Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

[Nicolás A. Ortega]

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I am unsure if this is the correct list to talk about this, but
considering the description it's what made most sense.

Recently on #gnu (freenode) someone joined the channel looking for
guidance. They were saying that they wanted to start contributing to a
Free Software project, but they were having difficulty thinking of where
to start. Of course, they were given the GNU Savannah 'Help Wanted'
page, and told that they should find a software that they currently use
that they would like to contribute to.

This kind of question arises every now and then on #fsf (freenode) as
well, and even other channels. Someone is eager to help the community
and contribute to a free software project, but does not know where to
begin. And it's easy for us to say "find something you already use and
contribute to it", however this is not as easy as we make it out to be.
To begin with most people (as we know) run a large variety of software
on their computers, many of which are complex and have a very large code
base. What's more, we must all be familiar (through convincing our peers
to use Free Software) that too many options is just as scary as too few.
And even when they do try to find a project to get involved in the
questions arise of "do I have the skills?", "where exactly do they need
help?", "I don't have the time to contribute a lot, can I be a casual
contributor?", etc. Yes, these are things that they could really just
ask the maintainers of the project and the maintainer would be more than
happy to show them the way, however for someone who is new to
contributing to Free Software projects this isn't as obvious.

Something that I really liked when considering GNU Savannah for hosting
one of my projects was that it had a 'Help Wanted' page (which I
mentioned above). To me that is a great feature that allows new
contributors to find a project that is looking for help, and it even
answers a lot of the questions that I mentioned above that go through
the newcomer's mind ("do I have the skills?", mostly). However, GNU
Savannah has two flaws in this regard: 1. It's only for projects hosted
on GNU Savannah, other projects hosted elsewhere should also be able to
ask for contributors, 2. A lot of the information on GNU Savannah's
'Help Wanted' page is outdated.

Therefore I would suggest creating a site (it would be nice if it were
linked to by the FSF) where any Free Software project can post a notice
asking for help (similar to what GNU Savannah has) and visitors can
respond. However, unlike GNU Savannah there should be two improvements
(at least): 1. To avoid a bunch of outdated information these posts
should be renewed every so often (making it easy, like responding to an
e-mail for renewal, may be a good idea), 2. These posts should contain
visible contact information, the visitor should not need to create an
account in order to see the contact information (believe it or not
creating accounts discourages many people).

Things like this already exist, I know, however they tend to be tied to
a certain repository host, overflowing with outdated information, or in
general simply not given the attention they need to thrive and be a
hot-spot for contributors to find projects. I think that with the FSF
behind such a project it would help the Free Software community to take
advantage of all of these people who are eager to contribute but trying
to find a good place to start.

-- 
Nicolás A. Ortega (Deathsbreed)
https://themusicinnoise.net/
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/
Public PGP Key:
https://themusicinnoise.net/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc

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Re: Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

Hi Mx. Ortega,

This is interesting question indeed.

Perhaps we can make use of LibrePlanet wiki (which uses Semantic
MediaWiki, which is more dynamic than MediaWiki) to do such listings.

However, I don't know if Semantic MediaWiki is able to do things like
"this entry expired, let's hide it and send email to the creator". We
might have to search for it, perhaps some Semantic MediaWiki hacker can
shed some light.

I see now that the challenge will be how to integrate all these
fragmented places all again. Perhaps there would have to be a
"federation standard for job or help-wanted announcement". But that's
just me dreaming.

Besides all that was said, I agree that the visitor mustn't be required
to register in order to see the contact information.

The following paragraph is not meant to be offensive, it's more like a
invitation to the projects outside GNU Savannah to think again on what
is being done: We must also notice that GNU Savannah welcomes every
free/libre software project. Third-party free/libre software projects
choose other hosting services for some particular reasons unknown to
me. However, they for some reason decide to roll out their own websites
and project resources, and soon notice these challenges related to how
to get the help that's wanted (since they broke interaction by choosing
to roll their own resources). Of course, sometimes breaking these
interactions is advisable (like getting out of GitHub, as long as this
one ignores the GNU Ethical Repository Evaluation results and
criteria). But breaking interaction with GNU Savannah just because it
"looks outdated" or because people *assume* that it doesn't
support/provide git hosting --- which it *does* provide --- isn't
reasonable in my opinion.


Respectfully, Adonay.
-- 
- [[https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno]]
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
  gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre, por isso não uso. Iguais a ele prefiro
  Ring, ou Tox. Quer outras formas de contato? Adicione o vCard que
  está no endereço acima aos teus contatos.
- Pretende me enviar arquivos .doc, .ppt, .cdr, ou .mp3? OK, eu
  aceito, mas não repasso. Entrego apenas em formatos favoráveis ao
  /software/ livre. Favor entrar em contato em caso de dúvida.
- "People said I should accept the world. Bullshit! I don't accept the
  world."
                                                 --- Richard Stallman

Re: Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

[Nicolás A. Ortega]

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> Hi Mx. Ortega,

Nicolás is fine, adfeno, I'm Deathsbreed from #fsf and #parabola.

> Perhaps we can make use of LibrePlanet wiki (which uses Semantic
> MediaWiki, which is more dynamic than MediaWiki) to do such listings.

I am not sure that MediaWiki would be the right tool for the job. What's
more, it may be better to have it be its own site (perhaps a subdomain).
It may not be a bad idea to take what GNU Savannah currently has and
modify it so that it can be used independently.

The most important thing, and I would like to stress this, is that
posting a 'Help Wanted' request should be open to any Free Software
project. There are already an abundance of these but limited to certain
repository hosts. THis should be collectively for the entirety of the
Free Software community and promoted wherever possible in order to make
it an easy place of access for new contributors (something that new
contributors can easily find on sites dedicated to Free Software).

-- 
Nicolás A. Ortega (Deathsbreed)
https://themusicinnoise.net/
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/
Public PGP Key:
https://themusicinnoise.net/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc

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Re: Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

[Nicolás A. Ortega]

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On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 09:08:03AM +0200, David Hedlund wrote:
> I was just talking with RMS about this. I fully support your idea.
> 
> Can you please add the page /savannah/-/hackers/-public@gnu.org?

I'm confused... "add the page"? Sorry, I just don't understand.

-- 
Nicolás Ortega Froysa (Deathsbreed)
https://themusicinnoise.net/
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/
Public PGP Key:
https://themusicinnoise.net/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc

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Re: Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

[Nicolás A. Ortega]

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On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:13:48PM +0000, Kees Epema wrote:
> Lots of free software projects these days are hosted on version control platforms like github.com for instance.
> So I believe these platforms have already taken over the role of FSF in being a repository for free software projects.
> 
> Following this thread, I want to ask you all if you think FSF is able and of course willing to host such a project.
> 
> In my opinion FSF maybe have little resources for regaining the marketshare of github.com and other similar systems. 
> 
> Kind regards,
> Kees Epema
> 

In my opinion the idea isn't necessarily for the FSF to host it, but
definitely to promote it. This isn't about repo hosting but rather about
making it easy for people to find projects to contribute to and some
guidance on where to get started. Having the FSF promote this site (not
necessarily host it) would help to ensure that people in the Free
Software world know where to go, ie. help it to become known.

-- 
Nicolás Ortega Froysa (Deathsbreed)
https://themusicinnoise.net/
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/
Public PGP Key:
https://themusicinnoise.net/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc

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Re: Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

[Kees Epema]

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Lots of free software projects these days are hosted on version control platforms like github.com for instance.
So I believe these platforms have already taken over the role of FSF in being a repository for free software projects.

Following this thread, I want to ask you all if you think FSF is able and of course willing to host such a project.

In my opinion FSF maybe have little resources for regaining the marketshare of github.com and other similar systems. 

Kind regards,
Kees Epema


On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 12:15:08 +0200
Nicolás A. Ortega <deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net> wrote:

> I am unsure if this is the correct list to talk about this, but
> considering the description it's what made most sense.
> 
> Recently on #gnu (freenode) someone joined the channel looking for
> guidance. They were saying that they wanted to start contributing to a
> Free Software project, but they were having difficulty thinking of where
> to start. Of course, they were given the GNU Savannah 'Help Wanted'
> page, and told that they should find a software that they currently use
> that they would like to contribute to.
> 
> This kind of question arises every now and then on #fsf (freenode) as
> well, and even other channels. Someone is eager to help the community
> and contribute to a free software project, but does not know where to
> begin. And it's easy for us to say "find something you already use and
> contribute to it", however this is not as easy as we make it out to be.
> To begin with most people (as we know) run a large variety of software
> on their computers, many of which are complex and have a very large code
> base. What's more, we must all be familiar (through convincing our peers
> to use Free Software) that too many options is just as scary as too few.
> And even when they do try to find a project to get involved in the
> questions arise of "do I have the skills?", "where exactly do they need
> help?", "I don't have the time to contribute a lot, can I be a casual
> contributor?", etc. Yes, these are things that they could really just
> ask the maintainers of the project and the maintainer would be more than
> happy to show them the way, however for someone who is new to
> contributing to Free Software projects this isn't as obvious.
> 
> Something that I really liked when considering GNU Savannah for hosting
> one of my projects was that it had a 'Help Wanted' page (which I
> mentioned above). To me that is a great feature that allows new
> contributors to find a project that is looking for help, and it even
> answers a lot of the questions that I mentioned above that go through
> the newcomer's mind ("do I have the skills?", mostly). However, GNU
> Savannah has two flaws in this regard: 1. It's only for projects hosted
> on GNU Savannah, other projects hosted elsewhere should also be able to
> ask for contributors, 2. A lot of the information on GNU Savannah's
> 'Help Wanted' page is outdated.
> 
> Therefore I would suggest creating a site (it would be nice if it were
> linked to by the FSF) where any Free Software project can post a notice
> asking for help (similar to what GNU Savannah has) and visitors can
> respond. However, unlike GNU Savannah there should be two improvements
> (at least): 1. To avoid a bunch of outdated information these posts
> should be renewed every so often (making it easy, like responding to an
> e-mail for renewal, may be a good idea), 2. These posts should contain
> visible contact information, the visitor should not need to create an
> account in order to see the contact information (believe it or not
> creating accounts discourages many people).
> 
> Things like this already exist, I know, however they tend to be tied to
> a certain repository host, overflowing with outdated information, or in
> general simply not given the attention they need to thrive and be a
> hot-spot for contributors to find projects. I think that with the FSF
> behind such a project it would help the Free Software community to take
> advantage of all of these people who are eager to contribute but trying
> to find a good place to start.
> 
> -- 
> Nicolás A. Ortega (Deathsbreed)
> https://themusicinnoise.net/
> http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/
> Public PGP Key:
> https://themusicinnoise.net/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc
> http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc


---
Groet,

Kees Epema
Rosa Spierweg 20
9408EV Assen
T: 06 100 66 878
M: keesepema@linuxmail.org

Protect your privacy and encrypt your messages. 
Add my key to your keyring:
PGP key: http://osmigratie.nl/keesepema.asc

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Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

[Bob Proulx]

Hello Nicolás,

Nicolás A. Ortega wrote:
> David Hedlund wrote:
> > I was just talking with RMS about this. I fully support your idea.
> > 
> > Can you please add the page /savannah/-/hackers/-public@gnu.org?
> 
> I'm confused... "add the page"? Sorry, I just don't understand.

I think the /.../ may have been meant as italics emphasis markup and
that the "page" part was simply language.  David added
savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org to the CC list of the email.  I
believe that was what he was referring to.

For the people on savannah-hackers-public I offer the email archive of
libreplanet-discuss for the past discussion.  The thread starts here:

  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2017-04/msg00003.html

Conceptually I think a site to share "jobs postings" for free software
projects is a good idea.  Savane at Savannah implements a help wanted
page for each Savannah hosted project.  But given that there is a
political tension for some people to want to avoid GNU (for whatever
reason) having something that is slightly further away (not on
Savannah) may be acceptable to them while using Savannah is not.  (For
example Savannah accepts only Free Software projects after a human
review process while GitHub has no such review process.)  Also the
Savane web interface has been suffering from a lack of volunteers for
updates for some time.  Therefore I can see the attraction of setting
up an independent site for this information.

Bob

Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

[Nicolás A. Ortega]

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On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 01:38:49PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Conceptually I think a site to share "jobs postings" for free software
> projects is a good idea.  Savane at Savannah implements a help wanted
> page for each Savannah hosted project.  But given that there is a
> political tension for some people to want to avoid GNU (for whatever
> reason) having something that is slightly further away (not on
> Savannah) may be acceptable to them while using Savannah is not.  (For
> example Savannah accepts only Free Software projects after a human
> review process while GitHub has no such review process.)  Also the
> Savane web interface has been suffering from a lack of volunteers for
> updates for some time.  Therefore I can see the attraction of setting
> up an independent site for this information.
> 

Practically speaking, how easy would it be to extract just the 'help
wanted' section of Savane and modify it to have the improvements I
mentioned earlier (ie. expiring posts and such)?

-- 
Nicolás Ortega Froysa (Deathsbreed)
https://themusicinnoise.net/
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/
Public PGP Key:
https://themusicinnoise.net/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc
http://uk7ewohr7xpjuaca.onion/deathsbreed@themusicinnoise.net_pub.asc

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Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Help Wanted Site for Free Software Projects

[Assaf Gordon]

Hello,

(joining late to the discussion, adding few tidbits)

1.
Regarding "outdated" posts:
It might surprise you (it definitely surprised me) that some of these posts you consider "outdated" are not outdated at all. They are old, that's true - but not outdated.
In fact, I personally contacted many submitters, and many of them insisted that their posts remain as-is, even if they have been unchanged for years. Many also refused to update or refresh their posts.

You can read a bit more about our attempts here:
   sr #106581: doing something about stale jobs?
   https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?106581

2.
Regarding "automated removal":
At the time of the discussion (see link above), automatic removal was frowned upon.
There was a suggestion to manually contact posters and ask if the post is still
relevant, and if so update it.
From my humble experience with administrating savannah - I *highly* recommend against
anything that requires manual work.
If you do implement a new "help wanted" website - have an automated way to expire posts.
Of course, you might want to have a more sophisticated mechanism
to send email alerts about coming expirations, etc. - but that's
more complicated to implement.
Anything that requires manual work (and requires volunteers' time) will quickly
become a chore.

3.
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 01:38:49PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:
>>  Also the
>> Savane web interface has been suffering from a lack of volunteers for
>> updates for some time.  Therefore I can see the attraction of setting
>> up an independent site for this information.

On one hand, if there are volunteers out there that want to
improve the "help wanted" pages - why not hack directly on the savannah interface?
we always welcome more hackers, and the best place to start is here:
 https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/RunningSavaneLocally/
 https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/SavannahHackingIdeas/

On the other hand, starting from scratch is usually more fun
(and you won't be bound by FSF policies).

> Practically speaking, how easy would it be to extract just the 'help
> wanted' section of Savane and modify it to have the improvements I
> mentioned earlier (ie. expiring posts and such)?

If you want a database-dump of the relevant tables - that's easy.
Contact write to us at savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org and we
can find a way to make it work.

When you write "modify it" - do you mean the PHP code?
The links above are the best place to start to hack on the PHP code.

Alternatively,
There's also an attempt to write python/flask code to view the savannah
database - eventually it'll include the "help wanted" pages as well:
  https://varanusex.housegordon.org



Lastly (and this is only my personal opinion and is not necessarily
shared with other savannah hackers or FSF):
I'm fully supportive of moving savannah's "Help Wanted" section elsewhere,
and removing it from savannah.


regards,
 - assaf