From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 425C31F5AE for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 19:52:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:51598 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k1Ebb-0007gG-1n for e@80x24.org; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:52:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33072) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k1Eao-0007ew-GA for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:51:54 -0400 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:41270) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k1Eak-0007XW-42 for libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:51:54 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EF3528D7; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 21:51:46 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oYO1tzLIoyGr; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 21:51:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 21:51:43 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1596138705; bh=YBq5W1AsyWyPd+e0hT2btvQBGARUMtq/MriU0rlZmL8=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=EGyU3aCsPZDPA1K5/QuMFCR+eSu3H1x/yLKKBfGQrs6svYfHQC3wzjrCu7hfxUdTr qBl1xxveL/OvYMHsdLUT+e9SgN0tz+Z9xiIS1j97ilfbJW4xPH9IO0rkH6mnonU4Be M3ygw0UWCj5rYtcqVr7wY64ODGXHYVX/fVjZA95tgFakoS0cQHlD3fVz6IrFkAm+Jy uFB/ctXHjod0xWHNqcfNAQZDulP6lWkOtBiQeS+0fI/SMhb0DuXJU+XxkaB+wTnB8H c8w8VVXIS5W8jEZbAI49L3NpLQeU2H+upGoiMqomm6gRvAA/8E5mee+gmhcPub76/C pSFWjjkyyNHhw== From: Msavoritias Subject: Re: Matrix communication protocol. To: Denver Gingerich Cc: Adonay Felipe Nogueira , libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Message-Id: <1596138703.28021.1@disroot.org> In-Reply-To: <20200730162745.GE25289@ossguy.com> References: <1595541394.1159.3@disroot.org> <1596039936.1150.2@disroot.org> <20200730043725.GC25289@ossguy.com> <1596125074.1189.0@disroot.org> <20200730162745.GE25289@ossguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.21.23.139; envelope-from=marinus.savoritias@disroot.org; helo=knopi.disroot.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/07/30 15:30:04 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4984174173021196894==" Errors-To: libreplanet-discuss-bounces+e=80x24.org@libreplanet.org Sender: "libreplanet-discuss" --===============4984174173021196894== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-2f2L0vS5d1RbAm/jpJcT" --=-2f2L0vS5d1RbAm/jpJcT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Conversations is badly designed. I am talking from experience trying for people to adopt it. Every other client listed on this page: for android is basically with design from twenty years ago. There doesn't seem to be new clients popping up. for mobile at least. In contrast Matrix has a lot of new clients with active development. I checked. It does have some development. Which seems interesting considering the stagnation of clients for mobile. Its not the problem of something Conversations are missing. Although it misses a lot of stuff. Like stickers and widgets. The thing is that every client I installed had different capabilities entirely. It made sense when I read the phylosophy behind XMPP and Matrix though. Matrix wants to be ,from my perspective, a coherent standard. One piece. XMPP is more modular. Which explains the fragmentation in the XMPP ecosystem. That''s true. It is still in heavy development. It does have though at least 4 server implementations that I know of. Some of them are lightweight. One of them by matrix.org themselves as a planeed rewrite for the slow current server. Also bear in mind that the Goverment of France, and the Goverment of Germany along with some other providers. Also Kde and Gnome have moved there. Matrix is here to stay. On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 16:27, Denver Gingerich wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 06:04:34PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: >> I wanted a client for Android so i searched on Google play and >> Fdroid but >> couldn't find one with acceptable design. Proprietary or otherwise. > > What is wrong with Conversations? > > > > >> Plus I have seen that there is a huge shift to Matrix for non-tech >> people. >> IRC and XMPP seem to stay into obscurity. XMPP would have been >> popular by >> now. >> And what good is a system if its not popular? I don't want to >> message my >> self. >> Matrix is the only protocol that is actively developed, is Free >> Software >> (although not AGPL-3), and seems to have a consensus by the wider >> community. > > XMPP is also actively developed and has many free software > implementations (including some that are AGPLv3, like > ). > > If you want/need a gratis account that supports all the important > features, see . > >> Also the clients seem to decently designed. > > See above - is there something Conversations is missing versus the > Matrix client(s) for Android? > >> I'm saying all this because if we want to attract more Free >> Software users, >> like it or not we need a good presentation with good interface. >> otherwise we >> risk to fall into obscurity. >> No, Im not saying to use proprietary messaging to attract users. > > I definitely agree. However, I think we need to look at which > protocols are likely to stand the test of time. Matrix is very new, > and the server implementation(s?) is extremely resource-heavy. XMPP > has been around for over 20 years and has multiple lightweight server > implementations. > > Denver > > > _______________________________________________ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > > --=-2f2L0vS5d1RbAm/jpJcT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Conversations is badly designed. I am talking from experience trying for people to adopt it. Every other client listed on this page: [1]https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html for android is basically with design from twenty years ago. There doesn't seem to be new clients popping up. for mobile at least. In contrast Matrix [2]https://matrix.org/clients/ has a lot of new clients with active development. I checked. It does have some development. Which seems interesting considering the stagnation of clients for mobile. Its not the problem of something Conversations are missing. Although it misses a lot of stuff. Like stickers and widgets. The thing is that every client I installed had different capabilities entirely. It made sense when I read the phylosophy be hind XMPP and Matrix though. Matrix wants to be ,from my perspective, a coherent standard. One piece. XMPP is more modular. Which explains the fragmentation in the XMPP ecosystem. That''s true. It is still in heavy development. It does have though at least 4 server implementations that I know of. Some of them are lightweight. One of them by matrix.org themselves as a planeed rewrite for the slow current server. Also bear in mind that the Goverment of France, and the Goverment of Germany along with some other providers. Also Kde and Gnome have moved there. Matrix is here to stay. On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 16:27, Denver Gingerich wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 06:04:34PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: I wanted a client for Android so i searched on Google play and Fdroid but couldn't find one with acceptable design. Proprietary or otherwise. What is wrong with Conversations? [3]https://f-droid.org/app/eu.siacs.conversations [4]https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.siacs.conversations Plus I have seen that there is a huge shift to Matrix for non-tech people. IRC and XMPP seem to stay into obscurity. XMPP would have been popular by now. And what good is a system if its not popular? I don't want to message my self. Matrix is the only protocol that is actively developed, is Free Software (although not AGPL-3), and seems to have a consensus by the wider community. XMPP is also actively developed and has many free software implementations (including some that are AGPLv3, like [5]https://jmp.chat/ ). If you want/need a gratis account that supports all the important features, see [6]https://dismail.de/register.html . Also the clients seem to decently designed. See above - is there something Conversations is missing versus the Matrix client(s) for Android? I'm saying all this because if we want to attract more Free Software users, like it or not we need a good presentation with good interface. otherwise we risk to fall into obscurity. No, Im not saying to use proprietary messaging to attract users. I definitely agree. However, I think we need to look at which protocols are likely to stand the test of time. Matrix is very new, and the server implementation(s?) is extremely resource-heavy. XMPP has been around for over 20 years and has multiple lightweight server implementations. Denver [7]https://jmp.chat/ _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html 2. https://matrix.org/clients/ 3. https://f-droid.org/app/eu.siacs.conversations 4. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.siacs.conversations 5. https://jmp.chat/ 6. https://dismail.de/register.html 7. https://jmp.chat/ 8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss --=-2f2L0vS5d1RbAm/jpJcT-- --===============4984174173021196894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KbGlicmVwbGFu ZXQtZGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGlicmVwbGFuZXQtZGlzY3Vzc0BsaWJyZXBsYW5ldC5v cmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5saWJyZXBsYW5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saWJyZXBs YW5ldC1kaXNjdXNz --===============4984174173021196894==--