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x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: 0 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledrieelgdehlecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffhvffukfgjfhfogggtgfesthejredtredtvdenucfhrhhomhepsghilhhlqdgruhhgvghruceosghilhhlqdgruhhgvghrsehpvggvrhhsrdgtohhmmhhunhhithihqeenucfkphepjeehrddufeekrddukeeirddugedvnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopehprghrrggsohhlrgdpihhnvghtpeejhedrudefkedrudekiedrudegvddprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthhepsghilhhlqdgruhhgvghruceosghilhhlqdgruhhgvghrsehpvggvrhhsrdgtohhmmhhunhhithihqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegsihhllhdqrghughgvrhesphgvvghrshdrtghomhhmuhhnihhthidpnhhrtghpthhtoheplhhisghrvghplhgrnhgvthdqughishgtuhhssheslhhisghrvghplhgrnhgvthdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 23.83.214.22 Subject: Re: Free software is not trusted software X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 20:51:59 +0100 Julian wrote: > Trustability ranks can be adjusting for not trolling people. > Deffining/ ranking software" quality" and user safety are different > things. Quality can be very arbitrary. that was not to say that the rankings can only be intended for shaming (and shaming is not the same as "trolling", BTW) - it was only to say that shaming is the only common goal that it could be used for successfully; and i dont think that is anyone's goal - as you pointed out yourself, the common goal of "quality" is arbitrary; but then you seem to be indicating that "trustworthiness" is not arbitrary - "trustworthiness" and "safety" are not only arbitrary, but so totally subjective as to be barely definable - i will say it again for clarity, the word "trustworthiness" is applicable only to people, but not inanimate objects such as computers - merely the use of that word in this context is arbitrary and imprecise on the face of it - likewise, i dont see how the word "safety" could be used sincerely to describe the sorts of everyday computing activities that most people engage in i have no doubt that the intentions here are sincere; but the words you are using are so vague as to be dubious and nearly inapplicable to the discussion - if the proposed methods or intentions are just as vague and inapplicable, this would be a fatally misguided misadventure - so please let us use appropriate words to describe those plans and intentions for example, you could "trust" (or mistrust) a person to respect your "privacy"; but *only* if that person had previously promised to do so - no such promises are the default condition or obligation; just a common courtesy, by convention, in some societies - when you interact with a web server, that is someone else's computer, and that person is free to do as they wish with the data you give them, as far as copyright and patent laws permit - the owner of that computer alone, sets the behavioral norms in the context of that computer's usage and any remote users of it - they have no obligation to protect "your" data, nor to keep that data, or your interactions with their service, a secret (except for certain very specific data mandated by specific laws, such as banking and medical records) - therefore it is completely unreasonable to hold the opinion that one should be able, by default, to "trust" every other computer operator in the world (who is, in reality, a total stranger, BTW) to do these things of which they are not obligated, and may not even be the norm of their culture - in some cases, that computer operator will make some "community promises" in the form of formal "privacy statements" - only then could words like "trust" be applicable - that trust would only be applicable to what is explicitly promised in the formal document (as expressed by that computer's owner, not the desires of any remote user); and it is arbitrary and different for every service on the internet - there simply is no way to define nor hold any party to any universal standard of "trustworthiness" the word "safety" implies "danger"; as in: "a hungry lion is chasing you" - "safety" does not mean: "there is no one spying on you" - the correct word for that is: "privacy" - nor does it mean: "no one will use your credit card numbers to buy a lady gaga CD without your permission" - the correct word for that is: "fraud" - neither of those bear any resemblance to being eaten by a lion - i think most people can agree what "safety" means in the context of power tools, weapons, and wild animals - with those tangible objects, there are objectively verifiable consequences to their untrained misuse, that most sane people would readily agree upon without argument; but regarding computer use, there simply is no objective criteria that would be important to everyone - whatever "safety" means to you in the context of computers, it is not likely to mean the same thing to any other person - again, it should be obvious that the majority of computer users do not see them as "dangerous" and are not "afraid" of them in any way - that is not because they are blind or ignorant - it is because computing is not actually "dangerous" by any realistic definition - therefore, any standards of "safety" that such a committee draws is arbitrary, fitting only the personal concerns of its authors, possibly omitting the concerns of some users, and not generally applicable to any program, service, or user it is simply not possible to accurately guage such subjective concerns with a pre-defined, one-size-fits-all criteria; but if such a ranking system was to be applied at any scale, it could be only feasible with some pre-defined, one-size-fits-all criteria, and applied by some automated mechanism (such as that goofy system i described yesterday) - there would be hardly enough time to apply those criteria automatically to a small percentage of projects in existence; the problem is completely intractable if each project is to be guaged manually by the distinct, time-consuming, hand-picked, criteria that would be accurately suitable for that particular program or service so even if this were feasible, i think the end result would be, the qualifying of projects by criteria that is too generic to accurately describe any of them; and if people give any credibility to the rankings, developers would start spending valuable time fitting their software and development methodologies to satisfy those generic criteria, which may not be appropriate to their project - cargo-cult development, if you will, which is counter-productive toward any goal other than populous approval _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss