Cj021cAEQEA AbQyQWRyaWVuIEJvdXJtYXVsdCAoTmVvWCBvbiBGcmVlbm9kZSkgPG5lb3hAb3Mtay5ldT6JAdQE EwEIAD4WIQTd0IWDfE3PkHJa0BfjtMf8QSAaUwUCXohSSAIbAwUJAeEzgAULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDjtMf8QSAaU6ZLDACEMGira18WM4x48pAh1RAmCxFz+bRLMXaDEU0MXDgZ FzKwUy3ujkaRGwjd8IlL/fmlePMivaGyzCdMVPIfgrH15o2vjFfcA2xMjkYk/6HlRMzmLBCWNLdf 3og1NINF1U6hFFfwaSTvG9YLGx9MGM4kpKY8NhhwLZ+KtzZSYfQH3nRbHn1Ms8BB2FrAWqrLbNYP mhFNs2/Y3llBh9mVJMuNUs3J0aX/TBaHFb2FDSVPTFg2iNmD/dVmBbx5IzhK45pS62UibL4qW7te wbttPyAdkhLhBpirIN6UwYV7Cfw2NpUgglrUDRC8tfsc1x4ggNadgVwuQCpMaxc4vvqGHUFIuQm0 2nkeQyeQmfu52ST5KRxiJvsh+oSO/Awsp5XcFwUpsbNiiy0DsN4F1PamT+s9v/mnuA6UZWt2J4SA oJThdSDo8f4QXH3K10rCzKkCf7uJ/+Ft/28yH+4Jz/UQWfof0PBqd6iFzCYkB0dYo8jUpqZoLF+3 lozheND0PlyTzoy5AY0EXohSRwEMAKlw//HuUiVz6wc9tnRxX52W1xa95br7GmqAW+SjIRjK4SCf XYnnBoxmKiK6OxSAU1wQKDksUzufwXiueIODtMjkkuA1ycLEhBPk2vJ+dEV3mXenVosLMWdMePbj 46XkdUcRvWiqlGsmth5S+f57tGz5Pd467cbH6Qjbpb21QUN3r7oC+Cn8e1nv6oN2OOsyR1hv//Kx PccLuwglOn1n+/15sccIM9eNgfHAWVy9KTMKwOwznc/yogVO1hmJFbb98K9dlE1Bluz7oUnUF3Ai HvYe6xqRv5mJ9fZDDDqFWH/nlBiEWxDCifNx+xi5ZdvYc4+O88pImPZi+6tLfxQyegUXr0mzcBXo l1rNTWxZQek4KwVpsJ+bMHR2C+HaT9C6YM3vX0gyeqVmSxll9yZWdrF521oTGJZJEMAgxxHrWiKW oLUrxb25zsaO4/czB/OminLqr+oIp14RzThW58OqIhyW/0/5wyt2rpTZSrHZK7lW+aOoq9nYvpUF n3+YH5TnXQARAQABiQG8BBgBCAAmFiEE3dCFg3xNz5ByWtAX47TH/EEgGlMFAl6IUkcCGwwFCQHh M4AACgkQ47TH/EEgGlNNrAv9HEkkDVUdgPYLpUPT9tyDqJXoUQ3rLRp3VysgwfdSVoiN4Cn8gdpo I2v6EQryv15yvF7+0iCe3UsajzP7pSL5sTy3BtmRMItuZ63ePghM9Wyb0v07ocWtxC2/KM4naS8f 6n0C8EupKkxukFrTfqqeFCwcDAX6qfGhypk6HwhfhwDpPAaCRVv8VTYSnLLVQMfPwUGKKkVarYWO QQGCEd/bUTaz6XgJTL6OipKeKBZ/UxWinh2TZWAkUBU9VNGH/T6ewaJ55iS4MmAPeOKOjNTyiuII W49MqV6iGVIrAR9KIddy6j3jGXa0c++GV4C3BurE+h0p9ZBaQXvbPh4j45winD+Hk2hV1/+iJ6fN dGmBSdPxQuqIwVPwJWuGeV0FaHvtW2O9ZQ4EzvK+h+L6+7jTIlW4E2k/sTj4zL/M4JtDsOENywNR /c9s5+3YS8VjFK2huPhgsb36tj4C8PrdKntdEYb5b2B2LCjCXqS4AShqvhmM+pf8FAVUNkcEabvU wFKk Received-SPF: none client-ip=51.91.255.83; envelope-from=neox@os-k.eu; helo=os-k.eu X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/07/31 05:12:48 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:51:02 -0400 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0974515256008016856==" Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" --===============0974515256008016856== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----6FHQ75704QQDKN2X93DG7VH3NBQBY1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------6FHQ75704QQDKN2X93DG7VH3NBQBY1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For instance, Conversations is in the FSD, as confirmed free software=2E https://directory=2Efsf=2Eorg/wiki/Conversations=2Eim I don't understand your statements=2E XMPP is used by major companies like= Whatsapp for example, if you need a proprietary one (so Facebook use it)= =2E=20 Conversations is GPL v3, so this is copyleft isn't it ? The Matrix protoco= l is not especially copyleft nor XMPP=2E These are just spec documents that= describes functions=2E If Matrix is under copyleft, Vector is actually vio= lating its own license ! Conversations advocates for free software, unlike Element for example=2E T= his is a huge difference=2E Librement, Le 31 juillet 2020 10:58:30 GMT+02:00, Msavoritias a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: >As I said they mainly had issues with the UI/UX and some features that=20 >were missing like stickers=2E I searched for the second one and there=20 >didn't seem to be an intention to implement stickers=2E > >Things don't seems to be changing on that front though=2E The last client= =20 >on that page Zom moved to matrix too=2E >If you ask me they are different crowds=2E XMPP is for techies with no=20 >chance of going mainstream=2E >Matrix takes a more radical approach and even now it is used more than=20 >XMPP=2E With XMPP being mostly gone since Google and Facebook Stopped=20 >using it=2E Gone outside of the tech communities that is=2E Only place I= =20 >see recommending it is for the enccryption=2E > >If you ask me I would prefer a copyleft protocol=2E Because neither XMPP= =20 >or Matrix can stop themselves from being EEE=2E But I will take what i=20 >can get=2E > >In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development outside=20 >of Conversations=2E I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though= =2E >So maybe it finds some use there=2E > >I like the standarization you said the community is trying=2E But I think= =20 >its too late for that=2E With all the fragmentation and people moving on= =2E > >You are right that people still use it but I think it is more like IRC=2E= =20 >It is good for the minority but you are not going to convince new users= =20 >to join there=2E >We should look how to convince new users to join in modern protocols=2E= =20 >If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in=20 >capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can be=20 >overcomed=2E > >MSavoritias > > >On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 03:00, Denver Gingerich =20 >wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 09:51:43PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: >>> Conversations is badly designed=2E I am talking from experience=20 >>> trying for >>> people to adopt it=2E >>=20 >> I haven't had any bad experiences getting people to adopt=20 >> Conversations=2E Maybe you could be more specific about what=20 >> particular aspects of Conversations they have issues with? >>=20 >>> Every other client listed on this page: >>> <> for android is basical= ly=20 >>> with >>> design from twenty years ago=2E >>> There doesn't seem to be new clients popping up=2E for mobile at=20 >>> least=2E >>> In contrast Matrix <> has a lot of new= =20 >>> clients >>> with active development=2E >>=20 >> I agree that the XMPP community could make a prettier clients page=20 >> with screenshots and such, like Matrix has=2E There are at least as=20 >> many XMPP clients under active development as there are Matrix=20 >> clients=2E >>=20 >>> Its not the problem of something Conversations are missing=2E=20 >>> Although it >>> misses a lot of stuff=2E Like stickers and widgets=2E >>> The thing is that every client I installed had different=20 >>> capabilities >>> entirely=2E It made sense when I read the phylosophy behind XMPP and= =20 >>> Matrix >>> though=2E Matrix wants to be ,from my perspective, a coherent=20 >>> standard=2E One >>> piece=2E XMPP is more modular=2E Which explains the fragmentation in= =20 >>> the XMPP >>> ecosystem=2E >>=20 >> True that is another thing the XMPP community could work on=2E We do= =20 >> have compliance suites that will tell you if your client meets a=20 >> certain "coherent standard": >>=20 >> >>=20 >> However, we haven't done enough work to advertise this or certify=20 >> clients, so it's not yet easy to benefit from this work as a person=20 >> new to XMPP=2E >>=20 >>=20 >> There seem to be enough people using XMPP for it to continue on an=20 >> upward trajectory=2E It might not see the hockey stick growth that=20 >> other protocols do, but it also hasn't flamed out, which I fear may=20 >> happen with some of the newer, more hyped protocols=2E >>=20 >> Denver >> > ------6FHQ75704QQDKN2X93DG7VH3NBQBY1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" For instance, Conversations is in the FSD, as confirmed free software. [1]https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Conversations.im I don't understand your statements. XMPP is used by major companies like Whatsapp for example, if you need a proprietary one (so Facebook use it). Conversations is GPL v3, so this is copyleft isn't it ? The Matrix protocol is not especially copyleft nor XMPP. These are just spec documents that describes functions. If Matrix is under copyleft, Vector is actually violating its own license ! Conversations advocates for free software, unlike Element for example. This is a huge difference. Librement, Le 31 juillet 2020 10:58:30 GMT+02:00, Msavoritias a écrit : As I said they mainly had issues with the UI/UX and some features that were missing like stickers. I searched for the second one and there didn't seem to be an intention to implement stickers. Things don't seems to be changing on that front though. The last client on that page Zom moved to matrix too. If you ask me they are different crowds. XMPP is for techies with no chance of going mainstream. Matrix takes a more radical approach and even now it is used more than XMPP. With XMPP being mostly gone since Google and Facebook Stopped using it. Gone outside of the tech communities that is. Only place I see recommending it is for the enccryption. If you ask me I would prefer a copyleft protocol. Because neither XMPP or Matrix can stop themselves from being EEE. But I will take what i can get. In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development outside of Conversations. I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though. So maybe it finds some use there. I like the standarization you said the community is trying. But I think its too late for that. With all the fragmentation and people moving on. You are right that people still use it but I think it is more like IRC. It is good for the minority but you are not going to convince new users to join there. We should look how to convince new users to join in modern protocols. If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can be overcomed. MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 03:00, Denver Gingerich wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 09:51:43PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: Conversations is badly designed. I am talking from experience trying for people to adopt it. I haven't had any bad experiences getting people to adopt Conversations. Maybe you could be more specific about what particular aspects of Conversations they have issues with? Every other client listed on this page: <<[2]https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html>> for android is basically with design from twenty years ago. There doesn't seem to be new clients popping up. for mobile at least. In contrast Matrix <<[3]https://matrix.org/clients/>> has a lot of new clients with active development. I agree that the XMPP community could make a prettier clients page with screenshots and such, like Matrix has. There are at least as many XMPP clients under active development as there are Matrix clients. Its not the problem of something Conversations are missing. Although it misses a lot of stuff. Like stickers and widgets. The thing is that every client I installed had different capabilities entirely. It made sense when I read the phylosophy behind XMPP and Matrix though. Matrix wants to be ,from my perspective, a coherent standard. One piece. XMPP is more modular. Which explains the fragmentation in the XMPP ecosystem. True that is another thing the XMPP community could work on. We do have compliance suites that will tell you if your client meets a certain "coherent standard": <[4]https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im> However, we haven't done enough work to advertise this or certify clients, so it's not yet easy to benefit from this work as a person new to XMPP. There seem to be enough people using XMPP for it to continue on an upward trajectory. It might not see the hockey stick growth that other protocols do, but it also hasn't flamed out, which I fear may happen with some of the newer, more hyped protocols. Denver <[5]https://jmp.chat/> References 1. https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Conversations.im 2. https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html 3. https://matrix.org/clients/ 4. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im 5. https://jmp.chat/ ------6FHQ75704QQDKN2X93DG7VH3NBQBY1-- --===============0974515256008016856== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KbGlicmVwbGFu ZXQtZGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGlicmVwbGFuZXQtZGlzY3Vzc0BsaWJyZXBsYW5ldC5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5saWJyZXBsYW5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saWJyZXBs YW5ldC1kaXNjdXNz --===============0974515256008016856==--