From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: AS22989 209.51.188.0/24 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.7 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL,SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FFEB1F852 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:58:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:41056 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n84Mz-0007IH-2U for e@80x24.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:58:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54324) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7psh-0000rk-JB for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 21:30:30 -0500 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:55590) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7psX-0006AD-RN for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 21:30:22 -0500 Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4JZ7gq2J1qzDxsK; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:30:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1642041015; bh=4h1WJQ+nWQNPnkyk1klFeT/Yzq4mDdKXJaf2g3RQwdM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=qkvobuDVNKbq0MHj0RbdDhLbY34xdheYuI+SJzI+gKzqvML6m5eeqpjf/3EimUCOD 32vKPtmXsL9umBwRRCyZq5XASBC75xcaaNPTm/DA42lXEd+vuFyUA1fF4fmDwq4+8E QJAcDIm+ymgfWi4Tr5IlqD0OqkMUa9l33Q7nCx+E= X-Riseup-User-ID: D4E8C79C50101D8FC24444A4BA50D261FB0D7C1B2F7CBE2BF53ECD3507578698 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JZ7gq0ql8z5vks; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:30:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:30:15 -0800 From: vidak@riseup.net To: Andrew Yu Cc: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Subject: Re: A mathematical, non-corruptable, algorithmic, democratic and free system of government and society In-Reply-To: <20220110170229.fcyfjjlvlo7v424g@raspberrypi> References: <20220110170229.fcyfjjlvlo7v424g@raspberrypi> Message-ID: <24427a402ea17df3f23603f0c2d57b82@riseup.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=198.252.153.129; envelope-from=vidak@riseup.net; helo=mx1.riseup.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:42:00 -0500 X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" On 2022-01-11 01:02, Andrew Yu via libreplanet-discuss wrote: > Hi, friends at Libreplanet. > > During a discussion in #fsf, we were quite critical of modern society, > especially on copyright, patents, "intellectual property", healthcare > and Capitalism. A (possibly sarcastic of modern society) suggestion > was raised to build islands in the middle of oceans from plastic waste > and run a free society there. This is obviously infeasible, but it > reinforced my thoughts that free software isn't enough. With people > constantly in poverty, healthcare being so expensive in countries such > as the United States, companies and individuals focusing on profit > rather than genuine good for society, etc., free software is a step to > bring us closer to good-old freedom, but with a society that hasn't > woken up from the endless advertising (brainwashing) of cooprporations > and governments, we'll almost inevitably be forced to use nonfree > software, and have our right to freedom violated in countless other > ways. > > I thought: Why aren't we doing a great job convincing users to switch to > free software as a replacement to the proprietary software they use? > Some classmates that I tried convincing into using Trisquel GNU/Linux > noted that most modern programs that they use day-to-day only run on > Android, Apple iOS, Apple macOS and Microsoft Windows, and these > themselves are nonfree software that they can't escape using (For > example, school here in China requires the use of WeChat and Tencent > Meetings to have online classes, and does not have a way to let me > dial-in by phone, despite my efforts explaining the Constitution and my > rights to deny a contract I disagree with. [1] They even went as far as > saying "We don't care what the Constitution says, you play by our > rules", which was a surprise to me.). I reconsidered the situation, > explained to them what freedom is in this context, and linked them to a > comprimise, Deepin Linux, a (GNU/)Linux distribution targeted at new > Chinese users who need WeChat, Tencent Meetings and all that in the > application center. This was a comprimise, but this is the best I could > do given their situation. Personally I use virtual machines that > reset to snapshots every boot to run these programs, sometimes even run > a GNU/Linux distribution inside the virtual machine and use Wine from > there. They aren't technically skilled and couldn't handle this. > Some sources state that US courts require the use of Zoom, which is > frustrating to think about. > > I asked myself: Why do people choose convenience over freedom? This is > still a mystery to me, as this one of the problems in the to-solve list > of the upcoming project. I have a theory that it's a combination of > social pressure and coorporate brainwashing, as companies are taking > advantage of human psycology, creating an information cocoon of > "convenience is the most important thing in your life", pushing products > to users with social engineering in order to profit from sales or the > information of their users. They do everything for profit; they even > sign contracts with schools to push their products to students, often > with the students unable to reject. In this case, how the school and > government handles this situation is a good example of short-term > thinking (Or, it might be not caring about their students, I hope it's > the first, but my conversation with school makes me afraid it's the > latter.) > > My family has been to the US in 2013. One of my biggest negative > impressions was that health care was terrifyingly expensive. A simple > X-ray, a two dollar checkup in most hospitals in Shanghai, China costs > hundreds of dollars in the US (I do not remember which state or region > it was, I was just 5 years old then. What I do remember is that we had > some kind of medicaid; even then, the prices are in hundreds). A > standard CT scan, around 20--35 dollars in Shanghai, costs hundreds or > even thousands of dollars. A ride in the ambulance costs 10 dollars on > average in Shanghai, but thousands in ths US. (Note that by "the US", I > am referring to the state I was in, I do hope that there are saner ones.) > Apparantly this is caused by the US not having a good system of > medicaid, which I hope gets better implemented with Obamacare, but that > seems to be just a wish. This leads me to the point that governments > are responsible for their citizens in exchange for the citizens giving > up certain liberties (note that liberty isn't freedom exactly), > including keeping citizens healthy---it is impossible to have a > prosperous planet with bad healthcare. (Don't get me wrong, I have more > positive impressions in the US :P) > > For a government to be able to handle social needs, it must not be > corruputed. Theories such as the separation of powers exist, but in > contemperory times, implementations such as the US have > sometimes-corrupt but almost always ineffective governments. The Senate > fillibuster is a important reason, but not the culprit. The culprit is > the inherent eager to compete with other political parties and to gain a > political advantage, rather than coorporating, working together, and > actually managing the country with decent manners. > > Humanity's system of managing society progressed from the rule of > monarchs to the rule of law. But laws can be unclear and > misinterpreted. The recent development of mathematics and computer > science may as well be utilized to create a system of society and > government, which algorithmicly distributes power in an explicit manner > (Maybe with something like monads, I haven't got into the mathematical > part yet.) > > Godel Incompleteness tells us that we can never make a system of > mathematics that gets understood the same way everywhere; math is also > an evolving field (albeit very slowly). If this (currently nil) system > is to be ever used anywhere (may be the island), we'll definitely find a > lot of fissues. In such a system we also have the burden of educating > people in abstract algebra, which is relatively easy compared to > developing the system itself. My intuition tells me that Group Theory > will come in handy, but that's just intuition. > > Currently, I host this project at [2]. I've only recently gotten into > Group Theory and abstract algebra, it may take time for us all to come > up with ideas. But it's worth trying. > > References > ========== > > [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-10/msg00011.html > My previous memo on the use of software in education, COVID-19 and > the courts. > > Ironically, I was still using GitHub at the time. I recently > deprecated all of my GitHub in a notice, and moved all of my current > projects to git.andrewyu.org and project.andrewyu.org. The avenir > repository is moving there some time, after I re-write the website > with plain HTML---I don't see a reason to use a static site > generator anymore. This GitHub link is not provided here. > > [2] https://project.andrewyu.org/libresociety > A "checked out" version of the repository. The PDFs are of primary > interest. > > git://git.andrewyu.org/libresociety > The repository itself. SSH protocol version also exist, described > in the PDF itself. > > https://notabug.org/andrewyu/libresociety > A mirror of the above repository. Links Out > ========= > > [a] https://stallman.org/there-ought-to-be-a-law.html > A collection of bills/laws "proposed" or agreed upon by Richard > Stallman, mostly in support for a freer society, a less > corrupt/corruptable government, public benefit, etc. I don't agree > with all of them, but many of these will be taken into account in > this project. > > Some of the thoughts I had during writing this memo will appear in the > next commit of the project. > > This memo probably contains spelling errors and odd context-hopping. > When sitting down in front of my computer on the actual book, I'll be > more careful, and have a notebook and a pencil in front of me to plot > relation maps. Please forgive me, a 13-year-old with an undeveloped > brain from a non English-native country. > > Sincerely, > Andrew Yu > > :P > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss Andrew, Your email is warmly welcomed. I have had exactly the same thoughts recently. It is interesting to me because, and I have no shame in admitting this, I am an anarchist. I see Free Software as a way to resist the State and try and dissolve it completely. I would highly recommend you go back to them and show them GNU Guix? Maybe the point is moot now. Guix is _insanely_ advanced, and that's the angle you could take to them--the perfect package manager has finally been built. To my mind, we've now perfectly solved the problem. The way I look at the issue, though, is that the problem is with Statist society in general. Hierarchical societies are not natural for humans, so I maintain. I like GNU for its American sort of approach to this. I don't share a lot of American culture, but GNU reminds me of Henry David Thoreau's famous epithet: "the best government is that which governs least of all, that is to say: not at all". I come from an anarcho-communist approach. Perhaps we should have a discussion about attracting attention to the radical elements of GNU--we could convince people to join on that basis? Anyway, I have gone on far too long. Awesome to read your email (: ~vidak https://zoinks.one/vidak _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss