From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8173B1F990 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 21:04:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:35486 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k346e-0004Cw-8Y for e@80x24.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:04:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34206) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k346D-0004Cg-Kl for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:03:53 -0400 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:41770) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k346A-0001R4-8R for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:03:53 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B696451BB6; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:03:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9EwcAgUj60bR; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:03:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 23:03:44 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1596575025; bh=iGlJ0cezAnFCCAdqUVO1N8kqmCPvQ8phoujVPG/LuHU=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=iGn2MKK8io1U6eGLNjsh6NoohtXSMvYK3n218m2//tYFfzoxUn8jisY6sb2580YRz r/iNfotKVwPLHctO9r0Sfqy6xhbHtExGQA9QPTME6q5SZeATT/uYa/Lru/Bg/elHUd 9YvOhuctxsKnSSV2n3YGP1BYBFri8iURVVUhrCkXr2H9zTyiULK7MuzkrbEdYOdci/ pptQkNJUjqEC2+2rwAnNYD/gTaFkqBoIlWHUAl3TCFPkqWu47xsoLq5FOwnvdpksx4 GSiw1brRgIIAV6jxJNWbbtKnINLt5rrAglVt70XFKl33/3KCGB178WKC4m78QH+u6G gygqgL60zkH9A== From: Msavoritias Subject: Re: Matrix communication protocol. To: Adonay Felipe Nogueira Cc: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Message-Id: <1596575024.1148.2@disroot.org> In-Reply-To: <0df5f56a-36bf-3ded-3957-dc3a4d152696@hyperbola.info> References: <1595541394.1159.3@disroot.org> <1596039936.1150.2@disroot.org> <20200730043725.GC25289@ossguy.com> <1596125074.1189.0@disroot.org> <20200730162745.GE25289@ossguy.com> <1596138703.28021.1@disroot.org> <20200731030048.GI25289@ossguy.com> <1596185910.1161.0@disroot.org> <2E654784-A437-418F-993D-8535D29922AF@os-k.eu> <2f390373-0135-baff-0559-5d0f3ed1800d@os-k.eu> <0df5f56a-36bf-3ded-3957-dc3a4d152696@hyperbola.info> Mime-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.21.23.139; envelope-from=marinus.savoritias@disroot.org; helo=knopi.disroot.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/08/04 16:41:10 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2695771453428317423==" Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" --===============2695771453428317423== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-D8UpzYfyUVapFwf1xKh4" --=-D8UpzYfyUVapFwf1xKh4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My only issues is not the two that you mention. We have also: 1. No coherent Standard so everybody can have the same features. 2. Not a lot of Clients. 3. Not a lot of Clients that look decent. 4. No communities. 5. No threading. 6. No Voice rooms like Discord. These are just some of the problems that I have. As I explained above=20 Matrix is for groups mostly. And it is much more welcoming to newcomers=20 than IRC or XMPP. or even Mailing lists for that matter. Well FSF has Wire as a high priority project. WHich is a straight for=20 Profit Company unlike Matrix. Also I didn't know FSF was against companies. Their latest article is=20 that being FLOSS doesn't mean no Companies. But you can already get involved in Matrix and developing the Spec.=20 Isn't that what you mean? Well the IRC that we currently using has not encryption. So what=20 exactly are comparing here? MSavoritias On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 10:43, Adonay Felipe Nogueira via=20 libreplanet-discuss wrote: > Em 31/07/2020 16:20, Adrien Bourmault (neox on freenode) escreveu: >> Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part)=20 >> and is >=20 > Interesting, I wonder if there are references to that. >=20 >> The XSF point of view is different from the Matrix/Vector one :=20 >> the XSF >> is a non profit foundation, in the tracks of IETF. They made a=20 >> protocol >> in the hope that it will be useful and that's it. You can't say=20 >> the >> same for Vector. >=20 > Good point. On a not so similar subject, this seems to align with the > arguments presented by Software Freedom Conservancy (SFConservancy) in > regards to copyleft enforcement (almost all of their talks, including > the recorded ones, present this "who best enforces copyleft?"=20 > paradigm, > and all results in either individual copyright holders or these=20 > signing > their contributions to one of FSF-and-sisters, SFConservancy or=20 > Software > Freedom Law Center, and avoiding non-disclosure agreements, trade > secrets and contributor license agreements). >=20 >> of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and=20 >> are XSF >> members. There are many forks of both, and it provides=20 >> additionnal >=20 > Indeed, in open standards, people and projects being members of the > standards committees/workgroups is a very important thing, specially=20 > if > many are in favor of free/libre software or if the group itself has=20 > that > commitment or is a non-profit, preferably a charity. >=20 >> On mobile, there is only one functionnal Matrix client :=20 >> Element. And >> it advocates for non free software, especially Google one. >=20 > The references in my previous replies to this topic also agree with=20 > you. :) >=20 >> Have you ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care=20 >> about >> privacy, everyone should encrypt his communications. XMPP's=20 >> modern >> encryption (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than Olm/Megolm=20 >> (because >> it seems Vector thought that forward secrecy was an anti-feature=20 >> lol). >=20 > That is scary indeed. >=20 >> beautiful. Free software is about freedom, not popularity >=20 > And with this I contribute referencing to [1]. >=20 >=20 > # References >=20 >=20 > [1]:=20 > . >=20 >=20 > -- > * Ativista do software livre > * > * Membro dos grupos avaliadores de > * Software (Free Software Directory) > * Distribui=E7=F5es de sistemas (FreedSoftware) > * Sites (Free JavaScript Action Team) > * N=E3o sou advogado e n=E3o fomento os n=E3o livres > * Sempre veja o spam/lixo eletr=F4nico do teu e-mail > * Ou coloque todos os recebidos na caixa de entrada > * Sempre assino e-mails com OpenPGP > * Chave p=FAblica: vide endere=E7o anterior > * Qualquer outro pode ser fraude > * Se n=E3o tens OpenPGP, ignore o anexo "signature.asc" > * Ao enviar anexos > * Docs., planilhas e apresenta=E7=F5es: use OpenDocument > * Outros tipos: vide endere=E7o anterior > * Use protocolos de comunica=E7=E3o federadas > * Vide endere=E7o anterior > * Mensagens secretas somente via > * XMPP com OMEMO > * E-mail criptografado e assinado com OpenPGP >=20 > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org=20 > > = --=-D8UpzYfyUVapFwf1xKh4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My only issues is not the two that you mention. We have also: 1. No coherent Standard so everybody can have the same features. 2. Not a lot of Clients. 3. Not a lot of Clients that look decent. 4. No communities. 5. No threading. 6. No Voice rooms like Discord. These are just some of the problems that I have. As I explained above Matrix is for groups mostly. And it is much more welcoming to newcomers than IRC or XMPP. or even Mailing lists for that matter. Well FSF has Wire as a high priority project. WHich is a straight for Profit Company unlike Matrix. Also I didn't know FSF was against companies. Their latest article is that being FLOSS doesn't mean no Companies. [1]https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Collection:High_Priority_Projects But you can already get involved in Matrix and developing the Spec. Isn't that what you mean? Well the IRC that we currently using has not encryption. So what exactly are comparing here? MSavoritias On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 10:43, Adonay Felipe Nogueira via libreplanet-discuss wrote: Em 31/07/2020 16:20, Adrien Bourmault (neox on freenode) escreveu: Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and is Interesting, I wonder if there are references to that. The XSF point of view is different from the Matrix/Vector one : the XSF is a non profit foundation, in the tracks of IETF. They made a protocol in the hope that it will be useful and that's it. You can't say the same for Vector. Good point. On a not so similar subject, this seems to align with the arguments presented by Software Freedom Conservancy (SFConservancy) in regards to copyleft enforcement (almost all of their talks, including the recorded ones, present this "who best enforces copyleft?" paradigm, and all results in either individual copyright holders or these signing their contributions to one of FSF-and-sisters, SFConservancy or Software Freedom Law Center, and avoiding non-disclosure agreements, trade secrets and contributor license agreements). of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and are XSF members. There are many forks of both, and it provides additionnal Indeed, in open standards, people and projects being members of the standards committees/workgroups is a very important thing, specially if many are in favor of free/libre software or if the group itself has that commitment or is a non-profit, preferably a charity. On mobile, there is only one functionnal Matrix client : Element. And it advocates for non free software, especially Google one. The references in my previous replies to this topic also agree with you. :) Have you ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care about privacy, everyone should encrypt his communications. XMPP's modern encryption (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than Olm/Megolm (because it seems Vector thought that forward secrecy was an anti-feature lol). That is scary indeed. beautiful. Free software is about freedom, not popularity And with this I contribute referencing to [1]. # References [1]: [2]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html . -- * Ativista do software livre * [3]https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno * Membro dos grupos avaliadores de * Software (Free Software Directory) * Distribuies de sistemas (FreedSoftware) * Sites (Free JavaScript Action Team) * No sou advogado e no fomento os no livres * Sempre veja o spam/lixo eletrnico do teu e-mail * Ou coloque todos os recebidos na caixa de entrada * Sempre assino e-mails com OpenPGP * Chave pblica: vide endereo anterior * Qualquer outro pode ser fraude * Se no tens OpenPGP, ignore o anexo "signature.asc" * Ao enviar anexos * Docs., planilhas e apresentaes: use OpenDocument * Outros tipos: vide endereo anterior * Use protocolos de comunicao federadas * Vide endereo anterior * Mensagens secretas somente via * XMPP com OMEMO * E-mail criptografado e assinado com OpenPGP _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Collection:High_Priority_Projects 2. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html 3. https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno 4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss --=-D8UpzYfyUVapFwf1xKh4-- --===============2695771453428317423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KbGlicmVwbGFu ZXQtZGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGlicmVwbGFuZXQtZGlzY3Vzc0BsaWJyZXBsYW5ldC5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5saWJyZXBsYW5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saWJyZXBs YW5ldC1kaXNjdXNz --===============2695771453428317423==--