From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB9161F5AE for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 23:36:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:39012 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k212x-0003ng-NF for e@80x24.org; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 19:36:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37090) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k212g-0003n0-Mw for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 19:35:54 -0400 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:59488) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k212d-0000su-G3 for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 19:35:54 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C49851C89; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 01:35:48 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6vJ4M30aqZa; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 01:35:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2020 01:35:45 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1596324946; bh=fFJxofb8r6JRf7hPWbxFEE1jIRQJHP0t1PO2ae3EOQU=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=Y+4GfOMDRAflPpL8A6HfYUWeHnT1/W57nfAS98dB6bxUQocHUuPyJUJMO6LMcMwhV 3L3z0bYQR/4EVPzLY0EUEX94sGjaQwQo1pm9jNmN2tn2drNAHNuAcAW7fZdyEFVkEO ZBTV9E4blFuIiucncGDljcjefVIZjWloqPlFnK+boCSevwF1mM0JqkRLFrL3EuaKTu hEMIWLrvoFkAKxZ9yyrXM0uW3mzebvvjyFz/67pabO8psMOy/TSP7sv/6Ct6ErJW6s sSDmTJLZxQGaCnAnlbvCwCjgk/qD13KCCIAlRPGgUoquAaSKviXmgivgoeFKZSel2c NwngDGgX6kD5A== From: Msavoritias Subject: Re: Matrix communication protocol. To: Denver Gingerich Cc: "Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode)" , libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Message-Id: <1596324945.1141.1@disroot.org> In-Reply-To: <20200801173456.GP25289@ossguy.com> References: <1596039936.1150.2@disroot.org> <20200730043725.GC25289@ossguy.com> <1596125074.1189.0@disroot.org> <20200730162745.GE25289@ossguy.com> <1596138703.28021.1@disroot.org> <20200731030048.GI25289@ossguy.com> <1596185910.1161.0@disroot.org> <2E654784-A437-418F-993D-8535D29922AF@os-k.eu> <1596302715.1141.0@disroot.org> <20200801173456.GP25289@ossguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.21.23.139; envelope-from=marinus.savoritias@disroot.org; helo=knopi.disroot.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/08/01 19:35:48 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3666170262797350595==" Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" --===============3666170262797350595== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-NYkHr81CC2ZnCfLBY+2M" --=-NYkHr81CC2ZnCfLBY+2M Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed If I download three clients in Android I will find three different feature sets. And then I have to pick the right server with the right extensions. Its all a big puzzle. That is not very coherent. The modern features I said as above can be stickers, gifs, communities or Discord servers if you will. There are a lot such features. Now I understand that XMPP may support these in some extension somewhere. But the point is that I need to have the right combination of an app and the server to get this feature. About the design I guess we have different circles. I like IRC and terminal too. Doesn't mean that new users will like them and I should recomend it for them. Look, the whole point of this anyway was a suggestion for the FSF to add a Matrix server so new users can patricipate somewhere that fills modern and they can easily grasp. It's not about XMPP vs Matrix. That can be an endless debate like IRC vs XMPP. Email vs Gittea or something. As I have said I downloaded all the XMPP apps that i could find xmpp site or otherwise. The only one that had the necesserary features was Conversations. And that one has a bad UI. That doesn't look like a standard to me, if I have to use Conversations only. On Matrix I can easily on the top of my head tell you at least 3 that are in active development. Two of them Copyleft. As it stands now I will continue to have the Free Software rooms in Matrix and patricipate there. Any new user that is interested also I will suggest them to divert there. I don't want to scare them by showing IRC or some random XMPP server. MSavoritias On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 17:34, Denver Gingerich wrote: > On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: >> The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't have >> good >> clients for Mobile, > > You mention this repeatedly without explaining why Conversations has > "bad design". Most people I know love the design of Conversations, > so I have trouble seeing why Conversations is holding back XMPP in > some way. > >> doesn't have modern features > > The only feature you have explicitly mentioned is "stickers". I'm > not sure why this is an important feature for FSF to have in a > protocol they want to promote. Are there other "modern features" > that XMPP is missing? > >> or even a coherent standard. > > As we've mentioned, there are coherent standards for XMPP. If you > want a client that supports the important standards, use Gajim or > Conversations. > >> So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we >> can >> attract new contributors that may want modern features. > > Per above, please tell us which "modern features" you mean. Thanks! > > Denver > --=-NYkHr81CC2ZnCfLBY+2M MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If I download three clients in Android I will find three different feature sets. And then I have to pick the right server with the right extensions. Its all a big puzzle. That is not very coherent. The modern features I said as above can be stickers, gifs, communities or Discord servers if you will. There are a lot such features. Now I understand that XMPP may support these in some extension somewhere. But the point is that I need to have the right combination of an app and the server to get this feature. About the design I guess we have different circles. I like IRC and terminal too. Doesn't mean that new users will like them and I should recomend it for them. Look, the whole point of this anyway was a suggestion for the FSF to add a Matrix server so new users can patricipate somewhere that fills modern and they can easily grasp. It's not about XMPP vs Matrix. T hat can be an endless debate like IRC vs XMPP. Email vs Gittea or something. As I have said I downloaded all the XMPP apps that i could find xmpp site or otherwise. The only one that had the necesserary features was Conversations. And that one has a bad UI. That doesn't look like a standard to me, if I have to use Conversations only. On Matrix I can easily on the top of my head tell you at least 3 that are in active development. Two of them Copyleft. As it stands now I will continue to have the Free Software rooms in Matrix and patricipate there. Any new user that is interested also I will suggest them to divert there. I don't want to scare them by showing IRC or some random XMPP server. MSavoritias On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 17:34, Denver Gingerich wrote: On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't have good clients for Mobile, You mention this repeatedly without explaining why Conversations has "bad design". Most people I know love the design of Conversations, so I have trouble seeing why Conversations is holding back XMPP in some way. doesn't have modern features The only feature you have explicitly mentioned is "stickers". I'm not sure why this is an important feature for FSF to have in a protocol they want to promote. Are there other "modern features" that XMPP is missing? or even a coherent standard. As we've mentioned, there are coherent standards for XMPP. If you want a client that supports the important standards, use Gajim or Conversations. So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we can attract new contributors that may want modern features. Per above, please tell us which "modern features" you mean. Thanks! Denver [1]https://jmp.chat/ References 1. https://jmp.chat/ --=-NYkHr81CC2ZnCfLBY+2M-- --===============3666170262797350595== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KbGlicmVwbGFu ZXQtZGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGlicmVwbGFuZXQtZGlzY3Vzc0BsaWJyZXBsYW5ldC5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5saWJyZXBsYW5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saWJyZXBs YW5ldC1kaXNjdXNz --===============3666170262797350595==--