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In-Reply-To: References: <20220517155250.q65vcyqtujvhutec@gentoo-dell> <92b7cf0bdd92dca33167d28e932971396d2ee1b1.camel@identicalsoftware.com> Message-ID: <1ADA8595-376F-4A07-A248-3F1998777378@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=jimgarrett@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -23 X-Spam_score: -2.4 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=1.997, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 18 May 2022 12:47:25 -0400 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1071617138219486765==" Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" --===============1071617138219486765== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----AEV83M386VWW0HQDXOEHHLLA3GMV42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------AEV83M386VWW0HQDXOEHHLLA3GMV42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a thought about rhetorical approach and wording: the phrase "proprieta= ry fork" could be useful=2E Also, center the viewpoint of prospective contr= ibutors=2E "A permissive license allows software companies or other entities to make = a proprietary fork of a project=2E This means someone (Developer A) could g= enerously contribute code, then Microsoft (say) could take the project, add= their own enhancements, and release a competing version=2E Developer A con= tributed expecting she would benefit from others' contributions, yet she is= walled off from Microsoft's contributions=2E She's being played, basicall= y=2E We want to choose a license that encourages participation, and we thin= k guaranteeing access to future contributions without the possibility of a = proprietary fork best serves that=2E "It's obvious why proprietary software companies prefer that projects use = permissive licenses, but when picking a license, I'm not particularly conce= rned with what Google, Microsoft, or Apple prefer, or what best integrates = with their software stack=2E" I add this second bit because I think there's "word on the street" that pe= rmissive licenses are more popular and preferred by more, um, entities=2E B= ut this is like gossip ("people are saying=2E=2E=2E ")=2E Trace this to ori= gin and I think we would find a few big players loudly and consistently sla= ndering strong licenses=2E Jim Garrett On May 17, 2022 10:15:15 PM EDT, Aaron Wolf wrote: >FWIW, as a link anyone can use, I put together this some years ago, aimin= g to be fair and neutral enough while advocating copyleft: > >https://wiki=2Esnowdrift=2Ecoop/about/licenses > >That's probably the ideal link to share in this case IMHO > >On May 17, 2022 2:27:30 PM PDT, Dennis Payne wrote: >>Having one person consider GPL an evil license isn't a big deal=2E I >>wouldn't waste a lot of time trying to convert him=2E Nor would I send >>them a link to long essay explaining the situation=2E wolftune's argumen= t >>is the simplest=2E However since you already sent him an offensive >>article, I doubt any argument will have much effect at this point=2E >> >>On Tue, 2022-05-17 at 23:52 +0800, andrew via libreplanet-discuss >>wrote: >>> Andrew=C2=A0 Would https://git=2Eandrewyu=2Eorg/pygame-multiplayer/=C2= =A0suffice to >>> indicate extending an existing Expat (MIT) project into a project >>> based on the original work but licensed under the (A)GPL? >>> Andrew=C2=A0 ugh, forgot to place the agpl in it=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ask a lawyer >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (and consider a less evil license)=C2= =A0=20 >>> Andrew=C2=A0 Not asking for legal advice, just general practice >>> Andrew=C2=A0 And I don't consider the GPLs to be evil, I use=C2=A0 the= m for >>> bigger projects while I use public domain (unlicense) for smaller >>> ones >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 licenses are legal stuff, so you are as= king for legal >>> advice >>> Andrew=C2=A0 asking stuff like 'does the US have any laws' is legal bu= t >>> isn't asking for legal advice imo >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 your question is =E2=80=9Cam I interpet= ing and using the >>> license correctly=E2=80=9D >>> Andrew=C2=A0 i guess=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 >>> Andrew=C2=A0 and why do you think the gpl is evil?=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 GPL, and especially AGPL, makes your co= de less free >>> than MIT/BSD >>> nedbat=C2=A0 Andrew: this is a classic debate=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 >>> Andrew=C2=A0 ChrisWarrick: PM me, thanks >>> Andrew=C2=A0 because I want to prevent people from proprietizing it >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but at the same time, you=E2=80=99re be= nefitting from Brandon >>> Nguyen=E2=80=99s work >>> Andrew=C2=A0 yes >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but he isn=E2=80=99t able to benefit fr= om yours >>> Andrew=C2=A0 they could use the AGPL/GPL, and they could ask me for an >>> exception >>> Andrew=C2=A0 the greater danger is people taking expat code and >>> proprietizing it, hindering free use altogether >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 what is wrong with proprietary use thou= gh? >>> Andrew=C2=A0 i'll get back to you with an article tomorrow, thanks on = your >>> thoughts >>> Andrew=C2=A0 meanwhile, >>> https://lukesmith=2Exyz/articles/why-i-use-the-gpl-and-not-cuck-licens= es >>> =C2=A0explains part of it >>> Andrew=C2=A0 dont agree to all of it, i see a lot of use of permissive >>> licenses, but not for the project working on now >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 do you have a less offensive article? >>> Andrew=C2=A0 I'm working on that >>> ChrisWarrick=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 okay=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 >>>=20 >>> I hope this is clear enough on what I need =2E=2E=2E well, how do I ex= plain >>> the GPL to them? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list >>> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet=2Eorg >>> https://lists=2Elibreplanet=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>libreplanet-discuss mailing list >>libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet=2Eorg >>https://lists=2Elibreplanet=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss -- Sent from /e/ Mail=2E ------AEV83M386VWW0HQDXOEHHLLA3GMV42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Just a thought about rhetorical approach and wording: the phrase "proprietary fork" could be useful. Also, center the viewpoint of prospective contributors. "A permissive license allows software companies or other entities to make a proprietary fork of a project. This means someone (Developer A) could generously contribute code, then Microsoft (say) could take the project, add their own enhancements, and release a competing version. Developer A contributed expecting she would benefit from others' contributions, yet she is walled off from Microsoft's contributions. She's being played, basically. We want to choose a license that encourages participation, and we think guaranteeing access to future contributions without the possibility of a proprietary fork best serves that. "It's obvious why proprietary software companies prefer that projects use permissive licenses, but when picking a license, I'm not particularly concerned with what Google, Microsoft, or Apple prefer, or what best integrates with their software stack." I add this second bit because I think there's "word on the street" that permissive licenses are more popular and preferred by more, um, entities. But this is like gossip ("people are saying... "). Trace this to origin and I think we would find a few big players loudly and consistently slandering strong licenses. Jim Garrett On May 17, 2022 10:15:15 PM EDT, Aaron Wolf wrote: FWIW, as a link anyone can use, I put together this some years ago, aiming to be fair and neutral enough while advocating copyleft: [1]https://wiki.snowdrift.coop/about/licenses That's probably the ideal link to share in this case IMHO On May 17, 2022 2:27:30 PM PDT, Dennis Payne wrote : Having one person consider GPL an evil license isn't a big deal. I wouldn't waste a lot of time trying to convert him. Nor would I send them a link to long essay explaining the situation. wolftune's argument is the simplest. However since you already sent him an offensive article, I doubt any argument will have much effect at this point. On Tue, 2022-05-17 at 23:52 +0800, andrew via libreplanet-discuss wrote: Andrew Would [2]https://git.andrewyu.org/pygame-multiplayer/ suffice to indicate extending an existing Expat (MIT) project into a project based on the original work but licensed under the (A)GPL? Andrew ugh, forgot to place the agpl in it ChrisWarrick ask a lawyer ChrisWarrick (and consider a less evil license) Andrew Not asking for legal advice, just general practice Andrew And I don't consider the GPLs to be evil, I use them for bigger projects while I use public domain (unlicense) for smaller ones ChrisWarrick licenses are legal stuff, so you are asking for legal advice Andrew asking stuff like 'does the US have any laws' is legal but isn't asking for legal advice imo ChrisWarrick your question is “am I interpeting and using the license correctly” Andrew i guess Andrew and why do you think the gpl is evil? ChrisWarrick GPL, and especially AGPL, makes your code less free than MIT/BSD nedbat Andrew: this is a classic debate Andrew ChrisWarrick: PM me, thanks Andrew because I want to prevent people from proprietizing it ChrisWarrick but at the same time, you’re benefitting from Brandon Nguyen’s work Andrew yes ChrisWarrick but he isn’t able to benefit from yours Andrew they could use the AGPL/GPL, and they could ask me for an exception Andrew the greater danger is people taking expat code and proprietizing it, hindering free use altogether ChrisWarrick what is wrong with proprietary use though? Andrew i'll get back to you with an article tomorrow, thanks on your thoughts Andrew meanwhile, [3]https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/why-i-use-the-gpl-and-not-cuck-lic enses explains part of it Andrew dont agree to all of it, i see a lot of use of permissive licenses, but not for the project working on now ChrisWarrick do you have a less offensive article? Andrew I'm working on that ChrisWarrick okay I hope this is clear enough on what I need ... well, how do I explain the GPL to them? _______________________________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [4]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus s _______________________________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus s -- Sent from /e/ Mail. References 1. https://wiki.snowdrift.coop/about/licenses 2. https://git.andrewyu.org/pygame-multiplayer/ 3. https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/why-i-use-the-gpl-and-not-cuck-licenses 4. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ------AEV83M386VWW0HQDXOEHHLLA3GMV42-- --===============1071617138219486765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KbGlicmVwbGFu ZXQtZGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGlicmVwbGFuZXQtZGlzY3Vzc0BsaWJyZXBsYW5ldC5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5saWJyZXBsYW5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saWJyZXBs YW5ldC1kaXNjdXNzCg== --===============1071617138219486765==--